From: "Tim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Interpretation Question Lines: 7 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.139.94.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr22.news.prodigy.com 1064371460 ST000 66.139.94.38 (Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:44:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:44:20 EDT Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: Q[R_PJSCO@SOBTDYOZOBNFXBBZ\LPCXLLBWLOOAFQATJUZ]CDVW[AKK[J\]^HVKHG^EWZHBLO^[\NH_AZFWGN^\DHNVMX_DHHX[FSQKBOTS@@BP^]C@RHS_AGDDC[AJM_T[GZNRNZAY]GNCPBDYKOLK^_CZFWPGHZIXW@C[AFKBBQS@E@DAZ]VDFUNTQQ]FN Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:44:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr22.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!4e4d92c9!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123080 I've been reading and rereading Morgoth's Ring, which is the most intriguing of the HOME series, in my opinion. Andreth's discussion of the fall of Man...is what she said to be taken as Tolkien's view, or just her theory. In the Silmarillion it is quite plain that man's mortality is a "gift" no a punishment. Which is it? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Interpretation Question References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: taocow@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:31:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!newsfeeder2.randori.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123087 On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:44:20 GMT, Tim wrote: > I've been reading and rereading Morgoth's Ring, which is the most intriguing > of the HOME series, in my opinion. Andreth's discussion of the fall of > Man...is what she said to be taken as Tolkien's view, or just her theory. > In the Silmarillion it is quite plain that man's mortality is a "gift" no a > punishment. Which is it? That particular story is rather difficult to fit into the mythology if it is taken at face value. I often took Finrod's reaction to mean that he didn't quite believe it himself. It is an odd piece that doesn't quite sit well with me. I personally see it as some sort of half-remembered legend of the first days when the Second Born awoke in the East. The circumstances are hinted at throughout the versions of the Silmarillion; Men fleeing something as they headed West. -- Aaron Clausen taocow@alberni.net ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:22:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.139.248 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1064402535 162.84.139.248 (Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:22:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:22:15 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123059 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:bkrjbc$4ugpf$1@ID-76471.news.uni-berlin.de... > A gift. Man is guaranteed a future that is different from this life. > Elvenkind, just get recycled. The good news for Elves is that they > delight in their lives, but even this has a limit. Men become > dissatisfied sooner, but still lust for mortal life, mostly because they > know what it is and they are not certain of their future after death. If > men had a fall, it was lack of trust in Iluvatar's plans for them. That > made the succeptable to the lies of Morgoth. > > Aragorn trusted in the Gift, so he died quite gracefuly. He went > (actually he chose to do) at a good time for his son. He did not hang on > to the Bitter End because he knew that if he did he would deprive his > son of kingship and he would become senile and fail anyway. He knew when > to go, when he was on top of his form. Arwan, alas, did not quite "get it". I agree with this. It seems to me that Iluvatar was not quite sure, until he'd experimented, what WOULD be the best way to deal with his singing life forms, so he tried different solutions for the different races: elves remain part of the world and, as you say, recycle, but men use themselves up earlier (LOTS earlier) and then depart for some realm unknown to these pre-Christian Middle Earthians. Considering JRRT's Catholicism, this seems likely only to mean a heavenly incarnation, and no word on it having come down as yet, naturally leaves men confused and suspicious. Faith, in JRRT's world, would have been the greatest of gifts. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: Chris Kern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:34:36 +0900 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <0p33nv4tb6b3p6lf3fufe7foo5haodm21l@4ax.com> References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-385.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123083 On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:22:15 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" posted the following: >It seems to me that Iluvatar was not quite sure, until he'd experimented, >what WOULD be the best way to deal with his singing life forms, so he tried >different solutions for the different races: Of course, any idea that God was "unsure" about something or had to "experiment" would be foreign to JRRT's Catholic thinking as well -- God is perfectly omnipotent and thus knows exactly what he's doing beforehand. -Chris ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 24 Sep 2003 14:17:49 GMT References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m22) Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Message-ID: <20030924101749.01893.00000812@mb-m22.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!63.218.45.10.MISMATCH!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!38.144.126.70.MISMATCH!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123051 In article <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>, "Tim" writes: >I've been reading and rereading Morgoth's Ring, which is the most intriguing >of the HOME series, in my opinion. Andreth's discussion of the fall of >Man...is what she said to be taken as Tolkien's view, or just her theory. It appears to be Tolkien's view because those ideas are repeated in the author's notes and commentary. >In the Silmarillion it is quite plain that man's mortality is a "gift" no a >punishment. Which is it? Mortality (leaving the bounds of Ea) is a gift. The manner of attaining the Gift (aging and dying) is part of the punishment for the Fall. The concept is right out of Genesis. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:13:01 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123062 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born wrote: >It seems to me that Iluvatar was not quite sure, until he'd experimented, >what WOULD be the best way to deal with his singing life forms, so he tried >different solutions for the different races: elves remain part of the world >and, as you say, recycle, but men use themselves up earlier (LOTS earlier) >and then depart for some realm unknown Within the context of the story, I'm not comfortable with the idea of Ilúvatar "experimenting". That would imply that he was not all- knowing, also that he lived in time. I don't think either is really consistent with the Ainulindalë. Were not Elves and men equally part of the Second Theme of the Music? That says that Ilúvatar created them at the same place in his thought, as different races with different gifts, not a greater or a lesser. (While Elves actually _awoke_ in Middle-earth before Men, that doesn't mean they were _created_ first.) In Arda Unmarred, is there any reason why Men would have been necessarily lesser than Elves? Even in the real world -- oops, I mean Arda Marred -- a few Men achieved personal nobility that made them seem like the equals of the Eldar. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: 24 Sep 2003 15:28:29 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 27 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123053 Stan Brown wrote: : Were not Elves and men equally part of the Second Theme of the : Music? That says that Ilúvatar created them at the same place in his : thought, as different races with different gifts, not a greater or a : lesser. (While Elves actually _awoke_ in Middle-earth before Men, : that doesn't mean they were _created_ first.) In Arda Unmarred, is : there any reason why Men would have been necessarily lesser than : Elves? Even in the real world -- oops, I mean Arda Marred -- a few : Men achieved personal nobility that made them seem like the equals : of the Eldar. The Elves and men were part of the Third Theme. "For the Children of Illuvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the Third Theme, and were not in the theme which propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making." The Second Theme is about the Valar's opposition to Melkor. "But Manwe was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Illuvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second Theme that Illuvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor;" Both quotes are from the Silmarillion Stephen ###### From: "Lostwithiel" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:54:09 +0100 Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net (please include full headers) X-Trace: e1439ac4907771bacc6980209f124404d620a56762764691001404c63f71be2a NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:54:18 +0100 Message-ID: <1064418858.39975.0@damia.uk.clara.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!damia.uk.clara.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123052 following on from this, I'm having a "discussion" with some friends about what happened to Men after they died? Did they go to the Halls of Mandos before going off to ... wherever? This was kind of relevant because someone suggested that Aragorn met back up with Arwen in the Halls of Mandos and then they went of together to live a happy afterlife together. I wasn't so sure.... "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:bkrjbc$4ugpf$1@ID-76471.news.uni-berlin.de... > > > Tim wrote: > > > I've been reading and rereading Morgoth's Ring, which is the most intriguing > > of the HOME series, in my opinion. Andreth's discussion of the fall of > > Man...is what she said to be taken as Tolkien's view, or just her theory. > > In the Silmarillion it is quite plain that man's mortality is a "gift" no a > > punishment. Which is it? > > A gift. Man is guaranteed a future that is different from this life. > Elvenkind, just get recycled. The good news for Elves is that they > delight in their lives, but even this has a limit. Men become > dissatisfied sooner, but still lust for mortal life, mostly because they > know what it is and they are not certain of their future after death. If > men had a fall, it was lack of trust in Iluvatar's plans for them. That > made the succeptable to the lies of Morgoth. > > Aragorn trusted in the Gift, so he died quite gracefuly. He went > (actually he chose to do) at a good time for his son. He did not hang on > to the Bitter End because he knew that if he did he would deprive his > son of kingship and he would become senile and fail anyway. He knew when > to go, when he was on top of his form. Arwan, alas, did not quite "get it". > > Bob Kolker > > > Bob Kolker > > ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: 25 Sep 2003 00:42:22 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 40 Message-ID: <6uoex9repd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <1064418858.39975.0@damia.uk.clara.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1064443342 887 10.0.3.2 (24 Sep 2003 22:42:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Sep 2003 22:42:22 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123092 Top quoting fixed, please add later text below previous text, as it is the cultural norm and Usenet standard (later after/below previous). "Lostwithiel" writes: > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message > news:bkrjbc$4ugpf$1@ID-76471.news.uni-berlin.de... > > > > Aragorn trusted in the Gift, so he died quite gracefuly. He went > > what happened to Men after they died? Did they go to the Halls of Mandos Yes. But only stay there temporarily. And possibly in an other part of Mandos. > suggested that Aragorn met back up with Arwen in the Halls of Mandos and > then they went of together to live a happy afterlife together. I wasn't so > sure.... They will most likely meet, as Luthien and Beren did so (she asked him to wait, while he was dying, and then later went over and he was still there). So men can wait a while (how long, enough for Arwen to spend months before dying? most likely). If they after go and live together, that is open. Luthien was allowed to "change species" (and was actually given that as condition for returning to ME with Beren), but only after consultation with the Valar. If Arwen will be granted the same dispense (at her wish, and at what cost?) is open. No doubt she speculated on getting it. And Elronds sorry at losing her lets us assume he also expects it to be granted. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <20030924101749.01893.00000812@mb-m22.aol.com> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:29:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.182.73 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1064428180 162.83.182.73 (Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:29:40 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:29:40 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123135 "Russ" wrote in message news:20030924101749.01893.00000812@mb-m22.aol.com... > >In the Silmarillion it is quite plain that man's mortality is a "gift" no a > >punishment. Which is it? > > Mortality (leaving the bounds of Ea) is a gift. The manner of attaining the > Gift (aging and dying) is part of the punishment for the Fall. The concept is > right out of Genesis. Yes, but there is no Fall in Tolkien's Creation. That just happens to be their fate. Or did I miss something? Tsar Parmathule ###### Lines: 19 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 24 Sep 2003 18:42:02 GMT References: <1064422520.42559.0@damia.uk.clara.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m26) Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Message-ID: <20030924144202.07346.00000780@mb-m26.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123114 In article <1064422520.42559.0@damia.uk.clara.net>, "Lostwithiel" writes: >I don't know - I wondered if anyone knew of some real evidence that Men go >through the Halls ... there are some hints in the Silm but nothing that says >definitely. Hints? It's stated explicitly in the story of Beren and Luthien. >I always assumed that Aragorn and Arwen never met again - it would diminish >the value of her sacrifice if she knew she'd meet up with him again for all >eternity :) Of course they met again. She became mortal and shared the fate of Men. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: "Lostwithiel" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <1064418858.39975.0@damia.uk.clara.net> <1064422520.42559.0@damia.uk.clara.net> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:46:56 +0100 Lines: 64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net (please include full headers) X-Trace: d718540016b09a76c619275080482a246976f4f0c969e560238760813f71e6ab NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:47:07 +0100 Message-ID: <1064429227.48040.0@damia.uk.clara.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!damia.uk.clara.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123112 Wow - I must have missed something here! I presume that the Silm or something else says that Men will go on to another purpose rather than just cease to exist....? "Graham Lockwood" wrote in message news:BB972178.DD24%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDotOrg@IgnoreThis.AndThis... > Lostwithiel said: > > I don't know - I wondered if anyone knew of some real evidence that Men go > > through the Halls ... there are some hints in the Silm but nothing that says > > definitely. > > When Beren died, his fea went West to Aman and hung around either in Mandos > or at the Western Edge of the World (I forget which) because he was > reluctant to leave without Luthien IIRC. Luthien died of grief shortly > thereafter but had enough time to get Beren reborn and her turned into a > (living) human before Beren skedadled out of Ea. Now, I have no idea how > long Beren waited around in Ea or if such a wait was anything but normal > (the romance of Beren and Luthien was certainly anything but normal) but I > suppose it's at least conceivable that Aragorn could have waited for Arwen > to join him. However, I don't think Tolkien ever said that he *did* wait for > her. > > > I always assumed that Aragorn and Arwen never met again - it would diminish > > the value of her sacrifice if she knew she'd meet up with him again for all > > eternity :) > > Whoa! I think you miss the whole point of Arwen's becoming mortal. By > becoming mortal, she agreed to abide by the Fate of Men, rather than the > Fate of Elves. And so, once she had died, her fea would leave Ea and she > would never see her family (Elrond, Celebrian, etc.) again. OTOH, she would > share in the fate of Aragorn's fea and so *would* see him again. If she was > never going to see Aragorn again after death, then there would be no point > in her becoming mortal. > > {snip} > > > > Oh, and, um, insert here some standard admonition of BOTTOM posting, instead > of top posting. It really DOES help considerably. > > > > ||// // "The narrative ends here. || // > |// // There is no reason to think ||// > (/ // that any more was ever written. |// > ||// The manuscript, which becomes // > |// increasingly rapid towards the end, //| > (/ peters out in a scrawl." //|| > || -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // || > > ###### From: "Lostwithiel" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <1064418858.39975.0@damia.uk.clara.net> <1064422520.42559.0@damia.uk.clara.net> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:48:29 +0100 Lines: 8 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net (please include full headers) X-Trace: 66669118c6030024b307a693e72f80f1c145e71f0960944001d274483f71e706 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:48:38 +0100 Message-ID: <1064429318.48102.0@damia.uk.clara.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!damia.uk.clara.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123111 > Oh, and, um, insert here some standard admonition of BOTTOM posting, instead > of top posting. It really DOES help considerably. > Apologies - I do *try* and remember! ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: 24 Sep 2003 18:49:18 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 23 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <20030924101749.01893.00000812@mb-m22.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123120 A Tsar Is Born wrote: : "Russ" wrote in message : news:20030924101749.01893.00000812@mb-m22.aol.com... :> >In the Silmarillion it is quite plain that man's mortality is a "gift" no : a :> >punishment. Which is it? :> :> Mortality (leaving the bounds of Ea) is a gift. The manner of attaining : the :> Gift (aging and dying) is part of the punishment for the Fall. The : concept is :> right out of Genesis. : Yes, but there is no Fall in Tolkien's Creation. : That just happens to be their fate. : Or did I miss something? You missed something. Stephen ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 24 Sep 2003 18:52:41 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m20) Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Message-ID: <20030924145241.12300.00000740@mb-m20.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123113 In article , "A Tsar Is Born" writes: >"Russ" wrote in message >news:20030924101749.01893.00000812@mb-m22.aol.com... >> >In the Silmarillion it is quite plain that man's mortality is a "gift" no >a >> >punishment. Which is it? >> >> Mortality (leaving the bounds of Ea) is a gift. The manner of attaining >the >> Gift (aging and dying) is part of the punishment for the Fall. The >concept is >> right out of Genesis. > >Yes, but there is no Fall in Tolkien's Creation. >That just happens to be their fate. > >Or did I miss something? Uh, yes. The Fall of Man is a big concept in Tolkien's writings. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:56:06 +0100 Organization: University of Durham Lines: 38 Message-ID: <3F722106.7000401@durham.ac.uk> References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <1064418858.39975.0@damia.uk.clara.net> <6uoex9repd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: howland-06.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sirius.dur.ac.uk 1064444167 8403 129.234.54.11 (24 Sep 2003 22:56:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@durham.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:56:07 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!feeder2.news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123098 Neil Franklin wrote: > Top quoting fixed, please add later text below previous text, as it is > the cultural norm and Usenet standard (later after/below previous). > > "Lostwithiel" writes: > >>suggested that Aragorn met back up with Arwen in the Halls of Mandos and >>then they went of together to live a happy afterlife together. I wasn't so >>sure.... > > They will most likely meet, as Luthien and Beren did so (she asked him > to wait, while he was dying, and then later went over and he was still > there). So men can wait a while (how long, enough for Arwen to spend > months before dying? most likely). > > If they after go and live together, that is open. Luthien was allowed > to "change species" (and was actually given that as condition for > returning to ME with Beren), but only after consultation with the Valar. > If Arwen will be granted the same dispense (at her wish, and at what > cost?) is open. > This is not what happened with Arwen: as Elrond himself was half-eleven, his children are given the right to chose whether they will go into the West with their father or remain in Middle-earth and become mortal. Arwen's choice is very real, and irrevocable: Appendix A states that her grave is in Lorien, where she went to die after Aragorn passed on. It is a very different scenario to when Luthien died to follow Beren. Jamie -- "The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the appearance of either merit or sense." Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice ###### From: "Deleted Items \(1\)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <%Vpcb.6469$yD1.1079184@news20.bellglobal.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:40:43 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.94.113.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1064446715 65.94.113.224 (Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:38:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:38:35 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123141 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:bkrjbc$4ugpf$1@ID-76471.news.uni-berlin.de... > > > Tim wrote: > > > I've been reading and rereading Morgoth's Ring, which is the most intriguing > > of the HOME series, in my opinion. Andreth's discussion of the fall of > > Man...is what she said to be taken as Tolkien's view, or just her theory. > > In the Silmarillion it is quite plain that man's mortality is a "gift" no a > > punishment. Which is it? > > A gift. Man is guaranteed a future that is different from this life. > Elvenkind, just get recycled. The good news for Elves is that they > delight in their lives, but even this has a limit. Men become > dissatisfied sooner, but still lust for mortal life, mostly because they > know what it is and they are not certain of their future after death. If > men had a fall, it was lack of trust in Iluvatar's plans for them. That > made the succeptable to the lies of Morgoth. > > Aragorn trusted in the Gift, so he died quite gracefuly. He went > (actually he chose to do) at a good time for his son. He did not hang on > to the Bitter End because he knew that if he did he would deprive his > son of kingship and he would become senile and fail anyway. He knew when > to go, when he was on top of his form. Arwan, alas, did not quite "get it". > > Bob Kolker > > > Bob Kolker > > Beautiful. Thank you. ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1064422520.42559.0@damia.uk.clara.net> <20030924144202.07346.00000780@mb-m26.aol.com> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:15:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.177.174 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1064452503 162.83.177.174 (Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:15:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:15:03 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123129 "Russ" wrote in message news:20030924144202.07346.00000780@mb-m26.aol.com... > >I always assumed that Aragorn and Arwen never met again - it would diminish > >the value of her sacrifice if she knew she'd meet up with him again for all > >eternity :) > > Of course they met again. She became mortal and shared the fate of Men. They met again -- don't know where, don't know when -- But I'm sure they met again some sunny day -- Up with Eru Just like you Always do I'm sure they met again some sunny day..... (noted Elvish bard Veralin) Tsar Parmathule ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20030924145241.12300.00000740@mb-m20.aol.com> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:16:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.177.174 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1064452575 162.83.177.174 (Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:16:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:16:15 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123131 "Russ" wrote in message news:20030924145241.12300.00000740@mb-m20.aol.com... > >Yes, but there is no Fall in Tolkien's Creation. > >That just happens to be their fate. > > > >Or did I miss something? > > Uh, yes. The Fall of Man is a big concept in Tolkien's writings. In THIS world, yes. But when do they fall in Arda? Tsar P ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: 25 Sep 2003 01:28:19 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 36 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <20030924145241.12300.00000740@mb-m20.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: arctic.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123121 A Tsar Is Born wrote: : "Russ" wrote in message : news:20030924145241.12300.00000740@mb-m20.aol.com... :> >Yes, but there is no Fall in Tolkien's Creation. :> >That just happens to be their fate. :> > :> >Or did I miss something? :> :> Uh, yes. The Fall of Man is a big concept in Tolkien's writings. : In THIS world, yes. : But when do they fall in Arda? : Tsar P When they chose to listen to Morgoth rather than Eru. This is described in the 'Tale of Adanel', which can be found towards the end of 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' in Morgoth's Ring. Tolkien seemed to be uncomfortable discussing the Fall in any detail. Page 354 of Morgoth's Ring has this interesting note "Query: Is it not right to make Andreth refuse to discuss any traditions or legends of the 'Fall'? Already it is (if inevitably) too like a parody of Christianity. Any legend of the Fall would make it completely so?" In a letter he says "The first fall of Man, for reasons explained, nowhere appears - Men do not come on the stage until all that is long past, and there is only a rumour that for a while they fell under the domination of the Enemy and that some repented" Despite this, Morgoth's Ring does contain a couple other sketches about the Fall of Man. Stephen ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:59:02 -0700 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <1064422520.42559.0@damia.uk.clara.net> <20030924144202.07346.00000780@mb-m26.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c136.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123153 In article , "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > "Russ" wrote in message > news:20030924144202.07346.00000780@mb-m26.aol.com... > > >I always assumed that Aragorn and Arwen never met again - it would > diminish > > >the value of her sacrifice if she knew she'd meet up with him again for > all > > >eternity :) > > > > Of course they met again. She became mortal and shared the fate of Men. > > They met again -- don't know where, don't know when -- > But I'm sure they met again some sunny day -- > Up with Eru if they have faith then theyll believe they will not be ill used not necessarily that their desires of a mortal existence will be fulfilled ###### From: "Tim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.71.24.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr22.news.prodigy.com 1064463255 ST000 65.71.24.217 (Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:14:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:14:15 EDT Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: [[PGGT_DQZVQR_D[N[OJNW@@YJ_ZTB\MV@BT]UEK@YUDUWYAKVUOPCW[ML\JXUCKVFDYZKBMSFX^OMSAFNTINTDDMVW[X\THOPXZRVOCJTUTPC\_JSBVX\KAOTBAJBVMZTYAKMNLDI_MFDSSOLXINH__FS^\WQGHGI^C@E[A_CF\AQLDQ\BTMPLDFNVUQ_VM Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:14:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr22.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!4e4d92c9!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123157 "Tim" wrote in message news:8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com... > I've been reading and rereading Morgoth's Ring, which is the most intriguing > of the HOME series, in my opinion. Andreth's discussion of the fall of > Man...is what she said to be taken as Tolkien's view, or just her theory. > In the Silmarillion it is quite plain that man's mortality is a "gift" no a > punishment. Which is it? > I've read many of the thoughtful responses and I am amazed at the intellects who come here to voice their opinions. My own thoughts on the matter, and I think this is implied in the commentary in Morgoth's Ring, that these views regarding the fate of Men were in flux, and the convernations of Andreth represent a change in the story the JRRT intended to explore or actually take. Of course, I think the original idea that men were intended for something different is more original than the Original Sin flavor Andreth voices. Further, I wholeheartedly agree with those how stated that they didn't believe in the experimentation theory. I think JRRT's vision of Eru was such that He could not err. Thanks for the responses. > ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:03:43 +0100 Organization: University of Durham Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3F72D99F.4030409@durham.ac.uk> References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: howland-06.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sirius.dur.ac.uk 1064491423 21816 129.234.54.11 (25 Sep 2003 12:03:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@durham.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:03:43 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!feeder2.news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123102 Tim wrote: > > I've read many of the thoughtful responses and I am amazed at the intellects > who come here to voice their opinions. You aren't the only one... ;) Jamie -- "The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the appearance of either merit or sense." Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice ###### Message-ID: <3F72F80F.7B4D35B3@1.au> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:19:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.37.182 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1064499598 172.21.37.182 (Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:19:58 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:19:58 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123140 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > Here is a question: Is Aragorn's willing surrender of his life suicide, > or is it taking the Gift as it was offered to men by Eru. Men are doomed > to die and not be recycled in Arda. So men can go gracefully or not > gracefully, but go they will. Are men who held on to the bitter end > fighting death with every fibre of their being subject to some kind of > punishment for their willfullness and stubborness? I don't think this is suicide. Suicide is a desperate, aggressive act of destruction whereas what Aragorn did was more comparable to how sometimes an old person will die only a short while after his or her spouse dies. -JJ ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:50:12 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <3F72F80F.7B4D35B3@1.au> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123123 "Jussi Jaatinen" <1@1.au> wrote in message news:3F72F80F.7B4D35B3@1.au... > > > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > > Here is a question: Is Aragorn's willing surrender of his life suicide, > > or is it taking the Gift as it was offered to men by Eru. Men are doomed > > to die and not be recycled in Arda. So men can go gracefully or not > > gracefully, but go they will. Are men who held on to the bitter end > > fighting death with every fibre of their being subject to some kind of > > punishment for their willfullness and stubborness? > > I don't think this is suicide. Suicide is a desperate, aggressive act of > destruction whereas what Aragorn did was more comparable to how > sometimes an old person will die only a short while after his or her > spouse dies. > Fighting and fearing death was the sin in ME. It was a Gift to be welcomed. imho. T.A. ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20030924145241.12300.00000740@mb-m20.aol.com> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Lines: 43 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:35:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.187.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1064532937 162.83.187.51 (Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:35:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:35:37 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123203 wrote in message news:bktgbj$1d1d$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > A Tsar Is Born wrote: > > : "Russ" wrote in message > : news:20030924145241.12300.00000740@mb-m20.aol.com... > :> >Yes, but there is no Fall in Tolkien's Creation. > :> >That just happens to be their fate. > :> > > :> >Or did I miss something? > :> > :> Uh, yes. The Fall of Man is a big concept in Tolkien's writings. > > : In THIS world, yes. > : But when do they fall in Arda? > > : Tsar P > > > When they chose to listen to Morgoth rather than Eru. This > is described in the 'Tale of Adanel', which can be found > towards the end of 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' in > Morgoth's Ring. Tolkien seemed to be uncomfortable discussing > the Fall in any detail. Page 354 of Morgoth's Ring has this > interesting note > "Query: Is it not right to make Andreth refuse to discuss > any traditions or legends of the 'Fall'? Already it is > (if inevitably) too like a parody of Christianity. Any > legend of the Fall would make it completely so?" > In a letter he says > "The first fall of Man, for reasons explained, nowhere > appears - That explains why I never found any reference to it (other than implicit) and did not believe it figured in JRRT's mythology. But I believe he did NOT object to C.S. Lewis's parodies of it in Perelandra and Narnia. Tsar Parmathule ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 26 Sep 2003 01:33:16 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m27) Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Message-ID: <20030925213316.08626.00000895@mb-m27.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123190 In article , "A Tsar Is Born" writes: >"Russ" wrote in message >news:20030924145241.12300.00000740@mb-m20.aol.com... >> >Yes, but there is no Fall in Tolkien's Creation. >> >That just happens to be their fate. >> > >> >Or did I miss something? >> >> Uh, yes. The Fall of Man is a big concept in Tolkien's writings. > >In THIS world, yes. >But when do they fall in Arda? Several (or many) generations before they arrived in Beleriand. Russ "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor" ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:29:03 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123208 In article in rec.arts.books.tolkien, wrote: >Stan Brown wrote: >: Were not Elves and men equally part of the Second Theme of the >: Music? > >The Elves and men were part of the Third Theme. Thanks for the correction and the citation. While "second" was undoubtedly a mistake, that wasn't actually my main point. My main point was that, IMHO, Elves and Men were equally part of the same theme of Ilúvatar -- or would have been, except for Arda Marred. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Message-ID: <3F73EF86.219C9CC6@1.au> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <3F72F80F.7B4D35B3@1.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:55:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.37.182 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1064562950 172.21.37.182 (Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:55:50 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:55:50 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news1.spb.su!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123207 Graham Lockwood wrote: > How is injecting one's self with drugs to > make you fall asleep and die in your sleep any different from "willing" > one's self to die? To me, the willfull laying down of life by the > Numenoreans was a much more purposefull act than simply giving up the will > to live and withering away. I agree that it is more purposeful, although sometimes this "withering away" can happen in the space of just a few weeks. I of course don't know if Numenorean teens would occasionally "take the Gift" when their girlfriends left them. This "Gift" is IMO associated with a point in time when a person realizes his life is over and he doesn't have much left to accomplish, and that his physical lifespan is nearing its end. He's also tired with life and already yearns to meet his maker. (this is a slightly depressing thread!) -JJ ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:48:04 -0700 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <3F72F80F.7B4D35B3@1.au> <3F73EF86.219C9CC6@1.au> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c108.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123215 In article <3F73EF86.219C9CC6@1.au>, Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> wrote: > Graham Lockwood wrote: > > > How is injecting one's self with drugs to > > make you fall asleep and die in your sleep any different from "willing" > > one's self to die? To me, the willfull laying down of life by the > > Numenoreans was a much more purposefull act than simply giving up the will > > to live and withering away. > > I agree that it is more purposeful, although sometimes this "withering > away" can happen in the space of just a few weeks. I of course don't dont expect a clean definition if human life is important this should be an inherently difficult decision its a question extremely ill patients and their doctors have to deal with at what point is it better to accept the inevitablity and death and allow the disease to progress unchecked and when is it better to try to cure it? in a terminal situation is it better to prescribe a possibly fatal dose of painkillers or to avoid any chance of accidentally killing the patient? does it change if the patient is self adminstering the drugs or a nurse or a doctor? i suppose it comes down to whether you are extending life or just delaying death > (this is a slightly depressing thread!) a depressing joke is to point out that good health is merely the slowest rate of dying ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <3F72F80F.7B4D35B3@1.au> <3F73EF86.219C9CC6@1.au> Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:11:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.165.21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1064689863 162.83.165.21 (Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:11:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:11:03 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123255 "Graham Lockwood" wrote in message news:BB99EE2B.DE87%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDotOrg@IgnoreThis.AndThis... > Jussi Jaatinen said: > > (this is a slightly depressing thread!) > > Well, LotR is a slightly depressing book... Only if you ignore the happy good-triumphs-over-evil story and pay attention to certain subtexts and back-stories ... and on rabt, of course, you are interacting with obsessive payers of attention to subtexts and back-stories. (Who else would be here?) Tsar Parmathule ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:43:58 -0700 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> <3F72F80F.7B4D35B3@1.au> <3F73EF86.219C9CC6@1.au> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c139.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123308 In article , "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > "Graham Lockwood" wrote in > message > news:BB99EE2B.DE87%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDotOrg@IgnoreThis.AndThis... > > Jussi Jaatinen said: > > > (this is a slightly depressing thread!) > > > > Well, LotR is a slightly depressing book... > > Only if you ignore the happy good-triumphs-over-evil story and pay attention > to certain subtexts and back-stories ... and on rabt, of course, you are > interacting with obsessive payers of attention to subtexts and back-stories. > (Who else would be here?) jrrt often wrote of teh -long defeat- that is that eventually arda would be destroyed by forces of evil that it was transient and imperfect and would become more imperfect with time so if you look only within arda as elves did because they had no knowledge they would survice its end then it is depressing ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Interpretation Question Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:45:27 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3f7851ef.531326547@news.compuserve.com> References: <8y7cb.153$DX.89@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-ney-vty7.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1064850577 26209 216.192.72.7 (29 Sep 2003 15:49:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:49:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!63.218.45.10.MISMATCH!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!38.144.126.70.MISMATCH!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:123679 On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:49:16 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: >gracefully, but go they will. Are men who held on to the bitter end >fighting death with every fibre of their being subject to some kind of >punishment for their willfullness and stubborness? Yep: the punishment is senility, pain, and all that nasty stuff that accompanies a long slow death. Unfortunately, their families/caretakers may suffer even more than those who are dying. Jim Deutch -- "Education is like a communicable sexual disease: it disqualifies you from certain jobs, and you have the urge to pass it on." - Terry Pratchett