From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 2 Oct 2003 16:09:40 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 26 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!news.cc.uic.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123459 In "The Hobbit" we are told that "... Goblins are cruel, wicked and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones... ...It is not unlikely that they invented the machines that have since troublewd the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and in those wild parts they had not advanced so far." but nowhere in the mythology that I am aware of do we ever see Orcs making clever things, or to even be in possession of clever things that they clearly made. Given that towards the end Tolkien considered the possibility that Orcs were nothing but animals, I do not think that his final vision of the Orcs included the idea that they were the inventors of clever machines. What do others think? When you read LotR, did you imagine the Orcs as clever engineers? Did you think that Shagrat, Ugluk, Grishnahk and the rest of the gang were mechanically inclined? Stephen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs References: Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: taocow@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:17:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!sjc72.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123453 On 2 Oct 2003 16:09:40 GMT, stephen@nomail.com wrote: > In "The Hobbit" we are told that > > "... Goblins are cruel, wicked and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful > things, but they make many clever ones... ...It is not unlikely that > they invented the machines that have since troublewd the world, > especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people > at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, > and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; > but in those days and in those wild parts they had not advanced > so far." > > but nowhere in the mythology that I am aware of do we ever > see Orcs making clever things, or to even be in possession > of clever things that they clearly made. > > Given that towards the end Tolkien considered the possibility > that Orcs were nothing but animals, I do not think that his > final vision of the Orcs included the idea that they were > the inventors of clever machines. > > What do others think? When you read LotR, did you > imagine the Orcs as clever engineers? Did you think > that Shagrat, Ugluk, Grishnahk and the rest of the gang > were mechanically inclined? Actually, I do think Orcs were clever engineers. I think they could mine out mountains, forge steel, make armor, and probably even produce food of some kind. We even know that at least a few were literate, and that doesn't sound like an animal to me. -- Aaron Clausen taocow@alberni.net ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 2 Oct 2003 16:54:24 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 38 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!canoe.uoregon.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123457 AC wrote: : On 2 Oct 2003 16:09:40 GMT, : stephen@nomail.com wrote: :> In "The Hobbit" we are told that :> :> "... Goblins are cruel, wicked and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful :> things, but they make many clever ones... ...It is not unlikely that :> they invented the machines that have since troublewd the world, :> especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people :> at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, :> and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; :> but in those days and in those wild parts they had not advanced :> so far." :> :> but nowhere in the mythology that I am aware of do we ever :> see Orcs making clever things, or to even be in possession :> of clever things that they clearly made. :> :> Given that towards the end Tolkien considered the possibility :> that Orcs were nothing but animals, I do not think that his :> final vision of the Orcs included the idea that they were :> the inventors of clever machines. :> :> What do others think? When you read LotR, did you :> imagine the Orcs as clever engineers? Did you think :> that Shagrat, Ugluk, Grishnahk and the rest of the gang :> were mechanically inclined? : Actually, I do think Orcs were clever engineers. I think they could mine : out mountains, forge steel, make armor, and probably even produce food of : some kind. We even know that at least a few were literate, and that doesn't : sound like an animal to me. What about Trolls? Did they forge steel, make armor and produce food? Stephen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs References: Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: taocow@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 19 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:49:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123474 On 2 Oct 2003 16:54:24 GMT, stephen@nomail.com wrote: > AC wrote: >: Actually, I do think Orcs were clever engineers. I think they could mine >: out mountains, forge steel, make armor, and probably even produce food of >: some kind. We even know that at least a few were literate, and that doesn't >: sound like an animal to me. > > > What about Trolls? Did they forge steel, make armor and produce > food? I actually doubt it. They were a pretty plodding, slow-witted bunch in The Hobbit, and they become even less able in LotR. -- Aaron Clausen taocow@alberni.net ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:47:00 -0400 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 85 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1065124058 9442 10.121.40.95 (2 Oct 2003 19:47:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:47:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!surfnet.nl!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123482 wrote > AC wrote: > : On 2 Oct 2003 16:09:40 GMT, > : stephen@nomail.com wrote: (snip) > :> What do others think? When you read LotR, did you > :> imagine the Orcs as clever engineers? Did you think > :> that Shagrat, Ugluk, Grishnahk and the rest of the gang > :> were mechanically inclined? > > : Actually, I do think Orcs were clever engineers. I think they could mine > : out mountains, forge steel, make armor, and probably even produce food of > : some kind. We even know that at least a few were literate, and that doesn't > : sound like an animal to me. I may be overlooking something obvious, but what evidence do we have for literate orcs? We know that some orcs are capable of recognizing writing as being writing - they clearly know how to deface it - but an illiterate human can do that as well, and I imagine an ape could be trained to do so in time. We also know that orcs can recognize symbols, such as an S-rune or white hand for Saruman or the lidless eye for Sauron, but again, a pigeon can learn which button to push to obtain food. Is there an example from either a published text or elsewhere of an orc actually reading or writing text? I do think it's plain from TH that orcs were very clever craftsmen and sneaky devils at war even without a superior organizing intelligence leading them - they could make hidden doors that fooled dwarves, for instance, craft shoes that made the wearers very quiet, and and plan military strategy well enough to come within a hair of defeating a coalition of men, elves and dwarves together, all without a Nazgul, Balrog, or fallen Istar to offer advice. I also expect they had a decent agricultural technology, but probably one that ruined land in short order in order to get high short-term yields (think Mesopotamia). It's just that the uruks we met in the stories were above such petty snaga concerns - just as the elves plainly had some sort of advanced food production technology to provide the bounty for all that feasting, but never bothered discussing it or mentioning it in their legends. How the orcs of the Misty Mountains fed themselves I can't imagine. And while orc medicine was crude compared to the traditions handed down among the more enlightened among the Free Peoples of Middle-earth, it was nonetheless an effective technology, much more so than I'd imagine troll medicine being ("Give 'im anuvver knock on 'is noggin, Bill, an' see if 'at don't wake 'im up!") Where orcs' talents fell drastically short was in what hackers call "social engineering". ;-) > What about Trolls? Did they forge steel, make armor and produce > food? Not at anything like the level of orcs, but it seems they did. IIRC, at least two characters (Gandalf and Elrond? I don't have my books handy) commented on the swords "liberated" from the trolls cave that the trolls plainly hadn't made them, which would seem to imply that is they had been cruder, nastier blades they might have *been* troll-make. After all, if you found a hunter's rifle in a lion's den you probably wouldn't bother musing aloud, "Well, I don't think the lion made this," and even if you did, out of irony, it would be highly unlikely that the next person you asked about the provenance of the gun would have the same reaction. As for producing food, they do seem to prefer stealing it to making it, but that seems more like a matter of character. They have cookware and considerable knowledge of how to use it. One could say that's just Bilbo's embellishment, except that it is central to the means of their demise - they must have been arguing about *something* until the sun came up. It's hard to imagine a species developing the means to prepare cooked food in a variety of ways without ever developing the means to produce it. So I think we have to assume that trolls living in the wild had some ability to produce and prepare their own food as well as the ability to manufacture metal artifacts of some complexity (albeit radically cruder than elven or even orcish goods of the same type). -- Bruce Tucker disintegration@mindspring.com ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs References: Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: taocow@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 20:16:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sjc72.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123475 On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:47:00 -0400, Bruce Tucker wrote: > > I may be overlooking something obvious, but what evidence do we have for > literate orcs? We know that some orcs are capable of recognizing writing as > being writing - they clearly know how to deface it - but an illiterate human > can do that as well, and I imagine an ape could be trained to do so in time. > We also know that orcs can recognize symbols, such as an S-rune or white > hand for Saruman or the lidless eye for Sauron, but again, a pigeon can > learn which button to push to obtain food. > > Is there an example from either a published text or elsewhere of an orc > actually reading or writing text? Look up "Azog" in the appendices. There is at least one Orc out there who knew how to write. -- Aaron Clausen taocow@alberni.net ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 2 Oct 2003 20:42:35 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 14 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!gumby.it.wmich.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123480 AC wrote: : Look up "Azog" in the appendices. There is at least one Orc out there who : knew how to write. : -- : Aaron Clausen I am not sure that branding one's name into someone's face really counts as writing. If I gave a monkey a rubber stamp with his name on it, would the fact he could stamp his name on things make him literate? Stephen ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 16:49:27 -0400 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1065127823 5774 10.121.40.95 (2 Oct 2003 20:50:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:50:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!216.166.71.118.MISMATCH!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123481 "AC" wrote > On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:47:00 -0400, > Bruce Tucker wrote: > > Is there an example from either a published text or elsewhere of an orc > > actually reading or writing text? > > Look up "Azog" in the appendices. There is at least one Orc out there who > knew how to write. Ah. It was something obvious. Although thinking about it, was the name carved or branded? It would be typical orcish humor to force a captive to fashion a brand of his captor's name and then brand the name on his forehead before killing him... -- Bruce Tucker disintegration@mindspring.com ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs References: Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: taocow@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 21:03:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!130.59.10.21.MISMATCH!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123486 On 2 Oct 2003 20:42:35 GMT, stephen@nomail.com wrote: > AC wrote: > >: Look up "Azog" in the appendices. There is at least one Orc out there who >: knew how to write. > >: -- >: Aaron Clausen > > I am not sure that branding one's name into someone's face really > counts as writing. If I gave a monkey a rubber stamp with his > name on it, would the fact he could stamp his name on > things make him literate? Hardly a compelling, or accurate, comparison. Did Azog have an Elvish scribe? Surely he must have known enough to carve his name, and if he knew that much then there as at least some evidence that Orcs could write. -- Aaron Clausen taocow@alberni.net ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 2 Oct 2003 21:13:37 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 29 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123477 AC wrote: : On 2 Oct 2003 20:42:35 GMT, : stephen@nomail.com wrote: :> AC wrote: :> :>: Look up "Azog" in the appendices. There is at least one Orc out there who :>: knew how to write. :> :>: -- :>: Aaron Clausen :> :> I am not sure that branding one's name into someone's face really :> counts as writing. If I gave a monkey a rubber stamp with his :> name on it, would the fact he could stamp his name on :> things make him literate? : Hardly a compelling, or accurate, comparison. Did Azog have an Elvish : scribe? Surely he must have known enough to carve his name, and if he knew : that much then there as at least some evidence that Orcs could write. Why must he surely have known enough to carve his name? He branded his name onto Thror's brow. He did not carve his name. The fact that he had a brand with his name on it does not mean he knew how to write his own name. He could have forced some dwarf (or even paid some dwarf) to make a brand with his name on it. That way he could easily mark his property, without knowing how to write his name. Stephen ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 21:27:51 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bacchus.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1065130071 27373 129.241.210.178 (2 Oct 2003 21:27:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 21:27:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!130.59.10.21.MISMATCH!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123476 In article , AC wrote: >On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:47:00 -0400, >Bruce Tucker wrote: >> >> Is there an example from either a published text or elsewhere of an orc >> actually reading or writing text? > >Look up "Azog" in the appendices. There is at least one Orc out there who >knew how to write. I think orcs would be big on graffiti (not the artsy nice-looking kind) and unpleasant writing in general. If you can write, you can insult people a lot more efficiently. -- Leif Kjønnøy, Geek of a Few Trades. http://www.pvv.org/~leifmk Disclaimer: Do not try this at home. Void where prohibited by law. Batteries not included. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 2 Oct 2003 21:50:50 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 28 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!news.cc.uic.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123836 Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y wrote: : In article , : AC wrote: :>On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:47:00 -0400, :>Bruce Tucker wrote: :>> :>> Is there an example from either a published text or elsewhere of an orc :>> actually reading or writing text? :> :>Look up "Azog" in the appendices. There is at least one Orc out there who :>knew how to write. : I think orcs would be big on graffiti (not the artsy nice-looking kind) : and unpleasant writing in general. If you can write, you can insult : people a lot more efficiently. We actually do have evidence of Orc graffiti in the book. "Upon its knees and mighty chair, and all about the pedestal, were idle scrawls mixed with the foul symbols that the maggot-folk of Mordor used." Assuming that the "scrawling" was done by the "maggot-folk" (which is not the only way to interpret this sentence), I would take that to mean that the Orcs were scrawling profanities or whatever on the statue. I like the fact that the Orcs think Sauron is a cyclops. :) Stephen ###### From: "Jon Meltzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <_F2fb.9312$3S.6213@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 23:38:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.138.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1065137914 165.121.138.131 (Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:38:34 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:38:34 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.state.mn.us!arclight.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123848 wrote in message news:blhik4$2fk1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > What do others think? When you read LotR, did you > imagine the Orcs as clever engineers? No. Marketing. ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 09:09:51 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp128-241.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1065154249 54067 62.118.128.241 (3 Oct 2003 04:10:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 04:10:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!image.surnet.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123854 AC wrote: > On 2 Oct 2003 20:42:35 GMT, > stephen@nomail.com wrote: > > AC wrote: > > > >: Look up "Azog" in the appendices. There is at least one Orc out there who > >: knew how to write. > > > >: -- > >: Aaron Clausen > > > > I am not sure that branding one's name into someone's face really > > counts as writing. If I gave a monkey a rubber stamp with his > > name on it, would the fact he could stamp his name on > > things make him literate? > > Hardly a compelling, or accurate, comparison. Did Azog have an Elvish > scribe? Surely he must have known enough to carve his name, and if he knew > that much then there as at least some evidence that Orcs could write. Evidence is compelling: The Crossroads. The orcish graffiti. Archie -- "I have told my sons that they are not under any circumstances to take part in massacres, and that the news of massacres of enemies is not to fill them with satisfaction or glee." Kurt Vonnegut, _Slaughterhouse-Five_ ###### Message-ID: <3F7D2938.334640DE@1.au> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:35:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.37.182 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1065166513 172.21.37.182 (Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:35:13 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:35:13 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123861 stephen@nomail.com wrote: > Assuming that the "scrawling" was done by the "maggot-folk" > (which is not the only way to interpret this sentence), I would > take that to mean that the Orcs were scrawling profanities > or whatever on the statue. If Orcs were berd from elvish and/or human stock, then one would assume that they would have at least the intellectual capacity to read and write, if someone was to instruct them. And why not - in Silm it's mentioned that after the War of Wrath, Orcs founded "petty kingdoms" in M-E, something that IMO implies a relatively advanced culture. -JJ ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <_F2fb.9312$3S.6213@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Lines: 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 08:22:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.83 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1065169321 172.27.158.83 (Fri, 03 Oct 2003 11:22:01 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 11:22:01 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123864 in <_F2fb.9312$3S.6213@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>, Jon Meltzer enriched us with: > > wrote in message > news:blhik4$2fk1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > >> What do others think? When you read LotR, did you >> imagine the Orcs as clever engineers? > > No. Marketing. Irredeemably evil? -- Troels Forchhammer Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Lines: 23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 08:30:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.83 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1065169845 172.27.158.83 (Fri, 03 Oct 2003 11:30:45 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 11:30:45 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news1.spb.su!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123865 in , AC enriched us with: > > Actually, I do think Orcs were clever engineers. I think they could > mine out mountains, forge steel, make armor, and probably even > produce food of some kind. We even know that at least a few were > literate, and that doesn't sound like an animal to me. I quite agree. I think that there was a number of references to Orcs not being trustworthy, but I can't remember any evidence saying that they were more stupid than Men. Not that that in itself proves that they weren't, but passages like the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag shows, IMO, individuals with a good grasp of the strategic situation and with a knowledge that exceeds what their superiors would have preferred. -- Troels Forchhammer Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:02:48 -0400 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1065197005 21531 10.121.40.95 (3 Oct 2003 16:03:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 16:03:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123874 wrote > AC wrote: > > On 2 Oct 2003 20:42:35 GMT, > > Hardly a compelling, or accurate, comparison. Did Azog have an Elvish > > scribe? Surely he must have known enough to carve his name, and if he knew > > that much then there as at least some evidence that Orcs could write. > Evidence is compelling: The Crossroads. The orcish graffiti. I wouldn't regard the latter as compelling evidence. Many wicked men went that way as well. It's plain that orcs were the ones who set the mock head up, but it could easily be that the "idle scrawls" were the handiwork of Haradrim and other Southrons while orcs left only the "foul symbols that the maggot-folk of Mordor used" - meaning orcs could draw crude pictures, even heraldic signs like the eye or the hand, but weren't literate in any meaningful sense. The case for Azog is better. He might have had someone make the brand for him, but who would work for orcs? And it's not the sort of thing they'd find lying around to steal. But if the most advanced member of the culture is able to write his own name and that's about it, it still hardly qualifies as a literate culture. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration@mindspring.com ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 3 Oct 2003 16:20:14 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 11 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: arctic2.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.9 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news2.telebyte.nl!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123875 Bruce Tucker wrote: : The case for Azog is better. He might have had someone make the brand for : him, but who would work for orcs? From "The Hobbit" "in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliance with them [the goblins]." Throughout the mythology we are told that some dwarves would work for anyone if the price was right. The orcs also had captives who could be forced to work. Stephen ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:53:23 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123894 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, wrote: >In "The Hobbit" we are told that > "... Goblins are cruel, wicked and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful > things, but they make many clever ones... ...It is not unlikely that > they invented the machines that have since troublewd the world, > especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people > at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, > and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; > but in those days and in those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) > so far." >What do others think? When you read LotR, did you >imagine the Orcs as clever engineers? Did you think >that Shagrat, Ugluk, Grishnahk and the rest of the gang >were mechanically inclined? I agree. Just as Hobbit-Elves and LotR-Elves were very different races, Hobbit-goblins and LotR-Orcs were quite different. LotR-Orcs were thugs or, at best, gangsters; Hobbit-goblins had an organized society and even made treaty with other races. As time goes by I find it harder and harder to take /The Hobbit/ as canonical. there's just too much inconsistent with LotR and Silm. Not the big stuff, no; but a bunch of small details. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Jens Kilian Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 06 Oct 2003 15:37:04 +0200 Organization: Agilent Technologies Deutschland GmbH Lines: 13 Sender: jensk@socbl033.germany.agilent.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cswreg.cos.agilent.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: cswtrans.cos.agilent.com 1065447425 13837 130.29.154.45 (6 Oct 2003 13:37:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cswtrans.cos.agilent.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 13:37:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Bot-Bait: Bait User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: cswreg.cos.agilent.com!unknown@socbl033.germany.agilent.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!prodigy.com!prodigy.com!agilent.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123974 "Bruce Tucker" writes: > Is there an example from either a published text or elsewhere of an orc > actually reading or writing text? I don't remember any, but FWIW there is a reference to "scribbles" (or similar) in the description of the King's statue at the Crossroads in Ithilien. (Of course, these may have been more like graffitists' tags than actual writing...) -- mailto:jjk@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698) http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351 As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish, so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake] ###### From: Jens Kilian Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 06 Oct 2003 15:42:58 +0200 Organization: Agilent Technologies Deutschland GmbH Lines: 18 Sender: jensk@socbl033.germany.agilent.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cswreg.cos.agilent.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: cswtrans.cos.agilent.com 1065447778 13837 130.29.154.45 (6 Oct 2003 13:42:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cswtrans.cos.agilent.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 13:42:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Bot-Bait: Bait User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: cswreg.cos.agilent.com!unknown@socbl033.germany.agilent.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!bigfeed.bellsouth.net!bigfeed2.bellsouth.net!news.bellsouth.net!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!prodigy.com!agilent.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123975 "Bruce Tucker" writes: > How the orcs of the Misty Mountains fed themselves I can't imagine. I don't even *want* to imagine. > And while orc medicine was crude compared to the traditions handed down > among the more enlightened among the Free Peoples of Middle-earth, it was > nonetheless an effective technology, much more so than I'd imagine troll > medicine being ("Give 'im anuvver knock on 'is noggin, Bill, an' see if 'at > don't wake 'im up!") According to Terry Pratchett, trolls are very good at retrophrenology. Vg tbrf yvxr guvf: Cuerabybtl vf n cfrhqb-fpvrapr gelvat gb rkcynva fbzrobql'f punenpgre ol vagrecergvat gur ohzcf naq qragf bs uvf penavhz. Ergebcuerabybtl nggrzcgf gb *zbqvsl* bar'f punenpgre ol fgengrtvpnyyl nygrevat gurfr ohzcf naq qragf, hfvat n unzzre be bgure oyhag vafgehzrag. ###### From: "Membranous Gauss" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 01:43:05 +0200 Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.165.241.78 X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1065656800 23224 165.165.241.78 (8 Oct 2003 23:46:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2003 23:46:40 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124108 wrote in message news:blk7ju$1u17$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > Bruce Tucker wrote: > : The case for Azog is better. He might have had someone make the brand for > : him, but who would work for orcs? > From "The Hobbit" > "in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliance with them > [the goblins]." > Throughout the mythology we are told that some dwarves would work > for anyone if the price was right. The orcs also had captives > who could be forced to work. > > Stephen If I were a Dwarf and some orc asked me to make a brand with his name on it, I would carve out the runes that say '100% pure beef'. Or maybe 'I've been branded by stupid' or maybe even 'This? It's just a flesh wound' ###### From: "Membranous Gauss" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 01:47:23 +0200 Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.165.241.78 X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1065657071 23324 165.165.241.78 (8 Oct 2003 23:51:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2003 23:51:11 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124109 > > As time goes by I find it harder and harder to take /The Hobbit/ as > canonical. there's just too much inconsistent with LotR and Silm. > Not the big stuff, no; but a bunch of small details. Like Bullroarer Took knocking off the head of Golfimbul into a rabbit hole, simulataneously winning the battle and inventing the game of golf? How come no hobbits played golf in LOTR? Even better, how come the name of the hobbit lands is called the Shire in LOTR but this was never mentioned in The Hobbit? ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 00:53:10 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124117 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Membranous Gauss wrote: >Even better, how come the name of the hobbit lands is called the Shire in >LOTR but this was never mentioned in The Hobbit? Names of lands were generally not mentioned in The Hobbit. I don't belie eve we ever learned the name of Erebor, for instance. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Jens Kilian Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 09 Oct 2003 13:08:45 +0200 Organization: Agilent Technologies Deutschland GmbH Lines: 11 Sender: jensk@socbl033.germany.agilent.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cswreg.cos.agilent.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: cswtrans.cos.agilent.com 1065697726 14933 130.29.154.45 (9 Oct 2003 11:08:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cswtrans.cos.agilent.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:08:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Bot-Bait: Bait User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: cswreg.cos.agilent.com!unknown@socbl033.germany.agilent.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!63.218.45.10.MISMATCH!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!prodigy.com!prodigy.com!agilent.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124123 "Membranous Gauss" writes: > If I were a Dwarf and some orc asked me to make a brand with his name on it, > I would carve out the runes that say '100% pure beef'. Or maybe 'I've been > branded by stupid' or maybe even 'This? It's just a flesh wound' "Poor Impulse Control" -- mailto:jjk@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698) http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351 As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish, so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake] ###### From: Hasdrubal Hamilcar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 63 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:13:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1066601590 63.139.135.29 (Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:13:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:13:10 EDT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124506 stephen@nomail.com wrote: > In "The Hobbit" we are told that > > "... Goblins are cruel, wicked and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful > things, but they make many clever ones... ...It is not unlikely that > they invented the machines that have since troublewd the world, > especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people > at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, > and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; > but in those days and in those wild parts they had not advanced > so far." > > but nowhere in the mythology that I am aware of do we ever > see Orcs making clever things, or to even be in possession > of clever things that they clearly made. > > Given that towards the end Tolkien considered the possibility > that Orcs were nothing but animals, I do not think that his > final vision of the Orcs included the idea that they were > the inventors of clever machines. > > What do others think? When you read LotR, did you > imagine the Orcs as clever engineers? Did you think > that Shagrat, Ugluk, Grishnahk and the rest of the gang > were mechanically inclined? > This attitude is something that has been present in recent times, during both world wars, all production of luxury goods was banned and only material useful to the men on the front was produced. Tolkien has said in his letters that he regarded men who were hell-bent on war to be "Orcs among us" or some phrase like that. Perhaps that is what he imagined orcs to be like, delighting in only making weapons of war and nothing else. Interestingly people have often thought their enemies were excessively utilitarian and not beautiful enough. Nazi Germany is only remembered as a nation that made weapons and death, and no beautiful items. Communist states were also like that, and now North Korea joins the list. One other explanation for this is any ruler who hates his people will never be spending any money on beautiful things for them. Sometimes this is a practical neccessity, as was during the world wars when men's lives were at stake. When humans are not under external or internal duress, then they naturally make things that are fun and beautiful to use, in imitation of nature, efficiency be damned. The real life orc society was Sparta, where nothing was allowed to get in the way of making the best army in the world, but they NEVER produced any art, literature or philosophy like Athens did, even though their philosophers mostly admired Sparta. Spartan women were the most beautiful in Greece and not ugly like Orcs (due to exercise and selective breeding/eugenics perhaps). So the closest "prototypical" real life orc story was a bit more balanced than Tolkiens extreme portrait of orcs. Hasan ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 19 Oct 2003 23:52:30 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-622.bonobo.dialup.pol.co.uk (217.134.50.110) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1066607550 29115930 217.134.50.110 (16 [134236]) User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!modem-622.bonobo.dialup.pol.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124508 Hasdrubal Hamilcar wrote in news:W%Dkb.399014$Lnr1.183597@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com: > > Interestingly people have often thought their enemies were > excessively utilitarian and not beautiful enough. Otoh, the famously graceful lines of Concorde were due entirely to utility - the pursuit of speed. True art combines aesthetics with practicality; the best writing should be accessible as well as beautiful. That's why many artists look to nature for inspiration. -- Cheers, ymt. Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com ###### From: Hasdrubal Hamilcar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:08:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1066673324 63.139.135.29 (Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:08:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:08:44 EDT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124561 Yuk Tang wrote: > Hasdrubal Hamilcar wrote in > news:W%Dkb.399014$Lnr1.183597@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com: > >>Interestingly people have often thought their enemies were >>excessively utilitarian and not beautiful enough. > > > Otoh, the famously graceful lines of Concorde were due entirely to > utility - the pursuit of speed. True art combines aesthetics with > practicality; the best writing should be accessible as well as > beautiful. That's why many artists look to nature for inspiration. > > Beautiful like the ring? ;) Hasan ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs Date: 20 Oct 2003 18:50:52 GMT Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1779.bear.dialup.pol.co.uk (217.134.38.243) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1066675852 28980684 217.134.38.243 (16 [134236]) User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!modem-1779.bear.dialup.pol.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124564 Hasdrubal Hamilcar wrote in news:MwVkb.413315$Lnr1.282283@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com: > Yuk Tang wrote: >> Hasdrubal Hamilcar wrote in >> news:W%Dkb.399014$Lnr1.183597@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com: >> >>>Interestingly people have often thought their enemies were >>>excessively utilitarian and not beautiful enough. >> >> Otoh, the famously graceful lines of Concorde were due entirely to >> utility - the pursuit of speed. True art combines aesthetics with >> practicality; the best writing should be accessible as well as >> beautiful. That's why many artists look to nature for inspiration. >> > Beautiful like the ring? ;) Britain-France licenced other believers to share the usage of this powerful class of artifacts, that would recreate the world as they would like them. These believers rejoiced in this new age, this shrinking, cosmopolitan world, and these beautiful objects of art. But from afar they heard the voice of doom, those who protested against the sonic boom. So they removed their options to buy and said, nay, we will not thus be fooled. Britain-France found use for the Seven and the Nine, but the change from the original plan ensured its ultimate failure. -- Cheers, ymt. Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com ###### From: Hasdrubal Hamilcar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Message-ID: <%1%kb.218977$ko%.111510@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:25:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1066695931 63.139.135.29 (Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:25:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:25:31 EDT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news2.telebyte.nl!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124587 Yuk Tang wrote: > Hasdrubal Hamilcar wrote in > news:MwVkb.413315$Lnr1.282283@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com: >> >>Beautiful like the ring? ;) > > > Britain-France licenced other believers to share the usage of this > powerful class of artifacts, that would recreate the world as they > would like them. These believers rejoiced in this new age, this > shrinking, cosmopolitan world, and these beautiful objects of art. > > But from afar they heard the voice of doom, those who protested against > the sonic boom. So they removed their options to buy and said, nay, we > will not thus be fooled. > > Britain-France found use for the Seven and the Nine, but the change > from the original plan ensured its ultimate failure. > > There is a story about one of the Canadian 1950s era Avro Arrow jets being flown away in secret after the govt. ordered them all destroyed. The "One" that got away. (Avro Canada was shut down by a conservative Canadian Prime minister who ordered all its planes destroyed. The engineers and workers at Avro were promptly hired by British and French and American aerospace companies and NASA, and went to work on the concorde and all subsequent NASA space missions. The teaching of the government was that Avro should be building toasters instead of supersonic aircraft. Not quite orcish, but plain dumb.) Hasan ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Subject: Re: Engineering Aptitude of Orcs From: Graham Lockwood Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <%1%kb.218977$ko%.111510@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:17:12 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.7.176.92 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: fed1read07 1066763835 68.7.176.92 (Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:17:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:17:15 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!p01!fed1read07.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:124661 Hasdrubal Hamilcar said: {snip} > There is a story about one of the Canadian 1950s era Avro Arrow jets > being flown away in secret after the govt. ordered them all destroyed. > The "One" that got away. {snip} Then there was the Soviet version. Saruman, anybody? ||// // "The narrative ends here. || // |// // There is no reason to think ||// (/ // that any more was ever written. |// ||// The manuscript, which becomes // |// increasingly rapid towards the end, //| (/ peters out in a scrawl." //|| || -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||