From: Lugalzagesi Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elves dragging their feet Organization: King of Kish Reply-To: Lugalzagesi@fakeaddress.sumeria.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 23:49:06 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.11.196.140 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: fed1read07 1068356887 68.11.196.140 (Sun, 09 Nov 2003 00:48:07 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 00:48:07 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!p01!fed1read07.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125960 Just 2 quick questions for the more tolkien-knowledgeable than me : After the end of the 3rd age (since Cirdan left with the last of the Noldor, Frodo et al) did some other elves stay at the grey havens to continue to build ships for other elves who get the urge to go over west over the sea? Or did later Elves that desired to go west have to build their own ships, like Legolas did? Second, assuming elves could stiill sail west in the 4th age & after, did Tolkien ever say what happened to the elves that stayed in ME, like Thranduil ? Did they all eventually tire of Middle earth and have to go west over the centuries/millennia? Or simply fade away? Any answers or ruminations welcome. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 01:36:43 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves dragging their feet Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 23:37:00 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-m5VeTQVY/LQUZZe6lEzxh+GANOazq0PTlmUmRT/dUHZxo6nGA6h3surnLp26FZva3ScNbmi/07vUpiQ!6MwaSoBn/nX1yQuUMpwvEhJzH2zUE9Yf/u+Lfr4JrHEoYZdcryMCER8RJW5FK4ECepXHIWWXrsS2!OoT5CCqt X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125965 In article , Lugalzagesi@fakeaddress.sumeria.com says... > Just 2 quick questions for the more tolkien-knowledgeable than me : > > After the end of the 3rd age (since Cirdan left with the last of the > Noldor, Frodo et al) did some other elves stay at the grey havens to > continue to build ships for other elves who get the urge to go over > west over the sea? Or did later Elves that desired to go west have to > build their own ships, like Legolas did? The last of the Noldor did not leave with Frodo et. all. This comes from Of the Rings of Power (RoP), which was written before the completion of LotR and is superceded by it. According to LotR some High Elves stayed into the Fourth Age. That Cirdan left with Elrond etc. is also suggested by RoP, but LotR can be taken to suggest that Cirdan remained as well. > > Second, assuming elves could stiill sail west in the 4th age & after, > did Tolkien ever say what happened to the elves that stayed in ME, > like Thranduil ? Did they all eventually tire of Middle earth and have > to go west over the centuries/millennia? Or simply fade away? Some stayed and faded, others did not. > > Any answers or ruminations welcome. > -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves dragging their feet Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:05:14 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-184-74.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: sparta.btinternet.com 1068390314 25283 213.122.184.74 (9 Nov 2003 15:05:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:05:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.netkonect.net!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125978 "Tar-Elenion" wrote in message news:MPG.1a178e797bad97ca989794@news.comcast.giganews.com... > In article , > Lugalzagesi@fakeaddress.sumeria.com says... > > Just 2 quick questions for the more tolkien-knowledgeable than me : > > > > After the end of the 3rd age (since Cirdan left with the last of the > > Noldor, Frodo et al) did some other elves stay at the grey havens to > > continue to build ships for other elves who get the urge to go over > > west over the sea? Or did later Elves that desired to go west have to > > build their own ships, like Legolas did? > > The last of the Noldor did not leave with Frodo et. all. This comes from > Of the Rings of Power (RoP), which was written before the completion of > LotR and is superceded by it. According to LotR some High Elves stayed > into the Fourth Age. That Cirdan left with Elrond etc. is also suggested > by RoP, but LotR can be taken to suggest that Cirdan remained as well. Yes, certainly many did leave but others hung around for a bit longer although for how long is something that will never be answered exactly. But certainly, what I got from the Grey Havens chapter is that Cirdan stayed behind. I imagine that he considered it his duty to remain behind until all those had left who wanted to. Certainly, by the end of Aragorn's reign in 121FA, there wouldn't be many left; This is hinted at in a couple of comments in 'the tale of Aragorn and Arwen' which we can take as canonical as it is included in the appendices. Aragorn mentions the gardens of Rivindell 'where none now walk' and Lorien is referred to as a place where Galadriel had passed away and 'the land was silent'. However, although it was likely that by 121, Lorien and Rivendell were deserted, or nearly so, we still have all the wood elves of Mirkwood, ok they are 'lesser' elves but it seems that they continued to live quite happily in the Greenwood; who knows, maybe they were rejoicing now that all those poncy Nolder and Sindar were sodding off to Valinor! At the end of the day, I don't think that many elves would choose to remain in ME for long now that 'the age of men' was upon them in a big way. Some have postulated that the wood elves might have stayed throughout the fourth age, perhaps leaving early in the 5th age, but this is just conjecture. I think it is clear from the theme portrayed in tlotr that the end of the 3rd age was the 'last gasp' of the elves and they would stay in middle earth for very long into the 4th age itself. The comments in 'the tale of Aragorn & Arwen' support this, although as I said, who knows how long the wood elves of Mirkwood decided to stay.. I don't think we can ever answer this one decisively! Douglas . ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves dragging their feet Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 10:09:30 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125980 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Lugalzagesi wrote: >After the end of the 3rd age (since Cirdan left with the last of the >Noldor, Frodo et al) did some other elves stay at the grey havens to >continue to build ships for other elves who get the urge to go over >west over the sea? Or did later Elves that desired to go west have to >build their own ships, like Legolas did? I don't believe we were ever told in so many words. But I think if Legolas had to build his own ship, then any later Elves would also have had to. >Second, assuming elves could stiill sail west in the 4th age & after, >did Tolkien ever say what happened to the elves that stayed in ME, >like Thranduil ? Did they all eventually tire of Middle earth and have >to go west over the centuries/millennia? Or simply fade away? This we are told, in various places: Elves who stayed in Middle- earth gradually "faded" to the point where they were effectively invisible. I think this may be how Tolkien resolved the contrast between his Elves -- great warriors and sages, taller, stronger, and more noble than Men -- with Shakespeare's cutesy little sprites. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves dragging their feet Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 10:13:07 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125981 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Douglas Eckhart wrote: >Some have postulated that the wood elves might have stayed throughout the >fourth age, perhaps leaving early in the 5th age, but this is just >conjecture. Did the wood-elves even have the right to cross the sea? Weren't they descended from those who refused the Great Journey? And if that's true, once the invitation was refused weren't they unable later to change their minds and accept? I always get confused on these points, so maybe I'm wrong. Anyone have some citations? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves dragging their feet Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 08:38:08 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c116.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125984 > At the end of the day, I don't think that many elves would choose to remain > in ME for long now that 'the age of men' was upon them in a big way. > Some have postulated that the wood elves might have stayed throughout the > fourth age, perhaps leaving early in the 5th age, but this is just > conjecture. I think it is clear from the theme portrayed in tlotr that the the avari were not allowed to go to aman but were to remain in endor until the end anyway if your expected life span is a few billions years a few millenia are too brief to be considered draggng their feet ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 11:12:40 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves dragging their feet Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 09:12:48 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-HVb2afbywXgaVn/+trMCwiSIPdqWW+r7048XKh6xfrOX0N4c+x6sT0cdMfzq0UeF4jvbzWaIyATYJ46!tGOMws/OZm0eDaGe6Gmx3yIaKA6MTnnZNlCb3ZvYHrI5G2lE03R2ZTU2+JWnpXXRrWTGmE06aQGi!ZHE9VxT4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125992 In article , the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm says... > In article in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, Douglas Eckhart > wrote: > >Some have postulated that the wood elves might have stayed throughout the > >fourth age, perhaps leaving early in the 5th age, but this is just > >conjecture. > > Did the wood-elves even have the right to cross the sea? Weren't > they descended from those who refused the Great Journey? And if > that's true, once the invitation was refused weren't they unable > later to change their minds and accept? > > I always get confused on these points, so maybe I'm wrong. Anyone > have some citations? I can't dig them out right now, but yes they did, I will point out that Mithrellas was going over sea when she was taken to wife by Imrazor, so was Nimrodel. > > -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 01:30:04 -0600 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Jeff MacDonald Subject: Re: Elves dragging their feet References: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:58:26 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.101.29.2 X-Trace: sv3-EUHoSB076Td+48qekAfqLkDJdnTsQxtJc2cS8Nd64Ctbl0aF8ZhT2ryuuCxF8C6GJ6M4OX7AOobNdkH!IBc5rhWfEyRI0zJa27tOGlRTG6DngTOkhUzs9gvXOtDuIvmSwW+L4XYZ9Goc0AOWR6jcT3xe5Bwp!C/T0r92UQ7SaHzbAubM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126281 On 2003-11-09, coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote: > the avari were not allowed to go to aman > but were to remain in endor until the end > What happened to those who died? Did they stay in Mandos or were they forcibly reincarnated (reborn?) back in Middle Earth? And the children of the original Unwilling also fall under this ban of course. This is another Catholic original sin thing right? Not just the Valar being idiots? -- -- thejeff -- Love your enemies: they'll go crazy trying to figure out what you're up to. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves dragging their feet Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:17:57 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126460 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Jeff MacDonald wrote: >What happened to those who died? Did they stay in Mandos or were they >forcibly reincarnated (reborn?) back in Middle Earth? Elves were never forcibly reincarnated. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves dragging their feet Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:52:21 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3fb26291.3839430@news.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-nov-vty134.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1068655938 12218 216.192.80.134 (12 Nov 2003 16:52:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:52:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126517 On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 23:37:00 -0800, Tar-Elenion wrote: >In article , >Lugalzagesi@fakeaddress.sumeria.com says... >> Just 2 quick questions for the more tolkien-knowledgeable than me : > >Some stayed and faded, others did not. Go not to the newsgroups for counsel, for they will say both no and yes. Jim Deutch -- "Power corrupts, but we all need electricity"