Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Legolas the bachelor? From: "Seymour C. Moore" Organization: United Anarchists Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:57:16 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!easynews-local!news.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138245 By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of the War of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? According to the Essay "Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in Morgoth's Ring, "The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year". So was Legolas a rare Elf - a bachelor? If he had a wife it would be weird that it is nowhere mentioned. Or was he perhaps very young, 50 years and just become an adult? C ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:38:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.164.139 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1074335912 82.43.164.139 (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:38:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:38:32 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138255 "Seymour C. Moore" wrote > By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of the War > of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? See the film for an explanation. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? From: "Seymour C. Moore" References: Organization: United Anarchists Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:28:31 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!easynews-local!news.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138266 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in news:Ig8Ob.1755 $Jf6.18213109@news-text.cableinet.net: > "Seymour C. Moore" wrote > >> By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of the > War >> of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? > > > See the film for an explanation. You mean pretty-boy fancied Aragorn? ;-) C ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:44:06 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o120.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1074347467 99207 212.205.252.120 (17 Jan 2004 13:51:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:51:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138278 "Seymour C. Moore" wrote in message news:Xns94736F8E8C5ANotvldi@140.99.99.130... > > By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of the War > of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? > > According to the Essay "Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in > Morgoth's Ring, "The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon > after their fiftieth year". > > So was Legolas a rare Elf - a bachelor? If he had a wife it would be weird > that it is nowhere mentioned. Despite these words of Tolkien, it seems actually the opposite -- all the elves we see in Tolkien's works are married only after thousands of years have passed. Elrond married when he was older than 3500 years old. Celebrian must have been about the same age. His daughter was about 2800 years old when *she* got married -- and older brothers still hadn't wed. Back in Aman people had only reached the third or so generation since Finwe in a period that lasted what, about ten thousand years? In fact so had happened in Doriath as well. Celeborn and Nimloth were Elmo's' grandchildren. Luthien and Daeron were likewise unmarried even after thousands of years had passed. Beleg and Mablung also seem unwed, even though they were atleast 500 years old. Etc. etc. In short I feel that Tolkien's statement above about the elves marrying around their 50th year really doesn't fit in with what he describes in the vast majority of his tales. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Date: 17 Jan 2004 13:46:17 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 117-moo-7.acn.waw.pl (62.121.94.117) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1074347177 13492459 62.121.94.117 ([146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: [yHC7F&Xc\\$5>7pH}cu#iLUZT"b*J:{j7Jw~04kN3]kjUr>wXTux++nkwv7uZ.sV\m*n;vd,1OSZ;GG]mCbAN}0hDo!.-U}5[Bl*=w75{'3DE"2s{^(ZjT"\/#46sM9vFVogEl%!nc>N;<|VXdcey1rYn'@uA^;Se1cSyF}h:+H+8*vO[1"~K~9ugGx^r-Wt'u<<$ Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!117-moo-7.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138277 On 17 sty 2004, "Seymour C. Moore" scribbled loosely: > > By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of the > War of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? > What acounts are that? I don't remember anything, but my memory might be dimmed. > According to the Essay "Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in > Morgoth's Ring, "The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and > soon after their fiftieth year". > > So was Legolas a rare Elf - a bachelor? If he had a wife it would be > weird that it is nowhere mentioned. > > Or was he perhaps very young, 50 years and just become an adult? I wonder if it has something to do with the fading of the Elves - given the overal sense of doom for the Firstborns, why bother finding wives and having a family anyway? In fact, I believe Legolas was of the last generation of elves born before the end of the age of Elves... (of course, it might have something to do with his 'friendship' with Gimli, but i leave that speculation to the fangirls :) -- Pradera --- The Greatest Tolkien Fan Ever(tm) Books are books, movies are movies, PJ's LotR is crap. http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/ ###### From: JXStern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Message-ID: <7dri0092856qj14k4bcmdul3ah37vd2lrb@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:16:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.126.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc03.gnilink.net 1074359799 4.62.126.216 (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:16:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:16:39 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc03.gnilink.net.POSTED!4fcf30b0!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138301 On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:44:06 +0200, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: >Despite these words of Tolkien, it seems actually the opposite -- all the >elves we see in Tolkien's works are married only after thousands of years >have passed. And how old was Arwen at the time of the story? J. ###### From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7dri0092856qj14k4bcmdul3ah37vd2lrb@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Lines: 8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:37:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.169.186 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1074361060 141.153.169.186 (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:37:40 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:37:40 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138303 "JXStern" wrote in message news:7dri0092856qj14k4bcmdul3ah37vd2lrb@4ax.com... > And how old was Arwen at the time of the story? Nearly 3000 years. She was born in 241 Third Age and most of the action in LotR takes place in 3018-19. ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7dri0092856qj14k4bcmdul3ah37vd2lrb@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:18:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1074374284 162.83.166.216 (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:18:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:18:04 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!feed2.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138339 "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in message news:EpeOb.4679$np6.75@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... > "JXStern" wrote in message > news:7dri0092856qj14k4bcmdul3ah37vd2lrb@4ax.com... > > > And how old was Arwen at the time of the story? > > Nearly 3000 years. She was born in 241 Third Age and most of the action in > LotR takes place in 3018-19. > Lintallė, Lantallė Arwen Undomiel Fifty years worked on her Wedding arrangements; Learned late that Aragorn Overly fond was of Mythopoetically Lengthy engagements. -- John Yohalem ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (Calvin Rice) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Date: 17 Jan 2004 15:17:16 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 11 Message-ID: <22680de.0401171517.38a4ae7f@posting.google.com> References: <7dri0092856qj14k4bcmdul3ah37vd2lrb@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.23.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1074381437 14782 127.0.0.1 (17 Jan 2004 23:17:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 23:17:17 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138368 "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in message news:... > "JXStern" wrote in message > news:7dri0092856qj14k4bcmdul3ah37vd2lrb@4ax.com... > > And how old was Arwen at the time of the story? > Nearly 3000 years. She was born in 241 Third Age and most of the action in > LotR takes place in 3018-19. Since Arwen was 2778, it might be understandable that 24 year old Eowyn thought she had a chance with 88 year old Aragorn. -cr ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:43:02 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <7dri0092856qj14k4bcmdul3ah37vd2lrb@4ax.com> <22680de.0401171517.38a4ae7f@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c102.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138383 In article <22680de.0401171517.38a4ae7f@posting.google.com>, oscwr@netscape.net (Calvin Rice) wrote: > "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in message news:... > > "JXStern" wrote in message > > news:7dri0092856qj14k4bcmdul3ah37vd2lrb@4ax.com... > > > And how old was Arwen at the time of the story? > > Nearly 3000 years. She was born in 241 Third Age and most of the action in > > LotR takes place in 3018-19. > > Since Arwen was 2778, it might be understandable that 24 year old Eowyn > thought she had a chance with 88 year old Aragorn. the next version of the lotr ring will star demi moore as arwen ###### Message-ID: <4009DC73.41CC76DE@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,fr-CA,fr,fr-FR,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 01:07:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.59.180.6 X-Trace: clgrps13 1074388028 142.59.180.6 (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:07:08 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:07:08 MST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!clgrps13.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138396 Pradera wrote: > > On 17 sty 2004, "Seymour C. Moore" scribbled loosely: > > > > > By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of the > > War of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? > > > > What acounts are that? I don't remember anything, but my memory might be > dimmed. > I don't know about a thousand years, but IIRC Legolas says something to the effect that he's seen the entire life-cycle of an oak-tree, which must be at least a few centuries. Sorry, I don't remember where in the story he makes the remark. -- Odysseus ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Lines: 43 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <2QlOb.2617$zZ6.31529120@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:03:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.164.139 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1074391422 82.43.164.139 (Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:03:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:03:42 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138412 "Pradera" wrote in message news:Xns9473963E3915Apraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4... > On 17 sty 2004, "Seymour C. Moore" scribbled loosely: > > > > By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of the > > War of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? > > What acounts are that? I don't remember anything, but my memory might be > dimmed. Dimmed memory for 'The Greatest Tolkien Fan Ever'? Never! :-) From 'The King of the Golden Hall' (The Two Towers), on the approach to Edoras, Legolas talks to Aragorn about the building of Meduseld: " 'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then', said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.' " OK, it is not 1000 years, but I assume that this is what the OP meant. Legolas could be talking in generalities, but most people assume he is including himself in the 'us' bit. Legolas also talked about seeing trees grow from seed to ruinous old age, but my memory dims too, and I can't remember where this quote is from. Search Google Groups for "how old is legolas" and look at the 25-article thread. > (of course, it might have something to do with his 'friendship' with > Gimli, but i leave that speculation to the fangirls :) No, no! Not Gimli. Film-Aragorn. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "G. M. Watson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 01:39:03 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <100kl1ldajts813@corp.supernews.com> X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 216.113.216.12 References: <4009DC73.41CC76DE@yahoo-dot.ca> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 58 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138479 ---------- In article <4009DC73.41CC76DE@yahoo-dot.ca>, Odysseus wrote: > Pradera wrote: >> >> On 17 sty 2004, "Seymour C. Moore" scribbled loosely: >> >> > >> > By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of the >> > War of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? >> > >> >> What acounts are that? I don't remember anything, but my memory might be >> dimmed. >> > I don't know about a thousand years, but IIRC Legolas says something > to the effect that he's seen the entire life-cycle of an oak-tree, > which must be at least a few centuries. Sorry, I don't remember where > in the story he makes the remark. > > -- > Odysseus From Chapter 8, Book 3 (The Two Towers), "The Road to Isengard": The Rohirrim et. al., fresh from victory at the Hornburg, are riding to Isengard when they pass through a large "wood" of Huorns. Legolas observes to Gimli: "These are the strangest trees that ever I saw, and I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age..." The question then arises, I suppose: In referring to his multiple personal observations of the life-cycles of oaks, did Legolas mean that said life-cycles were observed concurrently, or sequentially? I have always assumed that he meant the latter, and that therefore Legolas must be very old indeed, as he himself implies on a number of occasions. An example occurs earlier, when Legolas, Gandalf, Gimli and Aragorn arrive at Edoras. Observing the barrows of the kings of Rohan, Aragorn observes: "Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right. Many long lives of men it is since the golden hall was built." To which Legolas responds: "Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood my home since then, and but a little while does that seem to us." So, yeah; no spring chicken is our favorite Elf; that's very clear. Exactly how much of an aging bachelor he may be, though, is anyone's guess. I suppose it was concern re the potential for over-population that led Middle-Earth's immortals to restrict their rate of reproduction. Otherwise, after about five hundred years, Mirkwood would be simply overrun by Thranduil's progeny, with all the predictable resultant social problems. Elves would likely have had to invent high-rise apartment developments just to ensure that everyone had a place to live.The forest would have long since been clearcut to make room for them all. Dol Guldur would have been surrounded by Miesian glass towers, and neighborhood committees would be formed to explore ways of expelling the Nazgul from the neighborhood as undesirable elements and a bad influence on young Elves. And Eru knows what all that overdevelopment and densification would do to the overall standard of living... GMW ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Date: 18 Jan 2004 10:48:18 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <2QlOb.2617$zZ6.31529120@news-text.cableinet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 117-moo-7.acn.waw.pl (62.121.94.117) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1074422898 17479938 62.121.94.117 ([146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: [yHC7F&Xc\\$5>7pH}cu#iLUZT"b*J:{j7Jw~04kN3]kjUr>wXTux++nkwv7uZ.sV\m*n;vd,1OSZ;GG]mCbAN}0hDo!.-U}5[Bl*=w75{'3DE"2s{^(ZjT"\/#46sM9vFVogEl%!nc>N;<|VXdcey1rYn'@uA^;Se1cSyF}h:+H+8*vO[1"~K~9ugGx^r-Wt'u<<$ Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!117-moo-7.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138482 On 18 sty 2004, "Christopher Kreuzer" scribbled loosely: > "Pradera" wrote in message > news:Xns9473963E3915Apraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4... >> On 17 sty 2004, "Seymour C. Moore" scribbled loosely: >> (of course, it might have something to do with his 'friendship' with >> Gimli, but i leave that speculation to the fangirls :) > > > No, no! Not Gimli. Film-Aragorn. > Even though it was I who coined: 'There once was an elf of Mirkwood/Who loved not the gender he should/He chose to adore/The king of Gondor/This gayest of elves of Mirkwood' I believe we should stay to the book facts, not some movie invention. Gimli, not Aragorn. -- Pradera --- The Greatest Tolkien Fan Ever(tm) Books are books, movies are movies, PJ's LotR is crap. http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/ ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:01:26 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <2QlOb.2617$zZ6.31529120@news-text.cableinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138541 It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien in article <2QlOb.2617$zZ6.31529120@news-text.cableinet.net>: >" 'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home >since then', said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to >us.' " > >OK, it is not 1000 years, but I assume that this is what the OP meant. >Legolas could be talking in generalities, but most people assume he is >including himself in the 'us' bit. Legolas also talked about seeing >trees grow from seed to ruinous old age, but my memory dims too, and I >can't remember where this quote is from. He also refers to visiting Fangorn making him feel young again, as he had not felt since associating with "you children". Since Aragorn was nearly a century old at that point, Legolas would have to have been at least several centuries old to have used that expression. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mhaines@io.nanc.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 23 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:30:33 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.111.21 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1074475837 148.63.111.21 (Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:30:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:30:37 CST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138642 In article , notv@l.id says... > > Or was he perhaps very young, 50 years and just become an adult? While he is likely young for an Elf, he calls Aragorn (87) and Gimli (I forget his age off-hand) "you children", so he's obviously not younger than they are. Also, he makes a comment to the effect of seeing many oaks grow from acorn to ruinous age. Watching even one would make him approximately 500 years old. Michelle Flutist -- Drift on a river, That flows through my arms Drift as I'm singing to you I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm And holding you, I'm smiling, too Here in my arms, Safe from all harm Holding you, I'm smiling, too -- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99] ###### Lines: 48 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 19 Jan 2004 20:05:04 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m02) Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Message-ID: <20040119150504.00545.00003705@mb-m02.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:138829 In article , "Aris Katsaris" writes: >"Seymour C. Moore" wrote in message >news:Xns94736F8E8C5ANotvldi@140.99.99.130... >> >> By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of the War >> of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? >> >> According to the Essay "Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in >> Morgoth's Ring, "The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon >> after their fiftieth year". >> >> So was Legolas a rare Elf - a bachelor? If he had a wife it would be weird >> that it is nowhere mentioned. > >Despite these words of Tolkien, it seems actually the opposite -- all the >elves we see in Tolkien's works are married only after thousands of years >have passed. > >Elrond married when he was older than 3500 years old. Celebrian must >have been about the same age. His daughter was about 2800 years old >when *she* got married -- and older brothers still hadn't wed. Back in >Aman people had only reached the third or so generation since Finwe >in a period that lasted what, about ten thousand years? In fact so >had happened in Doriath as well. Celeborn and Nimloth were >Elmo's' grandchildren. > >Luthien and Daeron were likewise unmarried even after thousands of >years had passed. Beleg and Mablung also seem unwed, even though >they were atleast 500 years old. Etc. etc. > >In short I feel that Tolkien's statement above about the elves marrying >around their 50th year really doesn't fit in with what he describes in >the vast majority of his tales. > Law and Customs was describing the period of peace in Aman before everything went to hell in a handbasket. From the Revolt of the Noldor onwards, I don't think everythign in Law and Customs is applicable. Russ ---------------------- "Ah yes - we must mollify angry fanatics who seek our destruction because otherwise they might get mad and seek our destruction." - Ann Coulter 9/26/2002 ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? From: "Seymour C. Moore" References: <20040119150504.00545.00003705@mb-m02.aol.com> Organization: United Anarchists Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:38:37 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!easynews-local!news.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:139005 mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) wrote in news:20040119150504.00545.00003705@mb-m02.aol.com: > In article , "Aris Katsaris" > writes: > >>"Seymour C. Moore" wrote in message >>news:Xns94736F8E8C5ANotvldi@140.99.99.130... >>> >>> By all accounts Legolas was at least 1000 years old by the time of >>> the War of the Ring. So why wasn't he married? >>> >>> According to the Essay "Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in >>> Morgoth's Ring, "The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth >>> and soon after their fiftieth year". >>> >>> So was Legolas a rare Elf - a bachelor? If he had a wife it would be >>> weird that it is nowhere mentioned. >> >>Despite these words of Tolkien, it seems actually the opposite -- all >>the elves we see in Tolkien's works are married only after thousands >>of years have passed. >> >>Elrond married when he was older than 3500 years old. Celebrian must >>have been about the same age. His daughter was about 2800 years old >>when *she* got married -- and older brothers still hadn't wed. Back in >>Aman people had only reached the third or so generation since Finwe >>in a period that lasted what, about ten thousand years? In fact so >>had happened in Doriath as well. Celeborn and Nimloth were >>Elmo's' grandchildren. >> >>Luthien and Daeron were likewise unmarried even after thousands of >>years had passed. Beleg and Mablung also seem unwed, even though >>they were atleast 500 years old. Etc. etc. >> >>In short I feel that Tolkien's statement above about the elves >>marrying around their 50th year really doesn't fit in with what he >>describes in the vast majority of his tales. >> > > Law and Customs was describing the period of peace in Aman before > everything went to hell in a handbasket. From the Revolt of the > Noldor onwards, I don't think everythign in Law and Customs is > applicable. That makes sense. Someone mentioned that Bilbo/Frodo's Mithril Coat was made for an Elf Prince. If an Elf who can live thousands of years, but is is of child/hobbit size only for less than 50 years, that would be a horribly waste of good Mithril. ;-) C ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:42:44 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20040119150504.00545.00003705@mb-m02.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!oleane.net!oleane!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:139053 It seems "Seymour C. Moore" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: [massive over-quoting snipped -- hint, hint] >Someone mentioned that Bilbo/Frodo's Mithril Coat was made for an Elf >Prince. If an Elf who can live thousands of years, but is is of >child/hobbit size only for less than 50 years, that would be a horribly >waste of good Mithril. ;-) One word: hand-me-downs. :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Jeff Blanks Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Legolas the bachelor? References: <4009DC73.41CC76DE@yahoo-dot.ca> <100kl1ldajts813@corp.supernews.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 10 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 05:12:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.69.91.171 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net 1074661962 207.69.91.171 (Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:12:42 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:12:42 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!34dcce6c!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:139203 "G. M. Watson" wrote: > Dol Guldur would have been > surrounded by Miesian glass towers, Hey! Nothing says "almost nothing" like a Lorien-style *talan*! ;-) -- "There is no excellent beauty which hath not some strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon