From: quuxa23@yahoo.com (Gary Thompson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: General historical knowledge in ME Date: 5 Jan 2004 07:09:20 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.243.220.175 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1073315362 1911 127.0.0.1 (5 Jan 2004 15:09:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:09:22 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136135 Is there any hint, in letters or elsewhere, of how much history the average person in ME knew? Would Joe Gondor know the tale of the ring? Numenor? The tale of the Silmarils? I'm about to run a LOTR rpg campaign, and I need to know how much their characters may know when things like the Nauglamir get mentioned. Related to this is the question of religion. Would the aforementioned Mr. Gondor be able to name the Valar? What would he know of the creation of the world and of Eru? Was there still any form of worship in the mid-to-late third age? ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: General historical knowledge in ME Date: 5 Jan 2004 15:45:54 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mightymartianca@yahoo.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: tandem.alberni.net (64.141.6.11) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1073317554 5759013 64.141.6.11 ([211612]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!tandem.alberni.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136139 On 5 Jan 2004 07:09:20 -0800, Gary Thompson wrote: > Is there any hint, in letters or elsewhere, of how much history the > average person in ME knew? Would Joe Gondor know the tale of the > ring? Numenor? The tale of the Silmarils? I'm about to run a LOTR > rpg campaign, and I need to know how much their characters may know > when things like the Nauglamir get mentioned. I would imagine that the average person in Gondor would have had a little knowledge about Numenor and about the history of the wars with Sauron. I doubt that most knew about the Ring, though they might know something of the Wars of the Silmarils, particularly where it concerned the Edain. > > Related to this is the question of religion. Would the aforementioned > Mr. Gondor be able to name the Valar? Faramir certainly did. I have no reason to doubt that the average person of Gondor would have known something of the Blessed Realm. > What would he know of the > creation of the world and of Eru? Was there still any form of worship > in the mid-to-late third age? Tolkien pretty much stayed away from overt religion. None of the Dunedain would have worshiped the Valar, of course. -- Aaron Clausen tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) ###### Message-ID: <3ff9882f$0$399$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk> From: "Simon J. Rowe" Subject: Re: General historical knowledge in ME Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 15:52:15 +0000 References: User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Lines: 13 Organization: [posted via Easynet UK] NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.204.121.82 X-Trace: DXC=d`@;l]^b=_cTaM5V@I57QeooUm52K?DmbM7fA1`NBENh Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed.news.tiscali.de!easynet-monga!easynet.net!easynet-post2!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136140 Gary Thompson wrote: > Is there any hint, in letters or elsewhere, of how much history the > average person in ME knew? I've always found it interesting the amount of history that Smeagol had (The Passage of the Marshes) There was a great battle long ago, yes, so they told him when Sméagol was young, when I was young before the Precious came. It was a great battle. Tall Men with long swords, and terrible Elves, and Orcses shrieking. They fought on the plain for days and months at the Black Gates. ###### From: LITTLE LOCUS Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: General historical knowledge in ME Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:32:33 +0100 Organization: Telefonica Data Espagna Lines: 75 Message-ID: <3FF991A0.9BB91CAF@worldconquer.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 87.red-217-127-202.pooles.rima-tde.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net 1073320326 8196 217.127.202.87 (5 Jan 2004 16:32:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:32:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!newsfeed.frii.net!216.65.3.50.MISMATCH!news-out1.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!news-in-maxim.spamkiller.net!news-in.superfeed.net!nsnmpen1-lo.nuria.telefonica-data.net!nsnmrro2-lo.nuria.telefonica-data.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136145 AC wrote: > > On 5 Jan 2004 07:09:20 -0800, > Gary Thompson wrote: > > Is there any hint, in letters or elsewhere, of how much history the > > average person in ME knew? Would Joe Gondor know the tale of the > > ring? The average Joe Gondor Farmer, doubt so. Someone with some "education" (average Joe Gondor Townsperson), doubtessly yes (the whole nine-seven-three-one affair is said to be part of folklore by now). I mean, they would know that there were power rings and that Sauron had the baddest-assed one, and little more. Knowing /more/ than that, plainly not. > > Numenor? As a matter of fact, one of Gondor's daily rituals seemed to involve Numenor's rememberance at supper time. > > The tale of the Silmarils? I'm about to run a LOTR > > rpg campaign, and I need to know how much their characters may know > > when things like the Nauglamir get mentioned. > > I would imagine that the average person in Gondor would have had a little > knowledge about Numenor and about the history of the wars with Sauron. I > doubt that most knew about the Ring, But, on second thought, even Joe Average Gondor Farmer would be very familiar with the tale of Isildur's Bane ("whatever that Bane would be"), added to the existence of the Rings (note plural). We also do *know* that almost no-one had related both "legends" :) > though they might know something of the > Wars of the Silmarils, particularly where it concerned the Edain. But probably more as a "legend" than as "facts", and probably very distorted. Albeit some parts (Beren and Luthien, Turin Turambar...) would be much better-known, just like real world”s great epics (everyone knows about Troy even if isn't a Greek History expert) while others wouldn't be at all. > > Related to this is the question of religion. Would the aforementioned > > Mr. Gondor be able to name the Valar? > > Faramir certainly did. And I guess the average Gondorian would be able to name the Valar. Agreed, maybe not every Gondorian would remember every Vala and be able to repeat their list straight and backwards :) but I guess they would certainly recognice the names. > I have no reason to doubt that the average person > of Gondor would have known something of the Blessed Realm. Other than its very existance, as part of their folklore. > > What would he know of the > > creation of the world and of Eru? Was there still any form of worship > > in the mid-to-late third age? > > Tolkien pretty much stayed away from overt religion. None of the Dunedain > would have worshiped the Valar, of course. Uh... there's a very clear case of the name of the Valar being spoken in a way very similar to how someone would nowadays refer to one's God in a plea for help, "'Ware! Ware!' cried Damrod to his companion. 'May the Valar turn him aside! Mūmak! Mūmak!'" L.L. -- "We must. We can. We will". (Christopher Reeve) ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: General historical knowledge in ME Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:03:51 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 45 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136170 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Gary Thompson wrote: >Is there any hint, in letters or elsewhere, of how much history the >average person in ME knew? Would Joe Gondor know the tale of the >ring? Numenor? The tale of the Silmarils? We can take it that many Gondorians would know of the Silmarils. Sam clearly did, and we can set his interest in all things Elvish against his lack of formal schooling. If an interested Sam could find out the tales off in the Shire, it seems likely that educated Gondorians would have heard them too. The average peasant in Morthond Vale? Maybe not so much. As for the Ring, nobody in Middle-earth knew its full history except Gandalf and those he told (and to a lesser extent Saruman, who did his own research). Even Isildur's part of the story had long been forgotten. In The LR II 2, "The Council of Elrond", Boromir says that everyone in Gondor knows that Isildur spent time in Minas Anor (old name of Minas Tirith) after the defeat of Sauron, but Gandalf says "But in that time also he made this scroll, and that is not remembered in Gondor, it would seem. For this scroll concerns the Ring, ..." So you can take it that no one in Gondor would have known about the Ring until the very last days of the War of the Ring -- and even then, only the great captains. (See "The Last Debate", The LR V 9.) >Related to this is the question of religion. Would the aforementioned >Mr. Gondor be able to name the Valar? What would he know of the >creation of the world and of Eru? Was there still any form of worship >in the mid-to-late third age? Read "The Window on the West", The LR IV 5. There you will see all that Gondor had of religion. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: General historical knowledge in ME Date: 5 Jan 2004 18:56:14 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3FF991A0.9BB91CAF@worldconquer.org> Reply-To: mightymartianca@yahoo.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: tandem.alberni.net (64.141.6.11) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1073328974 5887967 64.141.6.11 ([211612]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!tandem.alberni.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136184 On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:32:33 +0100, LITTLE LOCUS wrote: > AC wrote: >> >> Tolkien pretty much stayed away from overt religion. None of the Dunedain >> would have worshiped the Valar, of course. > > Uh... there's a very clear case of the name of the Valar being spoken in > a way very similar to how someone would nowadays refer to one's God in a > plea for help, > > "'Ware! Ware!' cried Damrod to his companion. 'May the Valar turn him > aside! Mūmak! Mūmak!'" Even the Elves called upon Varda. HOwever, I think that is more like calling for the aid of a saint or something like that. The Dunedain and the Elves both knew that Eru was the one god, and that the Valar, while beings to be revered, were not themselves gods. -- Aaron Clausen tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: General historical knowledge in ME Date: 5 Jan 2004 19:27:41 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 20 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: arctic.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.9 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!news.cc.uic.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136189 Stan Brown wrote: : In article in : rec.arts.books.tolkien, Gary Thompson wrote: :>Is there any hint, in letters or elsewhere, of how much history the :>average person in ME knew? Would Joe Gondor know the tale of the :>ring? Numenor? The tale of the Silmarils? : We can take it that many Gondorians would know of the Silmarils. Sam : clearly did, and we can set his interest in all things Elvish : against his lack of formal schooling. If an interested Sam could : find out the tales off in the Shire, it seems likely that educated : Gondorians would have heard them too. But Sam had been in Rivendell and had met Aragorn. On Weathertop, it seems that Sam and the other hobbits have never heard of the "Tale of Tinuviel" before. Sam knows a bit of "Bilbo's" poetry about Gil-galad, but he does not really know who Gil-galad was. Frodo knows a little about Gil-galad because he has spoken to Gandalf. Stephen ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: General historical knowledge in ME Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:08:59 -0500 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1073340618 19469 10.121.40.95 (5 Jan 2004 22:10:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:10:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!easynet-monga!easynet.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:136223 wrote > Stan Brown wrote: > : In article in > : rec.arts.books.tolkien, Gary Thompson wrote: > :>Is there any hint, in letters or elsewhere, of how much history the > :>average person in ME knew? Would Joe Gondor know the tale of the > :>ring? Numenor? The tale of the Silmarils? > > : We can take it that many Gondorians would know of the Silmarils. Sam > : clearly did, and we can set his interest in all things Elvish > : against his lack of formal schooling. If an interested Sam could > : find out the tales off in the Shire, it seems likely that educated > : Gondorians would have heard them too. > > But Sam had been in Rivendell and had met Aragorn. On Weathertop, > it seems that Sam and the other hobbits have never heard of the > "Tale of Tinuviel" before. Sam knows a bit of "Bilbo's" poetry > about Gil-galad, but he does not really know who Gil-galad was. > Frodo knows a little about Gil-galad because he has spoken to Gandalf. Sam had also spent much time around Frodo and Bilbo, who were quite exceptional Hobbits. I doubt the average Hobbit had heard of the Silmarils or anything else of Elvish lore, or would pay much attention if they had. And even Frodo, IIRC, doesn't realize quite how long Elrond has been kicking around Middle-earth. It's hard to say what an "ordinary" resident of Gondor would know or think since we don't meet many. Faramir hardly qualifies as "ordinary", and even with him I see no evidence that he knows anything extensive of the Valar other than that they exist and are to be revered (and a name or two, presumably), or of the Elven legends we know as the Silmarillion. He may know more than that, or he may not, and he may be typical of the more educated in Minas Tirith, or he may not. OTOH he immediately knows what Sam is referring to when he lets slip the remark about "the Enemy's Ring," so while the full story of the Ring, and even the fact of its survival, may have been unknown, it seems apparent that anyone with an interest in old tales must have known of its existence and had some idea of its power and importance. I think the most likely answer is that there is no "general" or "common" knowledge at all, save for very basic facts - Mordor was the home of a terrible Enemy of old; Elves have been sailing for the West as long as anyone remembers, etc. Beyond that, each culture and each class within that culture would know what interests and concerns it. The Rohirrim probably wouldn't know anything at all about any of these matters, other than perhaps a few songs picked up from their old allies, and why should they? Hobbits were interested in their own genealogies, not those of Kings and Half-Elves. Aragorn, of course, had a direct and compelling interest in the old stories. The Ruling Stewards had more of an interest in events of the Third Age, although being very proud of their Numenorean blood they kept some memory of the origins of their people. We are told that Boromir, who cares little for the doings of Wizards and Elves and such, is more typical of the mass of the people of Gondor in the late Third Age than are his brother and father, so I'd guess that outside their family there are few left with any interest in or knowledge of the old legends. And among Men outside of Gondor and the few remaining Dunedain of the North, probably none at all. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration@mindspring.com