From: spinnaret@hotmail.com (O'Donnell Tribunal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Date: 17 Dec 2003 06:21:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.77.198.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1071670868 26591 127.0.0.1 (17 Dec 2003 14:21:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:21:08 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131561 Elves do NOT have free will. Feanor's doom was foreordained. It was in the music of Illuvatar as is the doom of all Elves. We cannot condemn the Noldor for their actions, things are as music sounded and so it is without exception. Human beings have the starnge gifts of death and Free Will. Free will is a far better gift that immortality (indeed the gift is MORTALITY) so how can the Valar grant mortality but not immortality. Sounds like I know a little right wing catholic who DIDN'T have the courage of his convictions. O'Donnell Abu ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <4UZDb.145809$Vu6.140576@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:38:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1071671936 65.26.218.54 (Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:38:56 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:38:56 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131565 "O'Donnell Tribunal" wrote in message news:a96aa4e3.0312170621.64663fee@posting.google.com... > Human beings have the starnge gifts of death and Free Will. > > Free will is a far better gift that immortality (indeed the gift is > MORTALITY) > so how can the Valar grant mortality but not immortality. To grant immortality would, in essence, be witholding the Gift of mortality. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to do so. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:02:35 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o049.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1071673755 61874 212.205.252.49 (17 Dec 2003 15:09:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:09:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131569 "O'Donnell Tribunal" wrote in message news:a96aa4e3.0312170621.64663fee@posting.google.com... > Elves do NOT have free will. That's ambiguous. > Human beings have the strange gifts of death and Free Will. Which is in essence declared to be one as "Freedom beyond the circles of the world". I don't agree with you on calling it "free will" though, since it's my interpretation that all souls in Tolkien's universe have free will, not just mortal men. > Free will is a far better gift that immortality (indeed the gift is > MORTALITY) so how can the Valar grant mortality > but not immortality. The Valar can't grant mortality, so you're wrong there. Indeed they don't have the gift of mortality for their own selves, so they certainly can't grant it to others without first consulting with Iluvatar. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:04:37 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131591 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, O'Donnell Tribunal wrote: >Elves do NOT have free will. Your proof of this? How do you get around the chronicler's statements in "The Darkening of Valinor", when Fëanor refused Yavanna's request to hand over the Silmarils: "The Silmarils had passed away, and all one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were." That would have been a pointless statement if Fëanor had not had the capacity to choose. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: spinnaret@hotmail.com (O'Donnell Tribunal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Date: 18 Dec 2003 01:42:58 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.77.198.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1071740578 7275 127.0.0.1 (18 Dec 2003 09:42:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:42:58 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!itgate.net!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!priapus.visi.com!orange.octanews.net!news.octanews.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131752 Apologies for a general reply to Stan, Aris and Bill, I'm posting though google and it's a nuisance. Aris: I believe that men are given the power to choose a destiny beyond the 'music of the Ainulindale(?)', by implication Elves are not. Though they seem to have free will, they will always choose (even if it is a free choice) in accordance with the music. Bill: But how can the Valar grant MORTALITY (sorry for the caps) after all this is the greater gift, it seems to me that Luthien should have been left to her doom. If a man wishes to forego the greater gift for the lesser should he be allowed to do so? Stan: That is just the storyteller's opinion. Yavanna made the trees she could make them only once. But Feanor could only make three Silmarils. Why should her need be greater than his? All may look upon the remaining Silmaril in the sky above Arda but the trees would have been only for the Valar and their pets. Further Men would have awoken in Darkness and been taken by Morgoth but for the Sun and theirwould be no sun without the death of the trees. Further a theme of the Silmarillion is that just authority must be respected. One should not rebel against a good king. Is Yavanna just to demand the Silmaril? I apologise again for bundling your reponses into one post, google takes a lng time to load nad submit each page on my PC. O'Donnell Abu ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:59:07 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q120.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1071752747 93555 212.205.254.120 (18 Dec 2003 13:05:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:05:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131783 "O'Donnell Tribunal" wrote in message news:a96aa4e3.0312180142.6cd073cb@posting.google.com... > > Bill: > But how can the Valar grant MORTALITY (sorry for the caps) after all > this is the greater gift, it seems to me that Luthien should have > been left to her doom. If a man wishes to forego the greater gift for > the lesser should he be allowed to do so? The Valar consulted with Iluvatar on the issue of Beren and Luthien, they didn't grant anything themselves. > Stan: > That is just the storyteller's opinion. Yavanna made the trees she > could make them only once. But Feanor could only make three > Silmarils. Why should her need be greater than his? All may look > upon the remaining Silmaril in the sky above Arda but the trees would > have been only for the Valar and their pets. You've been reading a different Silmarillion than the rest of us. Yavanna wasn't making the petition for her own "need", and it wasn't by Feanor's will, but by the *Valar's* will rather that the last Silmaril was eventually put on the sky. Feanor on the other hand kept (and would have kept) the Silmarils locked in his safe where only his father and his sons could see them. "for the Valar and their pets"? Their *pets*??? Do you have any reason to believe that people who disagreed with the Valar were suddenly struck blind or something? Because it doesn't occur in the text. > Further Men would have awoken in Darkness and been taken by Morgoth > but for the Sun and there would be no sun without the death of the > trees. Says who? How in the world do you know what would the Valar have done had the trees not died? > Further a theme of the Silmarillion is that just authority must be > respected. One should not rebel against a good king. Is Yavanna just > to demand the Silmaril? But she didn't *demand* the Silmaril, she *asked* for it and accepted the decision Feanor took. Are people not even allowed to *ask* for things? Aris Katsaris ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:52:55 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131800 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, O'Donnell Tribunal wrote: >I apologise again for bundling your reponses into one post, google >takes a lng time to load nad submit each page on my PC. That's all very well, but you didn't actually _respond_. You made a bald statement that Elves have no free will. I asked you to cite your authority. If you have such a statement from Tolkien, I'd very much like to know about it. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:11:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1071760305 65.26.218.54 (Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:11:45 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:11:45 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!freenix!deine.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131801 "O'Donnell Tribunal" wrote in message news:a96aa4e3.0312180142.6cd073cb@posting.google.com... > Aris: I believe that men are given the power to choose a destiny > beyond the 'music of the Ainulindale(?)', by implication Elves are > not. Though they seem to have free will, they will always choose > (even if it is a free choice) in accordance with the music. > > Bill: > But how can the Valar grant MORTALITY (sorry for the caps) after all > this is the greater gift, it seems to me that Luthien should have > been left to her doom. See Aris's response to this. The granting or witholding of the Gift ultimately comes from Iluvatar. Also, I think you've set up a strawman here, stating that Mortality = free will and that Immortality = no free will. I don't agree. Men don't *choose* their destiny beyond the confines of Arda. It is their ultimate fate whether they like it or not. If a man wishes to forego the greater gift for > the lesser should he be allowed to do so? No Man, Elf or Vala has the authority to grant or withhold the Gift of Mortality. The exception would be the Half-elven, who get to choose their fate. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: "Chocoholic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:08:50 -0500 Organization: NOT! Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 54 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131899 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1a4a64c56f77fbef98b99c@news.odyssey.net... > In article in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, O'Donnell Tribunal wrote: > >Elves do NOT have free will. > > Your proof of this? > > How do you get around the chronicler's statements in "The Darkening > of Valinor", when Fëanor refused Yavanna's request to hand over the > Silmarils: "The Silmarils had passed away, and all one it may seem > whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea > at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that > his after deeds would have been other than they were." > > That would have been a pointless statement if Fëanor had not had the > capacity to choose. > From the SIlmarillion: --- snip --- For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. --- snip --- What part of 'all things else' don't you understand? Yes, the Elves are bound by the Music. That doesn't mean he is powerless to resist anything that any particular Vala would ask of him. The Music was made by ALL of the Ainur. That Fëanor was influenced by/bound more to Morgoth (by hate rather than love, but bondage nonetheless) than any other of the Valar does not change this. Don't you see the kinship of Fëanor and Melkor/Morgoth -- both the greatest of their 'kind' and so both ambitious beyond their station? Fëanor might have seemed to be making a 'choice' at this point but so do all of the Valar and Maiar seem to be making choices in time. Yet we are clearly told that those 'choices' were actually made in the archetypal time before the world was actually created. Do you deny that the Valar and Maiar are bound by the Music themselves? Why would Fëanor be any different? ###### Lines: 89 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 19 Dec 2003 03:12:22 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m06) Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20031218221222.15462.00005056@mb-m06.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news2.telebyte.nl!feeder.enertel.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:131970 In article , "Chocoholic" writes: >"Stan Brown" wrote in message >news:MPG.1a4a64c56f77fbef98b99c@news.odyssey.net... >> In article in >> rec.arts.books.tolkien, O'Donnell Tribunal wrote: >> >Elves do NOT have free will. >> >> Your proof of this? >> >> How do you get around the chronicler's statements in "The Darkening >> of Valinor", when Fëanor refused Yavanna's request to hand over the >> Silmarils: "The Silmarils had passed away, and all one it may seem >> whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea >> at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that >> his after deeds would have been other than they were." >> >> That would have been a pointless statement if Fëanor had not had the >> capacity to choose. >> > >From the SIlmarillion: > >--- snip --- > >For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and >for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: 'Behold I >love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But >the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall >have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; >and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will >give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek >beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a >virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond >the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their >operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world >fulfilled unto the last and smallest. > >--- snip --- > >What part of 'all things else' don't you understand? Yes, the Elves are >bound by the Music. That doesn't mean he is powerless to resist anything >that any particular Vala would ask of him. The Music was made by ALL of the >Ainur. That Fëanor was influenced by/bound more to Morgoth (by hate rather >than love, but bondage nonetheless) than any other of the Valar does not >change this. Don't you see the kinship of Fëanor and Melkor/Morgoth -- both >the greatest of their 'kind' and so both ambitious beyond their station? > >Fëanor might have seemed to be making a 'choice' at this point but so do all >of the Valar and Maiar seem to be making choices in time. Yet we are clearly >told that those 'choices' were actually made in the archetypal time before >the world was actually created. Do you deny that the Valar and Maiar are >bound by the Music themselves? Why would Fëanor be any different? I think you and Stan may be talking of two different things. Elves, of course, had free will. As did the Ainur. As I see it, what being bound by the Music meant was that regardless of their individual choices their 'big picture' fate was sealed. Thus the Messenger could pretty much tell the Noldor and specifically the Feanoreans what their fate would be in Middle-earth. And thus for the Elves, the Music decreed that eventually they would fade and join the Ainur in an existance apart from Middle-earth. Thus no matter how many Avari wanted to stay in Middle-earth; or Sindar who wanted to ramain in Beleriand; or Noldor who wanted to return to Middle-earth for realms and glory it was ultimately, as Galadriel said, a long defeat. While the Music rules, Free Will may affect things in the short term but in the long term the Music prevails. But when the Dominion of Men comes, the Music no longer has a hold on fate. Men are free of the bonds of the music and make their own way in history. The Valar themselves fade away; their purpose fulfilled with the conclusion of the Music in which they played a part. Consider the time of the Valar - when the Music ruled. There was little or no development. There was little or no difference between the First Age and the Third Age. Consider the Dominion of Man. In the same span of time we've gone from Aragorn defeating Sauron to putting a man on the moon. I think it might be analogous to the (gasp) Dune series. For 10,000 years humanty was fixed by the oracular vision of the God Emperor. However with the Scattering, humanity broke free of those bonds and would never again be fettered or locked into one fate by prescient oracular vision. Russ ---------------------- "If you are in Iraq and there is an attack in America, you're going to look out of position, and no one wants that, particularly during a sweeps month," Dan Rather on why he won't visit Iraq. ###### Lines: 17 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 19 Dec 2003 15:41:22 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m16) Subject: Re: Free Will and Elves/ Elves and Death Message-ID: <20031219104122.05539.00003085@mb-m16.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:132092 In article , "Bill O'Meally" writes: >No Man, Elf or Vala has the authority to grant or withhold the Gift of >Mortality. The exception would be the Half-elven, who get to choose >their fate. > And only certain half-elven at that. Russ ---------------------- "If you are in Iraq and there is an attack in America, you're going to look out of position, and no one wants that, particularly during a sweeps month," Dan Rather on why he won't visit Iraq.