Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.movies.current-films Subject: Pointy Ears (was Re: Aragorn Half-elven?) References: <22680de.0401071332.111e089a@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 47 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1075074091 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:41:31 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:41:31 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: LuYQb-1410-_4-3887@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: fa827fe3 a2762cfc b4a68ae2 c9a7c514 101d3f3c Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:41:31 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140299 Quoth "Bill O'Meally" in article : > "timananda" wrote: > > Do you think Eldarion has pointy ears? > No. For my part, I would guess, "Yes, but only very slightly." > Do you think Galadriel Celeborn and Legolas do? And again, my answer would be "yes". :) (I thought the movies came pretty close to my own current concept of Elves' ears, though my image might have been even a little closer to human norms.) Most Tolkien scholars are quite aware of this debate, and know that there have been a great many arguments on both sides. Tolkien said nothing in LotR, _The Hobbit_, or any other writing of his that approached the point of publication that gave a clear answer to the question. (In fact, it's hard to see from those sources how people came up with the pointed ear idea in the first place, unless from the generic popular conception of Elves.) But the fact is that Tolkien _did_ explicitly describe the shape of his Elves' ears exactly once, in a piece of writing that dates to roughly the time that he was writing LotR. In what I believe was a late additionto the "Etymologies" of his Elvish languages, now published in _The Lost Road_, he wrote that "The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human" (This quote as printed in _The Lost Road_ used the notation "[human?]" where I have written "Human" above, indicating ambiguity in the word in question. However, the recent publication of "Addenda and Corrigenda to the _Etymologies_" in the journal _Vinyar Tengwar_ #45 removes that ambiguity.) So there you have it. Tolkien's one and only direct statement on the matter boils down to "Elves have pointed ears." In the absence of any comparably clear evidence to the contrary (and the well established ambiguity of the less direct evidence), I'd say this more or less closes the issue. You know, I thought that I'd already updated the FAQ to include this, but it looks like I haven't. D'oh! :) Steuard Jensen ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.movies.current-films References: <22680de.0401071332.111e089a@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Pointy Ears (was Re: Aragorn Half-elven?) Lines: 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 Message-ID: <%DYQb.4854$La5.4496@nwrdny01.gnilink.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:51:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.201.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1075074683 141.153.201.80 (Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:51:23 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:51:23 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140303 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:LuYQb.8$_4.3961@news.uchicago.edu... > (This quote as printed in _The Lost Road_ used the notation "[human?]" > where I have written "Human" above, indicating ambiguity in the word > in question. However, the recent publication of "Addenda and > Corrigenda to the _Etymologies_" in the journal _Vinyar Tengwar_ #45 > removes that ambiguity.) Really? I ran over to my VT stacks, but it seems my most recent is #44. I'll have to be picking that one up. It had seemed fairly obvious for quite some time, but it is nice to have it finally confirmed. :] Hmm... of course I suppose this means I'd have to update my elf-ears essay. Heh. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.movies.current-films Subject: Re: Pointy Ears (was Re: Aragorn Half-elven?) References: <22680de.0401071332.111e089a@posting.google.com> <%DYQb.4854$La5.4496@nwrdny01.gnilink.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 33 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1075135470 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:44:30 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:44:30 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: OtbRb-4058-_4-7394@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: d9de3afc a0e0de58 9b40c87b fdfd0f75 e1352a35 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:44:30 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news.cc.uic.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140442 Quoth "Conrad B Dunkerson" in article <%DYQb.4854$La5.4496@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>: > "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > (This quote as printed in _The Lost Road_ used the notation > > "[human?]" where I have written "Human" above, indicating > > ambiguity in the word in question. However, the recent > > publication of "Addenda and Corrigenda to the _Etymologies_" in > > the journal _Vinyar Tengwar_ #45 removes that ambiguity.) > It had seemed fairly obvious for quite some time, but it is nice to > have it finally confirmed. :] It certainly is. (Like you, I've been more or less convinced of the pointy ear position for a while, but this really does reduce the apparent ambiguity by another very big step.) And now that this has been published in VT, I figure it's perfectly safe to mention that I've seen a quality reproduction of the manuscript myself. There really is nothing else that this word could be, even to my eye, unpracticed at deciphering Tolkien's handwriting. It was clearly "Hu??n", where the "??" represented a series of low bumps long enough for two or three letters (and since those letters looked like low bumps, that limits the possible letters quite a bit). To someone with practice in reading Tolkien's manuscripts, I expect there would be almost no doubt at all. (In Christopher Tolkien's defense, Carl Hostetter tells me that a good photocopy actually makes some features of the original manuscripts clearer and easier to read.) > Hmm... of course I suppose this means I'd have to update my elf-ears > essay. Heh. Yay! :) Steuard Jensen ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22680de.0401071332.111e089a@posting.google.com> <%DYQb.4854$La5.4496@nwrdny01.gnilink.net> Subject: Re: Pointy Ears (was Re: Aragorn Half-elven?) Lines: 30 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 Message-ID: <1hXRb.292$j8.50@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:07:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.89.40.246 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1075331261 138.89.40.246 (Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:07:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:07:41 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141020 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:OtbRb.14$_4.7278@news.uchicago.edu... > It certainly is. (Like you, I've been more or less convinced of the > pointy ear position for a while, but this really does reduce the > apparent ambiguity by another very big step.) Oh, I was just going with the word 'human' finally being settled. I actually never thought the 'ambiguity' about that word was particularly relevant to the ear debate overall... whatever the final word was, the text always still said that "Quendian ears were more pointed...". In fact, I don't think this has much impact on the 'elven ears' debate at all. It clears up one point of minor objection, but all the others remain... I've always felt that the most (only?) serious objection is 'Tolkien could have changed his mind'. > And now that this has been published in VT, I figure it's perfectly > safe to mention that I've seen a quality reproduction of the > manuscript myself. There really is nothing else that this word could > be, even to my eye, unpracticed at deciphering Tolkien's handwriting. > It was clearly "Hu??n", where the "??" represented a series of low > bumps long enough for two or three letters (and since those letters > looked like low bumps, that limits the possible letters quite a bit). Yeah, I looked for an electronic image of 'the three bumps' several times when the debate was raging. I agree that 'human' was the only plausible explanation... which is probably why Christopher Tolkien said all along that it was 'better than a guess'. ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.movies.current-films Subject: Re: Pointy Ears (was Re: Aragorn Half-elven?) Date: 31 Jan 2004 23:10:50 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <22680de.0401071332.111e089a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.net (68.170.200.65) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1075590650 28814973 68.170.200.65 ([137949]) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141545 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in news:LuYQb.8$_4.3961@news.uchicago.edu: > But the fact is that Tolkien _did_ explicitly describe the > shape of his Elves' ears exactly once, in a piece of writing > that dates to roughly the time that he was writing LotR. In > what I believe was a late additionto the "Etymologies" of his > Elvish languages, now published in _The Lost Road_, he wrote > that > > "The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than > Human" > I thought he also alluded to the elves having pointy ears in his description of Hobbits, in one of his letters (#27) to Houghton Mifflin : "I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of "fairy" rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and "elvish"; hair short and curling." -- mc ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.movies.current-films References: <22680de.0401071332.111e089a@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Pointy Ears (was Re: Aragorn Half-elven?) Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:38:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.147.222 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1075765094 141.153.147.222 (Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:38:14 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:38:14 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141919 "TeaLady (Mari C.)" wrote in message news:Xns9481B8F66B14Bspblt@130.133.1.4... > I thought he also alluded to the elves having pointy ears in his > description of Hobbits, in one of his letters (#27) to Houghton > Mifflin : I agree. However, it is often argued that he might have been talking about Elves other than his own in that letter. I don't put much stock in that because even if true (which it may well be) it still shows that he was aware of the feature and in fact was there mentioning it in his instructions to people who would be doing illustrations for The Hobbit. Not something he should be bringing up if he was against the idea of his Elves having pointed ears. ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.movies.current-films Subject: Re: Pointy Ears (was Re: Aragorn Half-elven?) Date: 3 Feb 2004 18:25:34 -0500 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <22680de.0401071332.111e089a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1075850734 29989 166.84.1.3 (3 Feb 2004 23:25:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:25:34 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news0.de.colt.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:142088 In article , Conrad B Dunkerson wrote: >"TeaLady (Mari C.)" wrote in message >news:Xns9481B8F66B14Bspblt@130.133.1.4... >> I thought he also alluded to the elves having pointy ears in his >> description of Hobbits, in one of his letters (#27) to Houghton >> Mifflin : >I agree. However, it is often argued that he might have been talking >about Elves other than his own in that letter. I don't put much stock in >that because even if true (which it may well be) it still shows that he >was aware of the feature and in fact was there mentioning it in his >instructions to people who would be doing illustrations for The Hobbit. >Not something he should be bringing up if he was against the idea of his >Elves having pointed ears. I agree also. At the very least I think this shows that the idea of pointy-eared Elves didn't horrify him. And if he didn't have strong feeling about the matter then why should we? -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com