From: "Crimson Castle" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Death and Elves. Lines: 7 Organization: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:05:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.18.241 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1069769106 144.132.18.241 (Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:05:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:05:06 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!diablo.efnet.com!efnet.com!news.moat.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128231 When Elves die, and their spirits returns back to Middle-Earth, do they get reborn via the womb again or are they returned through another means? Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were "returned" ? ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:24:52 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-185-221.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: titan.btinternet.com 1069773892 18037 213.122.185.221 (25 Nov 2003 15:24:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:24:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128239 "Crimson Castle" wrote in message news:mkJwb.26928$aT.11135@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > When Elves die, and their spirits returns back to Middle-Earth, do they get > reborn via the womb again or are they returned through another means? > > Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were > "returned" ? Their spirits go to the halls of Mandos where they reside for a while in quite solitude, perhaps contemplating the events that led to their deaths (The halls do not come across as a place of partying and get-togethers with old friends, rather it is depicted as a more solitary place of quite contemplation). Then after a variable amount of time has passed, (depending on the whim of Mandos presumably), they can ask be re-embodied and return to the world, whereupon they step out of the Halls of Mandos and find themselves in Valinor (of course some elves might not wish to be re-embodied, its their choice). Now, once re-embodied and living in Aman, they could decide to take a ship back to Middle-earth once more, however this doesn't seem to happen very often, in fact Glorfindal is the only one known to have done this, so it is likely to have been a very rare occurrence. If you think about it, after dying horribly in all the strife of Middle-earth, you would probably choose to leave it to its fate, as you would have had enough, esp. in the third Age with so many elves leaving anyway. An interesting thing I found out recently, is that apparently even Men go to the Halls for a while, before shunting off this mortal coil to go 'where elves know not'. Douglas ###### From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mhaines@io.nanc.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 23 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:35:54 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.111.21 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1069774556 148.63.111.21 (Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:35:56 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:35:56 CST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128246 In article , removeDobvious_crimson_castle@hotmail.com says... > When Elves die, and their spirits returns back to Middle-Earth, do they get > reborn via the womb again or are they returned through another means? They're full reembodied, IIRC. > Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were > "returned" ? Glorfindel. Michelle Flutist -- Drift on a river, That flows through my arms Drift as I'm singing to you I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm And holding you, I'm smiling, too Here in my arms, Safe from all harm Holding you, I'm smiling, too -- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99] ###### From: Matthew Bladen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:51:00 -0000 Organization: Oxford University, England Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcpm087.wadham.ox.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.ox.ac.uk 1069775455 4775 163.1.81.87 (25 Nov 2003 15:50:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@ox.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:50:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!logbridge.uoregon.edu!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128250 In article , Douglas Eckhart says... > > "Crimson Castle" wrote in > message news:mkJwb.26928$aT.11135@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > > Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were > > "returned" ? > > > Their spirits go to the halls of Mandos where they reside for a while in > quite solitude, perhaps contemplating the events that led to their deaths > (The halls do not come across as a place of partying and get-togethers with > old friends, rather it is depicted as a more solitary place of quite > contemplation). Then after a variable amount of time has passed, (depending > on the whim of Mandos presumably), they can ask be re-embodied and return to > the world, whereupon they step out of the Halls of Mandos and find > themselves in Valinor (of course some elves might not wish to be > re-embodied, its their choice). Tolkien seems to me to have been feeling his way towards the idea that true and sincere contrition was necessary before an Elvish fea could leave Mandos. Once an Elf had sincerely repented of his or her mistakes and evil deeds and returned to a state of grace (as it were), he or she could depart. In a way, they are their own gaolers until they see fit to release themselves -- and this is harder than it might sound. Can you imagine Feanor ever truly repenting of what he did? Although Feanor is a special case; Tolkien remarked of him in a letter that he was 'referred to the One' although why this was done to Feanor and not Morgoth is anyone's guess. It's an interesting notion of Purgatory being about abasement of ego, pride and so forth. Note that Finrod and Glorfindel, two noble Elves who sacrificed themselves to save others, seem to have been restored to grace and re-embodied fairly quickly. I suspect that an Elf not wanting to be re-embodied would be a falling- away from Elvish 'right nature': Elves were 'designed' to be in the world, and even Miriel eventually re-inhabited her body. Finwe gave up his right to be re-embodied in return for this boon (even Miriel eventually came to want to exercise her skills and 'live' again). Honest repentance as a means of returning to Good features as a theme in several places, although usually the character *fails* to do so: Melkor after his imprisonment, Sauron (an interesting case: he tried to repent but couldn't bring himself to submit to the Valar because of his fear and pride, and so eventually fell back into evil ways), Saruman when Gandalf offers him a chance, Gollum before Sam calls him a 'sneak.' Tolkien called it a 'trembling point' where the character *might* have chosen a different path. An exception to the negative trend is Boromir, who redeemed himself defending Merry and Pippin and 'died well.' -- Matthew ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Date: 25 Nov 2003 16:05:29 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mightymartianca@yahoo.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: tandem.alberni.net (64.141.6.11) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1069776329 59459003 64.141.6.11 ([211612]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!tandem.alberni.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128251 On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:05:06 GMT, Crimson Castle wrote: > When Elves die, and their spirits returns back to Middle-Earth, do they get > reborn via the womb again or are they returned through another means? > > Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were > "returned" ? Not all Elves return to Middle Earth upon re-embodiment. It really depends on where they were from to begin with. If they were High Elves, then upon death they were re-embodied in Aman, otherwise they returned to Middle Earth. As to how they were re-embodied, that conception changed. Originally Tolkien thought they were reborn in their young. Later, as I recall, the conception that the Valar were actually involved in the re-embodiment arose. As to an example of a re-embodied Elf, there is Glorifindel. -- Aaron Clausen tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) or mightymartianca@yahoo.ca ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 41 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1069793592 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:53:12 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:53:12 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: YiPwb-11256-Y4-18977@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 3fb9a638 8c8a4f93 b0fe89ac 17013a86 a0fd732a Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:53:12 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128276 Quoth "Crimson Castle" in article : > When Elves die, and their spirits returns back to Middle-Earth, do > they get reborn via the womb again or are they returned through > another means? First off, Tolkien changed his mind on this one over time. He originally envisioned them being reborn as children, but eventually he decided that this didn't work out in his philosophical picture of Middle-earth. (In particular, I believe he felt that rebirth in this way would be "unfair" to the new parents: they give so much of themselves to the child as it develops, and then it turns out to be "someone else's child" altogether. Another factor is that a child's "spirit" seems to be drawn from those of its parents just as its physical characteristics are drawn from theirs; if a spirit were "reborn", the parents wouldn't contribute any "spirit" at all.) So in the end, he settled on the idea that the spirit of a dead Elf would be called to the Blessed Realm in the West, where it would eventually be re-embodied directly with the help of the Valar. However, it seems that most of those Elves did not return to Middle-earth, but remained in the West. There's some more information on all this that you can find in the "Eventual Fates of the Races" section of my Tolkien Meta-FAQ, at http://tolkien.slimy.com/ A number of questions there are relevant (including one about this specific question). > Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were > "returned" ? The only Elf who Tolkien explicitly said died and then came back _to Middle-earth_ was Glorfindel (see the Meta-FAQ question on him for more information, in the "Specific Characters" section). But Finrod and possibly others were mentioned as having been re-embodied in the Blessed Realm but never returning to Middle-earth. Steuard Jensen ###### Lines: 24 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 25 Nov 2003 21:30:53 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m17) Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Message-ID: <20031125163053.22081.00002106@mb-m17.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128281 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >> Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were >> "returned" ? > >The only Elf who Tolkien explicitly said died and then came back _to >Middle-earth_ was Glorfindel (see the Meta-FAQ question on him for >more information, in the "Specific Characters" section). But Finrod >and possibly others were mentioned as having been re-embodied in the >Blessed Realm but never returning to Middle-earth. There's a line somewhere which implies it went beyond just a few big names. It was along the lines that those who were rembodied reoported on conditions in Mandos, specifically that the Alamanyar kept off to themselves. Russ - "What about them? They're fresh - They're not for eating - What about their legs. They don't need those. They look tasty - Get back - Just a mouthful - Look's like meat's back on the menu boys" ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:15:43 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128305 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Matthew Bladen wrote: > even Miriel eventually re-inhabited her body. Finwe gave up >his right to be re-embodied in return for this boon (even Miriel >eventually came to want to exercise her skills and 'live' again). Huh? I thought Miriel's decision to refuse reincarnation was irrevocable, and only then was Finwe allowed to remarry. Where did you find the above addenda? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 27 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 26 Nov 2003 01:54:44 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m07) Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Message-ID: <20031125205444.25815.00004704@mb-m07.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128310 In article , Stan Brown writes: >In article in >rec.arts.books.tolkien, Matthew Bladen wrote: >> even Miriel eventually re-inhabited her body. Finwe gave up >>his right to be re-embodied in return for this boon (even Miriel >>eventually came to want to exercise her skills and 'live' again). > >Huh? I thought Miriel's decision to refuse reincarnation was >irrevocable, and only then was Finwe allowed to remarry. > >Where did you find the above addenda? It's in there somewhere. It occurred when Finwe, after being killed by Melkor, agreed to make his disembodiment permanent. The question then is, let's take odds on the Miriel/Indis catfight. Russ - "What about them? They're fresh - They're not for eating - What about their legs. They don't need those. They look tasty - Get back - Just a mouthful - Look's like meat's back on the menu boys" ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Date: 26 Nov 2003 02:09:58 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 24 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128315 Stan Brown wrote: : In article in : rec.arts.books.tolkien, Matthew Bladen wrote: :> even Miriel eventually re-inhabited her body. Finwe gave up :>his right to be re-embodied in return for this boon (even Miriel :>eventually came to want to exercise her skills and 'live' again). : Huh? I thought Miriel's decision to refuse reincarnation was : irrevocable, and only then was Finwe allowed to remarry. : Where did you find the above addenda? It is in Morgoth's Ring. That is where all the good stuff is. "Therefore when Nienna came to him [Mandos] and renewed her prayer for Miriel, he consented, accepting the abnegation of Finwe as her ransom. Then the fea of Miriel was released and came before Manwe and received his blessing; and she went then to Lorien and re-entered her body, and awok again, as one that cometh out of a deep sleep; and she arose and her body was refreshed." This is in "Laws A", in the "The Later Quenta Silmarillion". Page 249 in the hardback. Stephen ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 06:06:53 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20031125205444.25815.00004704@mb-m07.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128355 In article <20031125205444.25815.00004704@mb-m07.aol.com> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Russ wrote: >>In article in >>rec.arts.books.tolkien, Matthew Bladen wrote: >>> even Miriel eventually re-inhabited her body. Finwe gave up >>>his right to be re-embodied in return for this boon (even Miriel >>>eventually came to want to exercise her skills and 'live' again). >> >>Huh? I thought Miriel's decision to refuse reincarnation was >>irrevocable, and only then was Finwe allowed to remarry. >> >>Where did you find the above addenda? > >It's in there somewhere. Gee, thanks. _That_ was certainly helpful. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Date: 26 Nov 2003 13:39:57 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <20031125205444.25815.00004704@mb-m07.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1069853997 12734 128.214.205.14 (26 Nov 2003 13:39:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2003 13:39:57 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128367 Stan Brown wrote: > Gee, thanks. _That_ was certainly helpful. It's in Morgoth's Ring. The point was that all three couldn't live at the same time because then Finwe would have had two viwes. So either Miriel or Finwe had to stay in Mandos. ###### From: "Crimson Castle" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Lines: 18 Organization: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:38:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.18.241 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1069861085 144.132.18.241 (Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:38:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:38:05 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!feed1.news.be.easynet.net!news.moat.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128374 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:bpvs83 > Their spirits go to the halls of Mandos where they reside for a while in > quite solitude, perhaps contemplating the events that led to their deaths Thank you everyone for responding so nicely. I have a problem remembering a lot of the terms and names used and therefore I made my question rather vaguely to avoid offending anyone. I remember reading from the Silmarillion that the spirit of the dead Elves could refuse the call of Mandos - and if so - their spirits would be unable to resist the call of Melkor - hope I got the name right. I guess someone like Feanor was an Elf who would not heed the call to go to Mandos... and probably he would join Melkor then? ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References:

Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <6o9xb.11297$dm2.9048@news.get2net.dk> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:52:50 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.112 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1069884034 195.82.196.112 (Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:00:34 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:00:34 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!eusc.inter.net!easynews.net!newsfeed3.easynews.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128427 "Crimson Castle" skrev i en meddelelse news:xN3xb.28263$aT.15477@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > I guess someone like Feanor was an Elf who would not heed the call to go > to Mandos... and probably he would join Melkor then? F�anor may have despised the Valar, including Mandos, but he utterly hated and detested Morgoth. But who knows? If it were purely a choice for a slain Elf between Mandos and Morgoth, then F�anor's choice to go to Mandos so as to avoid Morgoth may have been his first act of humility on the road to redemption? Karasu. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. References: <20031125163053.22081.00002106@mb-m17.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1069884312 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:05:12 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:05:12 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: ss9xb-2094-_4-3889@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 93b438ac a509f4e4 1fdf0525 bea20745 42e981cb Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:05:12 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128428 Quoth mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) in article <20031125163053.22081.00002106@mb-m17.aol.com>: > (Steuard Jensen) writes: > >But Finrod and possibly others were mentioned as having been > >re-embodied in the Blessed Realm but never returning to > >Middle-earth. > There's a line somewhere which implies it went beyond just a few big > names. I certainly didn't mean to imply that only the "important" Elves got to come back! Thanks for the clarification. > It was along the lines that those who were rembodied reoported on > conditions in Mandos, specifically that the Alamanyar kept off to > themselves. Yeah, I remember that passage now that you mention it, and I agree that it implies that a considerable number of Elves had "returned" from Mandos. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death and Elves. References:

X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1069885104 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:18:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:18:24 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: QE9xb-2155-_4-3990@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 7ef70071 162a0b18 42432aeb 70171bfa aac17bcd Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:18:24 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128436 Quoth "Crimson Castle" in article : > I remember reading from the Silmarillion that the spirit of the dead > Elves could refuse the call of Mandos - and if so - their spirits > would be unable to resist the call of Melkor - hope I got the name > right. Hmm. Actually, I'd guess that you remember that from either _Morgoth's Ring_ or from my FAQ: I'm pretty sure it's not in _The Silmarillion_ as published. :) (Well, from my FAQ or some other online(?) resource, but most other Tolkien information sites that I've seen don't go into quite the degree of detail on these issues that mine does.) > I guess someone like Feanor was an Elf who would not heed the call > to go to Mandos... and probably he would join Melkor then? I think that Feanor probably would heed the call, actually: he rebelled against the Valar, but after he died he may have had a bit more perspective. :) Also, if he realized that the choice was between Mandos and his mortal enemy Morgoth, I think he'd choose Mandos without hesitation. (On the other hand, Feanor's spirit was strong enough that he could probably have refused both summons and wandered the world alone.) But all those arguments are basically moot: there's at least one direct statement that Feanor would be held in Mandos until the end of the world, so that makes it pretty clear that he went there. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References:

Subject: Re: Death and Elves. Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:53:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.171.254.120 X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-Trace: news1.news.adelphia.net 1070052818 68.171.254.120 (Fri, 28 Nov 2003 15:53:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 15:53:38 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!router1.news.adelphia.net!news1.news.adelphia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128623 "Crimson Castle" wrote in message > > I remember reading from the Silmarillion that the spirit of the dead Elves > could refuse the call of Mandos - and if so - their spirits would be unable > to resist the call of Melkor - hope I got the name right. > > I guess someone like Feanor was an Elf who would not heed the call to go to > Mandos... and probably he would join Melkor then? > > All Elves heard the call, I believe. I think the call you're referring to where Elves might refuse, was directed towards Elves that never wandered West or learned about the Valar. When they died they might feel a natural urge to go to Mandos but might not having no knowledge of him. I don't think that an Elf like Feanor who has seen/met/talked to/(had lunch with?) Mandos would resist. And Steuard has mentioned the quote about the final fate of Feanor. So if an Elf refused this would be unnatural and wrong. Tolkien said that these spirits who refused would be harmful in some ways to Man. I always thought that Tolkien was trying to explain what Ghost were in his mythology. In Tolkiens early drafts there were spirits, leprechauns,fairies and all kinds of mystical beings. I wish he didn't drop it all in his later writings. Oh well. T.A.