From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 1 Nov 2003 18:10:38 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 5 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.34.124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1067739039 6371 127.0.0.1 (2 Nov 2003 02:10:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 02:10:39 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125328 For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for sin. Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:17:33 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c102.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125330 In article <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com>, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: > For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing > is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for > sin. > > Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? death isnt the gift transcendence is you justy have to have estel that there is transcendence of death both personal and of arda the elves dont have a guarentee of transcendence of the death of arda and while they live a very long time they are facing a possibility of abnegation after all of it ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? From: Graham Lockwood Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:50:57 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.7.176.92 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: fed1read07 1067748657 68.7.176.92 (Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:50:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:50:57 EST Organization: Cox Communications Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!p01!fed1read07.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125335 zett said: > For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing > is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for > sin. > > Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? AFAIK, Judaism and its various offshoots are the only religions that ever treat human mortality as a punishment for sin. So it's hardly a revolutionary idea. ||// // "The narrative ends here. || // |// // There is no reason to think ||// (/ // that any more was ever written. |// ||// The manuscript, which becomes // |// increasingly rapid towards the end, //| (/ peters out in a scrawl." //|| || -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // || ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 00:21:06 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125338 In article <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, zett wrote: >For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing >is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for >sin. > >Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? I think it is a natural extension of his religious faith. As I understand them, Christians believe that death is part of the original punishment for sin. However, death is also the means by which believers enter into the presence of their god. From that it's not much of a stretch to make death the means of entering into the presence of a god _without_ having it be a punishment for sin. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 2 Nov 2003 08:59:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.32.160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1067792348 28755 127.0.0.1 (2 Nov 2003 16:59:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:59:08 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125352 mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) wrote in message news:... [snip] > > the elves dont have a guarentee of transcendence of the death of arda > and while they live a very long time > they are facing a possibility of abnegation after all of it So, the Elves are required to have faith/estel too- and they are not really so much better off than Man. I mean in the sense of having their own fear of the hearafter. The answer is just put off longer. Is that it? ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 2 Nov 2003 09:05:17 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311020905.26887113@posting.google.com> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.32.160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1067792718 29164 127.0.0.1 (2 Nov 2003 17:05:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:05:18 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125353 Graham Lockwood wrote in message news:... [snip] > AFAIK, Judaism and its various offshoots are the only religions that ever > treat human mortality as a punishment for sin. So it's hardly a > revolutionary idea. [snip] Thanks for your answer- that is what I wondered about. Ok, so it is not a revolutionary idea in and of itself- but I still think it is cool that someone that was devoted to one of the offshoots of Judaism would play with ideas that aren't part of his religion's teachings. ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 2 Nov 2003 09:39:22 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311020939.7223c810@posting.google.com> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.32.160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1067794762 31402 127.0.0.1 (2 Nov 2003 17:39:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:39:22 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125354 Stan Brown wrote in message news:... > In article <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, zett wrote: > >For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing > >is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for > >sin. > > > >Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? > > I think it is a natural extension of his religious faith. > > As I understand them, Christians believe that death is part of the > original punishment for sin. However, death is also the means by > which believers enter into the presence of their god. > > From that it's not much of a stretch to make death the means of > entering into the presence of a god _without_ having it be a > punishment for sin. [snip] I see what you are saying, but based on the kind of Christianity I was raised with, it *is* a stretch, a huge, wonderful stretch. I much prefer the idea over official Christian doctrine -at least the way the church of my childhood put it. Also, as creation stories go, I prefer the Sil. over the Bible. {thunder and lightning in the distance} {JRRT spins in his grave} [snip] ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:27:59 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c101.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125362 In article <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com>, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: > mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) wrote in message news:... > > [snip] > > > > the elves dont have a guarentee of transcendence of the death of arda > > and while they live a very long time > > they are facing a possibility of abnegation after all of it > > So, the Elves are required to have faith/estel too- and they are not > really so much better off than Man. I mean in the sense of having > their own fear of the hearafter. The answer is just put off longer. Is > that it? somewhere in home theres a conversation between an elfman and humanwpman about this very issue ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:11:12 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125373 In article <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, zett wrote: >So, the Elves are required to have faith/estel too- and they are not >really so much better off than Man. I mean in the sense of having >their own fear of the hearafter. The answer is just put off longer. Is >that it? Maybe initially, But many Elves know at least one Elf who returned after dying. For instance, every Elf in Rivendell would know from Glorfindel's experience that Elves were reincarnated. And of course hundreds or thousands of reincarnated elves were living in the Undying Lands. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 02:39:42 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020905.26887113@posting.google.com> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.239.184.20 X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1067827627 22138 155.239.184.20 (3 Nov 2003 02:47:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2003 02:47:07 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!carbon.eu.sun.com!btnet-feed5!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125376 On 2 Nov 2003 09:05:17 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: >Graham Lockwood wrote in message news:... >[snip] > >> AFAIK, Judaism and its various offshoots are the only religions that ever >> treat human mortality as a punishment for sin. So it's hardly a >> revolutionary idea. > >[snip] > >Thanks for your answer- that is what I wondered about. Ok, so it is >not a revolutionary idea in and of itself- but I still think it is >cool that someone that was devoted to one of the offshoots of Judaism >would play with ideas that aren't part of his religion's teachings. Is the idea of death as a punishment really part of Judaism? -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 02:39:43 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3fa5be66.53312244@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020939.7223c810@posting.google.com> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.239.184.20 X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1067827628 22138 155.239.184.20 (3 Nov 2003 02:47:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2003 02:47:08 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!carbon.eu.sun.com!btnet-feed5!newreader.ukcore.bt.net!btnet-feed3!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125377 On 2 Nov 2003 09:39:22 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: >Stan Brown wrote in message news:... >> In article <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> in >> rec.arts.books.tolkien, zett wrote: >> >For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing >> >is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for >> >sin. >> > >> >Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? >> >> I think it is a natural extension of his religious faith. >> >> As I understand them, Christians believe that death is part of the >> original punishment for sin. However, death is also the means by >> which believers enter into the presence of their god. >> >> From that it's not much of a stretch to make death the means of >> entering into the presence of a god _without_ having it be a >> punishment for sin. >[snip] > >I see what you are saying, but based on the kind of Christianity I was >raised with, it *is* a stretch, a huge, wonderful stretch. I much >prefer the idea over official Christian doctrine -at least the way the >church of my childhood put it. Also, as creation stories go, I prefer >the Sil. over the Bible. There's little difference in the meaning of the creation stories, since Tolkien's was based on Christian tradition. The idea of death as a punishment for sin is not in the Biblical accounts of creation, and the account of sin's entrance in the Silmarillion is pretty much in line with that in Genesis. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:57:08 -0500 Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1067831835 42277977 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!130.133.1.4.MISMATCH!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125391 Stan Brown wrote: > As I understand them, Christians believe that death is part of the > original punishment for sin. However, death is also the means by > which believers enter into the presence of their god. In the Hebrew mythology, G-D walked in the Garden and kept the man and woman company. G-D talked to Kayin (Cain) and Havel (Able). After Kayin slew Havel, Kayin pleaded directly with G-D that his punishment is too great to bear, and G-D obliged by puting a sign on Kayin, that no one should kill him (Capital Punishment Advocates, take notice!). G-D talked directly tho Noach and gave him instructions on how to build the Ark. Moshe (Moses) had a 40 year conversation with G-D. Several characters in the bible never suffered death. Enoch, Elijah for example. Both were taken without suffering death. In Hebraic thinking, mortal death was considered natural as man was never made to be immortal as man in a body of flesh. From dust you were made, and to dust you shall return. etc. etc. Man's punishment for disobediance was not death, but expulsion from Eden. Man was compelled to work for his sustainance. In Eden he had it handed to him by G-D, in exchange for very light duties. In Hebraic thinking the notion of immortality (of soul) and a Hereafter were not well developed. The Semitic notion of Sheol, a shadowy world after death, somewhat like the pagan Hades, not a place of eternal damnation nor of punishment. Bob Kolker ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 23:39:27 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020905.26887113@posting.google.com> <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125382 In article <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steve Hayes wrote: >Is the idea of death as a punishment really part of Judaism? Yes, of course. It's in Genesis -- along with painful childbirth and having to work for food. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 07:56:53 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.239.184.196 X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1067846660 1844 155.239.184.196 (3 Nov 2003 08:04:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2003 08:04:20 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125386 On 1 Nov 2003 18:10:38 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: >For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing >is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for >sin. > >Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? From Christianity? I come back to your original question after having read some of the responses, which seem rather strange and inadequate to me. A lot dpends on what you mean by "natural" and "punishment", and you may need to elaborate on that a bit. What do you understand by them, and can you refer to some of the things that Tolkien says about it? Soemone attributed the idea of death as a punishment for sin to Judaism and religions emanating from it -- but I think that is a moot point. In what way, and in what sense, does he think Judaism teaches that? I'm not aware of it, and I've asked Jewish friends about it, but haven't had any replies yet. But it seems that it may be misrepresenting Judaism. So could you elaborate a bit on what you are asking? -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: Michael Graf Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 09:58:00 +0100 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline44.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1067850158 17587 131.246.65.44 (3 Nov 2003 09:02:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:02:38 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; de-DE; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031013 Thunderbird/0.3 X-Accept-Language: de-de, de-at, de, en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125388 Stan Brown schrieb: > Maybe initially, But many Elves know at least one Elf who returned > after dying. For instance, every Elf in Rivendell would know from > Glorfindel's experience that Elves were reincarnated. And of course > hundreds or thousands of reincarnated elves were living in the > Undying Lands. The reincarnation after a more or less short 'holiday' in Mandos' Halls is certainly no rumour, but a fact for every elf. Yet they don't know what will happen to them after the last battle, when Arda will have been broken. As Men are not bound to Arda, one can guess that they're not directly affected by its ruin, whereas the Elves, who are of the 'flesh of Arda', should worry a little bit about things to come. Furthermore it might well be that as well as the Elves got tired of Middle-Earth, they will get tired of whole Arda as well, including Aman. Yet they cannot leave. So one could discuss about who's punished and who's not. -- mfg Michael ###### Lines: 16 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 Nov 2003 15:07:34 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m24) Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <20031103100734.29660.00001424@mb-m24.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125409 In article , Stan Brown writes: >From that it's not much of a stretch to make death the means of >entering into the presence of a god _without_ having it be a >punishment for sin. What Tolkien wrote was that Mortality was Man's natural state whereas Death was the punishment for the Fall. Death is simply the post-Fall means by which Mortality is completed. Tolkien wrote that 'assumption' would have been Man's pre-Fall means by which Mortality was completed. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### Lines: 16 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 Nov 2003 15:07:35 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m24) Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <20031103100735.29660.00001425@mb-m24.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125410 >zett said: >> For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing >> is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for >> sin. >> >> Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? Actually, that's not quite what Tolkien wrote. He said Mortality is the natural state of Man but Death is the punishment for sin. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: "Membranous Gauss" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:09:59 +0200 Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020905.26887113@posting.google.com> <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: wblv-254-201.telkomadsl.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1067872008 14414 165.165.254.201 (3 Nov 2003 15:06:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2003 15:06:48 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125408 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.1a0fa607838fe02198b6a1@news.odyssey.net... > In article <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steve Hayes wrote: > >Is the idea of death as a punishment really part of Judaism? > > Yes, of course. It's in Genesis -- along with painful childbirth and > having to work for food. > Not exactly. The painful childbirth, menstruation, working for food, are all punishment for the original sin, but mortality is not a punishment but rather a necessary change to the original order. In Judaism, the idea is that in Eden, Adam and Eve were permitted to eat from any tree except the Tree of Knowledge. This means that humans were permitted to eat from the Tree of Life - and thus be immortal. But once they had eaten of the tree of Knowledge, they could not be permitted immortality. Not as a punishment, but to prevent certain results which would arise from infinite knowledge and infinite life being granted to a person. In fact the Jewish view is that the punishment is not so much for disobeying God, but rather for making Humankind mortal. *In other words mortality is not part of the punishment, but actually part of the sin* Since the original sin and the changing of the order of the world, death is a way of reconnecting to God and part of the cycle of the human soul's purpose - which is to attain Godliness. So death is not a punishment. Now if one were to consider another race who could not reconnect with the Godhead in such a way, but were in fact spiritually bonded to the world, then death would be seen as a gift in comparison. Tolkien's ideas about human mortality are not new and are IMO firmly rooted in Judaeo-Christian beliefs, but the perception of mortality as a gift if compared to another race who lacked mortality seems to me to be one of the most beautiful concepts in Tolkien's work. Whether this comparison had been discussed earlier by other writers, philosophers or theologians, I am not sure, but in Tolkien it is magically presented. It is a concept that makes Tolkien worthy of serious study in all three of the abovementioned fields: literature, philosophy and theology. Gauss ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:42:23 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20031103100734.29660.00001424@mb-m24.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125416 In article <20031103100734.29660.00001424@mb-m24.aol.com> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Russ wrote: >What Tolkien wrote was that Mortality was Man's natural state whereas Death was >the punishment for the Fall. Death is simply the post-Fall means by which >Mortality is completed. Tolkien wrote that 'assumption' would have been Man's >pre-Fall means by which Mortality was completed. Citation, please? It sounds like something that would be in /Letters/, but I've just grepped my copy and I don't find it there. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 28 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 Nov 2003 16:57:56 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m14) Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <20031103115756.11022.00001834@mb-m14.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeds.sol.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125418 In article , Stan Brown writes: >In article <20031103100734.29660.00001424@mb-m24.aol.com> in >rec.arts.books.tolkien, Russ wrote: >>What Tolkien wrote was that Mortality was Man's natural state whereas Death >was >>the punishment for the Fall. Death is simply the post-Fall means by which >>Mortality is completed. Tolkien wrote that 'assumption' would have been >Man's >>pre-Fall means by which Mortality was completed. > >Citation, please? > >It sounds like something that would be in /Letters/, but I've just >grepped my copy and I don't find it there. Athrabeth, Note 4 I think: "In other words that 'assumption' was the natural end of each human life, though as far as we know it has been the end of the only 'unfallen' member of Mankind." (pg 317) Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:36:50 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3fa60acb.72872221@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020905.26887113@posting.google.com> <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-2-p54.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1067881456 20620 155.239.169.54 (3 Nov 2003 17:44:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2003 17:44:16 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125421 On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 23:39:27 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: >In article <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> in >rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steve Hayes wrote: >>Is the idea of death as a punishment really part of Judaism? > >Yes, of course. It's in Genesis -- along with painful childbirth and >having to work for food. Where in Genesis? I've not seen anything about death as a punishment for sin, only as a consequence. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 3 Nov 2003 14:07:20 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311031407.76d545c9@posting.google.com> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.35.17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1067897240 15345 127.0.0.1 (3 Nov 2003 22:07:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:07:20 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125441 Stan Brown wrote in message news:... > In article <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com> in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, zett wrote: > >So, the Elves are required to have faith/estel too- and they are not > >really so much better off than Man. I mean in the sense of having > >their own fear of the hearafter. The answer is just put off longer. Is > >that it? > > We heard you the first time. I don't know why this posted again, I didn't do anything (so far as I can tell) to make it post again. Sorry for the annoyance. My computer has been giving me problems lately. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 3 Nov 2003 22:13:49 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 14 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311031407.76d545c9@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125442 zett wrote: : Stan Brown wrote in message news:... :> :> We heard you the first time. : I don't know why this posted again, I didn't do anything (so far as I : can tell) to make it post again. Sorry for the annoyance. My : computer has been giving me problems lately. Did it post again? Your response and original post only showed up once on my server, and they only show up once on google. Stephen ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 3 Nov 2003 16:17:17 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 58 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.35.17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1067905037 24447 127.0.0.1 (4 Nov 2003 00:17:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:17:17 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125449 hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net>... > On 1 Nov 2003 18:10:38 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: > > >For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing > >is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for > >sin. > > > >Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? > > From Christianity? [snip] > A lot dpends on what you mean by "natural" and "punishment", and you may need > to elaborate on that a bit. What do you understand by them, and can you refer > to some of the things that Tolkien says about it? Well, what I meant by natural was this: qualities or actions typical of beings from the beginning of their existence, so far as it is known. As for punishment, I was thinking of my personal experience of Christianity: punishment as something unpleasant God makes or allows you go through as a result of your having done something He didn't want done. I can't think of where Tolkien defines 'punishment' or 'natural' but Tolkien did write this about the Elvish POV of human death in Arda vs the Christian POV of death in the primary world: (found in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter 212 -the draft continuation- p 285 in my 1995 HM paperback) '...*Mortality*, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature on Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Iluvatar (God). But it must be remembered that *mythically* these tales are Elf-centered, not anthropocentric, and Men only appear in them, at what must be a point long after their Coming. This is therefore an 'Elvish' view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against __such beliefs as the Christian that 'death' is not part of human nature, but a punishment for sin(rebellion), a result of the 'Fall'.__ It should be regarded as an Elvish perception...' (__=my emphasis) This suggests to me that Tolkien did not get the idea from Christianity, else he would not have done a comparison like this. Though I do see that the word death is in single quotes there and maybe that means something that I am missing... As for Judaism, and whether or not other posters speak accurately about it: I don't know- I know very, very little about Judaism. (Though I would be glad to learn more). When I posed my question, I hoped for an answer like: "So-and-so in _______book postulates that Tolkien, while working with the information from a bunch of ancient musty documents, came across the story of the blah blah people and he took elements from that and re-worked them into the Elvish perception of Human mortality as told in the Silmarillion." Alas, no simple answer like that is forthcoming. ;) ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:28:19 -0500 Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020905.26887113@posting.google.com> <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1067905699 43390459 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125450 Steve Hayes wrote: > Is the idea of death as a punishment really part of Judaism? It is not. Death comes to all, the wicked and the righteous, with a few notable exceptions (Enoch, Elijah). Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:31:26 -0500 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020905.26887113@posting.google.com> <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1067905889 43390459 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125451 Stan Brown wrote: > In article <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> in > rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steve Hayes wrote: > >>Is the idea of death as a punishment really part of Judaism? > > > Yes, of course. It's in Genesis -- along with painful childbirth and > having to work for food. There is no evidence in Genisis that the man would have lived forever (in the physical sense). The pain of childbirth was a punishment on Eve, but natural for all subsequent women. Working for one's living was a consequence of being expelled from Eden. Part of eating of the fruit of knowledge was knowing that nothing is really for free. TANSTAAFL. Bob Kolker > ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 02:37:08 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 58 Message-ID: <3fa70669.137296576@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020905.26887113@posting.google.com> <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-1-p283.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1067913881 7614 155.239.185.27 (4 Nov 2003 02:44:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Nov 2003 02:44:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125452 On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:31:26 -0500, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >Stan Brown wrote: > >> In article <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> in >> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steve Hayes wrote: >> >>>Is the idea of death as a punishment really part of Judaism? >> >> >> Yes, of course. It's in Genesis -- along with painful childbirth and >> having to work for food. > >There is no evidence in Genisis that the man would have lived forever >(in the physical sense). The pain of childbirth was a punishment on Eve, >but natural for all subsequent women. Working for one's living was a >consequence of being expelled from Eden. Part of eating of the fruit of >knowledge was knowing that nothing is really for free. TANSTAAFL. I asked a few others, and though I don't think this is an authoritative source on Judaism, it is worth considering: -- quote -- I don't think that is the case. It sounds like Augustinian Original Sin. Here is a rather old but thorough (at the time) evaluation of whether Judaism had anything resembling Augustine's understanding of original sin. It is from C. G. Bretschneider's Manual of Dogmatic History: SINCE Gen. 3: contains nothing respecting the origin of entailed sin, it should not surprise us that no part of the Old Testament makes any use of this chapter, and that it speaks only in general of the sinfulness of man without any particular explanations of the subject. Moreover death is presented throughout the Old Testament as occurring in the course of nature and not as a consequence of Adam's sin. First during the exile the Jews began to reflect upon the origin of moral evil, and to find historically the source of sin and death in Gen. 3. Probably their reflections on this subject were prompted by the teachings of Zoroaster.* -- end quote -- -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 02:37:10 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 133 Message-ID: <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-1-p283.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1067913883 7614 155.239.185.27 (4 Nov 2003 02:44:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Nov 2003 02:44:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!carbon.eu.sun.com!btnet-feed5!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125453 On 3 Nov 2003 16:17:17 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: >hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net>... >> On 1 Nov 2003 18:10:38 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: >> >> >For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing >> >is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for >> >sin. >> > >> >Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? >> >> From Christianity? > >[snip] > >> A lot dpends on what you mean by "natural" and "punishment", and you may need >> to elaborate on that a bit. What do you understand by them, and can you refer >> to some of the things that Tolkien says about it? > >Well, what I meant by natural was this: qualities or actions typical >of beings from the beginning of their existence, so far as it is >known. As for punishment, I was thinking of my personal experience of >Christianity: punishment as something unpleasant God makes or allows >you go through as a result of your having done something He didn't >want done. I can't think of where Tolkien defines 'punishment' or >'natural' but Tolkien did write this about the Elvish POV of human >death in Arda vs the Christian POV of death in the primary world: >(found in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter 212 -the draft >continuation- p 285 in my 1995 HM paperback) > >'...*Mortality*, that is a short life-span having no relation to the >life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature on Men: the Elves >called it the Gift of Iluvatar (God). But it must be remembered that >*mythically* these tales are Elf-centered, not anthropocentric, and >Men only appear in them, at what must be a point long after their >Coming. This is therefore an 'Elvish' view, and does not necessarily >have anything to say for or against __such beliefs as the Christian >that 'death' is not part of human nature, but a punishment for >sin(rebellion), a result of the 'Fall'.__ It should be regarded as an >Elvish perception...' > >(__=my emphasis) > >This suggests to me that Tolkien did not get the idea from >Christianity, else he would not have done a comparison like this. >Though I do see that the word death is in single quotes there and >maybe that means something that I am missing... As you say, it is an interesting question. It is possibly something Tolkien got from ancient Greek religion, though I'm not sure that the idea of death as a "punishment" is primary in Christianity. The real contrast might be death as an enemy, and death as a gift. The primary Christian understanding of death is that it is an enemy -- "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" (I Cor 15:26), and speaks of Christ as the one who "might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil - and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear of death" (Heb 2:14-15). The idea that death is a gift is not present, or if present, is not emphasised. That sounds more like 19th-century English romantic poets, who were "half in love with easeful death". Christianity has its source in the idea that death is an enemy that has been overcome. As one Chrisdtian writer put it: "Neither the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, based on the opposition between spiritual and material, nor that of death as liberation, nor that of death as punishment, are in fact Christian doctrines. And their integration into the Christian worldview vitiated rather than clarified Christian theology and piety. They 'worked' as long as Christianity lived in a religious (i.e. death-centered) world. But they cease to work as soon as the world outgrows this old death-centered religion and becomes 'secular'. Yet the world has become secular not because it has become 'irreligious', 'materialistic', 'superficial', not because it has 'lost religion' -- as so many Christians still think -- but because the old explanations do not really explain." (from Alexander Schmemann, _The world as sacrament_). >As for Judaism, and whether or not other posters speak accurately >about it: I don't know- I know very, very little about Judaism. >(Though I would be glad to learn more). Yes, it was others who mentioned Judaism, but I very much doubt that death as "punishment" is part of Judaism either. In fact, in terms of the Genesis (which has been cited by others), one could say that the idea of "death as punishment" originated with the snake of Genesis 2. The snake was the first theologian - he questioned and argued about the words of God. "Did God really say you must not eat from any tree in the garden?" And the answer, of course, is no, God did not say that. That is an extensive exaggeration of what God did say. And the woman answers, correctly, that God said, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden". But then went on to exxagerate by adding, "and you must not touch it". An ogre God is always more spectacular than the true God. The "death as punishment" idea is likewise an exaggeration, sucumbing to the attractions of an ogre God. Because God did not say to the man "when you eat of it I will kill you", but rather "when you eat of it, you will die". But those who propagate the "death as punishment" idea twist the words, or at least suggest that they imply that God said "when you eat of it, I will kill you." >When I posed my question, I hoped for an answer like: "So-and-so in >_______book postulates that Tolkien, while working with the >information from a bunch of ancient musty documents, came across the >story of the blah blah people and he took elements from that and >re-worked them into the Elvish perception of Human mortality as told >in the Silmarillion." > >Alas, no simple answer like that is forthcoming. ;) And may never be, but the idea is interesting enough to be worth pursuing. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 4 Nov 2003 14:37:46 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20031103100735.29660.00001425@mb-m24.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1067956666 4486 128.214.205.14 (4 Nov 2003 14:37:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Nov 2003 14:37:46 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125470 Russ wrote: > Actually, that's not quite what Tolkien wrote. He said Mortality is the > natural state of Man but Death is the punishment for sin. I might be seen as a simpleton but could you or somebody else explain to me how one can be a mortal without death lurking at the end of the journey? From Oxford English dictionary online Mortality: 1. a. The condition of being mortal or subject to death; mortal nature or existence Mortal 1. a. A mortal person, one who is destined to die; a human being, in contrast with an immortal. ###### Lines: 22 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 04 Nov 2003 15:20:18 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m03) Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <20031104102018.14837.00004068@mb-m03.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125472 In article , Tamim writes: >Russ wrote: > >> Actually, that's not quite what Tolkien wrote. He said Mortality is the >> natural state of Man but Death is the punishment for sin. > >I might be seen as a simpleton but could you or somebody else explain to >me how one can be a mortal without death lurking at the end of the >journey? As I said in another post. Tolkien used the example of the Assumption of Mary from his Catholic beliefs. Or to use a different example, don't Muslims believe Muhammad was taken bodily up into heaven? Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 11:14:20 -0500 Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <20031104102018.14837.00004068@mb-m03.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1067962461 45051703 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <20031104102018.14837.00004068@mb-m03.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125474 Russ wrote: > > Or to use a different example, don't Muslims believe Muhammad was taken bodily > up into heaven? Only for a horseback ride. He was brought back to Earth again. He died normally, as humans do. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Membranous Gauss" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:23:13 +0200 Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: wblv-224-15.telkomadsl.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1067973606 5698 165.165.224.15 (4 Nov 2003 19:20:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Nov 2003 19:20:06 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed7!newsfeed.cwix.com!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125480 Steve Hayes wrote in message news:3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net... > On 3 Nov 2003 16:17:17 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: > > >hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net>... > >> On 1 Nov 2003 18:10:38 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: > >> > >> >For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing > >> >is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for > >> >sin. > >> > > >> >Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? > >> > >> From Christianity? > > [snip] > > It is possibly something Tolkien got from ancient Greek religion, though I'm > not sure that the idea of death as a "punishment" is primary in Christianity. > The real contrast might be death as an enemy, and death as a gift. > > The primary Christian understanding of death is that it is an enemy -- "the > last enemy to be destroyed is death" (I Cor 15:26), and speaks of Christ as > the one who "might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the > devil - and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear of > death" (Heb 2:14-15). .geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm Does it not also say in the New Testament: "The wages of sin is Death?" ###### From: Alexander Arnakis Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:53:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.156.215.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1067982821 141.156.215.20 (Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:53:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:53:41 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125484 On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 02:37:10 GMT, hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote: > >Christianity has its source in the idea that death is an enemy that has been >overcome. > >As one Chrisdtian writer put it: > >"Neither the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, based on the opposition >between spiritual and material, nor that of death as liberation, nor that of >death as punishment, are in fact Christian doctrines. And their integration >into the Christian worldview vitiated rather than clarified Christian theology >and piety. They 'worked' as long as Christianity lived in a religious (i.e. >death-centered) world. But they cease to work as soon as the world outgrows >this old death-centered religion and becomes 'secular'. Yet the world has >become secular not because it has become 'irreligious', 'materialistic', >'superficial', not because it has 'lost religion' -- as so many Christians >still think -- but because the old explanations do not really explain." > >(from Alexander Schmemann, _The world as sacrament_). > What Christianity did was redefine death from being an end to being a transition. Thus, death changed (in the Christian world view) from being an enemy to being a friend. ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 4 Nov 2003 21:55:07 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> Reply-To: taocow@alberni.net NNTP-Posting-Host: tandem.alberni.net (64.141.6.11) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1067982907 45782615 64.141.6.11 (16 [211612]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!tandem.alberni.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125486 On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:53:41 GMT, Alexander Arnakis wrote: > On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 02:37:10 GMT, hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) > wrote: >> >>Christianity has its source in the idea that death is an enemy that has been >>overcome. >> >>As one Chrisdtian writer put it: >> >>"Neither the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, based on the opposition >>between spiritual and material, nor that of death as liberation, nor that of >>death as punishment, are in fact Christian doctrines. And their integration >>into the Christian worldview vitiated rather than clarified Christian theology >>and piety. They 'worked' as long as Christianity lived in a religious (i.e. >>death-centered) world. But they cease to work as soon as the world outgrows >>this old death-centered religion and becomes 'secular'. Yet the world has >>become secular not because it has become 'irreligious', 'materialistic', >>'superficial', not because it has 'lost religion' -- as so many Christians >>still think -- but because the old explanations do not really explain." >> >>(from Alexander Schmemann, _The world as sacrament_). >> > What Christianity did was redefine death from being an end to being a > transition. Thus, death changed (in the Christian world view) from > being an enemy to being a friend. Christianity certainly didn't get that patent on that. Look at Hinduism, which is much older than Christianity. -- Aaron Clausen taocow@alberni.net ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:25:47 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c107.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125495 > Does it not also say in the New Testament: "The wages of sin is Death?" death of the soul not body ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:51:15 -0500 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1067989876 46217473 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!212.84.206.1.MISMATCH!bolzen.all.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125499 coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote: >>Does it not also say in the New Testament: "The wages of sin is Death?" > > > death of the soul > not body That contradicts eternal damnation. Bob Kolker ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 04:06:51 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 54 Message-ID: <3fa871c1.80086765@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.239.184.29 X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1068005661 22107 155.239.184.29 (5 Nov 2003 04:14:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 2003 04:14:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125505 On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:23:13 +0200, "Membranous Gauss" wrote: > >Steve Hayes wrote in message >news:3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net... >> On 3 Nov 2003 16:17:17 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: >> >> >hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message >news:<3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net>... >> >> On 1 Nov 2003 18:10:38 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: >> >> >> >> >For me, the single most fascinating thing in all of Tolkien's writing >> >> >is the idea of death as a natural part of man, not a punishment for >> >> >sin. >> >> > >> >> >Does anyone know where he might have gotten this idea? >> >> >> >> From Christianity? >> > >[snip] > >> >> It is possibly something Tolkien got from ancient Greek religion, though >I'm >> not sure that the idea of death as a "punishment" is primary in >Christianity. >> The real contrast might be death as an enemy, and death as a gift. >> >> The primary Christian understanding of death is that it is an enemy -- >"the >> last enemy to be destroyed is death" (I Cor 15:26), and speaks of Christ >as >> the one who "might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the >> devil - and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the >fear of >> death" (Heb 2:14-15). >.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm > >Does it not also say in the New Testament: "The wages of sin is Death?" So it does. But what is your point? Are you suggesting that wages are a punishment? -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: Alexander Arnakis Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 04:14:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.156.215.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1068005677 141.156.215.20 (Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:14:37 K ş) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:14:37 K ş Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125506 On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:51:15 -0500, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > >coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote: > >>>Does it not also say in the New Testament: "The wages of sin is Death?" >> >> death of the soul >> not body > >That contradicts eternal damnation. > Good point. Damnation implies torment, and the soul must be alive to be tormented. If the soul really died, sinners wouldn't have anything to worry about (except possibly missing out on all the fun the "saved" are presumably enjoying). ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 5 Nov 2003 07:42:58 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <20031104102018.14837.00004068@mb-m03.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1068018178 7060 128.214.205.14 (5 Nov 2003 07:42:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 2003 07:42:58 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125507 Russ wrote: > In article , Tamim > writes: >>Russ wrote: >> >>> Actually, that's not quite what Tolkien wrote. He said Mortality is the >>> natural state of Man but Death is the punishment for sin. >> >>I might be seen as a simpleton but could you or somebody else explain to >>me how one can be a mortal without death lurking at the end of the >>journey? > As I said in another post. Tolkien used the example of the Assumption of Mary > from his Catholic beliefs. I don't pretend to fully understand but this refers to everybody else being punished for their sins, doesn't it not? > Or to use a different example, don't Muslims believe Muhammad was taken bodily > up into heaven? Not to my knowledge. He died peacefully of old age like most of us. OTOH IIRC Jesus is believed to have had this kind of faith (According to Islam he wasn't crusified, Judas was). ###### From: "Membranous Gauss" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:43:00 +0200 Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <3fa871c1.80086765@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: wblv-230-30.telkomadsl.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1068025197 1146 165.165.230.30 (5 Nov 2003 09:39:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 2003 09:39:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!skynet.be!skynet.be!infeed.is.co.za!feeder.is.co.za!146.231.128.1.MISMATCH!hippo.ru.ac.za!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125510 > > > >Does it not also say in the New Testament: "The wages of sin is Death?" > > So it does. > > But what is your point? > > Are you suggesting that wages are a punishment? > With the amount I get paid, yes! But seriously, folks... the implication in that line is that sinners earn death, it is what they deserve for their actions. This is linked to the concept of punishment. A man who commits a crime is said to deserve to go to prison. Reward and punishment are two sides of the same coin. Do good and you deserve good things i.e.reward. Do bad (sin) and you deserve bad things i.e. punishment. So in that sense 'wages' is equated with the coin of reward / punishment, the line can be interpreted as saying: Commit sin and you deserve death (a punishment). ###### Lines: 36 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 05 Nov 2003 15:39:10 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m25) Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <20031105103910.07578.00001500@mb-m25.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125529 In article , Tamim writes: >Russ wrote: >> In article , Tamim > >> writes: > >>>Russ wrote: >>> >>>> Actually, that's not quite what Tolkien wrote. He said Mortality is the >>>> natural state of Man but Death is the punishment for sin. >>> >>>I might be seen as a simpleton but could you or somebody else explain to >>>me how one can be a mortal without death lurking at the end of the >>>journey? > >> As I said in another post. Tolkien used the example of the Assumption of >Mary >> from his Catholic beliefs. > >I don't pretend to fully understand but this refers to everybody else >being punished for their sins, doesn't it not? Yes, it's related to the Catholic doctrine of the Immacualte Conception which teaches Mary was born without the original sin of Adam and Eve. Assumption is found also in the Old Testament in which Elijah was bodily taken up into heaven. The Catholic Church doesn't take a doctrinal position on whether Mary physically died before the Assumption. IIRC, the Orthodox believe she did die before the Assumption (they call it the Dormition). I only mention all this because it informs the issues in Tolkien's mythology. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 18:08:50 -0500 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <20031105103910.07578.00001500@mb-m25.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1068073732 47089505 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <20031105103910.07578.00001500@mb-m25.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125543 Russ wrote: > > > Yes, it's related to the Catholic doctrine of the Immacualte Conception which > teaches Mary was born without the original sin of Adam and Eve. That means her parents must also have been without the taint of Original Sin. If you work backwards, you will conclude that Adam and Even did not have the taint either. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:51:02 -0500 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20031105103910.07578.00001500@mb-m25.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1068076297 6979 10.121.40.95 (5 Nov 2003 23:51:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:51:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125546 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote > > Russ wrote: > > > Yes, it's related to the Catholic doctrine of the Immacualte Conception which > > teaches Mary was born without the original sin of Adam and Eve. > > That means her parents must also have been without the taint of Original > Sin. If you work backwards, you will conclude that Adam and Even did not > have the taint either. No, it doesn't, sorry. According to Church doctrine her parents were tainted with original sin like everyone else but Mary was exempted from it at her conception through the grace and special privilege of God. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration@mindspring.com ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 04:48:29 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3fa9ce9b.169406177@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <3fa871c1.80086765@news.saix.net> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-2-p85.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1068094556 25875 155.239.169.85 (6 Nov 2003 04:55:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Nov 2003 04:55:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125561 On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:43:00 +0200, "Membranous Gauss" wrote: > >> > >> >Does it not also say in the New Testament: "The wages of sin is Death?" >> >> So it does. >> >> But what is your point? >> >> Are you suggesting that wages are a punishment? >> > >With the amount I get paid, yes! > >But seriously, folks... the implication in that line is that sinners earn >death, it is what they deserve for their actions. This is linked to the >concept of punishment. A man who commits a crime is said to deserve to go to >prison. Reward and punishment are two sides of the same coin. Do good and >you deserve good things i.e.reward. Do bad (sin) and you deserve bad things >i.e. punishment. So in that sense 'wages' is equated with the coin of reward >/ punishment, the line can be interpreted as saying: Commit sin and you >deserve death (a punishment). I'm not sure that I agree with your line of reasoning. Would you say that death is a punishment for getting cancer, or measles, or pneumonia? -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 02:24:53 -0500 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <3fa871c1.80086765@news.saix.net> <3fa9ce9b.169406177@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1068103501 47471444 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <3fa9ce9b.169406177@news.saix.net> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125570 Steve Hayes wrote: > I'm not sure that I agree with your line of reasoning. > > Would you say that death is a punishment for getting cancer, or measles, or > pneumonia? Distinguish between an effect and a moral consequence. Punishment is the consequence of wrong doing. That is a moral principle. Death the consequence of various and sundry physiological malfunctions. That is a cause-effect issue, not a moral issue. Unfortunately we tend to mix the two sorts of consequences in our thinking and language. Look at the word malfunction, for example. The mal in malfunction means -bad- functioning. But bad has a moral connotation even though we mean to say misfunction or dysfunction. That is not operating normally. Bob Kolker ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 6 Nov 2003 12:00:24 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20031105103910.07578.00001500@mb-m25.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1068120023 5221 128.214.205.14 (6 Nov 2003 12:00:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Nov 2003 12:00:24 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125576 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > Russ wrote: >> >> >> Yes, it's related to the Catholic doctrine of the Immacualte Conception which >> teaches Mary was born without the original sin of Adam and Eve. > That means her parents must also have been without the taint of Original > Sin. God can do whatever it/he/she wants. > If you work backwards, you will conclude that Adam and Even did not > have the taint either. > Bob Kolker -- ###### From: "Membranous Gauss" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 14:39:49 +0200 Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <3fa871c1.80086765@news.saix.net> <3fa9ce9b.169406177@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: wblv-235-161.telkomadsl.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1068122229 8246 165.165.235.161 (6 Nov 2003 12:37:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Nov 2003 12:37:09 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!newsfeed1.eu.ignite.net!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125580 Steve Hayes wrote in message news:3fa9ce9b.169406177@news.saix.net... > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:43:00 +0200, "Membranous Gauss" > wrote: > > > > >> > > >> >Does it not also say in the New Testament: "The wages of sin is Death?" > >> > >> So it does. > >> > >> But what is your point? > >> > >> Are you suggesting that wages are a punishment? > >> > > > >With the amount I get paid, yes! > > > >But seriously, folks... the implication in that line is that sinners earn > >death, it is what they deserve for their actions. This is linked to the > >concept of punishment. A man who commits a crime is said to deserve to go to > >prison. Reward and punishment are two sides of the same coin. Do good and > >you deserve good things i.e.reward. Do bad (sin) and you deserve bad things > >i.e. punishment. So in that sense 'wages' is equated with the coin of reward > >/ punishment, the line can be interpreted as saying: Commit sin and you > >deserve death (a punishment). > > I'm not sure that I agree with your line of reasoning. > > Would you say that death is a punishment for getting cancer, or measles, or > pneumonia? > No. But would you say that getting paid your wage is only a consequence of working, and not a reward for doing work? ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 15:23:48 -0500 Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <3fa871c1.80086765@news.saix.net> <3fa9ce9b.169406177@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1068150231 47183300 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125614 Membranous Gauss wrote: > No. But would you say that getting paid your wage is only a consequence of > working, and not a reward for doing work? The wage (in the moral sense) is just recompense for the labor performed. Bob Kolker ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 212.163.96.13 From: "Jetro de Château" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:22:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.20.31.4 X-Complaints-To: usenet@teleline.es X-Trace: telenews.teleline.es 1068157361 10.20.31.4 (Thu, 06 Nov 2003 23:22:41 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 23:22:41 MET Organization: Terra Networks Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!nsnmrro1-lo.nuria.telefonica-data.net!nsnmpen1-lo.nuria.telefonica-data.net!telenews.teleline.es!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125621 Alexander Arnakis wrote: > On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:51:15 -0500, "Robert J. Kolker" > wrote: >> >> coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote: >> >>>> Does it not also say in the New Testament: "The wages of sin is >>>> Death?" >>> >>> death of the soul >>> not body >> >> That contradicts eternal damnation. >> > Good point. Damnation implies torment, and the soul must be alive to > be tormented. If the soul really died, sinners wouldn't have anything > to worry about (except possibly missing out on all the fun the "saved" > are presumably enjoying). Well, the question of couse is what (or who) do you believe in. If you read the Bible you will not only find the earlier quote (in Romans 6:23) but also the following: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4) In fact Romans 6:23 goes on to say that "the free gift of God is eternal life". Sinners 'only' have to worry about the fact that they will indeed die and not live again. Jetro ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:08:30 -0500 Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1068160112 47836720 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125631 Jetro de Château wrote: > eternal life". Sinners 'only' have to worry about the fact that they > will indeed die and not live again. Sounds like a good deal to me. You live a satisfactory life, then lights out at the end. No risk of eternal boredom that way. Bob Kolker ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 6 Nov 2003 15:51:45 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 52 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.32.180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1068162705 25086 127.0.0.1 (6 Nov 2003 23:51:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 23:51:45 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125635 hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net>... [snip previous discussion of death as punishment in Christianity and death as Gift in Tolkien's universe, and where he might have gotten the idea to call death a gift] > As you say, it is an interesting question. > > It is possibly something Tolkien got from ancient Greek religion, though I'm > not sure that the idea of death as a "punishment" is primary in Christianity. > The real contrast might be death as an enemy, and death as a gift. > > The primary Christian understanding of death is that it is an enemy -- "the > last enemy to be destroyed is death" (I Cor 15:26), and speaks of Christ as > the one who "might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the > devil - and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear of > death" (Heb 2:14-15). > > The idea that death is a gift is not present, or if present, is not > emphasised. That sounds more like 19th-century English romantic poets, who > were "half in love with easeful death". Now I am curious about how many 19th cent. Eng. Romantic poets JRRT read. So some reason I can't think it was very many- yet there is a Romantic feel to his work... > [snip interesting quote from Alexander Schmemann, _The world as sacrament_.] I guess I must have gotten the idea of death as an enemy and death as a punishment mixed up in my head over the years. I will try to find this Schmemann book and read it at my next convenience. Also it looks like I need to re-read Genesis. [large snip] >An ogre God is always more spectacular than the true God. > > The "death as punishment" idea is likewise an exaggeration, sucumbing to the > attractions of an ogre God. > [snippage] Well, unfortunately, the Ogre God is the one I was raised with. I think a very great part of the attraction that Tolkien's writings have for me is the subtle presence of a more humane God that infuses his words/world. I don't know if you have read the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth lately, but I am reminded of the times during Finrod's and Andreth's "theological" discusssion when one, then the other felt they perceived a truth that would make their hearts leap up. Something similar happens in me when I read Tolkien. Thanks for an interesting conversation. ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:20:33 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c102.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125642 > Well, unfortunately, the Ogre God is the one I was raised with. I > think a very great part of the attraction that Tolkien's writings have > for me is the subtle presence of a more humane God that infuses his > words/world. I don't know if you have read the Athrabeth Finrod ah two aspects of one truth the book of job presents a god is not answerable to our notions and the gospels presents a god that is not amused by making us miserable > Andreth lately, but I am reminded of the times during Finrod's and > Andreth's "theological" discusssion when one, then the other felt they > perceived a truth that would make their hearts leap up. Something > similar happens in me when I read Tolkien. the analogy i make is we are the dog and god the master what dogs enjoys going to the vet? especially if the treatment is long and painful but while the vet and master inflicts pain on the dog it does so for a greater good for the dog itself and not out of sadistic glee the dog simply lacks the intelligence of the human to realize she is indeed receiving the most humane possible treatment so finrod points out that elves are faacing abnegation at the end of arda with no guarentee of (meaningful) existence beyond that the elves then have nothing more than the hope that eru did not simply create them simply to watch them suffer but that the elves do indeed have role beyond arda similarly in elder years jrrt decided the valar shouldve acted more forecefully to protect men for morgoth and their pulling back because they were afraid of harming men accidentally was a failure in faith that eru would somehow protect his creation even if they themselves could understand how ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 6 Nov 2003 16:58:39 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311061658.6218a651@posting.google.com> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020859.105f91d8@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311031407.76d545c9@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.32.180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1068166719 29447 127.0.0.1 (7 Nov 2003 00:58:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 00:58:39 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125647 stephen@nomail.com wrote in message news:... > zett wrote: > : Stan Brown wrote in message news:... > :> > :> We heard you the first time. > > : I don't know why this posted again, I didn't do anything (so far as I > : can tell) to make it post again. Sorry for the annoyance. My > : computer has been giving me problems lately. > > Did it post again? Your response and original post only showed up once > on my server, and they only show up once on google. > > Stephen Yeah my reply to coyotes did post twice. I still have no idea why... ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 6 Nov 2003 17:11:20 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311061711.508e5f52@posting.google.com> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <4bb40450.0311020905.26887113@posting.google.com> <3fa5be56.53296499@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.32.180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1068167480 30502 127.0.0.1 (7 Nov 2003 01:11:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 01:11:20 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125648 "Membranous Gauss" wrote in message news:... [interesting discussion regretfully snipped] > Tolkien's ideas about human mortality are not new and are IMO firmly rooted > in Judaeo-Christian beliefs, but the perception of mortality as a gift if > compared to another race who lacked mortality seems to me to be one of the > most beautiful concepts in Tolkien's work. Whether this comparison had been > discussed earlier by other writers, philosophers or theologians, I am not > sure, but in Tolkien it is magically presented. It is a concept that makes > Tolkien worthy of serious study in all three of the abovementioned fields: > literature, philosophy and theology. > > Gauss Well put. Wouldn't it be great if Tolkien *did* originate that kind of mortality/immortality comparison? But even if he didn't, the fact that it is there puts paid to the sort of sneering critics who say he did no more than write a big version of Boys Own Life. ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 07:05:48 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 86 Message-ID: <3fab1250.252287614@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.239.185.45 X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1068189202 14535 155.239.185.45 (7 Nov 2003 07:13:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 2003 07:13:22 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125668 On 6 Nov 2003 15:51:45 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: >hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net>... > >[snip previous discussion of death as punishment in Christianity and >death as Gift in Tolkien's universe, and where he might have gotten >the idea to call death a gift] > >> As you say, it is an interesting question. >> >> It is possibly something Tolkien got from ancient Greek religion, though I'm >> not sure that the idea of death as a "punishment" is primary in Christianity. >> The real contrast might be death as an enemy, and death as a gift. >> >> The primary Christian understanding of death is that it is an enemy -- "the >> last enemy to be destroyed is death" (I Cor 15:26), and speaks of Christ as >> the one who "might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the >> devil - and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear of >> death" (Heb 2:14-15). >> >> The idea that death is a gift is not present, or if present, is not >> emphasised. That sounds more like 19th-century English romantic poets, who >> were "half in love with easeful death". > >Now I am curious about how many 19th cent. Eng. Romantic poets JRRT >read. So some reason I can't think it was very many- yet there is a >Romantic feel to his work... As professor of English literature he was probably familiar with most of them. Even though they were not in his period of specialisation, he must have known something about them. >> [snip interesting quote from Alexander Schmemann, _The world as sacrament_.] > >I guess I must have gotten the idea of death as an enemy and death as >a punishment mixed up in my head over the years. I will try to find >this Schmemann book and read it at my next convenience. Also it looks >like I need to re-read Genesis. It can be useful to try to read the text without preconceived ideas. There can be some justification for preconceived ideas, and theological arguments based on other texts, by which one interprets this one. For example, on the basis of what is said in other texts, theologians identify the snake with Satan. But the text of Genesis does not make such an explicit identification. The snake is an animal, created by God. >[large snip] > >>An ogre God is always more spectacular than the true God. >> >> The "death as punishment" idea is likewise an exaggeration, sucumbing to the >> attractions of an ogre God. >> >[snippage] > >Well, unfortunately, the Ogre God is the one I was raised with. I >think a very great part of the attraction that Tolkien's writings have >for me is the subtle presence of a more humane God that infuses his >words/world. I don't know if you have read the Athrabeth Finrod ah >Andreth lately, but I am reminded of the times during Finrod's and >Andreth's "theological" discusssion when one, then the other felt they >perceived a truth that would make their hearts leap up. Something >similar happens in me when I read Tolkien. Tolkien (and C.S. Lewis) revived a number of premodern Christian ideas, which they exounded in their fiction. Both loved premoder literature and theology. Modernity made some profound changes to Westenr Christianity - the main influences that created modernity were the Renaissance, the Reformation and the Enlightenment. Tolkien's literary speciality went back behind this, and it shows in his own writing. Lewis too, though not to the same extent. Their friendship was based on a love of "northernness" - the old Norse sagas etc. And these are all premodern literature. > >Thanks for an interesting conversation. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 03:03:46 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125676 On 6 Nov 2003 15:51:45 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: >Now I am curious about how many 19th cent. Eng. Romantic poets JRRT >read. So some reason I can't think it was very many- yet there is a >Romantic feel to his work... Given JRRT's literary preferences, as elucidated by his biographer, Humphrey Carpenter, probably almost none. The only post-Chaucerian English of which there is a record of Tolkien reading is Spenser, Shakespeare, Milton, and 20th century science fiction/fantasy, and apparently he didn't like the Shakespeare or the Milton. the softrat Curmudgeon-at-Large mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- ###### From: "Hellekin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 13:32:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial81-135-11-10.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: titan.btinternet.com 1068211964 14846 81.135.11.10 (7 Nov 2003 13:32:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 13:32:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125682 "the softrat" wrote in message news:djkmqv0cau3bbblckb9mfoib8413auc5ln@4ax.com... > On 6 Nov 2003 15:51:45 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: > > >Now I am curious about how many 19th cent. Eng. Romantic poets JRRT > >read. So some reason I can't think it was very many- yet there is a > >Romantic feel to his work... > > Given JRRT's literary preferences, as elucidated by his biographer, > Humphrey Carpenter, probably almost none. The only post-Chaucerian > English of which there is a record of Tolkien reading is Spenser, > Shakespeare, Milton, and 20th century science fiction/fantasy, and > apparently he didn't like the Shakespeare or the Milton. I may be wandering OT here but: I think this fits in with what we know of other aspects of T's literary preferences. The c19th romantic poets were distant descendants of the French romantic literary tradition as exemplified by Chrétien de Troyes, Mallory, and so on. Tolkien, by contrast I think, preferred the Germanic epic tradition in English Literature. Much of the literature that emerged following the Norman Conquest owed a lot to French influences - courtly love, the exploration of the individual in personal battles between sin and temptation and so on. Shakespeare and Milton owe much to this tradition too. However, the earlier Anglo-Saxon literature -which cast vast sweeping epics, where x son of x son of x avenged the wrongs done against his people's and fought external (less internal) threats (represented by mythical beasts) and so on - was swamped by the Franco-Romanesque stuff. I think Tolkien looked more to the earlier stuff. Perhaps this accounts for the lack of romantic relationships in the book (which is often a criticism) - Arwen and Aragorn's relationship is confined to the Appendices - yet Tolkien cannot avoid entirely the later literary influences - the "quest" (a Franco-Romanesque speciality) is a pretty strong notion in the book for example. ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 7 Nov 2003 19:00:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0311071900.155a5a3a@posting.google.com> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.32.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1068260408 4916 127.0.0.1 (8 Nov 2003 03:00:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 03:00:08 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125765 the softrat wrote in message news:... > On 6 Nov 2003 15:51:45 -0800, yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) wrote: > > >Now I am curious about how many 19th cent. Eng. Romantic poets JRRT > >read. So some reason I can't think it was very many- yet there is a > >Romantic feel to his work... > > Given JRRT's literary preferences, as elucidated by his biographer, > Humphrey Carpenter, probably almost none. The only post-Chaucerian > English of which there is a record of Tolkien reading is Spenser, > Shakespeare, Milton, and 20th century science fiction/fantasy, and > apparently he didn't like the Shakespeare or the Milton. > [sig snipped] I understand that he did not like what Shakespeare did to the perception of Elves. I can't blame him. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> References: <20031103115756.11022.00001834@mb-m14.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:57:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.61.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net 1068400627 165.121.61.43 (Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:57:07 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:57:07 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!90edfc5a!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125998 mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) wrote: >In article , Stan Brown > writes: > >>In article <20031103100734.29660.00001424@mb-m24.aol.com> in >>rec.arts.books.tolkien, Russ wrote: >>>What Tolkien wrote was that Mortality was Man's natural state whereas Death >>was >>>the punishment for the Fall. Death is simply the post-Fall means by which >>>Mortality is completed. Tolkien wrote that 'assumption' would have been >>Man's >>>pre-Fall means by which Mortality was completed. >> >>Citation, please? >> >>It sounds like something that would be in /Letters/, but I've just >>grepped my copy and I don't find it there. > >Athrabeth, Note 4 I think: "In other words that 'assumption' was the natural >end of >each human life, though as far as we know it has been the end of the only >'unfallen' member of Mankind." (pg 317) Actually, no. It is from JRRT's commentary on the Athrabeth, pg 333: "[Finrod] therefore guesses that it is the fear of death that is the result of the disaster. It is feared because it now is combined with severance of /hroa/ and /fea/. But the /fear/ of Men must have been designed to leave Arda willingly or indeed by desire -- maybe after a longer time than the present average human life, but still in a time very short compared with Elvish lives. Then basing his argument on the axiom that severance of /hroa/ and /fea/ is unnatural and contrary to design, he comes (or if you like jumps) to the conclusion that the /fea/ of unfallen Man would have taken with it its /hroa/ into the new mode of existence (free from Time). In other words, that 'assumption' ws the natural end of each human life, though as far as we know it has been the end of the only 'unfallen' member of Mankind[6]." It is CT who provides the footnote: "[6]The reference is to the Virgin Mary." and so, technically, it is CT who states that this is a reference to Mary, but there is, of course, no reason to doubt this. There are many problems with this, not the least of which is that Mary's son, Jesus, for whose sake Mary was made 'unfallen', is also 'unfallen' and (in any veriant of Christianity which can be called "orthodox") is "wholly and truly Man". Thus, there are /two/ 'unfallen' members of Mankind. Another problem is that this makes Mary the only occupant of Heaven who retains her Earthly body -- everyone else, including her Son, has/will have a Resurrection body (walks through doors, ascends into the sky, etc). This seems odd. The final problem, of course, is that, if Mary must be 'unfallen' to make Jesus 'unfallen' then why, exactly, do Mary's parents not have to be 'unfallen'? That is, if God can make Mary 'unfallen' despite fallen parents, why can He not do this for Jesus and cut out the middlewoman? -- You are not being ignored! With rare exceptions: I download on Saturdays. I upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue ###### From: "W. Citoan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 18:38:19 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <20031103115756.11022.00001834@mb-m14.aol.com> <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126003 On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:57:07 GMT, Paul S Person wrote: > > There are many problems with this, not the least of which is that > Mary's son, Jesus, for whose sake Mary was made 'unfallen', is also > 'unfallen' and (in any veriant of Christianity which can be called > "orthodox") is "wholly and truly Man". Thus, there are /two/ > 'unfallen' members of Mankind. Er, that isn't a problem, that's simply a statement. Also, unfallen doesn't equal divine. > Another problem is that this makes Mary the only occupant of Heaven > who retains her Earthly body -- everyone else, including her Son, > has/will have a Resurrection body (walks through doors, ascends into > the sky, etc). This seems odd. This is wrong. The Old Testament contains at least one occurance of a prophet being raised unto Heaven without dying. Isiah, Ezekiel? I forget who... > The final problem, of course, is that, if Mary must be 'unfallen' to > make Jesus 'unfallen' then why, exactly, do Mary's parents not have > to be 'unfallen'? That is, if God can make Mary 'unfallen' despite > fallen parents, why can He not do this for Jesus and cut out the > middlewoman? Poor logic. That God chose to do something does not mean he had to do something. Christian theology doesn't state that Mary "must" be free from original sin. - W. Citoan -- For fools rush in where angels fear to tread. -- Alexander Pope ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 9 Nov 2003 18:39:22 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 20 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <20031103115756.11022.00001834@mb-m14.aol.com> <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: arctic.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.9 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!gumby.it.wmich.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126004 Paul S. Person wrote: : mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) wrote: : There are many problems with this, not the least of which is that : Mary's son, Jesus, for whose sake Mary was made 'unfallen', is also : 'unfallen' and (in any veriant of Christianity which can be called : "orthodox") is "wholly and truly Man". Thus, there are /two/ : 'unfallen' members of Mankind. Another problem is that this makes Mary : the only occupant of Heaven who retains her Earthly body -- everyone : else, including her Son, has/will have a Resurrection body (walks : through doors, ascends into the sky, etc). This seems odd. In Catholic teaching, Jesus did not leave a body behind. He was physical after the resurrection. The fact that he could enter locked buildings was not because he was incorporeal, but because he was God. He physically ascended into heaven. The difference between "assumption" and "ascension" is one is assumed, and one ascends. Stephen ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:26:51 -0500 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <20031103115756.11022.00001834@mb-m14.aol.com> <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1068416815 50624888 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126046 W. Citoan wrote: > > This is wrong. The Old Testament contains at least one occurance of a > prophet being raised unto Heaven without dying. Isiah, Ezekiel? I > forget who... Elijah, the Tishbeit. . Bob Kolker ###### Lines: 107 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 10 Nov 2003 18:13:16 GMT References: <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m29) Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <20031110131316.23307.00004271@mb-m29.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126126 In article <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person writes: >mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) wrote: > >>In article , Stan Brown >> writes: >> >>>In article <20031103100734.29660.00001424@mb-m24.aol.com> in >>>rec.arts.books.tolkien, Russ wrote: >>>>What Tolkien wrote was that Mortality was Man's natural state whereas >Death >>>was >>>>the punishment for the Fall. Death is simply the post-Fall means by which >>>>Mortality is completed. Tolkien wrote that 'assumption' would have been >>>Man's >>>>pre-Fall means by which Mortality was completed. >>> >>>Citation, please? >>> >>>It sounds like something that would be in /Letters/, but I've just >>>grepped my copy and I don't find it there. >> >>Athrabeth, Note 4 I think: "In other words that 'assumption' was the natural >>end of >>each human life, though as far as we know it has been the end of the only >>'unfallen' member of Mankind." (pg 317) > >Actually, no. It is from JRRT's commentary on the Athrabeth, pg 333: > >"[Finrod] therefore guesses that it is the fear of death that is the >result of the disaster. It is feared because it now is combined with >severance of /hroa/ and /fea/. But the /fear/ of Men must have been >designed to leave Arda willingly or indeed by desire -- maybe after a >longer time than the present average human life, but still in a time >very short compared with Elvish lives. Then basing his argument on the >axiom that severance of /hroa/ and /fea/ is unnatural and contrary to >design, he comes (or if you like jumps) to the conclusion that the >/fea/ of unfallen Man would have taken with it its /hroa/ into the new >mode of existence (free from Time). In other words, that 'assumption' >ws the natural end of each human life, though as far as we know it has >been the end of the only 'unfallen' member of Mankind[6]." > >It is CT who provides the footnote: > >"[6]The reference is to the Virgin Mary." > >and so, technically, it is CT who states that this is a reference to >Mary, but there is, of course, no reason to doubt this. > >There are many problems with this, not the least of which is that >Mary's son, Jesus, for whose sake Mary was made 'unfallen', is also >'unfallen' and (in any veriant of Christianity which can be called >"orthodox") is "wholly and truly Man". Thus, there are /two/ >'unfallen' members of Mankind. Perhaps, but the context was clear. Theologically, however, Jesus was not unfallen as Mary was. Jesus was God Incarnate and this the terms 'fallen' or 'unfallen' are unapplicable. > Another problem is that this makes Mary >the only occupant of Heaven who retains her Earthly body Incorrect. There are two other examples of assumption: Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) and Enoch (Gen 5:24 and Heb 11:15). Of course, that makes Tolkien's statement theologically incorrect, but we understand his point. > -- everyone >else, including her Son, Huh? According to the Gospel's He has his original body. The Tomb was *empty*, He had the wounds from the Cross. > has/will have a Resurrection body (walks >through doors, ascends into the sky, etc). This seems odd. The final >problem, of course, is that, if Mary must be 'unfallen' to make Jesus >'unfallen' That's not the reason. In Catholic belief, Mary's Immaculate Conception did not make Jesus unfallen. Jesus was God and terms like fallen or unfallen are inapplicable. Rather, she was conceived immaculately so that God Incarnate would be conceived and develop in a vessel without blemish. > then why, exactly, do Mary's parents not have to be >'unfallen'? That is, if God can make Mary 'unfallen' despite fallen >parents, why can He not do this for Jesus Jesus is God. So He would be 'doing' for Himself. In any event, that's not the doctrine. God could have decided to 'poof' His Incarnate form into existance, correct? However, for whatever reason God Incarnate came among us in the 'usual' way: conceived and born of a woman. > and cut out the middlewoman? As I noted above, it was God who decided there be a middlewoman. He could have snapped his proverbial fingers and simply appeared incarnate on Earth. Look, I dont want to debate Church doctrine. Whether you agree with it is not the point. However, the fact of Tolkien personal beliefs informs our understanding of his writings. Tolkien clearly understood the fate of Unfallen Man in his mythology in terms of his personal belief in the Assumption of Mary. Understanding that doesn't mean you have to accept the doctrine. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? From: Graham Lockwood Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> <20031110131316.23307.00004271@mb-m29.aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:12:15 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.7.176.92 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: fed1read07 1068491529 68.7.176.92 (Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:12:09 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:12:09 EST Organization: Cox Communications Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!p01!fed1read07.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126132 Russ said: > In article <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person {BIG snip} >> then why, exactly, do Mary's parents not have to be >> 'unfallen'? That is, if God can make Mary 'unfallen' despite fallen >> parents, why can He not do this for Jesus > > Jesus is God. So He would be 'doing' for Himself. In any event, that's not > the doctrine. God could have decided to 'poof' His Incarnate form into > existance, correct? However, for whatever reason God Incarnate came among us > in the 'usual' way: conceived and born of a woman. {snip} Well, I dunno ab out THAT. The "usual" way involves sexual intercourse... ||// // "The narrative ends here. || // |// // There is no reason to think ||// (/ // that any more was ever written. |// ||// The manuscript, which becomes // |// increasingly rapid towards the end, //| (/ peters out in a scrawl." //|| || -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // || ###### Lines: 27 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 10 Nov 2003 19:36:38 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m11) Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <20031110143638.11891.00002155@mb-m11.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126144 In article , Graham Lockwood writes: >Russ said: > >> In article <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person >{BIG snip} >>> then why, exactly, do Mary's parents not have to be >>> 'unfallen'? That is, if God can make Mary 'unfallen' despite fallen >>> parents, why can He not do this for Jesus >> >> Jesus is God. So He would be 'doing' for Himself. In any event, that's >not >> the doctrine. God could have decided to 'poof' His Incarnate form into >> existance, correct? However, for whatever reason God Incarnate came among >us >> in the 'usual' way: conceived and born of a woman. >{snip} > >Well, I dunno ab out THAT. The "usual" way involves sexual intercourse... Yeah, well, that's why I put the ' around usual. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: me@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: 11 Nov 2003 00:06:21 GMT Organization: Dept. of CS, Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Lines: 13 Sender: Jamie Andrews Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: temperance.csd.uwo.ca (129.100.17.19) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1068509181 50213023 129.100.17.19 (16 [193590]) X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.4.7-20030322 ("Suggestions") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!temperance.csd.uwo.CA!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126223 In rec.arts.books.tolkien the softrat wrote: > The only post-Chaucerian > English of which there is a record of Tolkien reading is Spenser, > Shakespeare, Milton, and 20th century science fiction/fantasy, and > apparently he didn't like the Shakespeare or the Milton. He professed an admiration of Auden's poetry, though it's hard (for me) to tell whether this was just out of politeness due to Auden's effusive praise of LOTR. --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:51:01 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20031103115756.11022.00001834@mb-m14.aol.com> <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126254 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, W. Citoan wrote: >This is wrong. The Old Testament contains at least one occurance of a >prophet being raised unto Heaven without dying. Isiah, Ezekiel? I >forget who... Elijah. Mendelssohn set it to some rather stirring music. One of the antediluvian patriarchs was also assumed into heaven. I think it was Enoch, but I wouldn't swear to it. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:54:52 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:126255 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Jamie Andrews wrote: >In rec.arts.books.tolkien the softrat wrote: >> The only post-Chaucerian >> English of which there is a record of Tolkien reading is Spenser, >> Shakespeare, Milton, and 20th century science fiction/fantasy, and >> apparently he didn't like the Shakespeare or the Milton. > > He professed an admiration of Auden's poetry, though it's >hard (for me) to tell whether this was just out of politeness >due to Auden's effusive praise of LOTR. Maybe. But Lewis was equally a booster, and Tolkien had no problem saying he didn't like the Narnia stories. So I think "I'll cut him some slack because he praises my work" doesn't really explain why Tolkien said he liked Auden's poetry. Surely the simplest and most likely explanation is that he said he liked it because he liked it? (follow-ups trimmed) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <8bgfrv0q74nnehav2u3v5256ib8os3sib0@4ax.com> References: <20031103115756.11022.00001834@mb-m14.aol.com> <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 95 Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:50:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.57.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net 1069008604 165.121.57.80 (Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:50:04 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:50:04 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!90edfc5a!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:127118 "W. Citoan" wrote: >On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:57:07 GMT, Paul S Person wrote: >> >> There are many problems with this, not the least of which is that >> Mary's son, Jesus, for whose sake Mary was made 'unfallen', is also >> 'unfallen' and (in any veriant of Christianity which can be called >> "orthodox") is "wholly and truly Man". Thus, there are /two/ >> 'unfallen' members of Mankind. > >Er, that isn't a problem, that's simply a statement. Also, unfallen >doesn't equal divine. Jesus was /both/ God and Man. As Man, all attributes of humanity apply to Him. However, He is explicitly said to be "without sin", that is, "unfallen". JRRT says "one" and there were in fact "two". This isn't a problem? >> Another problem is that this makes Mary the only occupant of Heaven >> who retains her Earthly body -- everyone else, including her Son, >> has/will have a Resurrection body (walks through doors, ascends into >> the sky, etc). This seems odd. > >This is wrong. The Old Testament contains at least one occurance of a >prophet being raised unto Heaven without dying. Isiah, Ezekiel? I >forget who... I regret my innumeracy. I was not thinking of Enoch and Elijah. It has been pointed out, correctly, that the issue here should be what JRRT believed and how it impacted his writing, not the validity of those beliefs. That said, how exactly is Mary an example of what JRRT thought death would be in the absence of sin? Mary is said to have been "assumed in body and soul to heavenly glory". This appears to be something God did, not Mary. Enoch and Elijah are clearly taken by God, rather than going under their own power. And they all took their bodies with them. But JRRT's picture of how death was intended to be is quite different. It is voluntary on the part of the human being involved -- something that Man does, out of his original nature, not that God does. By pairing the Assumption with the Immaculate Conception, JRRT appears to be giving us an example that does not, in fact, exemplify. The Assumption and what JRRT described appear to be two different things. >> The final problem, of course, is that, if Mary must be 'unfallen' to >> make Jesus 'unfallen' then why, exactly, do Mary's parents not have >> to be 'unfallen'? That is, if God can make Mary 'unfallen' despite >> fallen parents, why can He not do this for Jesus and cut out the >> middlewoman? > >Poor logic. That God chose to do something does not mean he had to do >something. Christian theology doesn't state that Mary "must" be free >from original sin. In fact, the /Encyclopaedia Britannica/ (2002 Expanded Edition DVD) indicates /precisely/ that it (Christian, or at least some parts of Christian, theology) does: "As the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary implied an integral purity of body and soul, so, in the opinion of many theologians, she was also free of other sins." Augustine, for example, asserted that Mary was sin-free: "We must except the holy Virgin Mary. Out of respect for the Lord, I do not intend to raise a single question on the subject of sin. After all, how do we know what abundance of grace was granted to her who had the merit to conceive and bring forth him who was unquestionably without sin?" Augustine, of course, also distinguished between Original Sin and actual sin and, eventually, the question was asked whether Mary was sin-free in the sense of never committing sins (actual sin) or also in the sense of not having Original Sin. Aquinas decided that she had been conceived with Original Sin, but that God suppressed and extinguished it. Duns Scotus opposed this with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception which, having been promulgated by Pope Pius IX in 1854 (/ex cathedra/, presumably) became official and obligatory dogma. So, to summarize: virgin conception of Jesus => Virgin Birth Virgin Birth => perpetual virginity (of Mary) perpetual virginity => never sinned never sinned => Immaculate Conception That last step isn't really a problem. Perpetual virginity is where most Protestants beg to differ on these issues. -- You are not being ignored! With rare exceptions: I download on Saturdays. I upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <7ahfrvckna6dvtbc8flkif4es0faluqq8q@4ax.com> References: <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> <20031110131316.23307.00004271@mb-m29.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 176 Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:50:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.57.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net 1069008608 165.121.57.80 (Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:50:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:50:08 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.esat.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!90edfc5a!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:127119 mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) wrote: >In article <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person > writes: >>There are many problems with this, not the least of which is that >>Mary's son, Jesus, for whose sake Mary was made 'unfallen', is also >>'unfallen' and (in any veriant of Christianity which can be called >>"orthodox") is "wholly and truly Man". Thus, there are /two/ >>'unfallen' members of Mankind. > >Perhaps, but the context was clear. Theologically, however, Jesus was not >unfallen as Mary was. Jesus was God Incarnate and this the terms 'fallen' or >'unfallen' are unapplicable. Per the /Encyclopaedia Britannica/ (2002 DVD Expanded Edition), the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD) declared (ellipsis in original): "We all unanimously teach . . . one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, perfect in deity and perfect in humanity . . . in two natures, without being mixed, transmuted, divided, or separated. The distinction between the natures is by no means done away with through the union, but rather the identity of each nature is preserved and concurs into one person and being." Qua human, then, the term "unfallen" applies to Jesus, being an attribute of His human nature. Your formulation reads as if it were slightly on the monophysite side of the line, but, of course, it may merely be a partial formulation designed to make a point and not reflect your full understanding of the Two Natures. >> Another problem is that this makes Mary >>the only occupant of Heaven who retains her Earthly body > >Incorrect. There are two other examples of assumption: Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) >and Enoch (Gen 5:24 and Heb 11:15). Of course, that makes Tolkien's statement >theologically incorrect, but we understand his point. Yes, I regret my innumeracy on this issue. However, it is not clear that they were "assumed", only that they were taken. I went into more detail in another post, but is being /taken by God/ really what JRRT thought death would have been without the fall? I thought is was more a matter of voluntary acceptance by the individual in his or her own time than a matter of God coming along and snatching the person away in His. >> -- everyone >>else, including her Son, > >Huh? According to the Gospel's He has his original body. The Tomb was *empty*, >He had the wounds from the Cross. He could also enter a locked room and ascend into Heaven. This is His "changed" body, not the original body. You are correct that no body remained in the tomb. That is why is said to have been "changed", and not "replaced". (The word "changed" is, of course, from Paul, who asserts that all who are alive when Jesus returns will also be changed.) >>'unfallen'? That is, if God can make Mary 'unfallen' despite fallen >>parents, why can He not do this for Jesus > >Jesus is God. So He would be 'doing' for Himself. In any event, that's not >the doctrine. God could have decided to 'poof' His Incarnate form into >existance, correct? However, for whatever reason God Incarnate came among us >in the 'usual' way: conceived and born of a woman. A short quotation from the /EB/: 'The final dogmatic formulation of the Trinitarian doctrine in the so-called Athanasian Creed (c. 500), una substantia -- tres personae ("one substance -- three persons"), reached back to the formulation of Tertullian.' Your formulation here, taken by itself, appears to fail to distinguish the three persons properly. The problem is not that is it wrong -- Jesus was God and Man -- but that it ignores the distinctions in the doctrine of the Trinity. No doubt it is only a partial statement, intended to support your point. As to God's ability to "poof" Himself into existence -- careful consideration of the Garden story suggests that this would work so far as Jesus divine nature was concerned, but not His human nature. And it is clear from the /EB/ that being born of a woman was considered essential theologically to ensure that Jesus was human: 'Probably the earliest allusion to Mary in Christian literature is the phrase "born of woman" in Galatians 4:4, which was written before any of the Gospels. As parallels such as Job 14:1 and Matthew 11:11 suggest, the phrase is a Hebraic way of speaking about the essential humanity of a person. When applied to Jesus, therefore, "born of woman" was intended to assert that he was a real man, in opposition to the attempt -- later seen in various systems of Gnosticism, a 2nd-century dualistic religion -- to deny that he had had a completely human life; he was said by some Gnostics to have passed through the body of Mary as light passes through a window.' and 'Some scholars have even maintained that the primary connotation of the phrase "born of the Virgin Mary" in the Apostles' Creed was this same insistence by the church upon the authentic manhood of Jesus.' >> and cut out the middlewoman? > >As I noted above, it was God who decided there be a middlewoman. He could have >snapped his proverbial fingers and simply appeared incarnate on Earth. See above. There is good reason to suspect otherwise. I can understand this posing a problem, since it appears to say that there are things God cannot do. But the God of the Bible is not the God of the Greek philosophers. His behavior is quite different from what the Greek philosophers would expect. To return to JRRT, we can ask a similar question of Eru: in the Song of the Ainur, Eru tolerates Melkor's discord, prevailing by introducing new themes and ending up victorious. Is there some reason for this? Would not Eru have been happier just blasting Melkor out of existence (Melkor, judging from JRRT's description somewhere in HOME, would be happier if this happened) and having the Song as originally envisioned? There are several possible answers: 1) Eru is either incapable of or is prevented by some external force from destroying Melkor; 2) Eru chooses not to do so as a matter of ethics and policy (eg, Eru chooses to accept the consequences of allowing free will, no matter what); 3) Eru is incompetent (he would destroy Melkor if he could figure out how). If you don't like 1) or 3), you are left with 2) -- which can be restated as 2') Eru, as a result of his policy of accepting free will regardless of consequences, is /compelled/ to endure the suffering caused to his children by Melkor So, either Eru is under some form of compulsion (1) and 2)) or Eru is incompetent (3)). So, the concept of an all-powerful deity being compelled by His own choices and ethics and so unable to follow some courses of action appears to be intrinsic in JRRT's mythology. The Flood in Genesis says much the same thing about God. Indeed, there are many places in the Bible where God is said to be steadfast and reliable; a Greek (popular, not philosophical) deity had no such constraints. >Look, I dont want to debate Church doctrine. Whether you agree with it is not >the point. However, the fact of Tolkien personal beliefs informs our >understanding of his writings. Tolkien clearly understood the fate of Unfallen >Man in his mythology in terms of his personal belief in the Assumption of Mary. > Understanding that doesn't mean you have to accept the doctrine. And, as noted above, the Assumption appears to be a very poor match to how JRRT describes death being for unfallen Man. To recap: for JRRT, it is something Man does; but the Assumption is something God does. Or, to turn it around, it gives a completely different image of JRRT's idea of what death would be like for unfallen Man than what I thought I had understood from his writings. Either way, it is surprising. -- You are not being ignored! With rare exceptions: I download on Saturdays. I upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue ###### From: "W. Citoan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 01:43:09 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <20031103115756.11022.00001834@mb-m14.aol.com> <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> <8bgfrv0q74nnehav2u3v5256ib8os3sib0@4ax.com> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 117 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:127173 On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:50:04 GMT, Paul S Person wrote: > "W. Citoan" wrote: > > >On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:57:07 GMT, Paul S Person wrote: > > > > > > There are many problems with this, not the least of which is that > > > Mary's son, Jesus, for whose sake Mary was made 'unfallen', is > > > also 'unfallen' and (in any veriant of Christianity which can be > > > called "orthodox") is "wholly and truly Man". Thus, there are > > > /two/ 'unfallen' members of Mankind. > > > > Er, that isn't a problem, that's simply a statement. Also, unfallen > > doesn't equal divine. > > Jesus was /both/ God and Man. As Man, all attributes of humanity apply > to Him. However, He is explicitly said to be "without sin", that is, > "unfallen". > > JRRT says "one" and there were in fact "two". > > This isn't a problem? Sorry, when you said it was a problem, I thought you were speaking in reference to theology and not a statement by Tolkien. > > > Another problem is that this makes Mary the only occupant of > > > Heaven who retains her Earthly body -- everyone else, including > > > her Son, has/will have a Resurrection body (walks through doors, > > > ascends into the sky, etc). This seems odd. > > > > This is wrong. The Old Testament contains at least one occurance of > > a prophet being raised unto Heaven without dying. Isiah, Ezekiel? > > I forget who... > > I regret my innumeracy. I was not thinking of Enoch and Elijah. > > It has been pointed out, correctly, that the issue here should be what > JRRT believed and how it impacted his writing, not the validity of > those beliefs. That said, how exactly is Mary an example of what JRRT > thought death would be in the absence of sin? Mary is said to have > been "assumed in body and soul to heavenly glory". This appears to be > something God did, not Mary. Enoch and Elijah are clearly taken by > God, rather than going under their own power. And they all took their > bodies with them. > > But JRRT's picture of how death was intended to be is quite different. > It is voluntary on the part of the human being involved -- something > that Man does, out of his original nature, not that God does. By > pairing the Assumption with the Immaculate Conception, JRRT appears to > be giving us an example that does not, in fact, exemplify. The > Assumption and what JRRT described appear to be two different things. Having not read Tolkien in depth on this topic, I cannot really argue what Tolkien meant or didn't mean. > > > The final problem, of course, is that, if Mary must be 'unfallen' > > > to make Jesus 'unfallen' then why, exactly, do Mary's parents not > > > have to be 'unfallen'? That is, if God can make Mary 'unfallen' > > > despite fallen parents, why can He not do this for Jesus and cut > > > out the middlewoman? > > > > Poor logic. That God chose to do something does not mean he had to > > do something. Christian theology doesn't state that Mary "must" be > > free from original sin. > > In fact, the /Encyclopaedia Britannica/ (2002 Expanded Edition DVD) > indicates /precisely/ that it (Christian, or at least some parts of > Christian, theology) does: > > "As the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary implied an > integral purity of body and soul, so, in the opinion of many > theologians, she was also free of other sins." > > Augustine, for example, asserted that Mary was sin-free: > > "We must except the holy Virgin Mary. Out of respect for the Lord, I > do not intend to raise a single question on the subject of sin. After > all, how do we know what abundance of grace was granted to her who had > the merit to conceive and bring forth him who was unquestionably > without sin?" > > Augustine, of course, also distinguished between Original Sin and > actual sin and, eventually, the question was asked whether Mary was > sin-free in the sense of never committing sins (actual sin) or also in > the sense of not having Original Sin. Aquinas decided that she had > been conceived with Original Sin, but that God suppressed and > extinguished it. Duns Scotus opposed this with the doctrine of the > Immaculate Conception which, having been promulgated by Pope Pius IX > in 1854 (/ex cathedra/, presumably) became official and obligatory > dogma. > > So, to summarize: > virgin conception of Jesus => Virgin Birth > Virgin Birth => perpetual virginity (of Mary) > perpetual virginity => never sinned > never sinned => Immaculate Conception > > That last step isn't really a problem. Perpetual virginity is where > most Protestants beg to differ on these issues. While this is a nice summarization, I think you misread my post. I was not stating that Mary wasn't free from original sin. I was countering your "if Mary must be 'unfallen' to make Jesus 'unfallen'" statement. Mary did not *have to be* free from Original Sin. God *chose* to make Mary free from Original Sin. Your summarization doesn't show that God *had* to make Mary free from Original Sin. If he hadn't, the doctrine of Immaculate Conception would need to be revised, but the existence of that doctrine doesn't mean that God *had* to work in that manner. It is simply an explanation of what he *chose* to do. - W. Citoan -- > Ok, I see you know what you're doing :-) Either that or I've gotten pretty good at faking it. ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 02:59:30 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3fb98962.31211142@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <3fa871c1.80086765@news.saix.net> <3fa9ce9b.169406177@news.saix.net> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-1-p364.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1069211281 16590 155.239.185.108 (19 Nov 2003 03:08:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2003 03:08:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:127489 On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 02:24:53 -0500, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >Steve Hayes wrote: >> I'm not sure that I agree with your line of reasoning. >> >> Would you say that death is a punishment for getting cancer, or measles, or >> pneumonia? > >Distinguish between an effect and a moral consequence. Punishment is the >consequence of wrong doing. That is a moral principle. Death the >consequence of various and sundry physiological malfunctions. That is a >cause-effect issue, not a moral issue. > >Unfortunately we tend to mix the two sorts of consequences in our >thinking and language. Look at the word malfunction, for example. The >mal in malfunction means -bad- functioning. But bad has a moral >connotation even though we mean to say misfunction or dysfunction. That >is not operating normally. Punishment has legal connotations, however. Consequences are not necessarily forensic. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 02:59:31 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3fb989d3.31323340@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-1-p364.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1069211282 16590 155.239.185.108 (19 Nov 2003 03:08:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2003 03:08:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:127490 On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:54:52 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: >In article in >rec.arts.books.tolkien, Jamie Andrews wrote: >>In rec.arts.books.tolkien the softrat wrote: >>> The only post-Chaucerian >>> English of which there is a record of Tolkien reading is Spenser, >>> Shakespeare, Milton, and 20th century science fiction/fantasy, and >>> apparently he didn't like the Shakespeare or the Milton. >> >> He professed an admiration of Auden's poetry, though it's >>hard (for me) to tell whether this was just out of politeness >>due to Auden's effusive praise of LOTR. > >Maybe. But Lewis was equally a booster, and Tolkien had no problem >saying he didn't like the Narnia stories. So I think "I'll cut him >some slack because he praises my work" doesn't really explain why >Tolkien said he liked Auden's poetry. > >Surely the simplest and most likely explanation is that he said he >liked it because he liked it? I'm not sure what "booster" means in this context - or was it a typo for "boaster"? "Booster" sounds like something from rocket science! -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:25:34 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> <3fb989d3.31323340@news.saix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:127496 In article <3fb989d3.31323340@news.saix.net> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steve Hayes wrote: >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:54:52 -0500, Stan Brown >wrote: >>Maybe. But Lewis was equally a booster, > >I'm not sure what "booster" means in this context - or was it a typo for >"boaster"? > >"Booster" sounds like something from rocket science! See definition 1b at . -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:25:55 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> <3fb989d3.31323340@news.saix.net> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 7 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c123.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:127519 > I'm not sure what "booster" means in this context - or was it a typo for > "boaster"? > > "Booster" sounds like something from rocket science! a booster is an enthusiastic promoter a cheerleader ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 17:25:06 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3fbe40b9.2056093@news.saix.net> References: <4bb40450.0311011810.891a6b0@posting.google.com> <3fa5e149.62244597@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311031617.583aac7a@posting.google.com> <3fa70cc3.138922620@news.saix.net> <4bb40450.0311061551.2e32ac98@posting.google.com> <3fb989d3.31323340@news.saix.net> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.239.184.156 X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1069436029 26537 155.239.184.156 (21 Nov 2003 17:33:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 2003 17:33:49 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:127845 On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:25:34 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: >In article <3fb989d3.31323340@news.saix.net> in >rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steve Hayes wrote: >>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:54:52 -0500, Stan Brown >>wrote: >>>Maybe. But Lewis was equally a booster, >> >>I'm not sure what "booster" means in this context - or was it a typo for >>"boaster"? >> >>"Booster" sounds like something from rocket science! > >See definition 1b at >. I'll have a look next time I'm on line, if I can remember the addres. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death as Gift- Origin? Message-ID: <18r1sv0oqjriaanltqgi32pjsgpa6pnjh0@4ax.com> References: <20031103115756.11022.00001834@mb-m14.aol.com> <5tvsqvg1576urm7oomu55gejind2atb59n@4ax.com> <8bgfrv0q74nnehav2u3v5256ib8os3sib0@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:23:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.61.136 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1069608206 165.121.61.136 (Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:23:26 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:23:26 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!53e16bff!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:128025 "W. Citoan" wrote: >Sorry, when you said it was a problem, I thought you were speaking in >reference to theology and not a statement by Tolkien. Oh, well, that's all right then. -- You are not being ignored! With rare exceptions: I download on Saturdays. I upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue