From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: How old is Legolas? Message-ID: Reply-To: mhaines@io.nanc.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:16:35 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.111.21 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1069694196 148.63.111.21 (Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:16:36 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:16:36 CST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!209.98.3.200.MISMATCH!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128108 So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says how old Legolas is? It was wondering about this question months ago that led me to this newsgroup, in a round-about way, actually. So I suppose I should ask the question finally. I was sitting there one day, thinking, "How old is Legolas, anyway? It's got to be in the Tale of Years, everyone else is. Oh, wait, it's NOT in the Tale of Years? How did that happen?" Michelle Flutist -- Drift on a river, That flows through my arms Drift as I'm singing to you I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm And holding you, I'm smiling, too Here in my arms, Safe from all harm Holding you, I'm smiling, too -- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99] ###### From: "Jon Meltzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:11:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.91.162.72 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net 1069701067 64.91.162.72 (Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:11:07 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:11:07 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!a91cc34a!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128125 "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message news:MPG.1a2bead9ebcf6f9098a2e2@news.Qwest.net... > > So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says > how old Legolas is? Not in anything that's been published. All we know is that he's older than Aragorn. ###### From: "Isildur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:54:29 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-129-57-176.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1069707269 15615 81.129.57.176 (24 Nov 2003 20:54:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:54:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128137 "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message news:MPG.1a2bead9ebcf6f9098a2e2@news.Qwest.net... > > So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says > how old Legolas is? > > It was wondering about this question months ago that led me to this > newsgroup, in a round-about way, actually. So I suppose I should ask > the question finally. The Encyclopedia of Arda states: Legolas' date of birth is not known. He passed over the Sea in IV 120 http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/l/legolas.html ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <7jvwb.497$ML.367@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:08:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.176.218 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1069711683 162.83.176.218 (Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:08:03 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:08:03 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!216.166.71.118.MISMATCH!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128142 "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message news:MPG.1a2bead9ebcf6f9098a2e2@news.Qwest.net... > > So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says > how old Legolas is? If you were that well preserved, you wouldn't reveal your true age either. He's LOTS older than Aragorn (a child of 90) -- he keeps talking down to Gimli about how "young" the dwarf is, how tiring it is to hang out with the short-lived, etc. -- and Gimli's forty if he's a day. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:37:20 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1069717985 195.82.196.87 (Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:53:05 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:53:05 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128165 "Michelle J. Haines" skrev i en meddelelse news:MPG.1a2bead9ebcf6f9098a2e2@news.Qwest.net... > So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says > how old Legolas is? From TT, the chapter "The King of the Golden Hall", referring to the building of Meduseld: "Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then," said Legolas, "and but a little while does that seem to us." Of course he may personally have been born after this, speaking as a representative of his people and not for himself. But it does suggest that five hundred years are just a small part of Legolas' life so far. Kákam. ###### From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mhaines@io.nanc.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 39 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:17:50 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.111.21 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1069719473 148.63.111.21 (Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:17:53 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:17:53 CST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!ply1.onvoy!onvoy.com!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128168 In article , jonlennart.beck.god@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam says... > "Michelle J. Haines" skrev i en meddelelse > news:MPG.1a2bead9ebcf6f9098a2e2@news.Qwest.net... > > > So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says > > how old Legolas is? > > From TT, the chapter "The King of the Golden Hall", referring to the > building of Meduseld: > "Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home > since then," said Legolas, "and but a little while does that seem to us." > Of course he may personally have been born after this, speaking as a > representative of his people and not for himself. But it does suggest that > five hundred years are just a small part of Legolas' life so far. I figured he was at least that old, from reading the text myself, I just wondered if it was ever pinned down more definitively. I did once read an essay that put his age at about 1500-ish years, which still seems a little short. I think the movie folks pinned an age label on him that was about the same as Arwen, but I don't know where they came up with the number. I did lament a little that in the extended scene in Fangorn with the Hunters, they left out one of my favorite Legolas lines, about the forest making him feel young in a way that he hadn't felt since journeying with "you children". :) Michelle Flutist -- Drift on a river, That flows through my arms Drift as I'm singing to you I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm And holding you, I'm smiling, too Here in my arms, Safe from all harm Holding you, I'm smiling, too -- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99] ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 04:30:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.155.145.227 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1069734613 141.155.145.227 (Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:30:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:30:13 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128193 "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message news:MPG.1a2c4d96754e5ed298a2eb@news.Qwest.net... > I did lament a little that in the extended scene in Fangorn with the > Hunters, they left out one of my favorite Legolas lines, about the > forest making him feel young in a way that he hadn't felt since > journeying with "you children". :) And to think he had lived that long without a single trip to the beach! Tsar Parmathule ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:42:47 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c130.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128197 In article , "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message > news:MPG.1a2c4d96754e5ed298a2eb@news.Qwest.net... > > I did lament a little that in the extended scene in Fangorn with the > > Hunters, they left out one of my favorite Legolas lines, about the > > forest making him feel young in a way that he hadn't felt since > > journeying with "you children". :) > > And to think he had lived that long without a single trip to the beach! lifes a beach and then you sail ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 46 Message-ID: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1069948673 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:57:53 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:57:53 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 5apxb-4607-_4-8070@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: b9883c59 066b783f a86f92ac 06c49bcb 85b785e2 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:57:53 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128523 Quoth mhaines@io.nanc.com in article : > jonlennart.beck.god@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam says... > > "Michelle J. Haines" skrev: > > > So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that > > > says how old Legolas is? > > [Snip quote about Ents' search]...it does suggest that five > > hundred years are just a small part of Legolas' life so far. > I figured he was at least that old, from reading the text myself, I > just wondered if it was ever pinned down more definitively. I don't think so. > I did lament a little that in the extended scene in Fangorn with the > Hunters, they left out one of my favorite Legolas lines, about the > forest making him feel young in a way that he hadn't felt since > journeying with "you children". :) I hadn't even thought about that, but yeah, it would have been a great line. On the other hand, it would have revealed just how inaccurate Gimli calling him "laddie" really was. :) When I've thought about this question, I've wondered if the comment in the LotR Prologue about Celeborn's departure might actually put a limit on the age of Thranduil. If we assume that Thranduil did not leave for the West before Celeborn did, then the statement that "with [Celeborn] went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" precludes Thranduil from having lived in the First Age. (That's a big assumption, but probably not a bad one: Celeborn was lingering almost alone in Rivendell and his wife was already across the sea, while Thranduil was still king of Mirkwood and his life probably hadn't changed much from the previous few thousand years) That leaves room for Legolas to be about 6000 years old (give or take a few centuries). Whether he actually lived for an appreciable fraction of that or not, I really don't know. If there are any hints in the book that he hadn't been to Mordor before (are there?), that would probably imply that he wasn't born until after his father joined in the Last Alliance, leaving him at most 3000 years old or so. Beyond that, I'm not sure what we can conclude. I'd be interested to see what arguments other people have come up with. (I wonder if they give any hints about his hair color...) Steuard Jensen ###### From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Message-ID: References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: mhaines@io.nanc.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 29 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:10:34 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.111.21 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1069996235 148.63.111.21 (Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:10:35 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:10:35 CST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128568 In article <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > I hadn't even thought about that, but yeah, it would have been a great > line. On the other hand, it would have revealed just how inaccurate > Gimli calling him "laddie" really was. :) True. :) > I'd be interested to > see what arguments other people have come up with. (I wonder if they > give any hints about his hair color...) I imagine you've read most of the essays floating around, but here are couple I've found interesting: http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517 Michelle Flutist -- Drift on a river, That flows through my arms Drift as I'm singing to you I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm And holding you, I'm smiling, too Here in my arms, Safe from all harm Holding you, I'm smiling, too -- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99] ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 27 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1070058510 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:28:30 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:28:30 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: i_Pxb-8121-_4-15821@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: b86821b3 73015f34 43f9b104 36f3e75e 8dce1e05 Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:28:30 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128626 Quoth mhaines@io.nanc.com in article : > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > I'd be interested to see what arguments other people have come up > > with. > I imagine you've read most of the essays floating around... Not really: I've read a few essays here and there, but generally only when I've gone looking for information on specific topics (and I haven't sought out Legolas info very often). > but here are couple I've found interesting: > http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html > http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517 I think Michael's essay (at Suite101) is quite good: it's well thought out, like most of his work, and his conclusion that Legolas is relatively young feels pretty much "right" to me. The other essay is interesting as well, though I don't feel quite the same confidence in it as I do in Michael's (among other things, I feel like it mistakenly connects the coming of the Balrog with Thranduil's move to Northern Mirkwood). Thanks for the links! Steuard Jensen ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:44:35 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 15:46:03 -0800 Message-ID: References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-mUJf3x5A/XVB+MbwTS0+u5on59TZSxAKoMYbhFK1D9O3iySXVOanEPw1PEm3BT6emRu3BxTxdwFkOli!9T1yeLREhCDe0+lIwauJ0twM3w5awOMMnfCoboUpEWkaGnA7raAyMuEitg+1AaUYy3RJZOAOv3Zm!ynTgbGAC X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!216.166.71.118.MISMATCH!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128634 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > Quoth mhaines@io.nanc.com in article > : > > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > > I'd be interested to see what arguments other people have come up > > > with. > > > I imagine you've read most of the essays floating around... > > Not really: I've read a few essays here and there, but generally only > when I've gone looking for information on specific topics (and I > haven't sought out Legolas info very often). > > > but here are couple I've found interesting: > > > http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html > > http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517 > > I think Michael's essay (at Suite101) is quite good: it's well thought > out, like most of his work, and his conclusion that Legolas is > relatively young feels pretty much "right" to me. The other essay is > interesting as well, though I don't feel quite the same confidence in > it as I do in Michael's (among other things, I feel like it mistakenly > connects the coming of the Balrog with Thranduil's move to Northern > Mirkwood). We can draw some conclusions from various sources. Legolas is the oldest of the Fellowship (save Gandalf). He refers to the others as children. He says that he has seen trees grow from seed to death. This indicates a great age. However, Legolas has not seen the Sea, so he had not been in Lindon where Oropher and Thranduil ventured forth from earlier in the Second Age. He is unfamiliar with Eregion where Thranduil and Oropher travelled thru. He is not mentioned when Oropher and Thranduil come to Greenwood or go to the Last Alliance. He also does not know Galadriel and Celeborn, though Oropher and Thranduil retreated away from their incursions into the environs of Lorien. This points to Legolas being born in the Third Age. I think he shows a certain respect or deference to the Twins so he is probably younger than they are (Elladan and Elrohir were born in TA 130). In my opinion he was probably born after Thranduil founded his stronghold in the North of Mirkwood (ca.1000 3rd Age), after the Shadow started to fall on Mirkwood. My own speculation would be that he was born in the mid Third Age, though even later is possible. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Message-ID: References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: mhaines@io.nanc.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 31 Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:21:35 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.111.21 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1070072494 148.63.111.21 (Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:21:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:21:34 CST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128642 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > I think Michael's essay (at Suite101) is quite good: it's well thought > out, like most of his work, and his conclusion that Legolas is > relatively young feels pretty much "right" to me. I haven't re-found the link yet, but there was an essay that was a partial rebuttal to Michael's essay, discussing why he thought 500 years was too low. For one, Legolas makes a comment that he's seen many oaks grow from acorn to ruinous age, and oak trees live about 500 years, and watching all of them concurrently wouldn't make much sense; so this person concluded he had to have seen at least three back-to-back acorn-to-death oak cycles. Which would give him a minimum of 1500 years. Still pretty young, but not the virtual baby 500 years would make. :) I'm probably presenting his argument poorly, but I'll try to find that article when I'm not still in the middle of moving. :/ Michelle Flutist -- Drift on a river, That flows through my arms Drift as I'm singing to you I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm And holding you, I'm smiling, too Here in my arms, Safe from all harm Holding you, I'm smiling, too -- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99] ###### From: "Jon Meltzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:51:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.130.239 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net 1070211094 165.121.130.239 (Sun, 30 Nov 2003 08:51:34 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 08:51:34 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!a91cc34a!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128762 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu... > If we assume that Thranduil did not > leave for the West before Celeborn did, then the statement that "with > [Celeborn] went the last living memory of the Elder Days in > Middle-earth" precludes Thranduil from having lived in the First Age. That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn. ###### From: "vvvv" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:23:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.90.92.194 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.nyc.rr.com 1070216631 24.90.92.194 (Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:23:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:23:51 EST Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-out.nyc.rr.com!twister.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128784 do we know the fate of Legolas, guide of the refugees of Gondolin (BOLT2)? is there any case to be made that our Legolas is the return of the other one from the halls of Mandos (cf. Glorfindel)? What do refurbished Elves remember of their former lives? vvvv > > > I'd be interested to see what arguments other people have come up > > > with. > > > I imagine you've read most of the essays floating around... > > Not really: I've read a few essays here and there, but generally only > when I've gone looking for information on specific topics (and I > haven't sought out Legolas info very often). > > > but here are couple I've found interesting: > > > http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html > > http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517 > ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:50:05 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:50:14 -0800 Message-ID: References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-aBMPhsSntV+CR8jjxqCM+TFfmYY+z4Y5RSrqkpsXs989U12cXCi2kgNYYTSew4D2104D/gj9DemIMEF!8TzUIiutnehqImW3Se/UGsjsoCCBwAjAFkvs3cMvyxW1dby7xS3+IHf095pQ+UV1RvnQgBNffoKr!CGgGReej X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128786 In article , noone@nowhere.com says... > do we know the fate of Legolas, guide of the refugees of Gondolin (BOLT2)? He went to Tol Eressea following the defeat of Melko. > is there any case to be made that our Legolas is the return of the other one > from the halls of Mandos (cf. Glorfindel)? No. Though some have tried. BolT Legolas did not die. > What do refurbished Elves > remember of their former lives? They eventially recover their memories. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1070224156 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:29:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:29:16 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: wqsyb-1017-o5-2170@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: ea3fbb0e 4bd16346 4dcf3082 ca5fbe3f 1bf60db8 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:29:16 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128795 Quoth "Jon Meltzer" in article : > "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > If we assume that Thranduil did not leave for the West before > > Celeborn did, then the statement that "with [Celeborn] went the > > last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" precludes > > Thranduil from having lived in the First Age. > That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn. Or with him: Celeborn sailing on "the Last Ship" seems like a reasonable scenario to me. I wonder how widely publicized among the Elves the final major departure from Middle-earth was, and whether there was a rush of lingerers to leave with it (or before it)? Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Jim Heckman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:58:21 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: News Rover 8.0.2 (http://www.NewsRover.com) Mime-proxy/1.3.c.0 (Win32) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.222.22.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:129197 On 30-Nov-2003, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message : > Quoth "Jon Meltzer" in article > : > > > "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > > If we assume that Thranduil did not leave for the West before > > > Celeborn did, then the statement that "with [Celeborn] went the > > > last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" precludes > > > Thranduil from having lived in the First Age. > > > That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn. > > Or with him: Celeborn sailing on "the Last Ship" seems like a > reasonable scenario to me. I wonder how widely publicized among the > Elves the final major departure from Middle-earth was, and whether > there was a rush of lingerers to leave with it (or before it)? The final few paragraphs of _Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_ in Sil seem to me to strongly imply that Círdan, and the last of the Noldor, left with Bilbo, Frodo and the Keepers of the Three. I must admit that this doesn't quite square with my own fantasy that Círdan still waits by the Western shore of Middle-Earth for "the last ship" to sail :-) -- Jim Heckman ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Date: 3 Dec 2003 15:36:52 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 42 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!38.119.100.83.MISMATCH!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator-sterling!in.nntp.be!gumby.it.wmich.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:129240 Jim Heckman wrote: : On 30-Nov-2003, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote : in message : :> Quoth "Jon Meltzer" in article :> : :> :> > "Steuard Jensen" wrote: :> > > If we assume that Thranduil did not leave for the West before :> > > Celeborn did, then the statement that "with [Celeborn] went the :> > > last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" precludes :> > > Thranduil from having lived in the First Age. :> :> > That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn. :> :> Or with him: Celeborn sailing on "the Last Ship" seems like a :> reasonable scenario to me. I wonder how widely publicized among the :> Elves the final major departure from Middle-earth was, and whether :> there was a rush of lingerers to leave with it (or before it)? : The final few paragraphs of _Of the Rings of Power and the Third : Age_ in Sil seem to me to strongly imply that Círdan, and the : last of the Noldor, left with Bilbo, Frodo and the Keepers of : the Three. I must admit that this doesn't quite square with my : own fantasy that Círdan still waits by the Western shore of : Middle-Earth for "the last ship" to sail :-) Appendix A of the LotR has this line "At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan or in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they are few.'" which implies that Cirdan remained. Of course, this has the "some say" qualifier, which many people take to mean that it is not necessarily so. Stephen ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:59:43 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:02:00 -0800 Message-ID: References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-Z1XWjtFFsWkhfze08iz6kF5tdy43s3MkDNZ7g+Km+LpiV7MKBVLUBYB7kwKGbFqeqUFMN2fXWW6Xzjt!CLuA6b9QUM7Z+sL/qCS5i0GKr+GD3zczraCoErAkyr71acLXqK9I5T9moZjmwCAFUQ9lUqMOJb//!RaCIqFfb X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:129330 In article , stephen@nomail.com says... > Jim Heckman wrote: > > : On 30-Nov-2003, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote > : in message : > > :> Quoth "Jon Meltzer" in article > :> : > :> > :> > "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > :> > > If we assume that Thranduil did not leave for the West before > :> > > Celeborn did, then the statement that "with [Celeborn] went the > :> > > last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" precludes > :> > > Thranduil from having lived in the First Age. > :> > :> > That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn. > :> > :> Or with him: Celeborn sailing on "the Last Ship" seems like a > :> reasonable scenario to me. I wonder how widely publicized among the > :> Elves the final major departure from Middle-earth was, and whether > :> there was a rush of lingerers to leave with it (or before it)? > > : The final few paragraphs of _Of the Rings of Power and the Third > : Age_ in Sil seem to me to strongly imply that Círdan, and the > : last of the Noldor, left with Bilbo, Frodo and the Keepers of > : the Three. I must admit that this doesn't quite square with my > : own fantasy that Círdan still waits by the Western shore of > : Middle-Earth for "the last ship" to sail :-) > > Appendix A of the LotR has this line > > "At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some > say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into > the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves > that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan or > in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they > are few.'" > > which implies that Cirdan remained. Of course, this has > the "some say" qualifier, which many people take to mean > that it is not necessarily so. > Also, the Prologue to LotR notes that some of the Noldor remained into the Fourth Age. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 16:45:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.136.119 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1070729107 162.83.136.119 (Sat, 06 Dec 2003 11:45:07 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 11:45:07 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:129813 wrote in message news:bqkvul$toi$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > Appendix A of the LotR has this line > > "At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some > say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into > the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves > that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan or > in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they > are few.'" > > which implies that Cirdan remained. Of course, this has > the "some say" qualifier, which many people take to mean > that it is not necessarily so. > > Stephen Yes, I like that qualification. It's one of JRRT's little jokes in imitation of genuine knowledge rather than admit he made the whole thing up. He couldn't think of a perfectly fitting time for the last ship to sail, so he decided to leave it fairy-tale vague. If you believe the rest of it is true, then why ruin things for you by saying it's all over? Cute. Tsar P ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:20:15 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:129868 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born wrote: >It's one of JRRT's little jokes in imitation of genuine knowledge rather >than admit he made the whole thing up. He DID???? Heretic! -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5apxb.25$_4.8072@news.uchicago.edu> Subject: Re: How old is Legolas? Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <85RAb.3352$iy6.1845@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:11:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.155.139.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1070849476 141.155.139.66 (Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:11:16 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:11:16 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:130024 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1a3c2e3f6b23fd6e98b8de@news.odyssey.net... > In article in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born > wrote: > >It's one of JRRT's little jokes in imitation of genuine knowledge rather > >than admit he made the whole thing up. > > He DID???? > > Heretic! I'd say "Mea culpa" but heretics don't say that, do they? Tsar P