From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Was Tolkien a semi-Cathar? Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:53:52 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 72 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123300 This morning at breakfast I was idly turning over the pages of my Encyclopedia Britannica -- you know, the way people do -- and I ran across the entry CATHARI. Quotes are from the BE. The Cathars or Albigensians were a Christian sect that flourished in the 12th and 13th centuries in France and Italy. Their church was organized enough to have 13 bishops at its height. Their beliefs were dualist: "that goodness exists only in the spiritual world of the good God; that the material world is evil and was created by an evil god or spirit called Satan." What made me take notice was a later paragraph about "a difference within the ... churches themselves: between those who held that Satan, the creator of the world, had once been an angel of God who had fallen from grace, and those who held that he was an independent deity." Tolkien makes it clear that Melkor/Morgoth had originally been an angel, indeed the greatest angel. As to "created the world", remember that Melkor had a share in the gifts of all the Ainur and that he was involved in all the physical stuff of the world. It gets better: "Matter, they were all agreed, was evil. Man was an alien and a sojourner in an evil world, and his aim must be to free his spirit, which was in its nature good, and restore it to communion with God." This squares with Tolkien's distinction between the uncorrupt fea that proceeds directly from Eru, and the corrupt body that is made of stuff tainted with the "Morgoth element". It also matches nicely the Gift of Men, to pass right out of the Circles of the World leaving their corrupt bodies behind. "[T]hey had a horror of procreation because it involved the imprisonment of more spirit in the world of flesh." Recall Tolkien's statements about the Ainur (not Men) that procreation ("begetting") of all activities is the one that has the greatest effect of binding their spirit into their body. "The orthodox doctrine of ... God, as it were, imprisoned in human flesh was impossible to the Cathars. Jesus was an angel merely, who came to indicate the way to salvation not himself to provide it." This sounds a bit like Eru taking up the instrument of the Valar, Olorin or Gandalf, whom Tolkien described as an incarnate angel, whose job was to lead the "good" peoples to resist the evil in their world, not to conquer it himself. Do I really think Tolkien held Catharist views? Certainly not: his orthodox Catholicism is well documented. And further, I've cherry- picked the article: the Cathars had some doctrines that are quite inconsistent with Tolkien's mythology. But I was struck by some similarities, particularly that idea of matter as evil and spirit as good. As a good Catholic, would Tolkien have studied important splinter sects like the Cathars? Might come of their doctrines have stuck in his subconscious and found their way into his work? You can read more about the Cathars in the 1911 Britannica on line, at . (You need to scroll down a bit on that page.) The article is cut off with, strangely, no link to the next page; however you can get the next page at the beginning of . (followups set to r.a.b.t only) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Was Tolkien a semi-Cathar? Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:58:53 -0400 Lines: 90 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa3rMKY30j4uGoRz1JqyC8sZbGkC7JHj9keNtOcxdZa+dDXjCvHiHzy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2003 14:00:16 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123288 Stan Brown wrote: > The Cathars or Albigensians were a Christian sect that flourished in > the 12th and 13th centuries in France and Italy. Their church was > organized enough to have 13 bishops at its height. Their beliefs > were dualist: "that goodness exists only in the spiritual world of > the good God; that the material world is evil and was created by an > evil god or spirit called Satan." > > What made me take notice was a later paragraph about "a difference > within the ... churches themselves: between those who held that > Satan, the creator of the world, had once been an angel of God who > had fallen from grace, and those who held that he was an independent > deity." Tolkien makes it clear that Melkor/Morgoth had originally > been an angel, indeed the greatest angel. In traditional Christian belief, Satan had been the greatest angel. > As to "created the world", > remember that Melkor had a share in the gifts of all the Ainur and > that he was involved in all the physical stuff of the world. It's pretty clear in the Silmarillion that Eru created the world and that Melkor's main contribution was to mess things up. Much closer to Catholicism than Catharism. > "Matter, they were all agreed, was evil. Man was an alien and a > sojourner in an evil world, and his aim must be to free his spirit, > which was in its nature good, and restore it to communion with God." > This squares with Tolkien's distinction between the uncorrupt fea > that proceeds directly from Eru, and the corrupt body that is made > of stuff tainted with the "Morgoth element". The created world in Tolkien is not so much intrinsically evil as tainted with Morgoth's evil. This is much closer to the effect of Original Sin (see e.g. Genesis 3:17-19) than the Catharist idea of an intrinsically evil world. > It also matches nicely > the Gift of Men, to pass right out of the Circles of the World > leaving their corrupt bodies behind. The Gift also matches nicely the orthodox Christian belief in the afterlife for the soul. Which is likelier to have inspired Tolkien? > "[T]hey had a horror of procreation because it involved the > imprisonment of more spirit in the world of flesh." Recall Tolkien's > statements about the Ainur (not Men) that procreation ("begetting") > of all activities is the one that has the greatest effect of binding > their spirit into their body. Not quite the same thing. The Cathar is not more bound to the world via his procreation; the horror comes from the imprisonment of yet another spirit in the body of his child. > "The orthodox doctrine of ... God, as it were, imprisoned in human > flesh was impossible to the Cathars. Jesus was an angel merely, who > came to indicate the way to salvation not himself to provide it." > This sounds a bit like Eru taking up the instrument of the Valar, > Olorin or Gandalf, whom Tolkien described as an incarnate angel, > whose job was to lead the "good" peoples to resist the evil in their > world, not to conquer it himself. Of course the Hebrew prophets had the same mission as the Catharist conception of Jesus. The Wizards' mission was a little different, involving resisting the physical domination of Sauron rather than achieving salvation. > Do I really think Tolkien held Catharist views? Certainly not: his > orthodox Catholicism is well documented. And further, I've cherry- > picked the article: the Cathars had some doctrines that are quite > inconsistent with Tolkien's mythology. But I was struck by some > similarities, particularly that idea of matter as evil and spirit as > good. As a good Catholic, would Tolkien have studied important > splinter sects like the Cathars? Might come of their doctrines have > stuck in his subconscious and found their way into his work? I would be surprised if Tolkien did not know about the Cathars. But most of their ideas were not unique to them (they are just one of several dualist sects throughout history), and the ideas Tolkien used seem closer to other belief systems. -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: "Chocoholic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Was Tolkien a semi-Cathar? Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:59:04 -0400 Organization: NOT! Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 69 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123344 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.19e0a3cc3580a01c98b472@news.odyssey.net... > This morning at breakfast I was idly turning over the pages of my > Encyclopedia Britannica -- you know, the way people do -- and I ran > across the entry CATHARI. Quotes are from the BE. > > The Cathars or Albigensians were a Christian sect that flourished in > the 12th and 13th centuries in France and Italy. Their church was > organized enough to have 13 bishops at its height. Their beliefs > were dualist: "that goodness exists only in the spiritual world of > the good God; that the material world is evil and was created by an > evil god or spirit called Satan." > > What made me take notice was a later paragraph about "a difference > within the ... churches themselves: between those who held that > Satan, the creator of the world, had once been an angel of God who > had fallen from grace, and those who held that he was an independent > deity." Tolkien makes it clear that Melkor/Morgoth had originally > been an angel, indeed the greatest angel. As to "created the world", > remember that Melkor had a share in the gifts of all the Ainur and > that he was involved in all the physical stuff of the world. > > It gets better: > > "Matter, they were all agreed, was evil. Man was an alien and a > sojourner in an evil world, and his aim must be to free his spirit, > which was in its nature good, and restore it to communion with God." > This squares with Tolkien's distinction between the uncorrupt fea > that proceeds directly from Eru, and the corrupt body that is made > of stuff tainted with the "Morgoth element". It also matches nicely > the Gift of Men, to pass right out of the Circles of the World > leaving their corrupt bodies behind. > > "[T]hey had a horror of procreation because it involved the > imprisonment of more spirit in the world of flesh." Recall Tolkien's > statements about the Ainur (not Men) that procreation ("begetting") > of all activities is the one that has the greatest effect of binding > their spirit into their body. > > "The orthodox doctrine of ... God, as it were, imprisoned in human > flesh was impossible to the Cathars. Jesus was an angel merely, who > came to indicate the way to salvation not himself to provide it." > This sounds a bit like Eru taking up the instrument of the Valar, > Olorin or Gandalf, whom Tolkien described as an incarnate angel, > whose job was to lead the "good" peoples to resist the evil in their > world, not to conquer it himself. > > Do I really think Tolkien held Catharist views? Certainly not: his > orthodox Catholicism is well documented. And further, I've cherry- > picked the article: the Cathars had some doctrines that are quite > inconsistent with Tolkien's mythology. But I was struck by some > similarities, particularly that idea of matter as evil and spirit as > good. As a good Catholic, would Tolkien have studied important > splinter sects like the Cathars? Might come of their doctrines have > stuck in his subconscious and found their way into his work? > > You can read more about the Cathars in the 1911 Britannica on line, > at . (You need to > scroll down a bit on that page.) The article is cut off with, > strangely, no link to the next page; however you can get the next > page at the beginning of > . > Why does he have to fit some rigid category? Can't he have some personal opinions without being some particular 'species' of heretic? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Was Tolkien a semi-Cathar? References: Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: taocow@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:20:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!newsfeeder2.randori.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123370 On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:59:04 -0400, Chocoholic wrote: > > Why does he have to fit some rigid category? Can't he have some personal > opinions without being some particular 'species' of heretic? He doesn't have to be some species of heretic, but heretics are always interesting. -- Aaron Clausen taocow@alberni.net ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Was Tolkien a semi-Cathar? Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:44:46 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123359 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Chocoholic wrote, first quoting me: >> Do I really think Tolkien held Catharist views? Certainly not: his >> orthodox Catholicism is well documented. And further, I've cherry- >> picked the article: the Cathars had some doctrines that are quite >> inconsistent with Tolkien's mythology. But I was struck by some >> similarities, > >Why does he have to fit some rigid category? Can't he have some personal >opinions without being some particular 'species' of heretic? Well, golly. You quoted my entire article. It's too bad you didn't read it before you started typing. As a hint, I've quoted the part of my original article that stultifies your comment. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 29 Sep 2003 14:59:28 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m02) Subject: Re: Was Tolkien a semi-Cathar? Message-ID: <20030929105928.00545.00001211@mb-m02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!63.218.45.10.MISMATCH!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!38.144.126.70.MISMATCH!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123331 In article , Stan Brown writes: >"Matter, they were all agreed, was evil. Man was an alien and a >sojourner in an evil world, and his aim must be to free his spirit, >which was in its nature good, and restore it to communion with God." >This squares with Tolkien's distinction between the uncorrupt fea >that proceeds directly from Eru, and the corrupt body that is made >of stuff tainted with the "Morgoth element". It also matches nicely >the Gift of Men, to pass right out of the Circles of the World >leaving their corrupt bodies behind. > In Tolkien's ME, however, Ea and Arda were not evil. There was a Morgoth *element* that foudn it's way into creation but matter did not thereby become evil as was believed by that sect. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: JXStern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Was Tolkien a semi-Cathar? Message-ID: <3gdknv4f59a88offttfbtirodkgc7unqa8@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 97 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 02:06:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.125.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1064973978 4.62.125.55 (Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:18 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!4fcf30b0!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123443 On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:53:52 -0400, Stan Brown wrote: >This morning at breakfast I was idly turning over the pages of my >Encyclopedia Britannica -- you know, the way people do -- and I ran >across the entry CATHARI. Quotes are from the BE. > >The Cathars or Albigensians were a Christian sect that flourished in >the 12th and 13th centuries in France and Italy. Their church was >organized enough to have 13 bishops at its height. Their beliefs >were dualist: "that goodness exists only in the spiritual world of >the good God; that the material world is evil and was created by an >evil god or spirit called Satan." ... Who were in turn later manifestations of an older religious tradition: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09591a.htm Manichæism "Manichæism is a religion founded by the Persian Mani in the latter half of the third century. It purported to be the true synthesis of all the religious systems then known, and actually consisted of Zoroastrian Dualism, Babylonian folklore, Buddhist ethics, and some small and superficial, additions of Christian elements. As the theory of two eternal principles, good and evil, is predominant in this fusion of ideas and gives color to the whole, ... "Yet when the Paulicians and Bogomili from Bulgaria came in contact with the West in the eleventh century, and eastern missionaries driven out by the Byzantine emperors taught dualist doctrines in the North of Italy and the South of France they found the leaven of Manichæism still so deeply pervading the minds of the many that they could make it ferment and rise into the formidable Catharist heresies." Please read the entire article and post a synopsis, with an analysis of parallels to Tolkien. Than Kew. J. > >What made me take notice was a later paragraph about "a difference >within the ... churches themselves: between those who held that >Satan, the creator of the world, had once been an angel of God who >had fallen from grace, and those who held that he was an independent >deity." Tolkien makes it clear that Melkor/Morgoth had originally >been an angel, indeed the greatest angel. As to "created the world", >remember that Melkor had a share in the gifts of all the Ainur and >that he was involved in all the physical stuff of the world. > >It gets better: > >"Matter, they were all agreed, was evil. Man was an alien and a >sojourner in an evil world, and his aim must be to free his spirit, >which was in its nature good, and restore it to communion with God." >This squares with Tolkien's distinction between the uncorrupt fea >that proceeds directly from Eru, and the corrupt body that is made >of stuff tainted with the "Morgoth element". It also matches nicely >the Gift of Men, to pass right out of the Circles of the World >leaving their corrupt bodies behind. > >"[T]hey had a horror of procreation because it involved the >imprisonment of more spirit in the world of flesh." Recall Tolkien's >statements about the Ainur (not Men) that procreation ("begetting") >of all activities is the one that has the greatest effect of binding >their spirit into their body. > >"The orthodox doctrine of ... God, as it were, imprisoned in human >flesh was impossible to the Cathars. Jesus was an angel merely, who >came to indicate the way to salvation not himself to provide it." >This sounds a bit like Eru taking up the instrument of the Valar, >Olorin or Gandalf, whom Tolkien described as an incarnate angel, >whose job was to lead the "good" peoples to resist the evil in their >world, not to conquer it himself. > >Do I really think Tolkien held Catharist views? Certainly not: his >orthodox Catholicism is well documented. And further, I've cherry- >picked the article: the Cathars had some doctrines that are quite >inconsistent with Tolkien's mythology. But I was struck by some >similarities, particularly that idea of matter as evil and spirit as >good. As a good Catholic, would Tolkien have studied important >splinter sects like the Cathars? Might come of their doctrines have >stuck in his subconscious and found their way into his work? > >You can read more about the Cathars in the 1911 Britannica on line, >at . (You need to >scroll down a bit on that page.) The article is cut off with, >strangely, no link to the next page; however you can get the next >page at the beginning of >. > >(followups set to r.a.b.t only) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Was Tolkien a semi-Cathar? Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 06:32:25 -0400 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3gdknv4f59a88offttfbtirodkgc7unqa8@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaXW30+w5EcZlds5IIumkNtExQF+uzSTGninGUx7F6yxhMDCI1ohSUQ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Oct 2003 10:33:10 GMT In-Reply-To: <3gdknv4f59a88offttfbtirodkgc7unqa8@4ax.com> X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123950 JXStern wrote: > Please read the entire article and post a synopsis, with an analysis > of parallels to Tolkien. That sounds like a better article than the EB article, at least the pieces quoted, which seem to want to take Catharism in historical isolation. But I for one see little relevance to Tolkien. -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: JXStern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Was Tolkien a semi-Cathar? Message-ID: References: <3gdknv4f59a88offttfbtirodkgc7unqa8@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:34:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.124.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1065371689 4.62.124.64 (Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:34:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:34:49 EDT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!4fcf30b0!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123954 On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 06:32:25 -0400, Flame of the West wrote: >> Please read the entire article and post a synopsis, with an analysis >> of parallels to Tolkien. > >That sounds like a better article than the EB article, >at least the pieces quoted, which seem to want to >take Catharism in historical isolation. But I for one >see little relevance to Tolkien. Not that I'm any expert, but the Cathars were major funky, and the elements of good/bad dualism that one finds in Tolkien are for the most part present in Catholicism. I'm quite certain Tolkien was well aware of these sources, and probably discussed them with C.S. Lewis and all, but as you say, one doesn't really have to go that far afield to understand the themes in LOTR. J.