From: "Isildur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: good books Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 01:55:33 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-129-37-239.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: titan.btinternet.com 1072403733 13360 81.129.37.239 (26 Dec 2003 01:55:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 01:55:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!carbon.eu.sun.com!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133748 I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). From the amazon reviews i'm divided between: George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire And Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen Just thought i'd ask your advice as my last attempt at an alternative (Wheel of time) ended up with me not even finishing book1 and going back to Tolkien. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:24:45 -0600 From: "James Hyder" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: good books Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 21:22:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.47.105.246 X-Trace: sv3-qCjUXWoNfYiQv4NBLmvR9KUYDRw9bcdVnyZs+81lD+9j3RRVK6gRKC2XW13OnXg3CqRP7/nBBlS0CwY!F9387HJuxgdXprA35oL0hTYEnCCekOO2aYfOiUofEtcefPhEayhNf42MYBpBaQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133753 "Isildur" wrote > I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, > and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). > > From the amazon reviews i'm divided between: > > George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire > And > Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen > > Just thought i'd ask your advice as my last attempt at an alternative (Wheel > of time) ended up with me not even finishing book1 and going back to > Tolkien. Heh, heh. Funny how that works, huh. Yes, if you are looking for something that will give you the Tolkien experience, you will, I am afraid, always be disappointed. Read Beowulf again. Or for that matter, the Old Testament. JH ###### From: Bryan S. Slick Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 21:40:11 -0500 Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Lines: 40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetcompany.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!surfnet.nl!news2.telebyte.nl!feed2.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!63.218.45.100.MISMATCH!posted2.newshosting.com!news.usenetcompany.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133757 [James Hyder (JamesHyder@comcast.net)] [Thu, 25 Dec 2003 21:22:56 -0500] : :"Isildur" wrote : :> I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, :> and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). :> :> From the amazon reviews i'm divided between: :> :> George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire :> And :> Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen :> :> Just thought i'd ask your advice as my last attempt at an alternative :(Wheel :> of time) ended up with me not even finishing book1 and going back to :> Tolkien. : : :Heh, heh. Funny how that works, huh. Yes, if you are looking for something :that will give you the Tolkien experience, you will, I am afraid, always be :disappointed. : :Read Beowulf again. Or for that matter, the Old Testament. : :JH The closest I've come to something that matches Tolkien in terms of writing and character development has been the Foundation novels. The first three are too short, but the fourth and fifth are simply outstanding. You might also try the Robot series by the same author. (Isaac Asimov.. to SF what Tolkien is to fantasy) -- Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net "To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." ###### From: JXStern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 03:57:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.125.45 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1072411033 4.62.125.45 (Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:57:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:57:13 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!4fcf30b0!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133766 On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 01:55:33 +0000 (UTC), "Isildur" wrote: >I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, >and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). McCaffrey's Dragonflight, and one or two more of the seven million follow-ons. Saberhagen's Empire of the East, if you can find it. Hey, it's just reissued, and I need a new copy, kewl! Zelazny's Amber series. Zelazny's Lord of Light -- officially sci-fi, but it reads like fantasy, and it's still in print! Heck, most anything by Zelazny is worth the time. Even a few of Anthony's earlier Xanth series, or, if you can find it, Battle Circle, his first book. Heck, have you ever read Burrough's Mars series? There's nothing like the classics! Or, heck, for that matter, the Tarzan series. Niven's The Magic Goes Away, and then you can dig up the earlier story, What Good Is A Glass Dagger? Glen Cook has his Black Company series, which are serious potboilers, but quite good in their own way. None of these are LOTR clones, but all are excellent, and have heavy mythological elements. For that matter, if you're not familiar with Larry Niven's sci-fi, Ringworld, Mote in God's Eye, and Known Space story collections, go there, trust me on this! And along the sci-fi axis, the Uplift Saga books of David Brin. Out of this list, Saberhagen and Zelazny are probably the best writers, Dragonflight the best single book, and Niven the most creative. Enjoy! Well, that should last you through Easter. J. ###### Lines: 49 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 26 Dec 2003 04:29:48 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: good books Message-ID: <20031225232948.03799.00001851@mb-m07.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.nextoneserver.com!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!news3.optonline.net!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133775 Isildur wrote: >George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire >And >Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen Interesting. I'm finishing up the most recent volume of Martin's series now, and Erikson's is essentially next on my list. An excerpt from my evolving reaction to Martin's series (these are typically posted on rec.arts.sf.written): --- I think that a very strong argument can be made that George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire is the finest work of epic fantasy since J.R.R. Tolkien first defined the genre with THE LORD OF THE RINGS. And that's pretty much the only comparison which can be made between Martin's emerging masterpiece and Tolkien's classic. Where Tolkien adopts a nostalgic poeticism, Martin embraces a harsh realism. Where Tolkien's work is driven overwhelmingly by a single conflict between good and evil, Martin weaves a complex political drama. --- Things I like about Martin: - The books are simply not predictable. Based on a long experience with extruded fantasy products, you may *think* you know where the pot is going... but more often than not, you'll be completely wrong. Plus, Martin isn't so foolish as to have *nothing* turn out as you expect or hope -- just enough threads do carry themselves out to a traditional conclusion that you cannot even rest assured that the traditional cannot happen. - Injuries have meaningful, long-lasting effect -- scars linger, old wounds ache, and even bruises make their presense felt. This attitude is carried into the world as a whole: Things *happen*, and the world changes. (Actually, this may be one place where I can draw a meaningful comparison between Martin and Tolkien: Unlike so many epic fantasy writers, their worlds are affected and permanently altered by the stories they tell.) - Martin does a very good job of putting you inside the heads of many different characters, each of whom has a unique outlook on the world. Unlike Terry Brooks, Robert Jordan, and their ilk, Martin is not simply regurgitating LOTR. He has truly embraced epic fantasy, but he has made it his own. Unfortunately, that makes it a little difficult to know whether your particular tastes will find Martin palatable. But I will say this: This is a great series. Justin Bacon triad3204@aol.com ###### Lines: 14 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 26 Dec 2003 04:31:52 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: good books Message-ID: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.nextoneserver.com!news.newsland.it!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133776 Bryan S. Slick wrote: >The closest I've come to something that matches Tolkien in terms of >writing and character development has been the Foundation novels. The >first three are too short, but the fourth and fifth are simply >outstanding. The fourth and fifth are simply outstanding...? ... So you're the one, eh? Justin Bacon triad3204@aol.com ###### Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:09:53 -0500 From: j7y@liws.org (jere7my tho?rpe) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Message-ID: References: Organization: Bongo's Madness Hats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.74.193.98 X-Trace: 1072415393 reader3.news.rcn.net 4745 67.74.193.98:1601 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133789 In article , "Isildur" wrote: >I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, >and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). > >From the amazon reviews i'm divided between: > >George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire >And >Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen I was very impressed with Martin's SoIaF, and agree in pretty much all respects with Justin Bacon's review. Note, however, that not all volumes are out yet, so you'll be in for a wait. (I haven't read the Erikson.) If you want more epic fantasy, I was personally quite influenced by Donaldson's Covenant series when I was younger, and there's a case to be made that he was specifically reworking (and consciously perverting) Tolkien when he created the land; Donaldson's a love-him or hate-him kind of author, though, so YMMV. The most interesting fantasy writer working today is either Gene Wolfe or China Mieville, though neither is very much like Tolkien. ----j7y -- ********************************************************************* jere7my tho?rpe / 734-769-0913 "There is no spoon." "SPOON!" "There >>> j7y@liws.org <<< is no spoon." "SPOON!" "There is no invert liws to reply via email spoon." "SPOON!"---The Tick vs. Neo ###### From: dogger_blue@yahoo.ca (Dogger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: 25 Dec 2003 21:55:40 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.39.197.15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1072418141 18239 127.0.0.1 (26 Dec 2003 05:55:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 05:55:41 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133800 "Isildur" wrote in message news:... > I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, > and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). > > From the amazon reviews i'm divided between: > > George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire > And > Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen > > Just thought i'd ask your advice as my last attempt at an alternative (Wheel > of time) ended up with me not even finishing book1 and going back to > Tolkien. Have you read Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever? Pretty good. Also, the George R.R. Martin series is pretty good, very restrained in the use of fantastical elements, much like Tolkien, but similar in almost no other way. Very, very few truly heroic characters in that series, they are more like people you know, only more so. But it's a damn well-told story. You can never expect to find the exact same mix of elements. If you like impossibly heroic figures like Aragorn and Faramir, then Guy Gavriel Kay's work springs to mind. His heroes are always painfully pure. DB. ###### From: Bryan S. Slick Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 01:24:21 -0500 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Lines: 24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetcompany.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.nextoneserver.com!news.newsland.it!proxad.net!proxad.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!63.218.45.100.MISMATCH!posted2.newshosting.com!news.usenetcompany.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133803 [Justin Bacon (triad3204@aol.com)] [26 Dec 2003 04:31:52 GMT] :Bryan S. Slick wrote: :>The closest I've come to something that matches Tolkien in terms of :>writing and character development has been the Foundation novels. The :>first three are too short, but the fourth and fifth are simply :>outstanding. : :The fourth and fifth are simply outstanding...? : :... : :So you're the one, eh? You don't consider 'Foundation's Edge' and 'Foundation and Earth' to be excellent works? Are you presenting your point from the basis of being a fan of Asimov's work, btw? -- Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net "To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.44.169 From: "Adrian Whapkaplet" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: good books Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Message-ID: <6XQGb.830405$9l5.689962@pd7tw2no> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 06:54:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1072421698 24.70.95.207 (Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:54:58 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:54:58 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133812 "Isildur" wrote in message news:bsg4el$d1g$1@titan.btinternet.com... > I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, > and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). > > From the amazon reviews i'm divided between: > > George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire > And > Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen > > Just thought i'd ask your advice as my last attempt at an alternative (Wheel > of time) ended up with me not even finishing book1 and going back to > Tolkien. I've read all of Martins Song of ice and fire and i've found it to be a truly amazing piece of work. Much easier to read and get into that Tolkien though likely less depth of commentary on the human spirit, still quite an excellent work of fiction. I've read the first book of Eriksons series and found it both uncompelling and at times virtually incomprehensible. Not that I didnt understand what was going on but that there didnt seem to be any reason for me to care. It's much farther from both Tolkiens work and reality than Song of Ice and Fire. ###### Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 02:30:51 -0500 From: j7y@liws.org (jere7my tho?rpe) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Message-ID: References: Organization: Bongo's Madness Hats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.74.193.57 X-Trace: 1072423849 reader3.news.rcn.net 4739 67.74.193.57:1442 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133813 In article , dogger_blue@yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote: >If you like impossibly heroic figures like Aragorn and Faramir, then >Guy Gavriel Kay's work springs to mind. His heroes are always >painfully pure. Oh, seconded, yes. Kay (who worked with Christopher Tolkien on the Silmarillion) is clearly influenced strongly by Tolkien, though his stories tend toward near-retellings of real history, with more or less magic sprinkled in. Avoid the Fionavar Tapestry, which I found pretty juvenile, and jump in with his later work (_Tigana_ or _The Sarantine Mosaic_, especially). ----j7y -- ********************************************************************* jere7my tho?rpe / 734-769-0913 "There is no spoon." "SPOON!" "There >>> j7y@liws.org <<< is no spoon." "SPOON!" "There is no invert liws to reply via email spoon." "SPOON!"---The Tick vs. Neo ###### From: Martin Cavendish Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:48:14 +0000 Organization: Not today, thank you Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1194.alakazam.dialup.pol.co.uk (217.135.15.170) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072435755 13589220 217.135.15.170 ([62434]) X-Orig-Path: spamnull.co.uk!martin.nospam User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U () Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!modem-1194.alakazam.dialup.pol.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133819 In message , Isildur wrote >I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, >and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). > >From the amazon reviews i'm divided between: > >George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire >And >Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen > >Just thought i'd ask your advice as my last attempt at an alternative (Wheel >of time) ended up with me not even finishing book1 and going back to >Tolkien. Have you read "Voyage to Arcturus" by David Lindsay? I confess my memory of it's contents is dim and it is quite a short work. I believe I'm correct in saying Charles Williams recommended it to C S Lewis, who, in turn, recommended it to Tolkien. Lewis' s "Perelandra" shows he was influenced quite strongly by David Lindsay. Lindsay was a very queer chap who died just after the war in very bizarre circumstances and his book is queerer still. Some have called it a "masterpiece" but if flopped when it was first published in 1920. But it is certainly unique of it's kind and the story is one which lingers in the mind - even after 40 years! I think it has recently been re-published in the UK. -- Martin Cavendish ###### From: dogger_blue@yahoo.ca (Dogger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: 26 Dec 2003 08:02:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.39.197.15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1072454528 22896 127.0.0.1 (26 Dec 2003 16:02:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133856 j7y@liws.org (jere7my tho?rpe) wrote in message news:... > In article , > dogger_blue@yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote: > > >If you like impossibly heroic figures like Aragorn and Faramir, then > >Guy Gavriel Kay's work springs to mind. His heroes are always > >painfully pure. > > Oh, seconded, yes. Kay (who worked with Christopher Tolkien on the > Silmarillion) is clearly influenced strongly by Tolkien, though his stories > tend toward near-retellings of real history, with more or less magic > sprinkled in. Avoid the Fionavar Tapestry, which I found pretty juvenile, > and jump in with his later work (_Tigana_ or _The Sarantine Mosaic_, > especially). Yes, IIRC, Tigana also has a prodigiously heroic king-in-hiding waiting to reclaim his throne, much like Aragorn. Also, I quite enjoyed Robin Hobb's first series, although I can't now remember the name of any of the books, except for the beginning of the new series where I started to lose interest (Ship of Fools? Anyway, that's the one NOT to read IMO.) DB. ###### From: dogger_blue@yahoo.ca (Dogger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: 26 Dec 2003 08:10:52 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <6XQGb.830405$9l5.689962@pd7tw2no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.39.197.15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1072455052 23472 127.0.0.1 (26 Dec 2003 16:10:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:10:52 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133859 "Adrian Whapkaplet" wrote in message news:<6XQGb.830405$9l5.689962@pd7tw2no>... > I've read all of Martins Song of ice and fire and i've found it to be a > truly amazing piece of work. Much easier to read and get into that Tolkien > though likely less depth of commentary on the human spirit, still quite an > excellent work of fiction. Oh, there's plenty of commentary on the human spirit, alright. But it isn't exactly uplifting. Martin can accurately be described as either an extreme pragmatist or a total cynic when it comes to human nature. In fact, his is probably the least uplifting fantasy series I've ever read, but that's not a black mark in my book -- he still manages to be totally gripping and present a totally believable world you can inhabit, it's just not really one you would want to live in. But it's a damn fine accomplishment and impossible to avoid continuing once it's bitten you. Oddly, though, this series seems to be going on forever ... I've read three of the installments and there is still a plotline in it that has not even begun to come to a head, and has been brewing since Book One. Furthermore, there is no promised end in sight ... Martin has given us no indication of how many books we'll be asked to read before all of these plotlines are resolved. One gets the very strong sense that even he doesn't know for sure, and that he is basically making it up as he goes along (that's not a criticism), and therefore being very open-ended about it. DB. ###### Lines: 39 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mddestiny@aol.comlemon (Rhiannon S) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 27 Dec 2003 01:12:36 GMT References: Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Subject: Re: good books Message-ID: <20031226201236.15599.00001796@mb-m03.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!freenix!deine.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133933 >Subject: good books >From: "Isildur" michaelharper01nospam@spamsucksbtinternet.com >Date: 26/12/2003 01:55 GMT Standard Time >Message-id: > >I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, >and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). > >From the amazon reviews i'm divided between: > >George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire >And >Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen > >Just thought i'd ask your advice as my last attempt at an alternative (Wheel >of time) ended up with me not even finishing book1 and going back to >Tolkien. Well, personally I always recomend Terry Pratchett's Discworld http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/725950/ref=pd_d_ra_rab_1_1 /qid=1072487091/sr=6-1/026-2547561-0173257 Juilet E Mckenna's tales of Einarinn http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1857236882/qid=1072487172/sr=1-5/ ref=sr_1_19_5/026-2547561-0173257 and Brian Lumely's Necroscope series. http://www.booklore.co.uk/PastReviews/LumleyBrian/Necroscope/NecroscopeRev iew.htm An eclectic bunch, a comedy writer who goes from laugh out loud parody to dark satire. An Oxford scholar who seems to have a very good idea of what characters would really be doing on a battle field and of course Mr Lumley's tale of vampires, necromancers and the cold war. -- Rhiannon http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/ Q: how many witches does it take to change a lightbulb? A: depends on what you want it changed into! ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: good books Lines: 53 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 05:18:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.182.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1072502307 162.83.182.141 (Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:18:27 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:18:27 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!diablo.voicenet.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133996 "Isildur" wrote in message news:bsg4el$d1g$1@titan.btinternet.com... > I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, > and i'm re-reading the Silm (also read UT). > > From the amazon reviews i'm divided between: > > George R.R. Martin: A Song of Ice and Fire > And > Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen > > Just thought i'd ask your advice as my last attempt at an alternative (Wheel > of time) ended up with me not even finishing book1 and going back to > Tolkien. Try Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, of which I think there are now 24 or so. Several include parodies of bits of Tolkien, notably Guards! Guards! (Ankh-Morpork is a send-up of Minas Tirith, the Patrician Vetinari of Denethor, and Carrot Ironfounderson of Aragorn. Rincewind and Ridcully are take-offs on Gandalf. Lords and Ladies is quite vicious about Elves, and several of the books have taken Tolkien's single line about dwarf women being indistinguishable from dwarf men and dashed for the wild horizon with it. I doubt JRRT ever imagined dwarvish transvestism....) For books that helped INSPIRE JRRT, you might check out Lord Dunsany, William Morris, George MacDonald and H. Rider Haggard's She -- the last is the (unacknowledged) origin of much of Numenor. Superb later fantasies include Walter de la Mare's The Three Mulla-Mulgars and Charles Williams's "Christian thrillers," e.g. All Hallows' Eve, The Greater Trumps, and Descent Into Hell (among others). For a mingling of medieval allegory and science fiction, C.S. Lewis's Perelandra trilogy is beautifully written though far too allegorical for some tastes (including Tolkien's). His last work of fiction, Till We Have Faces, is even lovelier. For imaginary countries: Samuel Butler's Erewhon is superb, and (author?)'s Islandia is a bit tedious but pretty complete. And there's always Gormenghast for the deeply insomniac.... or E.R. Eddison for those whose insomnia has passed the fine line of psychosis. Pity Charlotte Bronte threw out her sisters' and her fantasies about the Kingdom of Gondal. They'd have made her a rich woman today. Tsar Parmethule ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:07:13 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o185.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1072552438 46227 212.205.252.185 (27 Dec 2003 19:13:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:13:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134093 "Bryan S. Slick" wrote in message news:MPG.1a559e205f9f6dc49899c9@news2.usenetrocket.com... > [Justin Bacon (triad3204@aol.com)] > [26 Dec 2003 04:31:52 GMT] > > :Bryan S. Slick wrote: > :>The closest I've come to something that matches Tolkien in terms of > :>writing and character development has been the Foundation novels. The > :>first three are too short, but the fourth and fifth are simply > :>outstanding. > : > :The fourth and fifth are simply outstanding...? > : > :... > : > :So you're the one, eh? > > You don't consider 'Foundation's Edge' and 'Foundation and Earth' to be > excellent works? Are you presenting your point from the basis of being > a fan of Asimov's work, btw? I'm a fan of Asimov's works, and though I somewhat enjoyed Foundation's Edge, I thought Foundation and Earth to be a true disappointment, meandering and mostly meaningless... My favourite of the Foundation works is probably the one last written, "Forward the Foundation" -- though it's properly appreciated only when one has read the six earlier books I think... "Prelude to the Foundation" is also one I liked. Then the first three books and "Foundation's Edge". "Foundation and Earth" however comes last in my order of preference. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:10:39 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o185.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1072552644 46530 212.205.252.185 (27 Dec 2003 19:17:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:17:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134094 "Dogger" wrote in message news:eed9768b.0312260802.3b0fd3e5@posting.google.com... > j7y@liws.org (jere7my tho?rpe) wrote in message news:... > > > > Oh, seconded, yes. Kay (who worked with Christopher Tolkien on the > > Silmarillion) is clearly influenced strongly by Tolkien, though his stories > > tend toward near-retellings of real history, with more or less magic > > sprinkled in. Avoid the Fionavar Tapestry, which I found pretty juvenile, > > and jump in with his later work (_Tigana_ or _The Sarantine Mosaic_, > > especially). > > Yes, IIRC, Tigana also has a prodigiously heroic king-in-hiding > waiting to reclaim his throne, much like Aragorn. > > Also, I quite enjoyed Robin Hobb's first series, although I can't now > remember the name of any of the books, The Farseer Trilogy: 1. Assassin's Apprentice 2. Royal Assassin 3. Assassin's Quest The first two of these books are absolutely great, among my faves -- but the third one is rather longer, repetitive and more tiresome. Read it only in order to finish the trilogy, because it's not worth much otherwise. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: good books Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:42:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.169.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1072554166 162.84.169.191 (Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:42:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:42:46 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134099 P.S. Three of my favorite fantasy-sci fi novels (and I admit I tend to avoid the genre) are Diane Duane's The Door Into Fire, The Door Into Shadow and The Door Into ... now what was that last one? Well, there are three, and many of us have been waiting for years for the fourth. (Four were always intended, but you know these annoying authors and their dawdles.) Especially recommended to pagans. (Although most of my fellow pagans, to my despair, will swallow anything with a quest and adorable elves in it, and I long ago learned to take their recommendations with a mine of salt.) Tsar Parmathule ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: good books Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <%mlHb.6090$BJ4.2297@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:49:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.169.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1072554555 162.84.169.191 (Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:49:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:49:15 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134101 "Martin Cavendish" wrote in message news:gVdyucBuHB7$Ewpr@noonehere.com... > Have you read "Voyage to Arcturus" by David Lindsay? > I confess my memory of it's contents is dim and it is quite a short It's LOVELY and WEIRD and yes, very short. I also liked his The Haunted Lady (of which the same things could be said). > work. I believe I'm correct in saying Charles Williams recommended it to > C S Lewis, who, in turn, recommended it to Tolkien. Lewis' s > "Perelandra" shows he was influenced quite strongly by David Lindsay. > > Lindsay was a very queer chap who died just after the war in very > bizarre circumstances WELL????? (panting) Tsar Parmathule ###### From: Bryan S. Slick Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:42:44 -0500 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Lines: 25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetcompany.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!63.218.45.100.MISMATCH!posted2.newshosting.com!news.usenetcompany.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134142 [Aris Katsaris (katsaris@otenet.gr)] [Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:07:13 +0200] :My favourite of the Foundation works is probably the one last written, :"Forward the Foundation" -- though it's properly appreciated only :when one has read the six earlier books I think... "Prelude to the :Foundation" is also one I liked. Then the first three books and :"Foundation's Edge". "Foundation and Earth" however comes :last in my order of preference. I can agree with this. "Forward" was outstanding and I'm in fact currently once again in Demerzel's office as he's about to say goodbye to Hari for a while. As for "..and Earth", what killed it for you? Bander? I found him/her/it extraordinarily annoying, as well as Fallom. I wonder what Asimov had planned for further books. Have you read the Second Foundation Trilogy? -- Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net "To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." ###### From: Martin Cavendish Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:02:28 +0000 Organization: Not today, thank you Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4HTUKPBUbz7$EwLf@noonehere.com> References: <%mlHb.6090$BJ4.2297@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-661.arbok.dialup.pol.co.uk (217.135.18.149) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072641758 13462097 217.135.18.149 ([62434]) X-Orig-Path: spamnull.co.uk!martin.nospam User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U () Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!modem-661.arbok.dialup.pol.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134350 In message <%mlHb.6090$BJ4.2297@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>, A Tsar Is Born wrote > >"Martin Cavendish" wrote in message >news:gVdyucBuHB7$Ewpr@noonehere.com... >> Have you read "Voyage to Arcturus" by David Lindsay? >> I confess my memory of it's contents is dim and it is quite a short > >It's LOVELY and WEIRD and yes, very short. >I also liked his The Haunted Lady (of which the same things could be said). > >> work. I believe I'm correct in saying Charles Williams recommended it to >> C S Lewis, who, in turn, recommended it to Tolkien. Lewis' s >> "Perelandra" shows he was influenced quite strongly by David Lindsay. >> >> Lindsay was a very queer chap who died just after the war in very >> bizarre circumstances > >WELL????? > >(panting) That's all I know - truthfully. I think he died of some bizarre dental affliction - but don't quote me. No oranges or handcuffs were involved - AFAIK. :-) -- Martin Cavendish ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:25:43 -0600 Message-ID: <3FF0478F.2050905@mfx.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:26:07 -0500 From: Peter H User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 (NSCD7.01) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.5.183.172 X-Trace: sv3-iUvBf19tjQjbEZZHE1HwCyjKG19KbtRmR6uvuG8qkjXim+rEH4FHlCl8ZLkqlvbgCpRTYmb3JR48/zp!AaoKIzkW3VXcOgSijT9PX/CXanTS0s2/mEU5y6Qwwu5v2lk0T8nsKSzC X-Complaints-To: abuse@gwi.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@gwi.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.gwi.net!news.gwi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134519 Isildur wrote: >I'm looking for a new fantasy series to read, i've read LOTR 3 or 4 times, >..... > I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned the Deryni series by Katherine Kurtz. It's not masterful literature by any stretch, but very involved plot lines & fairly good character develpment put flesh on a quasi-King Arthur sort of story set in Middle Ages Wales - and with just enough 'wizardry' to spice things up. Solid writing without any pretensions of being "great." Pete H -- If A = Success, then the formula is A=X+Y+Z where X=work; Y=play; Z= keep your mouth shut. A. Einstein (1955) ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:18:18 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3ff0fb35.10080609@news.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-npw-vty4.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1072757918 13649 216.192.95.4 (30 Dec 2003 04:18:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:18:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news2.telebyte.nl!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134693 On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 01:55:33 +0000 (UTC), "Isildur" wrote: >Just thought i'd ask your advice as my last attempt at an alternative (Wheel >of time) ended up with me not even finishing book1 and going back to >Tolkien. Not yet mentioned in this thread: Ursula LeGuin, the Earthsea series. Start with "A Wizard of Earthsea" and you won't stop until you've dug up all the short stories as well as the full novels. Mary Renault, "The King Must Die". It's her retelling of the legend of Theseus (the Minotaur, the Labyrinth, you remember that stuff). Awesome. The sequel is "The Bull from the Sea", but "The Last of the Wine" is better: it has Socrates in it. Jim Deutch ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: 30 Dec 2003 04:05:22 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.173.92.20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1072785922 16800 127.0.0.1 (30 Dec 2003 12:05:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:05:22 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134751 Bryan S. Slick wrote in message news:... > [Justin Bacon (triad3204@aol.com)] > :The fourth and fifth are simply outstanding...? > : > :... > : > :So you're the one, eh? > > You don't consider 'Foundation's Edge' and 'Foundation and Earth' to be > excellent works? They aren't even good works. FOUNDATION'S EDGE is a poor book at best, and FOUNDATION AND EARTH is simply trash. Nor am I alone in this sentiment. The opinion is widely held, and "read the first three Foundation books, then stop" is practically a truism among science fiction fans. (Do a Google Groups search if you don't believe me.) > Are you presenting your point from the basis of being > a fan of Asimov's work, btw? Yes. The original Foundation trilogy, the robot stories, and the robot novels (among many of his other works) are all classics. But Asimov's legacy would be much better served if he had never returned to the Foundation. Justin Bacon triad3204@aol.com ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: 30 Dec 2003 18:21:32 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@yahoo.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: tandem.alberni.net (64.141.6.11) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072808492 1040085 64.141.6.11 ([211612]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!tandem.alberni.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134855 On 30 Dec 2003 04:05:22 -0800, Justin Bacon wrote: > Bryan S. Slick wrote in message news:... >> [Justin Bacon (triad3204@aol.com)] >> :The fourth and fifth are simply outstanding...? >> : >> :... >> : >> :So you're the one, eh? >> >> You don't consider 'Foundation's Edge' and 'Foundation and Earth' to be >> excellent works? > > They aren't even good works. FOUNDATION'S EDGE is a poor book at best, > and FOUNDATION AND EARTH is simply trash. > > Nor am I alone in this sentiment. The opinion is widely held, and > "read the first three Foundation books, then stop" is practically a > truism among science fiction fans. (Do a Google Groups search if you > don't believe me.) Yes, the later Foundation books were just garbage. I managed to finish them but only just. I haven't met too many people that liked them, though many gave the books a chance because it was Asimov. I have noted the same phenomona with the Brian Herbet and Kevin Anderson, though frankly I find these new "Dune" books to be so atrocious and so counter to what I gathered from the Frank Herbert's books that I will not read House Corrino or any other claptrap. Brian Herbert hints that there are is a lot of unreleased material, at least in the form of notes, but rather than do what Christopher Tolkien did and release those notes, Brian Herbert has muddied the name of another great SF series by releasing adolescent pulp SF under the Dune brand name. > >> Are you presenting your point from the basis of being >> a fan of Asimov's work, btw? > > Yes. The original Foundation trilogy, the robot stories, and the robot > novels (among many of his other works) are all classics. But Asimov's > legacy would be much better served if he had never returned to the > Foundation. Asimov was a very uneven writer, I suspect largely due to the fact that he just simply wrote too much. Some of his books (like the Foundation trilogy) still rank as some of the very best books in the genre, a milestone that many authors try to beat, though few ever do. At the same time, this is a guy who published a book of dirty limericks. He seemed far more concerned with quantity than quality. Still, when Asimov had it, he had it good. -- Aaron Clausen tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) ###### From: Bryan S. Slick Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:13:39 -0500 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Lines: 39 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetcompany.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news2.euro.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!63.218.45.100.MISMATCH!posted2.newshosting.com!news.usenetcompany.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134978 [Justin Bacon (triad3204@aol.com)] [30 Dec 2003 04:05:22 -0800] :> You don't consider 'Foundation's Edge' and 'Foundation and Earth' to be :> excellent works? : :They aren't even good works. FOUNDATION'S EDGE is a poor book at best, :and FOUNDATION AND EARTH is simply trash. : :Nor am I alone in this sentiment. The opinion is widely held, and :"read the first three Foundation books, then stop" is practically a :truism among science fiction fans. (Do a Google Groups search if you :don't believe me.) : :> Are you presenting your point from the basis of being :> a fan of Asimov's work, btw? : :Yes. The original Foundation trilogy, the robot stories, and the robot :novels (among many of his other works) are all classics. But Asimov's :legacy would be much better served if he had never returned to the :Foundation. I couldn't possibly disagree more. The characters in the first three weren't fleshed out enough. They were written for the short attention spans of magazine readers and it shows. Trevize, Pelorat, Blissenobiarella, etc.. are all much better characters than any in the first three books, with the possible exception of Salvor Hardin and Hober Mallow. Then again, that's why they call 'em personal opinions. BTW, in six years lurking and posting occasionally on the Asmiov group, I've not seen the "common" opinion you cite about the 4th and 5th. -- Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net "To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: 31 Dec 2003 03:05:22 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@yahoo.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: tandem.alberni.net (64.141.6.11) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072839922 1308575 64.141.6.11 ([211612]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!tandem.alberni.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134999 On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:13:39 -0500, Bryan S Slick wrote: > [Justin Bacon (triad3204@aol.com)] > [30 Dec 2003 04:05:22 -0800] > >:> You don't consider 'Foundation's Edge' and 'Foundation and Earth' to be >:> excellent works? >: >:They aren't even good works. FOUNDATION'S EDGE is a poor book at best, >:and FOUNDATION AND EARTH is simply trash. >: >:Nor am I alone in this sentiment. The opinion is widely held, and >:"read the first three Foundation books, then stop" is practically a >:truism among science fiction fans. (Do a Google Groups search if you >:don't believe me.) >: >:> Are you presenting your point from the basis of being >:> a fan of Asimov's work, btw? >: >:Yes. The original Foundation trilogy, the robot stories, and the robot >:novels (among many of his other works) are all classics. But Asimov's >:legacy would be much better served if he had never returned to the >:Foundation. > > I couldn't possibly disagree more. The characters in the first three > weren't fleshed out enough. They were written for the short attention > spans of magazine readers and it shows. Trevize, Pelorat, > Blissenobiarella, etc.. are all much better characters than any in the > first three books, with the possible exception of Salvor Hardin and > Hober Mallow. > > Then again, that's why they call 'em personal opinions. > > BTW, in six years lurking and posting occasionally on the Asmiov group, > I've not seen the "common" opinion you cite about the 4th and 5th. I have found that Asimov wasn't often very interested in characterization in his stories. Many of his characters in many of his books are little more than plot vehicles. In fact, if you read Asimov carefully you will find that other than a few characters such as the Mule, he spends almost no time describing how they look. I've heard that this was due to his poor eyesight, though I imagine it was just his style. Not every author is a Charles Dickens or Jane Austen, able to give us astoundingly vivid descriptions of characters. -- Aaron Clausen tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) ###### From: Bryan S. Slick Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:16:50 -0500 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Lines: 22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetcompany.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!63.218.45.100.MISMATCH!posted2.newshosting.com!news.usenetcompany.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135008 [AC (mightymartianca@yahoo.ca)] [31 Dec 2003 03:05:22 GMT] :I have found that Asimov wasn't often very interested in characterization in :his stories. Many of his characters in many of his books are little more :than plot vehicles. In fact, if you read Asimov carefully you will find :that other than a few characters such as the Mule, he spends almost no time :describing how they look. I've heard that this was due to his poor :eyesight, though I imagine it was just his style. Not every author is a :Charles Dickens or Jane Austen, able to give us astoundingly vivid :descriptions of characters. I tend to agree with this about some of his early stuff. Interestingly enough, it's not nearly as valid about 'Foundation's Edge' or 'Foundation and Earth'. Janov Pelorat, Golan Trevize, Bander, Harla Branno, Mitza Lizalor, etc.. many characters.. wonderfully illustrated. -- Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net "To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: 31 Dec 2003 18:08:38 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.142.181.173 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1072922919 4595 127.0.0.1 (1 Jan 2004 02:08:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 02:08:39 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135218 AC wrote in message news:... > I have found that Asimov wasn't often very interested in characterization in > his stories. Many of his characters in many of his books are little more > than plot vehicles. In fact, if you read Asimov carefully you will find > that other than a few characters such as the Mule, he spends almost no time > describing how they look. I've heard that this was due to his poor > eyesight, though I imagine it was just his style. Not every author is a > Charles Dickens or Jane Austen, able to give us astoundingly vivid > descriptions of characters. This paragraph strikes me as a massive non sequitur. For starters, Jane Austen is famed for NOT giving physical descriptions of her characters. In fact, Rudyard Kipling has a short story in which this fact is played up dramatically. Austen does, of course, have vivid characters -- but that vividness is not a result of describing their physical appearance. Furthermore, it is true that in a significant portion of Asimov's fiction the characters are simply plot vehicles. This is particularly true in a lot of his short fiction, which were largely plot-oriented stories. But it's *also* true that Asimov's most famous works -- the Foundation Trilogy, the robot stories, The Gods Themselves, The End of Eternity -- are all thickly populated with highly memorable, distinct, and vivid characters: Lije Bailey, Salvador Hardin, Susan Calvin, the Mule, Bayta, Arcadia. And, with the exception of the robot shorts, these are character-driven pieces. Nevertheless, Asimov has this undeserved reputation of writing cardboard characters. The only explanation I can come up with is that Asimov didn't feel he was very good at writing characters, commented frequently on the fact, and the meme took hold. But Asimov was wrong. Perhaps he did have great difficulty in writing vivid characters, but when he did, he did it very well: Creating his best works and some of the most memorable characters in speculative fiction. Justin Bacon triad3204@aol.com ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: good books Date: 31 Dec 2003 18:18:53 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20031225233152.03799.00001852@mb-m07.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.142.181.173 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1072923533 5239 127.0.0.1 (1 Jan 2004 02:18:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 02:18:53 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news2.telebyte.nl!fu-berlin.de!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135222 Bryan S. Slick wrote in message news:... > I couldn't possibly disagree more. The characters in the first three > weren't fleshed out enough. They were written for the short attention > spans of magazine readers and it shows. Trevize, Pelorat, > Blissenobiarella, etc.. are all much better characters than any in the > first three books, with the possible exception of Salvor Hardin and > Hober Mallow. I'd include the Mule on that same level. Bayta, Bel Riose, Hans Pritcher, and Arcadia just below them. Which is pretty much the whole cast of characters. ;) > BTW, in six years lurking and posting occasionally on the Asmiov group, > I've not seen the "common" opinion you cite about the 4th and 5th. The fact that it isn't particularly common on an Asimov fan group doesn't surprise me. I suspect that my reading of rec.arts.sf.written is a more accurate assessment of the non-fanboy reaction. Justin Bacon triad3204@aol.com ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <%mlHb.6090$BJ4.2297@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> Subject: Re: good books Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <8a_Ib.28974$tY5.10147@nwrdny01.gnilink.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 19:03:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.155.134.56 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1072983812 141.155.134.56 (Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:03:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:03:32 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135349 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote in message news:%mlHb.6090$BJ4.2297@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... > > "Martin Cavendish" wrote in message > news:gVdyucBuHB7$Ewpr@noonehere.com... > > Have you read "Voyage to Arcturus" by David Lindsay? > > I confess my memory of it's contents is dim and it is quite a short > > It's LOVELY and WEIRD and yes, very short. Oh, and by the way, Tolkien loved it but didn't think it an entire success because too obscure. Tsar P