From: enkidu@netzero.net (Genkidu) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: 6 Jan 2004 07:27:26 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.204.133.208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1073402846 3770 127.0.0.1 (6 Jan 2004 15:27:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:27:26 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136360 Question: When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from marrying Arwen? The reason why I ask is the parallelism between Aragorn/Arwen and Beren/Luthien is apparent. But it appeared to me that the parallelism extends to the fathers as well. Both requiring a (seemingly) impossible task before they give up their daughters. Thingol: you can marry my daughter if you ... retrieve a similaril from Morgoth s crown. Elrond: you can marry my daughter if you ... defeat Sauron and are crowned king of Arnor and Gondor. What do you think? MNB ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@meganetnews.com Message-ID: <576acd36a5e49563132488ba2ed0953e@news.meganetnews.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:09:24 GMT Lines: 52 From: Eglantine Banks Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.34!cyclone.swbell.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.meganetnews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136376 >When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of >the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to >defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from >marrying Arwen? Good topic. I don't think it was for either reason. I think Elrond, with his Half-Elven ancestry, was okay with the idea of his daughter marrying a mortal. It would have been hypocritical of him to absolutely oppose such a marriage simply because the man was a mortal, when his own ancestry included such a marriage. However, I think that Elrond wasn't okay with his daughter marrying *any* mortal. I think he believed that the only mortal "good enough" for her would be the King of Arnor and Gondor. In other words, I take Elrond's statement at face value. Now, it may have occurred to him that motivating Aragorn to become more active in the fight against Sauron (or, more generically, the fight against evil) would be a good thing, but I don't believe this was his primary motivation. - Eglantine Banks (email address above is a phony. To respond write to joanne@evilpicturelake.com after removing evil) >Question: > >When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of >the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to >defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from >marrying Arwen? > >The reason why I ask is the parallelism between Aragorn/Arwen and >Beren/Luthien is apparent. But it appeared to me that the parallelism >extends to the fathers as well. Both requiring a (seemingly) >impossible task before they give up their daughters. > >Thingol: you can marry my daughter if you ... retrieve a similaril >from Morgoth >s crown. >Elrond: you can marry my daughter if you ... defeat Sauron and are >crowned king of Arnor and Gondor. > >What do you think? > >MNB ###### Reply-To: "teepee" From: "teepee" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <576acd36a5e49563132488ba2ed0953e@news.meganetnews.com> Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:10:30 -0000 Organization: home X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3ffaf982$0$61061$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.3.250.182 X-Trace: 1073412485 mercury.nildram.net 61061 62.3.250.182 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!lon1-news.nildram.net!195.149.20.147.MISMATCH!mercury.nildram.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136388 "Eglantine Banks" wrote > >When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of > >the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to > >defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from > >marrying Arwen? > > Good topic. > > I don't think it was for either reason. > > I think Elrond, with his Half-Elven ancestry, was okay with the idea > of his daughter marrying a mortal. It would have been hypocritical of > him to absolutely oppose such a marriage simply because the man was a > mortal, when his own ancestry included such a marriage. I think he objected more to his daughter dieing than anything else. A very big difference is that Thingol cursed himself and his land with that demand, whereas Elrond avoided that fate. Is it possible that Elrond knew he would be invoking powerful forces again by making such a demand again, and such was his intent? No, I think it's just a recurring myth in all fairy tales - to marry the King's daughter you have to go on a quest. ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:21:57 -0500 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1073416997 3957 10.121.40.95 (6 Jan 2004 19:23:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:23:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136403 "Genkidu" wrote > When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of > the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to > defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from > marrying Arwen? I think he was trying to keep his daughter from becoming a widow to a forgotten nobody of a Ranger from the Wild, and seeing that she only marries someone who has proved his worthiness. > The reason why I ask is the parallelism between Aragorn/Arwen and > Beren/Luthien is apparent. But it appeared to me that the parallelism > extends to the fathers as well. Both requiring a (seemingly) > impossible task before they give up their daughters. > > Thingol: you can marry my daughter if you ... retrieve a similaril > from Morgoth > s crown. > Elrond: you can marry my daughter if you ... defeat Sauron and are > crowned king of Arnor and Gondor. > > What do you think? I think the parallel fits very well, but the differences are instructive. I think Elrond is, in this role, showing us Thingol as he should have been. Just as Galadriel completes her redemption and contrition with her act of refusing the Ring, I think Elrond is closing the circle and completing a cycle (albeit one of beauty, glory, and wonder as well as grief) that started with Thingol's pride and cruelty towards Beren. Thingol did, of course, repent of his pride, but his repentance could not be entirely fulfilled until the drama was, in a sense, replayed, and this time gotten right, with Elrond, Aragorn, and Arwen. Here's where I see the differences: Thingol is acting purely out of pride and selfishness: he doesn't want to lose his daughter, and doesn't think Beren is good enough for her regardless of what she thinks. Elrond is thinking of his daughter and of the Free Peoples: he doesn't want her to forsake immortality only to be widowed in a year or ten, and doesn't want to turn Aragorn aside from his destiny. Thingol set a task which would benefit only himself: "Recover a silmaril and bring it to me." Elrond set a task which would benefit everyone. Thingol set a task he believed to be impossible, and assumed Beren would fail. Elrond set a task he believed to be very difficult, but for which he, Gandalf, and Aragorn knew they must keep hope alive. Ultimately, Thingol's choice of tasks was rooted in malice, and ended in his own death. Elrond's was rooted in love and hope, and ended in personal sorrow for him, but also in the fulfillment of that hope. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration@mindspring.com ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 12:58:23 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <576acd36a5e49563132488ba2ed0953e@news.meganetnews.com> <3ffaf982$0$61061$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c126.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136424 In article <3ffaf982$0$61061$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net>, "teepee" wrote: > "Eglantine Banks" wrote > > > >When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of > > >the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to > > >defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from > > >marrying Arwen? jrrt did repeat some ideas from the simlmarillion which wasnt printed in his life > > I think Elrond, with his Half-Elven ancestry, was okay with the idea > > of his daughter marrying a mortal. It would have been hypocritical of > > him to absolutely oppose such a marriage simply because the man was a > > mortal, when his own ancestry included such a marriage. > > I think he objected more to his daughter dieing than anything else. he didnt object so much as think arwen was making a mistake but in the end accepted that as her decision from his point of view she was giving up a great deal and it was fitting the aragorn replace it with some other big deal rather than just living out a few decades as cheiftains bride in the north ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:05:44 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <576acd36a5e49563132488ba2ed0953e@news.meganetnews.com> <3ffaf982$0$61061$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u199.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1073423563 92858 62.103.251.199 (6 Jan 2004 21:12:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:12:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136428 "cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges" wrote in message news:mair_fheal-0601041258240001@c126.ppp.tsoft.com... > In article <3ffaf982$0$61061$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net>, "teepee" > wrote: > > > "Eglantine Banks" wrote > > > > > >When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of > > > >the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to > > > >defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from > > > >marrying Arwen? > > jrrt did repeat some ideas from the simlmarillion > which wasnt printed in his life The story of Beren and Luthien is described in LOTR, and the parallel (not "repetition" really) is quite intentional. Aris Katsaris ###### From: mister_sharkey@hotmail.com (Mister Sharkey) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: 6 Jan 2004 13:45:26 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.122.148.131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1073425527 30998 127.0.0.1 (6 Jan 2004 21:45:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:45:27 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews2.google.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136440 enkidu@netzero.net (Genkidu) wrote in message news:<3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com>... > The reason why I ask is the parallelism between Aragorn/Arwen and > Beren/Luthien is apparent. But it appeared to me that the parallelism > extends to the fathers as well. Both requiring a (seemingly) > impossible task before they give up their daughters. > > Thingol: you can marry my daughter if you ... retrieve a similaril > from Morgoth's crown. > Elrond: you can marry my daughter if you ... defeat Sauron and are > crowned king of Arnor and Gondor. It's almost certain that Elrond was aware he was mimicking the words of his great-great-grandfather (the lineage goes Thingol > Luthien > Dior > Elwing > Elrond). But the question is, did Elrond believe his request to be impossible, as Thingol thought his to be, or merely a great achievement that Aragorn would have to accomplish? ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:47:54 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136441 It seems "Genkidu" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien in article <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com>: >Thingol: you can marry my daughter if you ... retrieve a similaril >from Morgoth's crown. >Elrond: you can marry my daughter if you ... defeat Sauron and are >crowned king of Arnor and Gondor. I think you have to look at the motivations. Aragorn was like a son to Elrond: he'd been brought up in Elrond's house. And Elrond helped Aragorn with his assigned task. Furthermore, Elrond himself was dedicated to defeating Sauron. By contrast, Beren was a stranger to Thingol when Lúthien took him home to meet the parents. Thingol named his price as he might have said "build a ladder to the moon" or any other clearly impossible task. His purpose was to get Beren killed without doing the deed himself, since he had sworn not to. So I think there is some element of parallel, but you can't push it very far. Perhaps Elrond had learned from the history of his great- grandmother(1) Lúthien and was determined not to make the same mistakes as a father. (1) I hope I'm counting right: Elwing was Elrond's mother, Dior was his grandfather, and Lúthien was his great-grandmother. Yet I have the nagging feeling that I'm skipping a generation. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:49:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.159.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1073429347 162.84.159.15 (Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:49:07 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:49:07 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!news-xfer.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136463 "Genkidu" wrote in message news:3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com... > Question: > > When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of > the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to > defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from > marrying Arwen? > > The reason why I ask is the parallelism between Aragorn/Arwen and > Beren/Luthien is apparent. But it appeared to me that the parallelism > extends to the fathers as well. Both requiring a (seemingly) > impossible task before they give up their daughters. The parallel is there, and Elrond certainly knew it as well as anyone. But the differences are greater than the similarities: For one thing, Aragorn was no stranger barging in, but Elrond's beloved foster son. Too, Aragorn really was the now-or-never chance to restore the kingdoms of the Dunedain, and Elrond believed in that cause. I think he had every right to forbid Aragorn to doom Arwen to the rather sordid, hole-in-the-corner refugee existence of the brides of the Chieftains, to expect him to give her a throne or nothing. The reunion of the two branches of the Halfelven was either of world-shaking significance or not. If not, he could count his own preference for her continued company as equal to or greater than Aragorn's desires. I'm not sure either Aragorn or Arwen would have disagreed with his reasoning. They certainly waited patiently enough to achieve it. Tsar Parmathule ###### Message-ID: <3FFB3BE7.C63307BB@acm.org> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:51:22 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.242 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1073429432 7665 207.199.164.242 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136464 Genkidu wrote: > > Question: > > When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of > the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to > defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from > marrying Arwen? Excellent question. I think it shows Elrond as possibly the most complicated character in LOTR. There is an element here of saving Arwen from a match Elrond thinks is bad for her. That competes with his love for Aragorn and his opinions about the task of defeating Sauron. Elrond knows Aragorn will only achieve the Kingship if Sauron is also gone. I think there's also an element of keeping first things first. A marriage with the King-to-be would distract Aragorn - his new marriage would need attention. Elrond's words may be interepreted as "As soon as you've achieved the throne, then it will be time to marry." This passage is evidence that Elrond is among the Wise at a level Thingol was not. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:22:24 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b150.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1073438957 15263 212.205.219.150 (7 Jan 2004 01:29:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:29:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136496 "Mister Sharkey" wrote in message news:a534e05b.0401061345.44d58ad@posting.google.com... > enkidu@netzero.net (Genkidu) wrote in message news:<3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com>... > > Thingol: you can marry my daughter if you ... retrieve a similaril > > from Morgoth's crown. > > Elrond: you can marry my daughter if you ... defeat Sauron and are > > crowned king of Arnor and Gondor. > > It's almost certain that Elrond was aware he was mimicking the words > of his great-great-grandfather (the lineage goes Thingol > Luthien > > Dior > Elwing > Elrond). > > But the question is, did Elrond believe his request to be impossible, > as Thingol thought his to be, or merely a great achievement that > Aragorn would have to accomplish? He named him Estel -- that should say something. :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: JXStern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Message-ID: <4qomvvgjbml774202upl57ep3g21jkaf84@4ax.com> References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:39:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.121.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1073439566 4.62.121.8 (Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:39:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:39:26 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!4fcf30b0!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136499 On 6 Jan 2004 07:27:26 -0800, enkidu@netzero.net (Genkidu) wrote: >When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of >the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to >defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from >marrying Arwen? Or was one Tolkien's first draft of the other. J. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Lines: 57 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 02:53:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.164.139 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1073444006 82.43.164.139 (Wed, 07 Jan 2004 02:53:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 02:53:26 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136521 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote > I think [Elrond] had every right to forbid Aragorn to doom Arwen to the > rather sordid, hole-in-the-corner refugee existence of the brides of the > Chieftains, to expect him to give her a throne or nothing. The reunion of > the two branches of the Halfelven was either of world-shaking significance > or not. If not, he could count his own preference for her continued company > as equal to or greater than Aragorn's desires. > I'm not sure either Aragorn or Arwen would have disagreed with his > reasoning. They certainly waited patiently enough to achieve it. Um. They were meant to be in love weren't they? I like to think that even if Aragorn and Frodo had failed, then Arwen would still have wanted to marry Aragorn. Seems a bit less than committed otherwise. I guess you would have had a scene of Aragorn telling Arwen to go for her own sake, but then if Frodo (I mean Gollum) had failed, Aragorn would have died. OK. A few (silly) scenarios and possible answers. A) Aragorn refuses to follow his destiny and asks Arwen to elope with him. She refuses. How could he be such a worthless cad. B) Frodo destroys the Ring, but somewhere along the line Aragorn chickens out and runs back to ask Arwen to elope with him. She refuses. How could he be such a worthless cad. C) Frodo destroys the Ring but Aragorn gets killed. Arwen pines away in grief. D) Frodo and Aragorn get killed and Sauron regains the Ring. Arwen pines away in grief. E) Sauron regains the Ring but Aragorn escapes. Arwen and Aragorn marry and have short miserable lives. F) Aragorn seizes the Ring. Arwen flees ME with Elrond. G) Frodo destroys the Ring but Aragorn does not become King. Arwen marries him anyway. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:33:02 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <2avmvvoi1fa98b6h7v74er9csd1uitoblv@4ax.com> References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136528 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:21:57 -0500, "Bruce Tucker" wrote: >"Genkidu" wrote > >> When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of >> the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to >> defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from >> marrying Arwen? > >I think he was trying to keep his daughter from becoming a widow to a >forgotten nobody of a Ranger from the Wild, and seeing that she only >marries someone who has proved his worthiness. > Except that Elrond knew who Aragorn was, probably none better, and that he WASN'T a 'forgotten nobody of a Ranger from the Wild'. He was the latest lineal member of the House of the Kings of Numenor. the softrat "LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder." -- Steven Wright ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:08:53 -0600 From: "Joe" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <2avmvvoi1fa98b6h7v74er9csd1uitoblv@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:08:52 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 27 X-Trace: sv3-OgdPYAs4Jz2WouMtFDm0ZZK+I55WxrCP/0nCdBqBNF0K1CMMMzsDulPmZZwEGtBRyDpKREwvd85tlhl!Diu2Rkf20YxmyZB+0V63qGhP3Z9Ijt2VYxBWNchncakuuGyWG5dbQMY9dJyu X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136535 "the softrat" wrote in message news:2avmvvoi1fa98b6h7v74er9csd1uitoblv@4ax.com... > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:21:57 -0500, "Bruce Tucker" > wrote: > > >"Genkidu" wrote > > > >> When Elrond says he'll only allow his daughter to marry the King of > >> the Reunited Kingdom was he giving Aragorn additional motivation to > >> defeat Sauron or was he trying to find a way to keep Aragorn from > >> marrying Arwen? > > > >I think he was trying to keep his daughter from becoming a widow to a > >forgotten nobody of a Ranger from the Wild, and seeing that she only > >marries someone who has proved his worthiness. > > > Except that Elrond knew who Aragorn was, probably none better, and > that he WASN'T a 'forgotten nobody of a Ranger from the Wild'. He was > the latest lineal member of the House of the Kings of Numenor. > > the softrat Elrond knew that, but who else. Some fat innkeeper in Bree or other locals who looked down upon the Rangers. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:07:44 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b040.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1073452481 34769 212.205.219.40 (7 Jan 2004 05:14:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:14:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136542 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:GwKKb.8789$h72.87435431@news-text.cableinet.net... > "A Tsar Is Born" wrote > > > I think [Elrond] had every right to forbid Aragorn to doom Arwen to the > > rather sordid, hole-in-the-corner refugee existence of the brides of the > > Chieftains, to expect him to give her a throne or nothing. The reunion of > > the two branches of the Halfelven was either of world-shaking significance > > or not. If not, he could count his own preference for her continued > company > > as equal to or greater than Aragorn's desires. > > I'm not sure either Aragorn or Arwen would have disagreed with his > > reasoning. They certainly waited patiently enough to achieve it. > > Um. They were meant to be in love weren't they? I like to think that even if > Aragorn and Frodo had failed, then Arwen would still have wanted to marry > Aragorn. If Aragorn had failed, he would be dead. IIRC, Elrond told Aragorn that he wouldn't marry *any* woman until it was all resolved -- and there was pretty much no resolution possible except to fall into oblivion, or to rise to the High Kingship of Gondor and Arnor. > C) Frodo destroys the Ring but Aragorn gets killed. > > Arwen pines away in grief. And possibly still chooses mortality, to be with him after death. > D) Frodo and Aragorn get killed and Sauron regains the Ring. > > Arwen pines away in grief. In this situation I imagine Arwen still working with her father and brothers for the survival of what remains of her people, rather than fading -- but it would be a brief life, if she refused to leave Middle- earth, as would again be likely... > G) Frodo destroys the Ring but Aragorn does not become King. > > Arwen marries him anyway. True. But I somehow don't think this was a possibility -- Elrond's foresight seems to have boiled it down to two possible outcomes, either death for Aragorn and an end (for all means and purposes) to the line of Isildur, or high Kingship for Aragorn and a restoration of Gondor and Arnor. Aris Katsaris ###### From: mister_sharkey@hotmail.com (Mister Sharkey) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: 6 Jan 2004 22:03:54 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.94.69.233 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1073455435 31511 127.0.0.1 (7 Jan 2004 06:03:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:03:55 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136543 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:... > "Mister Sharkey" wrote in message > news:a534e05b.0401061345.44d58ad@posting.google.com... > > But the question is, did Elrond believe his request to be impossible, > > as Thingol thought his to be, or merely a great achievement that > > Aragorn would have to accomplish? > > He named him Estel -- that should say something. :-) Was it Elrond who gave him that name? I know the name was given when young Aragorn was brought to Imladris for safekeeping after his father's death, but I was unclear on whether it was Elrond or Gilraen who gave it to him. ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3FFB3BE7.C63307BB@acm.org> Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:20:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.158.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1073456438 162.84.158.169 (Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:20:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:20:38 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!ISPRIME!news.isprime.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136548 "Glenn Holliday" wrote in message news:3FFB3BE7.C63307BB@acm.org... > This passage is evidence that Elrond is among the Wise > at a level Thingol was not. Well -- Elrond has the benefit of knowing Thingol's story. And having learned its lessons properly. Thingol did not have the opportunity. Remember: no mortal had ever married an elf before. He was too astonished to think it through. But his wife was always wiser than he. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: enkidu@netzero.net (Genkidu) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: 7 Jan 2004 06:29:40 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com> References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.204.133.208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1073485781 31864 127.0.0.1 (7 Jan 2004 14:29:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:29:41 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136587 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:... [ s n i p ] > > G) Frodo destroys the Ring but Aragorn does not become King. > > > > Arwen marries him anyway. > > True. But I somehow don't think this was a possibility -- Elrond's > foresight seems to have boiled it down to two possible outcomes, > either death for Aragorn and an end (for all means and purposes) > to the line of Isildur, or high Kingship for Aragorn and a restoration > of Gondor and Arnor. > But Aragorn NOT becoming king is a strong possibility. If Denethor had not died or if for some reason Faramir refused to recognize Aragorn's authority (slim chance but the possibility is there), Aragorn would have been out of luck. Unless of course, he tried to take the throne by force. MNB ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:49:02 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o156.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1073487355 95226 212.205.252.156 (7 Jan 2004 14:55:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:55:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136593 "Genkidu" wrote in message news:3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com... > "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:... > > [ s n i p ] > > > G) Frodo destroys the Ring but Aragorn does not become King. > > > > > > Arwen marries him anyway. > > > > True. But I somehow don't think this was a possibility -- Elrond's > > foresight seems to have boiled it down to two possible outcomes, > > either death for Aragorn and an end (for all means and purposes) > > to the line of Isildur, or high Kingship for Aragorn and a restoration > > of Gondor and Arnor. > > But Aragorn NOT becoming king is a strong possibility. If Denethor had > not died or if for some reason Faramir refused to recognize Aragorn's > authority (slim chance but the possibility is there), Aragorn would > have been out of luck. Unless of course, he tried to take the throne > by force. I don't think that foresight works on the level of probabilities as logic alone would work -- if Elrond's foresight told him that if Sauron was defeated, then Aragorn *would* become king... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:46:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.208.212 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1073497582 162.83.208.212 (Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:46:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:46:22 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136631 "Genkidu" wrote in message news:3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com... > But Aragorn NOT becoming king is a strong possibility. If Denethor had > not died or if for some reason Faramir refused to recognize Aragorn's > authority (slim chance but the possibility is there), Aragorn would > have been out of luck. Unless of course, he tried to take the throne > by force. I don't think the Ruling Steward -- Denethor or Faramir -- would have been able to prevent a restoration; Denethor might have slowed it down. Once Aragorn appeared leading the fleet to save the city, there was hardly an anti-royalist left. Denethor's death IS awfully convenient, but I doubt he could have retained any loyalty had he refused to accept Aragorn's claims. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: NobodyMan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:01:56 EST Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:01:56 -0500 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!pc01.usenetserver.com!fe19.usenetserver.com.POSTED!83ce148c!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136707 On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:46:22 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > >"Genkidu" wrote in message >news:3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com... >> But Aragorn NOT becoming king is a strong possibility. If Denethor had >> not died or if for some reason Faramir refused to recognize Aragorn's >> authority (slim chance but the possibility is there), Aragorn would >> have been out of luck. Unless of course, he tried to take the throne >> by force. > >I don't think the Ruling Steward -- Denethor or Faramir -- would have been >able to prevent a restoration; Denethor might have slowed it down. Once >Aragorn appeared leading the fleet to save the city, there was hardly an >anti-royalist left. Denethor's death IS awfully convenient, but I doubt he >could have retained any loyalty had he refused to accept Aragorn's claims. > >Tsar Parmathule > I disagaree. Denethor would have flat out refused to honor Aragorn as King of Gondor. Precedence would have been on his side. A previous heir of the North Kingdom tried to lay claim to Gondor long before, but the Steward at that time refused the claim. He distinguished between the two sons of Elendil, and ruled that Isildur's line didn't have claim to Gondor as Isildur went off to rule the North, leaving Gondor in the hands of Elendill's other heir. That refusal stood; I believe that Denethor's would have stood as well. ###### From: Barb Beier Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:45:01 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <8ocpvvgmnm9j7113j0srts0iqmuo9d281l@4ax.com> References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3FFB3BE7.C63307BB@acm.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136717 On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:20:38 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: >Thingol did not have the opportunity. Remember: no mortal had ever married >an elf before. He was too astonished to think it through. > >But his wife was always wiser than he. As Elrond's mother-in-law was wiser than Elrond, perhaps, and more of an activist than Melian, her old friend, had been. Arwen would never have made the decision she ultimately did make, if her grandmother hadn't dressed young Aragorn up, one beautiful spring day in Lothlorien, to appear there to Arwen as "more than any kind of Men...rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West." On another track, Beren had to leave Doriath after his love of Luthien was revealed. Aragorn did set out on his travels after he and Elrond spoke, but he was always welcomed back at Rivendell and even allowed to dress up again and be close to Arwen there (in the Hall of Fire the night of the feast celebrating the victory at the Ford). Elrond was much more tolerant, probably both because of his own wisdom and love for Arwen and Aragorn and also because Galadriel's obvious interest in the matter required a certain tact of him for family reasons and because they were members of the White Council. There is definitely a sense of the circle being closed here, on many levels. Barb ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:26:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.135.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1073575580 162.84.135.11 (Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:26:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:26:20 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136786 "NobodyMan" wrote in message news:ca7pvvsuh32fp18unanc9vgn9g0uqfgaqi@4ax.com... > I disagaree. Denethor would have flat out refused to honor Aragorn as > King of Gondor. Precedence would have been on his side. A previous > heir of the North Kingdom tried to lay claim to Gondor long before, > but the Steward at that time refused the claim. He distinguished > between the two sons of Elendil, and ruled that Isildur's line didn't > have claim to Gondor as Isildur went off to rule the North, leaving > Gondor in the hands of Elendill's other heir. That refusal stood; I > believe that Denethor's would have stood as well. Nobody trumps a war hero with a legitimate claim to an unoccupied throne. Denethor would have been a minority of one. I believe Mardil consulted with the other great men of Gondor -- they would have ruled against Denethor. For one thing, unlike Mardil, they had no alternative candidate to propose. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3FFB3BE7.C63307BB@acm.org> <8ocpvvgmnm9j7113j0srts0iqmuo9d281l@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:27:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.135.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1073575672 162.84.135.11 (Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:27:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:27:52 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136787 "Barb Beier" wrote in message news:8ocpvvgmnm9j7113j0srts0iqmuo9d281l@4ax.com... > On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:20:38 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" > wrote: > > >Thingol did not have the opportunity. Remember: no mortal had ever married > >an elf before. He was too astonished to think it through. > > > >But his wife was always wiser than he. > > As Elrond's mother-in-law was wiser than Elrond, perhaps, and more of > an activist than Melian, her old friend, had been. Arwen would never > have made the decision she ultimately did make, if her grandmother > hadn't dressed young Aragorn up, one beautiful spring day in > Lothlorien, to appear there to Arwen as "more than any kind of > Men...rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West." > > On another track, Beren had to leave Doriath after his love of Luthien > was revealed. Aragorn did set out on his travels after he and Elrond > spoke, but he was always welcomed back at Rivendell and even allowed > to dress up again and be close to Arwen there (in the Hall of Fire the > night of the feast celebrating the victory at the Ford). Elrond was > much more tolerant, probably both because of his own wisdom and love > for Arwen and Aragorn and also because Galadriel's obvious interest in > the matter required a certain tact of him for family reasons and > because they were members of the White Council. There is definitely a > sense of the circle being closed here, on many levels. And who ELSE was there for her to marry? I mean, at 2800, a girl and her family start to get nervous. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: Barb Beier Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:59:11 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3FFB3BE7.C63307BB@acm.org> <8ocpvvgmnm9j7113j0srts0iqmuo9d281l@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136807 On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:27:52 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: >And who ELSE was there for her to marry? >I mean, at 2800, a girl and her family start to get nervous. :-) Actually, of those we're introduced to in the books, Glorfindel would have been perfect for her. That hunk of an Elf Lord would outclass all the potential competition (other eligible Noldor in Rivendell, perhaps Gildor, other High Elves from the Havens or elsewhere, etc). There he was at the feast that night, sitting at Elrond's right up at the head of the table; there she was, demurely seated under a canopy down the table a ways, the Lady of Rivendell herself, "queenly...and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring." It's so natural. And yet when everybody's relaxing after dinner, who's standing by her side, dressed in elven mail, but...Aragorn? A mortal? Hmmm.... Barb ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:03:57 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 67 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136826 It seems "Genkidu" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien in article <3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com>: >But Aragorn NOT becoming king is a strong possibility. If Denethor had >not died or if for some reason Faramir refused to recognize Aragorn's >authority (slim chance but the possibility is there), Aragorn would >have been out of luck. Unless of course, he tried to take the throne >by force. I hope it could have worked out better than that, without fighting factions within Gondor. Scenario 1: Aragorn has been in the forefront of fighting to save Rohan, and his friend and comrade-in-arms Éomer is now king of Gondor's only ally. Aragorn himself has conquered Umbar, Gondor's long-standing enemy, _and_ brought a fleet to save the city in its greatest extremity. The Prince of Dol Amroth, ruler of the greatest fief in the kingdom, supports Aragorn as heir to the kings long thought lost. Faramir, heir to the Steward, has some doubts but follows Gandalf's lead. "It's what my brother would have wanted," he says. (In The LR IV 5, Faramir says "If he were satisfied of Aragorn's claim as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch has not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in her wars." I like to think Faramir would remember Boromir at his noblest.) Aragorn goes about healing people, catching the imagination of the commons. I think in this situation it would be very hard for Denethor to resist. He would have the choice of gracefully succumbing to the inevitable, thus remaining number two in a peaceful kingdom, or starting a civil way in an already exhausted land, with the likelihood of losing at the end anyway. The Rohirrim would certainly have fought on Aragorn's side, probably most of Dol Amroth and many of the soldiers of the City as well. Now Aragorn himself would probably not have countenanced such a fratricidal war. But if Denethor was so far gone as to think about fighting Aragorn, he would look at things in strictly military terms because he would be unable to think that Aragorn would put the good of the kingdom above his own advantage. However, I prefer scenario 2: If Denethor had not killed himself, after the battle Gandalf would have used the Red Ring to cure him -- or, better still, perhaps Aragorn would have called him back, as he did Faramir. Then Denethor would have acted as Faramir did in reality(*), proudly welcoming the King for whom generations of his family had held the kingdom in keeping. (*) Yes, I know. What's the Middle-earth equivalent of "our time line"? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thingol and Elrond parallelism Date: 8 Jan 2004 21:53:05 GMT Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3590b84c.0401060727.730a2737@posting.google.com> <3590b84c.0401070629.56559b2e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-2117.antelope.dialup.pol.co.uk (217.134.24.69) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1073598785 8663835 217.134.24.69 ([134236]) User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!modem-2117.antelope.dialup.pol.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136884 Stan Brown wrote in news:MPG.1a6773a52e4fbe9b98bba7@news.odyssey.net: > > However, I prefer scenario 2: > > If Denethor had not killed himself, after the battle Gandalf would > have used the Red Ring to cure him -- or, better still, perhaps > Aragorn would have called him back, as he did Faramir. Then > Denethor would have acted as Faramir did in reality(*), proudly > welcoming the King for whom generations of his family had held the > kingdom in keeping. > > (*) Yes, I know. What's the Middle-earth equivalent of "our time > line"? OTL: Original time line. ATL: Alternative time line 2TL: 2nd time line 3TL, etc. -- Cheers, ymt. Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com