From: Lord Jubjub Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:02:06 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!jubjub Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132170 Interesting article in the New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?031222crat_atlarge I pretty much agree with him. I like his description of the Ring's tempations: "Tolkien mutes the romance of medieval stories and puts us out in self-abnegating, Anglican-modernist, T. S. Eliot territory. The ring is a never-ending nightmare to which people are drawn for no obvious reason. It generates lust and yet gives no satisfaction." -- Lord Jubjub, ruler of the slithy toves. If you want to contact me, remember I am a LORD. ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:53:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.155.149.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1071888823 141.155.149.76 (Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:53:43 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:53:43 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132226 "Lord Jubjub" wrote in message news:jubjub-35F05B.17020619122003@corp.supernews.com... > Interesting article in the New Yorker: > > http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?031222crat_atlarge Ross is one of their best critics. But anyone who's hung around this ng for a while knows QUITE WELL that Ross's crack about a conspiracy of silence by Tolkien fans about Wagner's influence is nonsense -- we've gone on and on about it. (I'm one of those who insists that a Ring of Power was Wagner's invention, and Tolkien found it there -- Wagnerian ideas being difficult to avoid in the half century before LotR began to be written, and we know that JRRT saw Wagner's Ring and disliked it. There are a lot of people who seem hurt by that, but none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other people, and no one can deny that JRRT knew Wagner's work quite well.) Tsar Parmathule ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:15:40 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132264 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born wrote: >none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other >people, Isn't there a magic Ring in one of the tales of the Arabian Nights, that controls a genie? Did Wagner actually invent the Ring he used? I thought he adapted it from earlier materials in German and Norse myths. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Apteryx" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:58:06 +1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.55.146.202 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 1071907243 210.55.146.202 (Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:00:43 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:00:43 NZDT Organization: Xtra Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132270 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1a4dc12ba62e659b98b9f5@news.odyssey.net... > In article in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born wrote: > >none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other > >people, > > Isn't there a magic Ring in one of the tales of the Arabian Nights, > that controls a genie? > > Did Wagner actually invent the Ring he used? I thought he adapted it > from earlier materials in German and Norse myths. The Norse sources (which I haven't read) may have a more powerful ring. But in Wagner's main German source, The Nibelungenlied, the ring is just a ring. It becomes significant, but only because through it Brunhilde comes to realise that it was Siegfried, and not Gunther, who (forcibly) overcame her resistance to her marriage to Gunther (unwisely taking a ring from her in the process as a trophy). -- Apteryx Treat anger like gold. Spend it wisely or not at all. ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 59 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:09:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.160.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1071940192 162.83.160.166 (Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:09:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:09:52 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132324 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1a4dc12ba62e659b98b9f5@news.odyssey.net... > In article in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born wrote: > >none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other > >people, > > Isn't there a magic Ring in one of the tales of the Arabian Nights, > that controls a genie? Yep. A minor genie. (Subservient to the one in the lamp.) True. > Did Wagner actually invent the Ring he used? I thought he adapted it > from earlier materials in German and Norse myths. In Volsunga Saga there's a dwarf in the Rhine with a ring that attracts gold. Loki steals it and the dwarf places a curse on it. The curse is not resolved until the treasure is put in the Rhine -- we are to infer (used correctly, Stan!) that eventually it all drifted back, curse-clean, to the dwarf. That much Wagner got from saga. It was ENTIRELY his idea to make this the world-ruling ring. There is no precedent whatever for any such thing. Wagner was at the pinnacle of culture (whether you loved him or hated him) for fifty years after his death. Forty of those years were Tolkien's first forty. No way you could be a scholar and an intellectual and interested in Norse myth and not be subjected to heavy doses of Wagner. Tolkien did not set out to create something Wagnerian (and it's NOT a Wagnerian creation), but when he needed the ring to have significance, that's where he turned, without even thinking about it. Rings of power were in the air. Wagner put them there. So they're both round and gold and give the possessor power to rule other folk. No previous ring does anything of the sort. Tolkien disingenuously said this was a coincidence. It wasn't. But he didn't like Wagner AT ALL and wasn't going to cite him as a source. I don't know why so many Tolkien fans are upset by this. (I'd like to know; they never explain.) They're not upset by all the other stuff Tolkien ripped off from saga material. Every writer does this to some extent. (Is anyone upset that nearly all Frank Herbert's original creation turned out to be from Arabic culture?) The question is: did the writer use the material he chose to take in a highly original and artistic way, putting in his own inventions and obsessions in a convincing, artistically satisfying manner? The answer, for both Wagner and Tolkien, is surely Yes. (F. Herbert too.) (I wouldn't say this about P. Jackson. But we're fighting that battle on other threads.) Tsar Parmathule ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:36:20 -0600 From: "James Hyder" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:34:44 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.47.105.246 X-Trace: sv3-TrpmNq8gLSEjhWojMhmb6AgI2HrOTc0F5EpwhEQUBOwZZjqkW2XI/A1rfWZL48u6LqCxhXhyMtTAjsa!NmaXw0fB+mJy4HaJJkuQkd3PeuqGaOzfk9b3iCMIxK/FlfuxDApeeESZJGVyWA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132330 "Stan Brown" wrote A Tsar Is Born wrote: > >none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other > >people, > > Isn't there a magic Ring in one of the tales of the Arabian Nights, > that controls a genie? > > Did Wagner actually invent the Ring he used? I thought he adapted it > from earlier materials in German and Norse myths. > Well the Germanic myths (mostly) evolved from Norse myths, right? And most of Middle Earth is Norse mythology drawn through an English and Continental filter, more or less. I am new to this NG, but not by any means to Tolkien. I trust most everyone here knows of the many, many connections between Norse myth and LoTR. As to the One Ring idea, I am not certain. Odin certainly had at least one ring - an important one - don't know that it was a "ruling ring" but it seems there were other lesser rings associated with it, correct? JH ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:29:13 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132357 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Stan Brown wrote: >Did Wagner actually invent the Ring he used? I thought he adapted it >from earlier materials in German and Norse myths. Thanks to the several folks who answered this. Short answer: there was a ring, but not one ring to rule the world. In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born wrote: >Tolkien disingenuously said this was a coincidence. It wasn't. I agree, it couldn't have been. "Both rings are round, and there the resemblance ceases" is indeed disingenuous. Whether he liked Wagner or not, as an educated man Tolkien could not possibly have been unaware of Wagner's Ring cycle. That doesn't mean Tolkien was rehashing Wagner, it just means Wagner was part of the cultural milieu, which Tolkien inevitably drew from. >But he didn't like Wagner AT ALL and wasn't going to cite him as a source. > >I don't know why so many Tolkien fans are upset by this. As should be obvious from the FAQ of the Rings, I am not one of those who become "upset" by comparisons between Tolkien's ring and Wagner's. But then I was unaware that "many" did. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:50:22 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a230.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1071953828 30672 212.205.240.230 (20 Dec 2003 20:57:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:57:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.belwue.de!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132369 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote in message news:An%Eb.5215$YS4.1013@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... > > So they're both round and gold and give the possessor power to rule other > folk. > No previous ring does anything of the sort. > Tolkien disingenuously said this was a coincidence. It wasn't. > But he didn't like Wagner AT ALL and wasn't going to cite him as a source. > > I don't know why so many Tolkien fans are upset by this. (I'd like to know; > they never explain.) Um... which Tolkien fans have been upset by such comparisons? I don't remember one, let alone "many" of them in these newsgroups at least... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 06:26:53 +0200 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: "Morgil" NNTP-Posting-Host: cs78173093.pp.htv.fi (62.78.173.93) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1071980812 9364677 62.78.173.93 ([81911]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!cs78173093.pp.htv.FI!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132456 "A Tsar Is Born" kirjoitti viestissä:An%Eb.5215$YS4.1013@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... > So they're both round and gold and give the possessor power to rule other > folk. > No previous ring does anything of the sort. > Tolkien disingenuously said this was a coincidence. It wasn't. > But he didn't like Wagner AT ALL and wasn't going to cite him as a source. > > I don't know why so many Tolkien fans are upset by this. (I'd like to know; > they never explain.) Because it's a FILTHY LIE!! Tolkien stole the concept of Ruling Ring from Robert E. Howard's "Phoenix in the Sword" - along with the idea of Broken Sword. Hrrrmph! Morgil ###### From: Hasmonean Tazmanian User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:50:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1072043449 63.139.135.29 (Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:50:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:50:49 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.nextoneserver.com!news.assertive.ca!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132737 A Tsar Is Born wrote: > "Lord Jubjub" wrote in message > news:jubjub-35F05B.17020619122003@corp.supernews.com... > >>Interesting article in the New Yorker: >> >>http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?031222crat_atlarge > > > Ross is one of their best critics. > But anyone who's hung around this ng for a while knows QUITE WELL that > Ross's crack about a conspiracy of silence by Tolkien fans about Wagner's > influence is nonsense -- we've gone on and on about it. > > (I'm one of those who insists that a Ring of Power was Wagner's invention, > and Tolkien found it there -- Wagnerian ideas being difficult to avoid in > the half century before LotR began to be written, and we know that JRRT saw > Wagner's Ring and disliked it. There are a lot of people who seem hurt by > that, but none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other > people, and no one can deny that JRRT knew Wagner's work quite well.) > It's like the problem creationists face. 'The earth was created only 6,000 years ago.' 'But what about the older fossils?' 'They must have been created and destroyed on the nth day, or in the flood.' Similarly, how can someone argue that Tolkien created the whole story in his head, when you can clearly see older 'story forms' that existed before he wrote it, and so closely (but not completely) resemble it? No matter what the Bible purports to say, or what Tolkien says, the truth of the fact remains, that there were other fairy tales with Ring stories, before LOTR. Hasan ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:47:37 -0600 From: "Sue Bilstein" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:51:06 +1300 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 218-101-75-62.dialup.clear.net.nz Message-ID: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> X-Original-Trace: 22 Dec 2003 13:48:18 +1300, 218-101-75-62.dialup.clear.net.nz Organization: CLEAR Net New Zealand http://www.clear.net.nz - Complaints abuse@clear.net.nz Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.97.37.6 X-Trace: sv3-fzPFQrDOfPdBuDtR1PITEaIQ1I3IXwcyExisehd/YA7GDJf3bGfErVW88tW+IO/x4MshXyl7XVyRTg/!7p26RDC2bMdeTVAU8B8g885K4VAsiACWIUV0vBO6IRZYjW2PCn022kA= X-Complaints-To: Complaints to abuse@clear.net.nz X-DMCA-Complaints-To: Complaints to abuse@clear.net.nz X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.clear.net.nz!news.clear.net.nz.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132779 "Hasmonean Tazmanian" wrote in message news:ZAoFb.40080$2We1.6266@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > A Tsar Is Born wrote: > > "Lord Jubjub" wrote in message > > news:jubjub-35F05B.17020619122003@corp.supernews.com... > > > > (I'm one of those who insists that a Ring of Power was Wagner's invention, > > and Tolkien found it there -- Wagnerian ideas being difficult to avoid in > > the half century before LotR began to be written, and we know that JRRT saw > > Wagner's Ring and disliked it. There are a lot of people who seem hurt by > > that, but none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other > > people, and no one can deny that JRRT knew Wagner's work quite well.) > > It's like the problem creationists face. 'The earth was created only > 6,000 years ago.' 'But what about the older fossils?' 'They must have > been created and destroyed on the nth day, or in the flood.' > > Similarly, how can someone argue that Tolkien created the whole story in > his head, when you can clearly see older 'story forms' that existed > before he wrote it, and so closely (but not completely) resemble it? > > No matter what the Bible purports to say, or what Tolkien says, the > truth of the fact remains, that there were other fairy tales with Ring > stories, before LOTR. > What I want to know is, when will Peter Jackson give us a version of Wagner's Ring cycle? ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:15:23 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132784 On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:53:43 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: >(I'm one of those who insists that a Ring of Power was Wagner's invention, >and Tolkien found it there -- Wagnerian ideas being difficult to avoid in >the half century before LotR began to be written, and we know that JRRT saw >Wagner's Ring and disliked it. There are a lot of people who seem hurt by >that, but none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other >people, and no one can deny that JRRT knew Wagner's work quite well.) Well, you are wrong. Tolkien got the concept of a Ring from the same place that Wagner did, not from Wagner. Tolkien learned to read Old Norse at a rather young age and he loved it. It is unclear whether he was really an opera fan or not. (Yes, I know that he refers to at least one in his letters.) And it is obvious from HoME and "Letters ..." that Tolkien began the LotR without any idea about the Ring at all. However the Ring was the only open end that he could think of from _The Hobbit_. the softrat "You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy. -- Steven Wright ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:18:07 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <9hhcuvs26crrjoj69rt0tqlpbuqmj33b0i@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.222.61.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132785 On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:29:13 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: > >As should be obvious from the FAQ of the Rings, I am not one of >those who become "upset" by comparisons between Tolkien's ring and >Wagner's. But then I was unaware that "many" did. Well, *Tolkien* did, as was cited in this thread.... the softrat "You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Half the people you know are below average. -- Steven Wright ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:37:15 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132791 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Hasmonean Tazmanian wrote: >It's like the problem creationists face. 'The earth was created only >6,000 years ago.' 'But what about the older fossils?' 'They must have >been created and destroyed on the nth day, or in the flood.' I thought the answer was that their god created the world 6000 years ago but put in the fossils, the differential amounts of various radioactive isotopes, and all the other evidence to test men's faith. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Hasmonean Tazmanian User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> In-Reply-To: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 01:54:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1072058088 63.139.135.29 (Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:54:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:54:48 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132796 Sue Bilstein wrote: >>No matter what the Bible purports to say, or what Tolkien says, the >>truth of the fact remains, that there were other fairy tales with Ring >>stories, before LOTR. >> > > > What I want to know is, when will Peter Jackson give us a version of > Wagner's Ring cycle? > > When he can get CGM (computer generated music) to cut down on the expenses of a) translating the dialogue into all the languages and b) rewriting the music to fit the translations. ;) The first time I ever heard Wagner I couldn't stop listening to it for hours, even during school time (which I missed for it) because it was the most loud and bombastic and crass and crude and vulgar and blathering thing I had ever heard in my entire life. But I knew nothing about music back then, or even now. ;) I loved German opera and music, just listening to the sound of the language was amazing for me. Hasan ###### From: "MasterDebater" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:14:19 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!news.completel.fr!ircam.fr!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132838 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote in message news:An%Eb.5215$YS4.1013@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... > > It was ENTIRELY his idea to make this the world-ruling ring. > There is no precedent whatever for any such thing. > Wagner was at the pinnacle of culture (whether you loved him or hated him) > for fifty years after his death. Forty of those years were Tolkien's first > forty. No way you could be a scholar and an intellectual and interested in > Norse myth and not be subjected to heavy doses of Wagner. > Tolkien did not set out to create something Wagnerian (and it's NOT a > Wagnerian creation), but when he needed the ring to have significance, > that's where he turned, without even thinking about it. Rings of power were > in the air. Wagner put them there. > > So they're both round and gold and give the possessor power to rule other > folk. Agreed. I am often confused when Tolkien fans deny the Tolkien/Wagner connection > No previous ring does anything of the sort. > Tolkien disingenuously said this was a coincidence. It wasn't. > But he didn't like Wagner AT ALL and wasn't going to cite him as a source. > > I don't know why so many Tolkien fans are upset by this. (I'd like to know; > they never explain.) I always assumed it was due to the negative image which Wagner got due to German Nationalism and especially Nazism ###### From: "MasterDebater" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:21:16 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132840 "James Hyder" wrote in message news:meGdndeas4UJFXmi4p2dnA@comcast.com... > > "Stan Brown" wrote > myth and LoTR. As to the One Ring idea, I am not certain. Odin certainly > had at least one ring - an important one - don't know that it was a "ruling > ring" but it seems there were other lesser rings associated with it, > correct? > But Odin's ring Draupnir had no power to control the world, and the lesser rings which it produced were merely golden rings, I don't remember them ever having any significant power, or any power at all. ###### From: "MasterDebater" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:30:16 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132843 "the softrat" wrote in message news:l2gcuvku2e9ati598hom88476qbfj5g3rb@4ax.com... > On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:53:43 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" > wrote: > > >(I'm one of those who insists that a Ring of Power was Wagner's invention, > >and Tolkien found it there -- Wagnerian ideas being difficult to avoid in > >the half century before LotR began to be written, and we know that JRRT saw > >Wagner's Ring and disliked it. There are a lot of people who seem hurt by > >that, but none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other > >people, and no one can deny that JRRT knew Wagner's work quite well.) > > Well, you are wrong. Tolkien got the concept of a Ring from the same > place that Wagner did, not from Wagner. Tolkien learned to read Old > Norse at a rather young age and he loved it. It is unclear whether he > was really an opera fan or not. (Yes, I know that he refers to at > least one in his letters.) And it is obvious from HoME and "Letters > ..." that Tolkien began the LotR without any idea about the Ring at > all. However the Ring was the only open end that he could think of > from _The Hobbit_. > Not sure what your point is. I believe it is clear from the thread and the referred-to article that 1. There existed no 'world-ruling' rings prior to Wagner. If you can demonstrate one, please do. I have always assumed that Tolkien got the one-ring-to-rule-them-all, all-powerful, world-ruling-ring idea from Wagner, since, though examples of magical and even powerful rings appear in earlier Norse material, there exist, to my knowledge, no rings with the ability to control the world. 2. Tolkien was well aware of Wagner's work. ###### From: deanhazelfan88@yahoo.co.uk (Dean Hazelfan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: 22 Dec 2003 00:12:44 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <532da4a3.0312220012.1fd7db46@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.92.194.12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1072080782 16842 127.0.0.1 (22 Dec 2003 08:13:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:13:02 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132892 (*delurks again*) Another possible source of inspiration is Edith Nesbit's story "The Enchanted Castle", where characters find what they think is an ordinary magic ring of invisibility, but it later turns out to be a much more powerful ring and cursed by its creator so that all its magic turns to evil unless its used by those who are pure of heart. Tolkien just made his ring a little bit more powerful and a little bit more evil... (*retreats back into lurkdom again*) ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:00:04 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132978 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Hasmonean Tazmanian wrote: >The first time I ever heard Wagner I couldn't stop listening to it for >hours, Well, yes, if you want to get through even the overture. :-) > even during school time (which I missed for it) because it was >the most loud and bombastic and crass and crude and vulgar and >blathering thing I had ever heard in my entire life. I think it was Mark Twain who said Wagner's music is much better than it sounds. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:02:05 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <532da4a3.0312220012.1fd7db46@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132979 In article <532da4a3.0312220012.1fd7db46@posting.google.com> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Dean Hazelfan wrote: >Another possible source of inspiration is Edith Nesbit's story "The >Enchanted Castle", where characters find what they think is an >ordinary magic ring of invisibility, but it later turns out to be a >much more powerful ring and cursed by its creator so that all its >magic turns to evil unless its used by those who are pure of heart. > >Tolkien just made his ring a little bit more powerful and a little bit >more evil... I had forgotten about this. E Nesbit's books were a staple for older children around the turn of the preceding century. He certainly would have known of them, though I don't believe he mentions her as one of his admired authors in /Letters/. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Hasmonean Tazmanian User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Message-ID: <0sGFb.147194$%TO.145199@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:10:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1072116604 63.139.135.29 (Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:10:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:10:04 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132997 Stan Brown wrote: > In article > in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, Hasmonean Tazmanian wrote: > >>The first time I ever heard Wagner I couldn't stop listening to it for >>hours, > > > Well, yes, if you want to get through even the overture. :-) > > >>even during school time (which I missed for it) because it was >>the most loud and bombastic and crass and crude and vulgar and >>blathering thing I had ever heard in my entire life. > > > I think it was Mark Twain who said Wagner's music is much better > than it sounds. > The first I ever heard of Wagner was in the scene in "King Solomon's Mines" (an old movie) where the German on the expedition always carries a gramphone and loved playing Wagner, and the Turkish guy in the expedition hated it. When the gramophone get's lost in a mud pit one day the guy says 'thank God I won't have to listen to that infernal Wagner any more.' It was just a film, but in real life some people can't stand his music. I just loved it though. Hasan ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.60 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1072131751 213.101.77.60 (Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:22:31 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:22:31 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-77-60.swipnet.se Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:23:24 +0100 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133084 "MasterDebater" skrev i meddelandet news:vucsakm338g7a8@news.supernews.com... [snip] > But Odin's ring Draupnir had no power to control the world, and the lesser > rings which it produced were merely golden rings, I don't remember them ever > having any significant power, or any power at all. No. They just made him very rich. "MINE! All mine! MY GOLDEN RINGS! HAA HAA HAA!" Öjevind ###### From: "Crimson Castle" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> <0sGFb.147194$%TO.145199@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 11 Organization: www.pbase.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:04:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.18.241 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1072166681 144.132.18.241 (Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:04:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:04:41 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133213 "Hasmonean Tazmanian" wrote in message news:0sGFb.147194$% > Wagner any more.' It was just a film, but in real life some people > can't stand his music. I just loved it though. It depends. I can't stand Wagner when its being played on a crappy sound system. But when its played on a good Hi-Fi Stereo its fantastic - I'm referring to the productions with good performers and the sweeter voiced female singers - not the women singers built like Panzer tanks. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:09:08 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u061.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1072289752 81262 62.103.251.61 (24 Dec 2003 18:15:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:15:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133561 "MasterDebater" wrote in message news:vucsrgh2te8ke5@news.supernews.com... > > Not sure what your point is. I believe it is clear from the thread and the > referred-to article that > 1. There existed no 'world-ruling' rings prior to Wagner. If you can > demonstrate one, please do. I have always assumed that Tolkien got the > one-ring-to-rule-them-all, all-powerful, world-ruling-ring idea from Wagner, > since, though examples of magical and even powerful rings appear in earlier > Norse material, there exist, to my knowledge, no rings with the ability to > control the world. Seeing the drafts of the story, it seems as if Tolkien steadily moved his ring to become more and more powerful, until it simply reached the role it has in the finished work. And he made it into a ring, because as ring it was already, when no such hints of power existed, when it's only ability was to make the wearer invisible... If Tolkien had *begun* with the concept of a ultra-powerful ring, that might be a clue... but it seems to have simply ended up as one under the normal course of Tolkien's creativity... > 2. Tolkien was well aware of Wagner's work. Which make unconscious influence a strong possibility, I'd say. Aris Katsaris ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 24 Dec 2003 18:20:15 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mightymartianca@yahoo.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: tandem.alberni.net (64.141.6.11) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072290015 12687689 64.141.6.11 ([211612]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!tandem.alberni.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133562 On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:09:08 +0200, Aris Katsaris wrote: > > "MasterDebater" wrote in message > news:vucsrgh2te8ke5@news.supernews.com... > >> 2. Tolkien was well aware of Wagner's work. > > Which make unconscious influence a strong possibility, I'd say. I agree that Wagner likely influenced Tolkien. I do not think that it was a conscious influence, but rather more of a background one, like all the Northern European myths and legends. Since the History of the Lord of the Rings shows this to be a natural development based upon Tolkien using Bilbo's magic ring as an influence, I see no reason to believe that Tolkien actually sat there and said "I'll use Wagner's idea". -- Aaron Clausen tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:56:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.136.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1072292189 162.83.136.200 (Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:56:29 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:56:29 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133568 > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > > "MasterDebater" wrote in message > > news:vucsrgh2te8ke5@news.supernews.com... > > > >> 2. Tolkien was well aware of Wagner's work. > > > > Which make unconscious influence a strong possibility, I'd say. Precisely. > I agree that Wagner likely influenced Tolkien. I do not think that it was a > conscious influence, but rather more of a background one, like all the > Northern European myths and legends. > > Since the History of the Lord of the Rings shows this to be a natural > development based upon Tolkien using Bilbo's magic ring as an influence, I > see no reason to believe that Tolkien actually sat there and said "I'll use > Wagner's idea". I don't think anyone says he did. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:34:13 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133673 On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:56:29 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > >Sum,buddy said: >> I agree that Wagner likely influenced Tolkien. I do not think that it was >a >> conscious influence, but rather more of a background one, like all the >> Northern European myths and legends. >> >> Since the History of the Lord of the Rings shows this to be a natural >> development based upon Tolkien using Bilbo's magic ring as an influence, I >> see no reason to believe that Tolkien actually sat there and said "I'll >use >> Wagner's idea". > >I don't think anyone says he did. > Since I have BOTH read the Norse Legends (partly in Old Norse) AND read and listen to the Wagner operas countless times (Great Music!), I do not believe that Wagner influenced Tolkien in any way. I believe that the Norse Legends influenced BOTH of them (differently). BTW, I see little evidence that Tolkien was influenced by _Das Nibelungenlied_, the medieval German poem. Before you suggest a connection between Wagner and Tolkien, please read _The Elder Edda_. Tolkien did. (Allegedly he LOVED it.) Of course it wouldn't hurt to read _The Kalevala_ either, but that has little bearing on the Wagner question. the softrat "You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions? ###### From: Caeruleo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:53:11 -0600 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hunt-pri2-a30.txucom.net (209.34.8.76) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072414630 13248108 209.34.8.76 ([141024]) X-Orig-Path: caeruleo User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!hunt-pri2-a30.txucom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133784 In article , "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > "Lord Jubjub" wrote in message > news:jubjub-35F05B.17020619122003@corp.supernews.com... > > Interesting article in the New Yorker: > > > > http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?031222crat_atlarge > > Ross is one of their best critics. > But anyone who's hung around this ng for a while knows QUITE WELL that > Ross's crack about a conspiracy of silence by Tolkien fans about Wagner's > influence is nonsense -- we've gone on and on about it. > > (I'm one of those who insists that a Ring of Power was Wagner's invention, > and Tolkien found it there -- Wagnerian ideas being difficult to avoid in > the half century before LotR began to be written, and we know that JRRT saw > Wagner's Ring and disliked it. There are a lot of people who seem hurt by > that, but none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other > people, and no one can deny that JRRT knew Wagner's work quite well.) I think it could be "denied," since I am not aware of anything Tolkien wrote in which he demonstrated much knowledge at all about Wagner. He seems to have been quite familiar with the Northern European legends on which Wagner's Ring was based, however. I am admittedly unclear as to whether or not any ring made from the Rheingold, or indeed any ring at all which posessed power, is present in those older legends of Sigurd/Siegfried, or whether the ring forged by Alberich is an invention of Wagner. Anyone? ###### From: Caeruleo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:00:10 -0600 Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: hunt-pri2-a30.txucom.net (209.34.8.76) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072415049 13248108 209.34.8.76 ([141024]) X-Orig-Path: caeruleo User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!hunt-pri2-a30.txucom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133785 In article , Stan Brown wrote: > In article > in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, Hasmonean Tazmanian wrote: > >The first time I ever heard Wagner I couldn't stop listening to it for > >hours, > > Well, yes, if you want to get through even the overture. :-) Lol! My musicology professor used to put it this way: "Tristan & Isolde drink the love potion, & then they sing about that for 200 pages. Later, after she's been married to King Marke, they meet illicitly & sing about that for 200 pages. Tristan later dies for 200 pages." > > even during school time (which I missed for it) because it was > >the most loud and bombastic and crass and crude and vulgar and > >blathering thing I had ever heard in my entire life. > > I think it was Mark Twain who said Wagner's music is much better > than it sounds. Really? I'd say that it sounds much better than it is. ;-) ###### From: Caeruleo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:03:08 -0600 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> <0sGFb.147194$%TO.145199@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hunt-pri2-a30.txucom.net (209.34.8.76) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072415227 13248108 209.34.8.76 ([141024]) X-Orig-Path: caeruleo User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!hunt-pri2-a30.txucom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133786 In article , "Crimson Castle" wrote: > "Hasmonean Tazmanian" wrote in message news:0sGFb.147194$% > > > Wagner any more.' It was just a film, but in real life some people > > can't stand his music. I just loved it though. > > It depends. I can't stand Wagner when its being played on a crappy sound > system. But when its played on a good Hi-Fi Stereo its fantastic - I'm > referring to the productions with good performers and the sweeter voiced > female singers - not the women singers built like Panzer tanks. With wobbly kilometer-wide vibratos. For how Wagner *ought* to be sung by sopranos, listen to Kirsten Flagstad, Elizabeth Grummer, & Elanor Steber. ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: 26 Dec 2003 05:45:47 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.net (68.170.200.65) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072417547 13025517 68.170.200.65 ([137949]) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133798 the softrat wrote in news:sd5luvclmu3ptto9r7nrphaqpmjfev7gn3@4ax.com: > read _The Elder Edda_. > Tolkien did. (Allegedly he LOVED it.) Of course it wouldn't > hurt to read _The Kalevala_ either, but that has little bearing > on the Wagner question. > Do you know of any good english translations ? I have a yen to read these, although not because of Tolkien, and not too many people I know have ever heard of these tales, much less are able to recommend good versions. I am willing, and even eager, to read more than one translation, if any are available. I would prefer to read translations that do them justice, if possible. -- mc ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 05:51:53 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c129.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133826 In article , "TeaLady (Mari C.)" wrote: > the softrat wrote in > news:sd5luvclmu3ptto9r7nrphaqpmjfev7gn3@4ax.com: > > > read _The Elder Edda_. > > Tolkien did. (Allegedly he LOVED it.) Of course it wouldn't > > hurt to read _The Kalevala_ either, but that has little bearing > > on the Wagner question. > > > > Do you know of any good english translations ? I have a yen to > read these, although not because of Tolkien, and not too many > people I know have ever heard of these tales, much less are able to > recommend good versions. saf scandinavian-american-foundation has translations of both eddas from about 1930 that get republished from time to time they also have translations of other ancient and modern works you can also find these in the dustier shelves of used book stores ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:15:51 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133970 On 26 Dec 2003 05:45:47 GMT, "TeaLady (Mari C.)" wrote: > >Do you know of any good english translations ? I have a yen to >read these, although not because of Tolkien, and not too many >people I know have ever heard of these tales, much less are able to >recommend good versions. > >I am willing, and even eager, to read more than one translation, if >any are available. I would prefer to read translations that do >them justice, if possible. There are several translations available of the Elder Edda. I personally think that the one by Lee Hollander is best, but each has its own merits. I have only seen one translation of the Kalevala and I read no Finnish, so I cannot evaluate it for readability or accuracy. It is the one sold under the Penguin Classics series. Both of these are available on Amazon.com. PS: Although I probably read more epic poetry than the average rat, I still think that it has a boring tendency to go on, and on, and on, and on.... I have not managed to force my way all the way through either the Song of Roland or The Iliad. I never tried the Nibelungenlied. I have not finnished the Kalevala yet. the softrat "LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Of all the people I've met you're certainly one of them. ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 05:06:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1072501589 65.26.218.54 (Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:06:29 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:06:29 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.nextoneserver.com!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:133995 "the softrat" wrote in message news:uqtpuvo7g8k37n4iqpskvmfvipooekrp08@4ax.com... > I have not finnished the Kalevala yet. *Finnished*? Was that a pun Softy? :-) -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:06:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.169.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1072555609 162.84.169.191 (Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:06:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:06:49 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134104 "the softrat" wrote in message news:sd5luvclmu3ptto9r7nrphaqpmjfev7gn3@4ax.com... > Since I have BOTH read the Norse Legends (partly in Old Norse) AND > read and listen to the Wagner operas countless times (Great Music!), I > do not believe that Wagner influenced Tolkien in any way. I believe > that the Norse Legends influenced BOTH of them (differently). All right, big talker. Give us ONE example in Norse legend -- just ONE -- of a world-ruling Ring. Nope. Wagner made it up, and Tolkien got the idea from him. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:12:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.169.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1072555979 162.84.169.191 (Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:12:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:12:59 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134107 "Sue Bilstein" wrote in message news:3fe63f52@clear.net.nz... > What I want to know is, when will Peter Jackson give us a version of > Wagner's Ring cycle? There are far more monstrous defacements of Wagner being staged around the world than Jackson ever dreamed of inflicting on Tolkien. As long as he gets good singers and a good band, and doesn't CUT stuff (as Zeffirelli's films cut Verdi to ribbons), I think he might do a decent job at it. Anyway, no worse than every Wagner lover has seen on stage after stage. It would be nice to see a good dragon. I've never been to a Ring with a tolerable dragon. Seattle used to have a real bear (in the Charles Ludlam version, the bear went down on Siegfried), and lots of people do the birds, frog and mermaid well, but I've never seen a decent dragon. The Chereau/Bayreuth Ring (available on DVD) has a good dragon in Rheingold, but not in Siegfried. I've never seen a really good swan in Lohengrin either, though Seattle sort of managed that. As I was leaving one performance, I heard a lady say to another, "I never saw a swan that could paddle BACKWARDS before." I snarled, "Well, you never saw a swan that was really a Duke before, did you?" Tsar Parmathule ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:23:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.169.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1072556619 162.84.169.191 (Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:23:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:23:39 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134109 "Caeruleo" wrote in message news:caeruleo-BAC1BE.22531125122003@news.fu-berlin.de... > > (I'm one of those who insists that a Ring of Power was Wagner's invention, > > and Tolkien found it there -- Wagnerian ideas being difficult to avoid in > > the half century before LotR began to be written, and we know that JRRT saw > > Wagner's Ring and disliked it. There are a lot of people who seem hurt by > > that, but none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other > > people, and no one can deny that JRRT knew Wagner's work quite well.) > > I think it could be "denied," since I am not aware of anything Tolkien > wrote in which he demonstrated much knowledge at all about Wagner. He > seems to have been quite familiar with the Northern European legends on > which Wagner's Ring was based, however. I am admittedly unclear as to > whether or not any ring made from the Rheingold, or indeed any ring at > all which posessed power, is present in those older legends of > Sigurd/Siegfried, or whether the ring forged by Alberich is an invention > of Wagner. Anyone? Tolkien does not demonstrate much knowledge of Wagner, but Wagner was as influential then as, say, rock music is today, but with intellectual class. That is to say, even those who do not like rock, know a great deal about it because it's impossible to avoid. As it happens, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis attended an entire performance of the Ring at Covent Garden (standing room) and studied the librettos very carefully before they went. Tolkien hated what Wagner had done with the myths. But he knew about Wagner very very very well. (Everyone who read a book in a European language knew a lot about Wagner.) In the Sagas: There is a Ring belonging to the dwarf Andvari. It attracts gold. Loki steals it, and is forced to give it to the Dwarf-King, who is then murdered by his son Fafnir, who turns into a dragon. Fafnir's brother Reginn then raises Sigurd to slay Fafnir, intending to kill him and take the ring. But Sigurd kills Reginn too, and gives the ring to Brynhild. Later, disguised as Gunnar, he takes it back and gives it to Gudrun. She shows it to Brynhild, thus proving Sigurd and Gunnar have tricked her. Brynhild then arranges the murder of Sigurd and kills herself. Gunnar hides the gold in the Rhine so Attila the Hun can't get at it. The ring returns to Andvari. It has NO other power. Wagner invented the world-ruling Ring and Tolkien got it from Wagner. Softrat denies this, but he's wrong wrong wrong and can't bring himself to admit he has no evidence of any alternative. Denials of this statement should mention other world-ruling rings before Tolkien's time. (There are none.) The Ring in Nesbit's Enchanted Castle is, of course, also derived from Wagner's. She was a great friend and platonic lover of G.B. Shaw, the leading Wagnerite in England, and knew the operas well. There are many magical items in her stories (which I have always loved) but none of them are rings that rule the world. Even if they were, she would have had to admit she got it from Wagner, as Tolkien did. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: 27 Dec 2003 21:17:49 GMT Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-3561.aardvark.dialup.pol.co.uk (217.134.13.233) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072559869 14171929 217.134.13.233 ([134236]) User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!modem-3561.aardvark.dialup.pol.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134120 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote in news:fJlHb.7182$tY5.2674@nwrdny01.gnilink.net: > "Sue Bilstein" wrote in message > news:3fe63f52@clear.net.nz... >> What I want to know is, when will Peter Jackson give us a version >> of Wagner's Ring cycle? > > There are far more monstrous defacements of Wagner being staged > around the world than Jackson ever dreamed of inflicting on > Tolkien. What's Opera, Doc? > As long as he gets good singers and a good band, and doesn't CUT > stuff (as Zeffirelli's films cut Verdi to ribbons), I think he > might do a decent job at it. Anyway, no worse than every Wagner > lover has seen on stage after stage. Ideally there should be lots of carrots and a main chawacter who can't enunciate pwoperly. -- Cheers, ymt. Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:23:10 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134125 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born wrote: >It would be nice to see a good dragon. I've never been to a Ring with a >tolerable dragon. I think it may be a mistake to try to get too realistic. The dragon in Bergman's film of /The Magic Flute/ is obviously a person in a dragon suit, and it never bothered me. >Seattle used to have a real bear (in the Charles Ludlam >version, the bear went down on Siegfried) [leers] Does that mean what I think it does? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: 27 Dec 2003 21:23:53 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.net (68.170.200.65) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072560233 14592247 68.170.200.65 ([137949]) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134123 mair_fheal@yahoo.com (cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) wrote in news:mair_fheal-2612030551530001@c129.ppp.tsoft.com: > In article , "TeaLady (Mari > C.)" wrote: > >> the softrat wrote in >> news:sd5luvclmu3ptto9r7nrphaqpmjfev7gn3@4ax.com: >> >> > read _The Elder Edda_. >> > Tolkien did. (Allegedly he LOVED it.) Of course it wouldn't >> > hurt to read _The Kalevala_ either, but that has little >> > bearing on the Wagner question. >> > >> >> Do you know of any good english translations ? I have a yen >> to read these, although not because of Tolkien, and not too >> many people I know have ever heard of these tales, much less >> are able to recommend good versions. > > saf scandinavian-american-foundation has translations of both > eddas from about 1930 that get republished from time to time > they also have translations of other ancient and modern works > > you can also find these in the dustier shelves of used book > stores > Thanks. There are a few (or were a few) decent used stores in Cleveland, I can see if they have any. -- TeaLady / mari conroy "Stated to me for a fact. I only tell it as I got it. I am willing to believe it. I can believe anything." Sam Clemens Spressobean at yahoo has a spam problem. A better address is culcie at yahoo dot com. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:22:44 -0600 From: "Sue Bilstein" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:26:28 +1300 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 218-101-64-176.dialup.clear.net.nz Message-ID: <3fedf851@clear.net.nz> X-Original-Trace: 28 Dec 2003 10:23:29 +1300, 218-101-64-176.dialup.clear.net.nz Organization: CLEAR Net New Zealand http://www.clear.net.nz - Complaints abuse@clear.net.nz Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.97.37.6 X-Trace: sv3-FMVYjCDI5Lghx6IoMdN8dKrH2uYlCddLGull46FxuTAfgGkWs5qHVhU4hF515cYxDZRnyb1GUK1jkBP!XSCUoSsxDnMW68nZb7/krmoOTlCIiNMHOxcYoxevyWChHJ5z8tzgSbo= X-Complaints-To: Complaints to abuse@clear.net.nz X-DMCA-Complaints-To: Complaints to abuse@clear.net.nz X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.clear.net.nz!news.clear.net.nz.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134122 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote in message news:fJlHb.7182$tY5.2674@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... > > "Sue Bilstein" wrote in message > news:3fe63f52@clear.net.nz... > > What I want to know is, when will Peter Jackson give us a version of > > Wagner's Ring cycle? > > There are far more monstrous defacements of Wagner being staged around the > world than Jackson ever dreamed of inflicting on Tolkien. > > As long as he gets good singers and a good band, and doesn't CUT stuff (as > Zeffirelli's films cut Verdi to ribbons), I think he might do a decent job > at it. Anyway, no worse than every Wagner lover has seen on stage after > stage. I was asking only semi-sarcastically. I'd love to see a Ring cycle with really good, realistic effects. Real dragon, real rainbow bridge, Walkures riding on the wind, all that. Only thing is, surely PJ'd have to substitute something with wider general appeal for all that screechy singing. Maybe he could get Andrew Lloyd Webber to write a score. > > It would be nice to see a good dragon. I've never been to a Ring with a > tolerable dragon. Seattle used to have a real bear (in the Charles Ludlam > version, the bear went down on Siegfried), and lots of people do the birds, > frog and mermaid well, but I've never seen a decent dragon. The > Chereau/Bayreuth Ring (available on DVD) has a good dragon in Rheingold, but > not in Siegfried. Did Chereau do the 19th-century Ring, with Odin in a top-hat and the Rhine-maidens as prostitutes? I haven't seen it, just looked at the covers of the videos. There was a very abstract Ring too, I vaguely recall. Most of the effects done with lighting...? > > I've never seen a really good swan in Lohengrin either, though Seattle sort > of managed that. As I was leaving one performance, I heard a lady say to > another, "I never saw a swan that could paddle BACKWARDS before." I snarled, > "Well, you never saw a swan that was really a Duke before, did you?" > ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: 27 Dec 2003 21:26:45 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.net (68.170.200.65) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072560405 14592247 68.170.200.65 ([137949]) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134124 the softrat wrote in news:uqtpuvo7g8k37n4iqpskvmfvipooekrp08@4ax.com: > PS: Although I probably read more epic poetry than the average > rat, I still think that it has a boring tendency to go on, and > on, and on, and on.... I have not managed to force my way all > the way through either the Song of Roland or The Iliad. I never > tried the Nibelungenlied. I have not finnished the Kalevala > yet. > > The Iliad wasn't so bad, for me at least. It did go on and on, but I read it over a lazy summer vacation week (a few hours each day, in the mid-day heat, under a tree; best way to read anything that just goes on and on) and that was about the right "speed". The Nibelungenlied was read the same way, later in the summer. I also read a "prose" translation of it that wasn't too bad. Thanks -- mc ###### From: Matthew Bladen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:14:03 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-133-56-254.in-addr.btopenworld.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1072563243 4587 81.133.56.254 (27 Dec 2003 22:14:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:14:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!news-peer0-test!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134134 In article , A Tsar Is Born says... > As it happens, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis attended an entire performance of the > Ring at Covent Garden (standing room) and studied the librettos very > carefully before they went. Tolkien hated what Wagner had done with the > myths. But he knew about Wagner very very very well. (Everyone who read a > book in a European language knew a lot about Wagner.) FWIW, I seem to recollect that Lewis was quite a Wagner fan. How much this impinged on Tolkien-the-bandersnatch, I couldn't guess... -- Matthew ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> <3fedf851@clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 83 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <%BnHb.7366$lt.944@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:21:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.169.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1072563707 162.84.169.191 (Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:21:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:21:47 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!38.119.100.83.MISMATCH!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134138 "Sue Bilstein" wrote in message news:3fedf851@clear.net.nz... > I was asking only semi-sarcastically. I'd love to see a Ring cycle with > really good, realistic effects. Real dragon, real rainbow bridge, Walkures > riding on the wind, all that. The Met's current staging (which has been televised and is available on video) is close to that. The valkyries aren't mounted though (no, Stan, I meant on horses -- you were right, however, about the bear). They WERE mounted and flying on their horses in the Rochaix production in Seattle which, alas, was never filmed. Their current production is moderately realistic except that Valhalla looks like somebody's sand castle and how they are supposed to have jimmied an entire wedding into Hunding's hut -- which is what it is -- is not clear. > Only thing is, surely PJ'd have to substitute something with wider general > appeal for all that screechy singing. Maybe he could get Andrew Lloyd > Webber to write a score. Shoot yourself before you make any such remark. (Elton John already did it to Aida.) I assume anyone who thinks Wagnerian singing is screechy or that the music is bad hasn't really listened to either one. (I am usually right about this.) > Did Chereau do the 19th-century Ring, with Odin in a top-hat and the > Rhine-maidens as prostitutes? I haven't seen it, just looked at the covers > of the videos. The gods start out as 18th-century aristocrats (in Rheingold), become 19th-century upper class folk (no top hat, but an off-the-shoulder gown for Fricka) in Valkyrie. The Rhinemaidens are bustier'd prostitutes. The valkyries are World War I nurses. Chereau knew nothing about Wagner, but he'd read Shaw's book, in which GBS claims the Ring is all about class struggle and the industrial revolution and the triumph of socialism, and he believed it. Or thought it would make a cool look anyway. (GBS thought EVERYTHING was about class struggle and the rise of socialism.) It's a very well acted and played Ring, but one does get distracted by all the props they refer to and you don't actually get to see. (Swords? What swords?) > There was a very abstract Ring too, I vaguely recall. Most of the effects > done with lighting...? Wieland Wagner did several of those (starting the trend), and after his death in 1966 his disciples carried on. Karajan's Ring was VERY DARK. (Birgit Nilsson once wore a miner's helmet with wings attached into a dress rehearsal, and Von K never even noticed.) After I saw the utterly realistic (but kind of high school) first Seattle Ring, I understood what Von K had been doing. It's good to start with a realistic one and then move on. They've done everything with it. There was sci fi Ring in Kassel (was it?), and several post-nuclear Rings. The SF Ring is sort of Caspar David Friedrich-style. The Met's is called the Grand Canyon Rim Ring -- I think New York ought to have a Hudson River School Ring, with Olana standing in for Valhalla. In the one they have now, Valhalla is a bunch of kind of featureless squarish towers. Looks a bit like the WTC. I'll probably get more of a kick from Gotterdamerung this year than in past seasons. At the City Opera Flying Dutchman, they had the rear of the stage rigged to show a Norwegian inlet, and the film bobbed up and down, so it felt the whole theater was on deck, rising and falling with the sea. VERY KEWL. But then, during the Ghost Sailors Chorus, seven drag queens staggered around the stage in blood-red frocks of various eras as the Dutchman's former accursed brides. NOT KEWL. In fact, stupid, at musically the dramatic high point of the score. So you see why I think the modern school of opera staging is not unrelated to Peter Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien and, indeed, often goes WAY beyond him in disrespect. Without the compensating excitement. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: Matthew Bladen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:40:25 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-133-56-254.in-addr.btopenworld.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1072564825 10248 81.133.56.254 (27 Dec 2003 22:40:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:40:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!carbon.eu.sun.com!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134141 In article , the softrat says... > PS: Although I probably read more epic poetry than the average rat, I > still think that it has a boring tendency to go on, and on, and on, > and on.... I have not managed to force my way all the way through > either the Song of Roland or The Iliad. I never tried the > Nibelungenlied. I have not finnished the Kalevala yet. I didn't have any real problems with the Iliad, but I very much preferred the Odyssey. I just couldn't find it within me to care about the events of the Iliad very much, except the bit at the end with Priam and Achilles. The Greeks mostly preferred the Iliad (a copy of the poem was supposed to have been Alexander's most precious possession). I dabbled in the Kalevala (the ?Everyman translation by Kirby that Tolkien read) a few years back, and I have the Song of Roland somewhere... I really liked the epic of Gilgamesh, which came out in a Penguin translation in 1999 -- quite a lot of good introductory material, and various recensions (Babylonian and Sumerian). Well worth getting hold of if you haven't read it. -- Matthew ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 01:29:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1072574996 65.26.218.54 (Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:29:56 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:29:56 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134164 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1a57c24d1ca4e9c498ba77@news.odyssey.net... > >Seattle used to have a real bear (in the Charles Ludlam > >version, the bear went down on Siegfried) > > [leers] Does that mean what I think it does? Yes Stan. It is yet another example of Wagner's bastardization of the Germanic myths. In the originals, Siegfried was never portrayed as being into bestiality. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:28:20 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!teaser.fr!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134177 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Bill O'Meally wrote: > >> >Seattle used to have a real bear (in the Charles Ludlam >> >version, the bear went down on Siegfried) >> [leers] Does that mean what I think it does? > >Yes Stan. It is yet another example of Wagner's bastardization of the >Germanic myths. In the originals, Siegfried was never portrayed as being >into bestiality. That particular bastardization would seem due more to the director of the production than to the composer of the opera, no? On the other hand, Siegfried was in a bad way: every woman he met was his aunt, except for Gutrune Gibich! -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:38:20 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> <3fedf851@clear.net.nz> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134198 On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:26:28 +1300, "Sue Bilstein" wrote: >I was asking only semi-sarcastically. I'd love to see a Ring cycle with >really good, realistic effects. Real dragon, real rainbow bridge, Real blood? Real death? Real Götterdämmerung? the softrat "LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Are you still here? The message is over. Shoo! Go away! ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:57:09 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!63.218.45.11.MISMATCH!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134212 On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:40:25 +0000 (UTC), Matthew Bladen wrote: > >I didn't have any real problems with the Iliad, but I very much >preferred the Odyssey. I just couldn't find it within me to care about >the events of the Iliad very much, except the bit at the end with Priam >and Achilles. The Greeks mostly preferred the Iliad (a copy of the poem >was supposed to have been Alexander's most precious possession). > >I dabbled in the Kalevala (the ?Everyman translation by Kirby that >Tolkien read) a few years back, and I have the Song of Roland >somewhere... I really liked the epic of Gilgamesh, which came out in a >Penguin translation in 1999 -- quite a lot of good introductory >material, and various recensions (Babylonian and Sumerian). Well worth >getting hold of if you haven't read it. Been there; done that! (I think that I said that I read epics, didn't I?) However I do need to read more Indian and Chinese epics. the softrat "LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- _The_ morally smug elitist snob (and 'insufferably arrogant', too) ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:15:25 -0600 From: "Sue Bilstein" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> <3fedf851@clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:19:11 +1300 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 218-101-79-191.dialup.clear.net.nz Message-ID: <3fee9f5a@clear.net.nz> X-Original-Trace: 28 Dec 2003 22:16:10 +1300, 218-101-79-191.dialup.clear.net.nz Organization: CLEAR Net New Zealand http://www.clear.net.nz - Complaints abuse@clear.net.nz Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.97.37.6 X-Trace: sv3-Mhxx6ktoxEL5+udaYqwfsGFgtIrPCOwph1s7AAEat3edaWXlmjxbDWkSfw9sgKylUOuLjoneFNbZU9C!3Dbbkv88l1SvXQxBO/7HdHdFfxiWewpqpelMzV54ek7pR0JGUPusFwo= X-Complaints-To: Complaints to abuse@clear.net.nz X-DMCA-Complaints-To: Complaints to abuse@clear.net.nz X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!rip!news.webusenet.com!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!firehose2!nntp4!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.clear.net.nz!news.clear.net.nz.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134227 "the softrat" wrote in message news:pvqsuvg6f6i79perijkcerng9l31aifr3h@4ax.com... > On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:26:28 +1300, "Sue Bilstein" > wrote: > > >I was asking only semi-sarcastically. I'd love to see a Ring cycle with > >really good, realistic effects. Real dragon, real rainbow bridge, > > Real blood? Real death? Real Götterdämmerung? > Or a convincing semblance of the same. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:32:38 -0600 From: "Sue Bilstein" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> <3fedf851@clear.net.nz> <%BnHb.7366$lt.944@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:36:24 +1300 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 218-101-79-191.dialup.clear.net.nz Message-ID: <3feea363@clear.net.nz> X-Original-Trace: 28 Dec 2003 22:33:23 +1300, 218-101-79-191.dialup.clear.net.nz Organization: CLEAR Net New Zealand http://www.clear.net.nz - Complaints abuse@clear.net.nz Lines: 86 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.97.37.6 X-Trace: sv3-DCtNRa/vF33/nkEyWZvKqVnYPBHgVxv03kc4E6kCQbofNgSKW4CPQeRX27H7j31/qIyREXo7Kuln3FL!HKwvZficYskEox8TkzAAXqvSSjYGsW05EXHr2LJF6wwMLM3GupcTPoY= X-Complaints-To: Complaints to abuse@clear.net.nz X-DMCA-Complaints-To: Complaints to abuse@clear.net.nz X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news2.euro.net!216.166.71.118.MISMATCH!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.clear.net.nz!news.clear.net.nz.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134228 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote in message news:%BnHb.7366$lt.944@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... > "Sue Bilstein" wrote in message > news:3fedf851@clear.net.nz... > > > Only thing is, surely PJ'd have to substitute something with wider general > > appeal for all that screechy singing. Maybe he could get Andrew Lloyd > > Webber to write a score. > > Shoot yourself before you make any such remark. (Elton John already did it > to Aida.) (extracts tongue from cheek) > > I assume anyone who thinks Wagnerian singing is screechy or that the music > is bad hasn't really listened to either one. (I am usually right about > this.) > Would tend to agree with you. I got the bug pretty much on first hearing, & it usually takes me a while to get the hang of a composer I haven't listened to before. By all accounts he was a real shit, so how could he write such amazing music? Life's not fair, fortunately. > > Did Chereau do the 19th-century Ring, with Odin in a top-hat and the > > Rhine-maidens as prostitutes? I haven't seen it, just looked at the > covers > > of the videos. > > The gods start out as 18th-century aristocrats (in Rheingold), become > 19th-century upper class folk (no top hat, but an off-the-shoulder gown for > Fricka) in Valkyrie. The Rhinemaidens are bustier'd prostitutes. The > valkyries are World War I nurses. Chereau knew nothing about Wagner, but > he'd read Shaw's book, in which GBS claims the Ring is all about class > struggle and the industrial revolution and the triumph of socialism, and he > believed it. Or thought it would make a cool look anyway. > > (GBS thought EVERYTHING was about class struggle and the rise of socialism.) > > It's a very well acted and played Ring, but one does get distracted by all > the props they refer to and you don't actually get to see. (Swords? What > swords?) Sounds like fun, I'll have to have a look. ... > > They've done everything with it. There was sci fi Ring in Kassel (was it?), > and several post-nuclear Rings. The SF Ring is sort of Caspar David > Friedrich-style. That would be rather mystical-romantic. But hard to visualise Brunnhilde as a C19th maiden gazing at the moon. ... > > At the City Opera Flying Dutchman, they had the rear of the stage rigged to > show a Norwegian inlet, and the film bobbed up and down, so it felt the > whole theater was on deck, rising and falling with the sea. VERY KEWL. > But then, during the Ghost Sailors Chorus, seven drag queens staggered > around the stage in blood-red frocks of various eras as the Dutchman's > former accursed brides. > NOT KEWL. In fact, stupid, at musically the dramatic high point of the > score. So you see why I think the modern school of opera staging is not > unrelated to Peter Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien and, indeed, often > goes WAY beyond him in disrespect. > In general, I reckon operas / Shakespeare plays etc should be transposed to different periods only for good reasons, by directors who are sure they can pull it off. It seems to have become compulsory for third-raters to do so now, as if modern times and political correctness make us unable to enjoy appreciate works set in period (or wrt Wagner's Ring, in myth-space). Some silly fellow on nz.general just explained to me that PJ had to insert the Aragorn-Arwen stuff because the Lord of the Rings pays insufficient attention to women and male-female relationships for modern PC audiences to tolerate. Sheesh. ###### From: "CC" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 8 Organization: www.pbase.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:22:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.18.241 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1072610533 144.132.18.241 (Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:22:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:22:13 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134241 http://dvd-shop.yellowpages.pl/1488R14P2212_The-Mahabharata.html Have you seen Peter Brooks version of The Mahabharata? You would like it if you were into Epic poetry and ancient tales. http://dvd-shop.yellowpages.pl/1488R14P2212_The-Mahabharata.html ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:30:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.25.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1072632625 165.121.25.125 (Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:30:25 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:30:25 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!53e16bff!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134308 Caeruleo wrote: >In article , > Stan Brown wrote: > >> In article >> in >> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Hasmonean Tazmanian wrote: >> >The first time I ever heard Wagner I couldn't stop listening to it for >> >hours, >> >> Well, yes, if you want to get through even the overture. :-) > >Lol! > >My musicology professor used to put it this way: > >"Tristan & Isolde drink the love potion, & then they sing about that for >200 pages. Later, after she's been married to King Marke, they meet >illicitly & sing about that for 200 pages. Tristan later dies for 200 >pages." > >> > even during school time (which I missed for it) because it was >> >the most loud and bombastic and crass and crude and vulgar and >> >blathering thing I had ever heard in my entire life. >> >> I think it was Mark Twain who said Wagner's music is much better >> than it sounds. > >Really? I'd say that it sounds much better than it is. ;-) Anna Russel has an excellent 15 minute summary of the entire Wagnerian saga (I believe I have it on an LP called "Anna Russel Sings! Again?"). She also has a piece where she attributes the amazing sound of coloratura sopranos (of whom she is not a fan) to use of "the large echo-chamber located between their ears". -- The email above is invalid. All replies to the newsgroup, please. Also: I still mostly download on Saturdays & upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue. ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> <3fedf851@clear.net.nz> <%BnHb.7366$lt.944@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> <3feea363@clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:28:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.132.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1072636126 162.84.132.67 (Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:28:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:28:46 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134326 "Sue Bilstein" wrote in message news:3feea363@clear.net.nz... > In general, I reckon operas / Shakespeare plays etc should be transposed to > different periods only for good reasons, by directors who are sure they can > pull it off. It seems to have become compulsory for third-raters to do so > now, as if modern times and political correctness make us unable to enjoy > appreciate works set in period (or wrt Wagner's Ring, in myth-space). Spot on, Ms. B. What one sees, again and again, is a director with a terrific idea for setting Act II, scene 3 (or whatever) in an automat c. 1933. And it DOES make an amusing commentary on the drama, whatever it is. But the rest of the drama and music and story doesn't fit into an automat c. 1933 at all. However, the director cannot bear to give up his idea, and so wrecks the drama for that one moment. They think it's about them. And actually, we've come to hear the music. The director of the famously foul Ballo in Maschera in Barcelona (hired by the City Council as a political statement) knew nothing of opera or the work in question and was furious that they wouldn't let him cut the love duet (crux of the opera) because it didn't fit with his notion of a story about political power. He staged it all his way anyway. And hey, though booed by audience after audience, the Copenhagen Opera picked it up and borrowed it bodily. I've successfully avoided this director's work. I gather he can't persuade major singers to appear in it. (And yes, Wagner WAS a major league shit, but if human beings were consistent, stories would be much less interesting.) Tsar P ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:31:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.132.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1072636296 162.84.132.67 (Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:31:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:31:36 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134327 "the softrat" wrote in message news:p33tuvkg3dfnu873tebgkld4kp91fefenr@4ax.com... > Been there; done that! (I think that I said that I read epics, didn't > I?) However I do need to read more Indian and Chinese epics. Are there Chinese epics? There are novels, after c. 1600 (perhaps earlier? not sure), but I've never heard of a Chinese epic. Or is Monkey King's travels the Chinese epic? Is it poetry? Is it folk poetry? I don't recall. Tsar Parmathule ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:49:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1072637397 65.26.218.54 (Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:49:57 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:49:57 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134331 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1a5809d2f02362ae98ba80@news.odyssey.net... > In article in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, Bill O'Meally wrote: > > > >> >Seattle used to have a real bear (in the Charles Ludlam > >> >version, the bear went down on Siegfried) > >> [leers] Does that mean what I think it does? > > > >Yes Stan. It is yet another example of Wagner's bastardization of the > >Germanic myths. In the originals, Siegfried was never portrayed as being > >into bestiality. > > That particular bastardization would seem due more to the director > of the production than to the composer of the opera, no? > > On the other hand, Siegfried was in a bad way: every woman he met > was his aunt, except for Gutrune Gibich! Have you ever caught Anna Russell's routine on this? Hilarious! "I'm not making this up, you know." -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:12:33 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134372 On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:06:49 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > >"the softrat" wrote in message >news:sd5luvclmu3ptto9r7nrphaqpmjfev7gn3@4ax.com... >> Since I have BOTH read the Norse Legends (partly in Old Norse) AND >> read and listen to the Wagner operas countless times (Great Music!), I >> do not believe that Wagner influenced Tolkien in any way. I believe >> that the Norse Legends influenced BOTH of them (differently). > >All right, big talker. > >Give us >ONE example in Norse legend -- just ONE -- of a world-ruling Ring. > >Nope. Wagner made it up, and Tolkien got the idea from him. > >Tsar Parmathule > Except that Sauron's Ring is not really a world-ruling ring either. It only gives power according to the stature of its wielder. Note that in 500 years Gollum did not rise to be ruler of anything more than an isolated cave buried far under the Misty Mountains. However Sauron's Ring does tempt a potential wielder with delusions of grandeur, as it did both Gollum and Samwise. There is no evidence that it really delivers, except perhaps to Sauron or another Maia. Wagner's ring delivers! Andvari's ring didn't give the wielder World Power either. Just Death. Just like Isildur, Boromir and Gollum got. the softrat "LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart body. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:10:40 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> <3fedf851@clear.net.nz> <%BnHb.7366$lt.944@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> <3feea363@clear.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!news.newsland.it!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134412 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born wrote: >They think it's about them. And actually, we've come to hear the music. Not quite. If all we wanted to do was hear the music, we'd listen to the radio or the CDs. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:11:11 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134413 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Paul S. Person wrote: >The email above is invalid. Then please follow standards and append ".invalid" to it. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:56:07 +0200 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: "Morgil" NNTP-Posting-Host: cs78173093.pp.htv.fi (62.78.173.93) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072695373 14516540 62.78.173.93 ([81911]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!cs78173093.pp.htv.FI!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134500 "A Tsar Is Born" kirjoitti viestissä:fTlHb.6094$BJ4.1021@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... > Wagner invented the world-ruling Ring and Tolkien got it from Wagner. > Softrat denies this, but he's wrong wrong wrong and can't bring himself to > admit he has no evidence of any alternative. Exept that tiny, tiny, little detail that Tolkien's Ring was not ORIGINALLY a world-ruling ring... Morgil ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:00:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.137.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1072807202 162.84.137.214 (Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:00:02 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:00:02 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134847 "Morgil" wrote in message news:bsp18d$dr09s$1@ID-81911.news.uni-berlin.de... > > "A Tsar Is Born" kirjoitti > viestissä:fTlHb.6094$BJ4.1021@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... > > > Wagner invented the world-ruling Ring and Tolkien got it from Wagner. > > Softrat denies this, but he's wrong wrong wrong and can't bring himself to > > admit he has no evidence of any alternative. > > Exept that tiny, tiny, little detail that Tolkien's Ring > was not ORIGINALLY a world-ruling ring... No, and the Ring in the Hobbit does not derive from Wagner. But the LotR Ring is a very different matter, just as Gandalf is an entirely different creature from the one in The Hobbit and Sauron is rather different from the Necromancer. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 30 Dec 2003 19:00:42 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mightymartianca@yahoo.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: tandem.alberni.net (64.141.6.11) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072810842 1133698 64.141.6.11 ([211612]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.bme.hu!newsfeed.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!tandem.alberni.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134866 On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:00:02 GMT, A Tsar Is Born wrote: > > "Morgil" wrote in message > news:bsp18d$dr09s$1@ID-81911.news.uni-berlin.de... >> >> "A Tsar Is Born" kirjoitti >> viestissä:fTlHb.6094$BJ4.1021@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... >> >> > Wagner invented the world-ruling Ring and Tolkien got it from Wagner. >> > Softrat denies this, but he's wrong wrong wrong and can't bring himself > to >> > admit he has no evidence of any alternative. >> >> Exept that tiny, tiny, little detail that Tolkien's Ring >> was not ORIGINALLY a world-ruling ring... > > No, and the Ring in the Hobbit does not derive from Wagner. > > But the LotR Ring is a very different matter, just as Gandalf is an entirely > different creature from the one in The Hobbit and Sauron is rather different > from the Necromancer. If, as Tolkien seems to hint (I believe in the Forward to LotR), the Necromancer was the Thû/Sauron, then I would say, other than the middle story between the First Age and Bilbo's quest, he was the one that changed the least. -- Aaron Clausen tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:29:39 +0200 Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: "Morgil" NNTP-Posting-Host: cs78173093.pp.htv.fi (62.78.173.93) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072812586 1099097 62.78.173.93 ([81911]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!cs78173093.pp.htv.FI!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:134876 "A Tsar Is Born" kirjoitti viestissä:C2jIb.18203$tY5.12316@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... > > "Morgil" wrote in message > news:bsp18d$dr09s$1@ID-81911.news.uni-berlin.de... > > > > "A Tsar Is Born" kirjoitti > > viestissä:fTlHb.6094$BJ4.1021@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... > > > > > Wagner invented the world-ruling Ring and Tolkien got it from Wagner. > > > Softrat denies this, but he's wrong wrong wrong and can't bring himself > to > > > admit he has no evidence of any alternative. > > > > Exept that tiny, tiny, little detail that Tolkien's Ring > > was not ORIGINALLY a world-ruling ring... > > No, and the Ring in the Hobbit does not derive from Wagner. So the only thing Tolkien could have got from Vagner was the "world-ruling" part. But surely there have been powerful magical objects like that even before Wagner. You know, it's not totally unheard of that two people would come to same conclusion through different paths, independently from each other. So why not here as well? Morgil ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 31 Dec 2003 12:22:49 GMT References: <532da4a3.0312220012.1fd7db46@posting.google.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Message-ID: <20031231072249.26046.00002224@mb-m06.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135050 Dean Hazelfan wrote: >Another possible source of inspiration is Edith Nesbit's story "The >Enchanted Castle", where characters find what they think is an >ordinary magic ring of invisibility, but it later turns out to be a >much more powerful ring and cursed by its creator so that all its >magic turns to evil unless its used by those who are pure of heart. Coincidentally, this story can be found online: http://arthurwendover.com/arthurs/child/enchnt10.html Justin Bacon triad3204@aol.com ###### From: Gerry Snyder User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.126.94.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s04 1072892916 24.126.94.141 (Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:48:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:48:36 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:48:36 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!attbi_s04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135110 Paul S. Person wrote: > .... > > > Anna Russel has an excellent 15 minute summary of the entire Wagnerian > saga (I believe I have it on an LP called "Anna Russel Sings! > Again?"). Also on CD, which I have given to several friends. (and no, I don't mean copies, I mean boughten originals.) To put this more on-topic, she talks about previous reviews of the ring cycle being written "by Great Experts, for the edification of other Great Experts." Rather like much of the discussion here, which I very much enjoy. Gerry, who was very moved by the flic RotK, despite the many differences from the book ###### From: Gerry Snyder User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.126.94.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s04 1072893552 24.126.94.141 (Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:59:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:59:12 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:59:12 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!attbi_s04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135111 the softrat wrote: > .... > PS: Although I probably read more epic poetry than the average rat, I > still think that it has a boring tendency to go on, and on, and on, > and on.... I have not managed to force my way all the way through > either the Song of Roland.... I remember reading Le Chanson de Roland in high school French, but I am sure it was just a fraction of the original. Also, Le Cid (the original gets the order of the first two letters backwards. ;-) Gerry ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:18:12 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135200 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Gerry Snyder wrote: >Paul S. Person wrote: >> Anna Russel has an excellent 15 minute summary of the entire Wagnerian >> saga (I believe I have it on an LP called "Anna Russel Sings! >> Again?"). > >Also on CD, which I have given to several friends. (and no, I don't mean >copies, I mean boughten originals.) Any sightings of a recording of her analysis of /Nabucco/? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Caeruleo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:29:54 -0600 Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hunt-pri2-a25.txucom.net (209.34.8.71) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072985635 2580815 209.34.8.71 ([141024]) X-Orig-Path: caeruleo User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!hunt-pri2-a25.txucom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135355 In article , "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > "Caeruleo" wrote in message > news:caeruleo-BAC1BE.22531125122003@news.fu-berlin.de... > > > (I'm one of those who insists that a Ring of Power was Wagner's > invention, > > > and Tolkien found it there -- Wagnerian ideas being difficult to avoid > in > > > the half century before LotR began to be written, and we know that JRRT > saw > > > Wagner's Ring and disliked it. There are a lot of people who seem hurt > by > > > that, but none of them could cite an earlier Ring that controlled other > > > people, and no one can deny that JRRT knew Wagner's work quite well.) > > > > I think it could be "denied," since I am not aware of anything Tolkien > > wrote in which he demonstrated much knowledge at all about Wagner. He > > seems to have been quite familiar with the Northern European legends on > > which Wagner's Ring was based, however. I am admittedly unclear as to > > whether or not any ring made from the Rheingold, or indeed any ring at > > all which posessed power, is present in those older legends of > > Sigurd/Siegfried, or whether the ring forged by Alberich is an invention > > of Wagner. Anyone? > > Tolkien does not demonstrate much knowledge of Wagner, but Wagner was as > influential then as, say, rock music is today, but with intellectual class. > That is to say, even those who do not like rock, know a great deal about it > because it's impossible to avoid. > > As it happens, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis attended an entire performance of the > Ring at Covent Garden (standing room) and studied the librettos very > carefully before they went. Tolkien hated what Wagner had done with the > myths. But he knew about Wagner very very very well. (Everyone who read a > book in a European language knew a lot about Wagner.) > > In the Sagas: > There is a Ring belonging to the dwarf Andvari. It attracts gold. Loki > steals it, and is forced to give it to the Dwarf-King, who is then murdered > by his son Fafnir, who turns into a dragon. Fafnir's brother Reginn then > raises Sigurd to slay Fafnir, intending to kill him and take the ring. But > Sigurd kills Reginn too, and gives the ring to Brynhild. Later, disguised as > Gunnar, he takes it back and gives it to Gudrun. She shows it to Brynhild, > thus proving Sigurd and Gunnar have tricked her. Brynhild then arranges the > murder of Sigurd and kills herself. Gunnar hides the gold in the Rhine so > Attila the Hun can't get at it. The ring returns to Andvari. > > It has NO other power. Ok, thanks for presenting this; I previously had little knowledge of what mentions were & were not made of any ring in the original legends. > Wagner invented the world-ruling Ring and Tolkien got it from Wagner. > Softrat denies this, but he's wrong wrong wrong and can't bring himself to > admit he has no evidence of any alternative. > > Denials of this statement should mention other world-ruling rings before > Tolkien's time. (There are none.) As far as what I've yet seen presented here, entirely true; I certainly cannot think of another such example. I think the best explanation is one that takes the "middle of the road," that it is most likely that the general idea of such a powerful ring came from Wagner (along with, possibly, the idea of a sword which is broken & is reforged), but that also the similarities between Wagner's & Tolkien's stories are otherwise fairly superficial. ###### From: Caeruleo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:35:58 -0600 Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hunt-pri2-a25.txucom.net (209.34.8.71) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072986000 2580815 209.34.8.71 ([141024]) X-Orig-Path: caeruleo User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!hunt-pri2-a25.txucom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135357 In article , AC wrote: > On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:00:02 GMT, > A Tsar Is Born wrote: > > > > "Morgil" wrote in message > > news:bsp18d$dr09s$1@ID-81911.news.uni-berlin.de... > >> > >> "A Tsar Is Born" kirjoitti > >> viestissä:fTlHb.6094$BJ4.1021@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... > >> > >> > Wagner invented the world-ruling Ring and Tolkien got it from Wagner. > >> > Softrat denies this, but he's wrong wrong wrong and can't bring himself > > to > >> > admit he has no evidence of any alternative. > >> > >> Exept that tiny, tiny, little detail that Tolkien's Ring > >> was not ORIGINALLY a world-ruling ring... > > > > No, and the Ring in the Hobbit does not derive from Wagner. > > > > But the LotR Ring is a very different matter, just as Gandalf is an entirely > > different creature from the one in The Hobbit and Sauron is rather different > > from the Necromancer. > > If, as Tolkien seems to hint (I believe in the Forward to LotR), the > Necromancer was the Thû/Sauron, then I would say, other than the middle > story between the First Age and Bilbo's quest, he was the one that changed > the least. I don't know, however, that this was in his mind when writing "The Hobbit" in 1936, i.e., that the Necromancer was the same entity as the Maia who became Sauron, although it could well be so. ###### From: Caeruleo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:47:54 -0600 Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: hunt-pri2-a25.txucom.net (209.34.8.71) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072986718 2662124 209.34.8.71 ([141024]) X-Orig-Path: caeruleo User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!hunt-pri2-a25.txucom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135360 In article , Paul S. Person wrote: > Caeruleo wrote: > > >In article , > > Stan Brown wrote: > > > >> In article > >> in > >> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Hasmonean Tazmanian wrote: > >> > >> > even during school time (which I missed for it) because it was > >> >the most loud and bombastic and crass and crude and vulgar and > >> >blathering thing I had ever heard in my entire life. > >> > >> I think it was Mark Twain who said Wagner's music is much better > >> than it sounds. > > > >Really? I'd say that it sounds much better than it is. ;-) > > Anna Russel has an excellent 15 minute summary of the entire Wagnerian > saga (I believe I have it on an LP called "Anna Russel Sings! > Again?"). Yes, I know it well. The line about the Rheinmaidens being a "sort of aquatic Andrews Sisters" is a classic, as are many others, such as Russell's astute observation that except for Gutrune & the above-named trio, all the women Siegfried encounters are his aunts, plus another trio of women he doesn't meet, the Norns (the "dreary" aunts), & the other 8 Valkyries (the "noisy" aunts). "She's his aunt, you know," Russell says, when speaking of Siegfried falling instantly in love with Brunhilde, & it's either that line or another similar one which prompts her to say to the audience, "I'm not making this up." ;-) ###### From: Caeruleo Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:49:01 -0600 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: hunt-pri2-a25.txucom.net (209.34.8.71) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1072986782 2662124 209.34.8.71 ([141024]) X-Orig-Path: caeruleo User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!hunt-pri2-a25.txucom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135361 In article , Stan Brown wrote: > In article in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, Gerry Snyder wrote: > >Paul S. Person wrote: > >> Anna Russel has an excellent 15 minute summary of the entire Wagnerian > >> saga (I believe I have it on an LP called "Anna Russel Sings! > >> Again?"). > > > >Also on CD, which I have given to several friends. (and no, I don't mean > >copies, I mean boughten originals.) > > Any sightings of a recording of her analysis of /Nabucco/? Dunno about that, but on the same album she does a brilliant takeoff on Gilbert & Sullivan. ;-) ###### From: Lord Jubjub Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 22:33:01 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 43 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!jubjub Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135474 In article , Caeruleo wrote: > In article , > Paul S. Person wrote: > > > Caeruleo wrote: > > > > >In article , > > > Stan Brown wrote: > > > > > >> In article > > >> in > > >> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Hasmonean Tazmanian wrote: > > >> > > >> > even during school time (which I missed for it) because it was > > >> >the most loud and bombastic and crass and crude and vulgar and > > >> >blathering thing I had ever heard in my entire life. > > >> > > >> I think it was Mark Twain who said Wagner's music is much better > > >> than it sounds. > > > > > >Really? I'd say that it sounds much better than it is. ;-) > > > > Anna Russel has an excellent 15 minute summary of the entire Wagnerian > > saga (I believe I have it on an LP called "Anna Russel Sings! > > Again?"). > > Yes, I know it well. The line about the Rheinmaidens being a "sort of > aquatic Andrews Sisters" is a classic, as are many others, such as > Russell's astute observation that except for Gutrune & the above-named > trio, all the women Siegfried encounters are his aunts, plus another > trio of women he doesn't meet, the Norns (the "dreary" aunts), & the > other 8 Valkyries (the "noisy" aunts). "She's his aunt, you know," > Russell says, when speaking of Siegfried falling instantly in love with > Brunhilde, & it's either that line or another similar one which prompts > her to say to the audience, "I'm not making this up." ;-) LOL. I've got a recording of that. Looks like I'll me getting that out sometime soon. -- Lord Jubjub, ruler of the slithy toves. If you want to contact me, remember I am a LORD. ###### From: Lord Jubjub Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 22:35:06 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 46 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!jubjub Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135477 In article , Caeruleo wrote: > In article , > AC wrote: > > > On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:00:02 GMT, > > A Tsar Is Born wrote: > > > > > > "Morgil" wrote in message > > > news:bsp18d$dr09s$1@ID-81911.news.uni-berlin.de... > > >> > > >> "A Tsar Is Born" kirjoitti > > >> viestissä:fTlHb.6094$BJ4.1021@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... > > >> > > >> > Wagner invented the world-ruling Ring and Tolkien got it from Wagner. > > >> > Softrat denies this, but he's wrong wrong wrong and can't bring > > >> > himself > > > to > > >> > admit he has no evidence of any alternative. > > >> > > >> Exept that tiny, tiny, little detail that Tolkien's Ring > > >> was not ORIGINALLY a world-ruling ring... > > > > > > No, and the Ring in the Hobbit does not derive from Wagner. > > > > > > But the LotR Ring is a very different matter, just as Gandalf is an > > > entirely > > > different creature from the one in The Hobbit and Sauron is rather > > > different > > > from the Necromancer. > > > > If, as Tolkien seems to hint (I believe in the Forward to LotR), the > > Necromancer was the Thû/Sauron, then I would say, other than the middle > > story between the First Age and Bilbo's quest, he was the one that changed > > the least. > > I don't know, however, that this was in his mind when writing "The > Hobbit" in 1936, i.e., that the Necromancer was the same entity as the > Maia who became Sauron, although it could well be so. From the 'Letters', he strongly suggests that Sauron might have been on his mind when he was writing 'The Hobbit'. -- Lord Jubjub, ruler of the slithy toves. If you want to contact me, remember I am a LORD. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 26 Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 17:16:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.25.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1073236608 165.121.25.131 (Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:16:48 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:16:48 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!53e16bff!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135879 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > >"Morgil" wrote in message >news:bsp18d$dr09s$1@ID-81911.news.uni-berlin.de... >> >> "A Tsar Is Born" kirjoitti >> viestissä:fTlHb.6094$BJ4.1021@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... >> >> > Wagner invented the world-ruling Ring and Tolkien got it from Wagner. >> > Softrat denies this, but he's wrong wrong wrong and can't bring himself >to >> > admit he has no evidence of any alternative. >> >> Exept that tiny, tiny, little detail that Tolkien's Ring >> was not ORIGINALLY a world-ruling ring... > >No, and the Ring in the Hobbit does not derive from Wagner. Nor does the Ring in the first five drafts of what became Book I of /LOTR/. It was only /after/ finally getting Frodo (then called Bingo) to Rivendell and considering the suprising (to JRRT) actions of the Nazgul that JRRT asked himself just what, exactly, Bilbo's magic ring might be. HOME VI has the details. -- I still mostly download on Saturdays & upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: JRRT vs Wagner Message-ID: References: <3fe63f52@clear.net.nz> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 17:16:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.25.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1073236610 165.121.25.131 (Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:16:50 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:16:50 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!53e16bff!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:135880 Stan Brown wrote: >In article in >rec.arts.books.tolkien, Paul S. Person wrote: >>The email above is invalid. > >Then please follow standards and append ".invalid" to it. If this came from anyone else, I would feel aggrieved. But you appear to be a reliable source on such matters. It has been done. Thanks for advising me of this standard. -- I still mostly download on Saturdays & upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue.