Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:13:48 +0100 From: Mike Andrews User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, de, sv, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Did Elves have pointed ears? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> Organization: Arcor NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Oct 2003 08:15:33 MET NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.144.94.219 X-Trace: DXC=@K5C:fVPcjM5VQnf?UOZgEQ5U85hF6f;DjW\KbG]kaMHc5SKZBaNiTBJEnCJCZ`TfE3`4OFVY^6^JGA0^RSf@bED>h0`_6FHo5Dn4HjUacX8FI X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-online.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsread.arcor-online.net!news.arcor.de!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124920 yes, i know that this is discussed in the faq. but i found an interesting sectence in "of tuor and his coming to gondolin": at the first gate elemmakil looks at tuor and says: "[...] a mortal man -- for by his eyes i perceive his kin." ok, i admit that "by his ears i perceive his kin." sounds somewhat funny but shoudn't elemmakil have noticed that detail? this scene also raises the question: did elves have beards? after 37 days from nevrast to the encircling mountains the difference should be obvious. does anyone know any references to elves and beards? ###### Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:20:28 +0100 From: Mike Andrews User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, de, sv, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves have pointed ears? References: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> In-Reply-To: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 5 Message-ID: <3f9b7624$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> Organization: Arcor NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Oct 2003 08:22:13 MET NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.144.94.219 X-Trace: DXC=`_ATQIT=^KE5VQnf?UOZgEQ5U85hF6f;DjW\KbG]kaMHc5SKZBaNiTBJEnCJCZ`TfE3`4OFVY^6^JGA0^RSf@bED>h0`_6FHo5Dn4HjUacX8FI X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-online.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsread.arcor-online.net!news.arcor.de!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124921 > obvious. does anyone know any references to elves and beards? > Sorry. Just found them in the nfaq. ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves have pointed ears? Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 07:01:58 -0500 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.com (24.62.143.251) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1067169728 34410279 24.62.143.251 (16 [76471]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!h00c0a88ba22d.ne.client2.attbi.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124927 Mike Andrews wrote: > this scene also raises the question: did elves have beards? after 37 > days from nevrast to the encircling mountains the difference should be > obvious. does anyone know any references to elves and beards? Cirdan has a long one. But he is very old. Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves have pointed ears? Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:39:22 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b150.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1067183121 17766 212.205.219.150 (26 Oct 2003 15:45:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 15:45:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124933 "Mike Andrews" wrote in message news:3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net... > yes, i know that this is discussed in the faq. > > but i found an interesting sectence in "of tuor and his coming to > gondolin": at the first gate elemmakil looks at tuor and says: > > "[...] a mortal man -- for by his eyes i perceive his kin." > > ok, i admit that "by his ears i perceive his kin." sounds somewhat funny > but shoudn't elemmakil have noticed that detail? Yeah, this passage has been one of my points in arguing that elves didn't have noticeably pointy ears. It's the eyes that are always remarked by Tolkien's characters when they perceive whether another is mankind or elf... (likewise Morwen Eledhwen was supposedly given that name because of the light in her *eyes*, not the shape of her ears -- and Aragorn notices the "elven-light" in Arwen's eyes when he sees her, rather than the elven-points in her ears :-) > this scene also raises the question: did elves have beards? Usually after the "third" circle of their lives, whatever that means. Exception being Mahtan, who was early in his second and he had a beard already... -Aris ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> Subject: Re: Did Elves have pointed ears? Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 04:42:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1067229723 65.26.218.54 (Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:42:03 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:42:03 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124951 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:bngq6g$hb6$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr... > > "Mike Andrews" wrote in message > news:3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net... > > this scene also raises the question: did elves have beards? > > Usually after the "third" circle of their lives, whatever that means. > Exception being Mahtan, who was early in his second and he > had a beard already... In his painting "Taur-nu-fuin" (seen more often as the cover illustration for TT under the title "Fangorn"), Tolkien appears to have represented Beleg with a beard. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: LITTLE LOCUS Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves have pointed ears? Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:25:29 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Data Espagna Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3F9CE48A.F1A441@worldconquer.org> References: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 87.red-217-127-202.pooles.rima-tde.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net 1067246694 184 217.127.202.87 (27 Oct 2003 09:24:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:24:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!nsnmrro1-lo.nuria.telefonica-data.net!nsnmrro2-lo.nuria.telefonica-data.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124958 Aris Katsaris wrote: > > "Mike Andrews" wrote in message > news:3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net... > > yes, i know that this is discussed in the faq. > > > > but i found an interesting sectence in "of tuor and his coming to > > gondolin": at the first gate elemmakil looks at tuor and says: > > > > "[...] a mortal man -- for by his eyes i perceive his kin." > > > > ok, i admit that "by his ears i perceive his kin." sounds somewhat funny > > but shoudn't elemmakil have noticed that detail? > > Yeah, this passage has been one of my points in arguing that elves > didn't have noticeably pointy ears. It's the eyes that are always > remarked by Tolkien's characters when they perceive whether > another is mankind or elf... Just a point to remember, to play Devil's advocate against BOTH sides on the pointy-ear question :) is that the "by his eyes I perceive his kin" is largely... irrelevant. Middle-earthers oftentimes usualy used HOODS or HELMETS - and even when they removed the hearwear, they usually (but for male Hobbits) had LONG HAIR. ;) The above line could that the ears (were rounded or pointy) were not vissible under the hair and/or headgear, so he had to look at the eyes. Be the ears as they were. ^_^ On a lesser author, that would be "threading too small" and be worth nothing. On Tolkien, with a well-known pechant for, uh, "small miscellanea showing up as reference in the text" ;) it COULD be worth noting instead. L.L. -- "We must. We can. We will". (Christopher Reeve) ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves have pointed ears? Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:36:59 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> <3F9CE48A.F1A441@worldconquer.org> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c120.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125000 > Just a point to remember, to play Devil's advocate against BOTH sides on > the pointy-ear question :) is that the "by his eyes I perceive his kin" > is largely... irrelevant. > On a lesser author, that would be "threading too small" and be worth > nothing. On Tolkien, with a well-known pechant for, uh, "small > miscellanea showing up as reference in the text" ;) it COULD be worth > noting instead. actually eyes were important to jrrt in and of themselves when hobbits describe elves they note they look mostly like young adult humans except there is a depth to their eyes humans do not have the only place i can rememebr ear shape even hinted at is the discussion of namarie in the road goes ever on ###### From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves have pointed ears? Message-ID: References: <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> Reply-To: mhaines@io.nanc.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 19 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:50:38 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.111.21 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1067323839 148.63.111.21 (Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:50:39 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:50:39 CST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:125041 In article <3f9b7495$0$19112$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>, mika@pcpostal.com says... > > this scene also raises the question: did elves have beards? after 37 > days from nevrast to the encircling mountains the difference should be > obvious. does anyone know any references to elves and beards? Cirdan the Shipwright had a beard. Michelle Flutist -- In my heart. By my side. Never apart. AP with Pride! Katrina Marie (10/19/96) Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99) Gareth Xander (07/17/00) Zachary Mitchell Theona Alexis (06/03/03) (01/12/94, fostered 09/05/01 - 07/23/03)