From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Tolkien and how to think about death. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1062205448 24.62.143.251 (Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:04:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:04:08 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:04:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121526 One if the valuable things about reading Tolkien is that his writings have helped me focus on the matter of death. I am recently entered into by 68-th year and I have fewer years in front of me than behind me. So how to think about this matter. There are two ways. The Stoic/Epicurean way which is to regard death as a termination of physical life. And that is the end of it. There is no persistent spirit which needs a new home and context. Think of it as recycling. The plants in your garden grow from seed, they ripen, they are sown, plowed under and rot. No big deal. What is to be frightened about? Nothing really. But this is nothing beyond it either. It is a comforting, but barren way of looking at matters. On the other hand if the fea goes on (and there is no empirical evidence to support this) you either have a succession of re-incarnations back into the world (a serial repetition) or the human fea goes on to something totally different. The problem with Elven immortality is that it is a kind of rcycling. When all is said and done it is a case of go back Jack and do it again. On the other hand if death is a step on a journey to something completely different (and who knows what that might be) it is a sure fire escape from potential boredome. Has anyone ever considered that Elves might get tired of all that recycling after a while. Since it is not their Doom to go on to something Greater, what relief is there for them? Do they cease to exist at some point? In that case it is the first scenario (ending of all) but just deferred. So the only difference between an Elf and a Man with no future is how long it takes him to go to nullity. Looked at in this way, Elven immortality is not all that great a deal. And Human immortality is. Bob Kolker ###### Lines: 14 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 30 Aug 2003 01:17:22 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Message-ID: <20030829211722.22079.00000237@mb-m04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121538 Oh Boknoy's Mom when I can, I'll lie with you you understand, When you left me there I wrung my hands, I was strong enough to be your man. You lie'd to me, I understand. Promise me, I understand. Cuz I'm strong enough to be your man. Lie with me, C'mon I'll be your man. ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:45:15 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121544 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:cKS3b.303660$uu5.65153@sccrnsc04... > I am recently entered into > by 68-th year and I have fewer years in front of me than behind me. So > how to think about this matter. It's more depressing when you think of it in terms of birthday cakes. We only get 80 if we're lucky. 80 freaking birthday cakes. That's not a lot! Walk into a good sized bakery and there's your life measured in cake. I want more cake, damn-it! > Has anyone ever considered that Elves might get tired of all that > recycling after a while. Since it is not their Doom to go on to > something Greater, what relief is there for them? Do they cease to exist > at some point? In that case it is the first scenario (ending of all) but > just deferred. So the only difference between an Elf and a Man with no > future is how long it takes him to go to nullity. Looked at in this way, > Elven immortality is not all that great a deal. And Human immortality is. > That's why human death was called a Gift from Eru. The elves knew they were screwed. Tolkien did write about this but I don't have the exact pointers for you. Morgoths Ring has a bunch of stuff scattered through it on how the Eldar looked at their immortality. T.A. ###### From: wrob Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:33:24 -0400 Lines: 55 Message-ID: <3F501AC8.4B2743BA@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZU0ShZ/W717vfWr3fyJunisDfuChpDyYHhcCDoyiQT3cUV09VTZLe5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2003 03:28:28 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121506 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > One if the valuable things about reading Tolkien is that his writings > have helped me focus on the matter of death. I am recently entered into > by 68-th year and I have fewer years in front of me than behind me. So > how to think about this matter. Hey, don't remind me. I'm only gonna be 25 for another few months...!! :,-( I think Tolkien's description of Elves being bound to the world and ceasing to exist with it, vs. presumed human immortality, is actual rather powerful. Unfortunately this is probably one of the things Tolkien went back and tried to meddle with in an ill-fated attempt to make the legend more compatible with RL history of religion. But that doesn't mean we can't create our own legends. In Tolkien's myth, elves are distinguished from humans primarily by their spirit (fea) being tightly bound to the body, so that they "live in both worlds at once"... this presumably allows them to dwell in Valinor, where the mystical energy of the Valar sustains their spiritual connection to their bodies (which are only somewhat less imperfect than those of humans) and preserves their physical form. Whereas humans, being loosely bound to their spirits, are less aware of the spirit world imagined by Tolkien as the repository for divine interaction in his subcreation, since their spirits are not bound to their bodies or to the world and would quickly "burn up" in Valinor, like a moth too close to the flame, because time flies so quickly there that their spirit would flee their body even faster. Humans are clearly not intended to remain spiritually attached to their bodies even in the absence of physical decay. In real life, I'm comforted by that version of the epiphenominal notion that holds that all consciousness is in fact a mere attribute of our existence, and that our actual decisions and choices are made by our physical minds... which are in turn attributes of the single individual THing that is the universe we live in. As someone said on another thread, God knows what we will do with our lives because he has foreseen it, but it is up to our (physical) selves to make those decisions. Our consciousness is, in this theory a simple attribute of all physical existence, and the decisions we make are themselves physical manifestations of a process that only God can see in 4D. We have free will for the simple reason that our choices are not constrained when we make them. Bottom line is, I guess this implies that when we die we become "one with the universe"... after all, if we exist that proves we are conscious, otherwise there'd be nothing to observe our existence, so our consciousness shouldn't just blink out just because our thoughts, personality, etc. does. The matter and energy that made up our minds should endure. It seems bleak until you think that the conscious part of ourselves is just an observer, incapable of doing anything other than taking in what is happening at a particular point in space-time... where am I going with this? Oh well ... -BER ###### Message-ID: <3F50B4A2.83465AF2@acm.org> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:28:53 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.71 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1062283599 29699 207.199.164.71 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121672 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > One if the valuable things about reading Tolkien is that his writings > have helped me focus on the matter of death. Tolkien in one of the letters (Letters is on the shelf beside me, but it would take me some time to look up which one) says LOTR "is only incidentally about Good and Evil, and mainly about Death." My mind comes back to gnaw at that thought now and then. I see him developing thoughts about Death mostly in the relationship between Elves, Men, and their dooms. The plot speaks to me more of other themes that touch on Death only peripherally - willingness to put noble goal above fear of death and things like that. LOTR has considerations of how Death is different for Hobbits, Men, and Maia, but doesn't really deal with Death for Elves. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: 30 Aug 2003 12:38:39 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 32 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0308301138.3c05bca1@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.34.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1062272321 3918 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2003 19:38:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2003 19:38:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121657 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:... [much snippage] > Has anyone ever considered that Elves might get tired of all that > recycling after a while. Since it is not their Doom to go on to > something Greater, what relief is there for them? Do they cease to exist > at some point? In that case it is the first scenario (ending of all) but > just deferred. So the only difference between an Elf and a Man with no > future is how long it takes him to go to nullity. Looked at in this way, > Elven immortality is not all that great a deal. And Human immortality is. > > Bob Kolker I used to look at the Elves' condition this way, but I can't reconcile it with the Eru from the Ainulindale who appreciates beautiful, glorious things. IMO, Tolkien's stories are not just talking about death/deathlessness when they delve into these matters, but faith as well. Neither the Elves nor the Men in T's universe know their fates for certain...but the sign of a good Man (e.g. Aragorn at the time of his death) or Elf (e.g. Finrod's comments in the Athrabeth) is one that has faith in Eru that He purposes something good in the long run. So, I don't believe that the Elves go to nullity. I think that both groups of Children will be present in the Re-making of Arda. I think it is the Children's task in the meantime to accept and bear our respective states of being with grace and patience. I do think it must be terribly wearying for the Elves, even in Valinor, by now. But that is their burden, and we humans have the burden of the ever present spectre of a soon-to-come death hanging over us, with all the attendant problems of "not quite fitting in on Earth" that we also have to deal with. I think it was wrob that touched on the "not quite fitting in" thing in another post on this thread, so I won't go all into it again. :) ###### From: Hasdrubal Hamilcar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. References: <3F50B4A2.83465AF2@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <3F50B4A2.83465AF2@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:08:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1062284888 63.139.135.29 (Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:08:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:08:08 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121616 Glenn Holliday wrote: > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > >>One if the valuable things about reading Tolkien is that his writings >>have helped me focus on the matter of death. > > > Tolkien in one of the letters (Letters is on the shelf beside me, > but it would take me some time to look up which one) says LOTR > "is only incidentally about Good and Evil, and mainly about Death." > My mind comes back to gnaw at that thought now and then. > > I see him developing thoughts about Death mostly in the > relationship between Elves, Men, and their dooms. The plot > speaks to me more of other themes that touch on Death only > peripherally - willingness to put noble goal above fear of > death and things like that. LOTR has considerations of > how Death is different for Hobbits, Men, and Maia, > but doesn't really deal with Death for Elves. > It even has a suicide bumbler, gollum. Hasan ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:26:58 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3F50B4A2.83465AF2@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121655 In article <3F50B4A2.83465AF2@acm.org> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Glenn Holliday wrote: >Tolkien in one of the letters (Letters is on the shelf beside me, >but it would take me some time to look up which one) says LOTR >"is only incidentally about Good and Evil, and mainly about Death." Is this the bit you mean? It's from Letter 203 (to Herbert Schiro, 17 November 1957): "That there is no allegory does not, of course, say there is no applicability. There always is. And since I have not made the struggle wholly unequivocal: sloth and stupidity among hobbits, pride and [illegible] among Elves, grudge and greed in Dwarf-hearts, and folly and wickedness among the ?Kings of Men?, and treachery and power-lust even among the ?Wizards?, there is I suppose applicability in my story to present times. But I should say, if asked, the tale is not really about Power and Dominion: that only sets the wheels going; it is about Death and the desire for deathlessness. Which is hardly more than to say it is a tale written by a Man!" -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Message-ID: <3F51D427.D087A4ED@acm.org> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:55:37 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. References: <3F50B4A2.83465AF2@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.26 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1062327310 30239 207.199.164.26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121673 Stan Brown wrote: > > In article <3F50B4A2.83465AF2@acm.org> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, > Glenn Holliday wrote: > >Tolkien in one of the letters (Letters is on the shelf beside me, > >but it would take me some time to look up which one) says LOTR > >"is only incidentally about Good and Evil, and mainly about Death." > > Is this the bit you mean? It's from Letter 203 (to Herbert Schiro, > 17 November 1957): > > ...But I should say, if > asked, the tale is not really about Power and Dominion: that only > sets the wheels going; it is about Death and the desire for > deathlessness. Which is hardly more than to say it is a tale written > by a Man!" Thanks very much Stan. I'm pretty sure I'm remembering a different one. I'll have to dig into the Letters this weekend and see if I'm mis-remembering. This is why it would be really nice for the Tolkien estate to permit a full-text index project. The index of Letters is very sparse. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:10:56 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3F50B4A2.83465AF2@acm.org> <3F51D427.D087A4ED@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121694 In article <3F51D427.D087A4ED@acm.org> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Glenn Holliday wrote: >Stan Brown wrote: >> >> In article <3F50B4A2.83465AF2@acm.org> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, >> Glenn Holliday wrote: >> >Tolkien in one of the letters (Letters is on the shelf beside me, >> >but it would take me some time to look up which one) says LOTR >> >"is only incidentally about Good and Evil, and mainly about Death." >> >> Is this the bit you mean? It's from Letter 203 (to Herbert Schiro, >> 17 November 1957): >> >> ...But I should say, if >> asked, the tale is not really about Power and Dominion: that only >> sets the wheels going; it is about Death and the desire for >> deathlessness. Which is hardly more than to say it is a tale written >> by a Man!" > >Thanks very much Stan. I'm pretty sure I'm remembering a >different one. Oh well. :-) I grepped my copy for "good and evil" (case blind) and that was the most relevant quote I found. But of course I wouldn't have picked up on slightly different words. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. From: HAL References: Organization: * Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/06.07.17 Lines: 7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:58:15 EDT Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:58:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!fe06.atl2.webusenet.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121918 Valars, Maiar, and Elves who lived on Arda were immortal and experienced paradise in the Undying Lands of Valinor. I believe I read somewhere that other races i.e., Men, Hobbits, Dwarves would experience immortality and paradise after death in heaven with Iluvatar. HAL ###### From: sir.blubber@bluewin.ch (GdB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: 3 Sep 2003 02:44:01 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.65.184.250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1062582242 10795 127.0.0.1 (3 Sep 2003 09:44:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Sep 2003 09:44:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:122017 I think the citation of Tolkien's letter above really is the key to understanding of what Middle Earth is about. In the two different races of the children of Eru, we see two possibillities how to cope with the problem of the meaning of life. Elves, being immortal under normal circumstances, must be attached to the earth, as they will live their lives there until the and of the earth. That's why they want to preserve thing as they are as much as possible. Think about some of the artefacts they made: the Silmarils, that kept the light of the trees (treasured so high that all the wars in the first era is about them), the (first) elessar, that shows the things as they would have been without Mordor's evil deeds), the three elven rings (which main power was to preserve things as they were, as shown in Lothorien and Rivendell), the palantiri (that could also see in the past (Gandalf says he would like the palantir, to see Feanor). In an ever changing world, as ME is, the elves must fail. Clinging to their possessions causes the biggest disasters (Thingol causes the downfall of Doriath because he sticks to the Silmaril, the people of Turgon are killed, because they cling to their beautiful town of Gondolin against the warnings of Ulmo, etc,etc.). The gift to men must be understood as the freeing of men from the circles of the world. Because they know they will die, it makes no sense to stick to earthly richness. So men's death makes them free. It is however the same sticking to earthly welness that makes death a kind of punishment in their eyes. That is the drama of Numenor. See the difference with the way Aragorn dies, giving up life voluntarely. As Tolkien knew of course very well, we live in an ever changing world now. The elves are gone, there is no place for them any more, and it is now to men to give the right answer on the question of death. If we don't, well, Numenor, I would say. There is some depressing in the future of ME, and I think Tolkien felt likewise about our real world. GdB ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1062583188 24.62.143.251 (Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:59:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:59:48 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:59:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121933 GdB wrote: > kind of punishment in their eyes. That is the drama of Numenor. See > the difference with the way Aragorn dies, giving up life voluntarely. Aragorn knew he was doomed to die whatever he decided. He chose the most graceful moment to depart. That fact that he did not hang on to the bitter end, as some past Numenoreans did, is a measure of his trust in Eru's gift. The problem with humans (as opposed to Elves) is that they had no clear idea what their ultimate fate would be. For that reason they became afraid of dying and envied the immortals. After all, the immortals had Arda right in front of their eyes and the means of enjoying themselves in Arda (marred or not). So did humans. That is why humans felt put out (or most of them did) in having a finite life span. The humans, for the most part, never appreciated the Gift. The Elves and the Valor would be gone, when Arda was used up - and they knew it-. For them immortality was just stretching things out. The Elves understood their existence was ultimately futile, however long they lived. Men would have something new forever. The existence of Man by grace of Eru was open-ended. Bob Kolker ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. From: HAL References: Organization: * Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/06.07.17 Lines: 10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:59:04 EDT Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:59:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!fe05.atl2.webusenet.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:121916 > the palantiri (that could also see> in the past (Gandalf says he would like the palantir, to see Feanor). > While not an Istari (wizard) at the time of Feanor, Gandalf was still a Maia and alive during the time of Feanor. I can't see why Gandalf never knew or met Feanor in Valinor. HAL ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: 3 Sep 2003 21:40:53 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 117-moo-7.acn.waw.pl (62.121.94.117) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1062625253 16540005 62.121.94.117 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!117-moo-7.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:122124 On 03 wrz 2003, "Morgil" scribbled loosely: >> The passage I quoted previously seems to me not to refer to the Last >> Battle, but rather to the current state, thus "the...Fathers...return >> to live" rather than "will return to live". If you have a cite that >> contradicts my understanding, I'd be very interested. > > Nope, nothing comes to mind. But to me it seems obvious > it's about what will happen after the Last Battle. It doesn't to me. -- Pradera --- 'Ronald Reagan once said that a great leader is simply an average man who surrounds himself with the best. That's why I never vote Republican' Scott Summers, 'Cyclops' http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/ ###### Message-ID: <3F568162.6CCFF354@acm.org> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:03:49 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.141 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1062633793 32063 207.199.164.141 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:122130 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > The humans, for the most part, never appreciated the Gift. The Elves and > the Valor would be gone, when Arda was used up - and they knew it-. For > them immortality was just stretching things out. The Elves understood > their existence was ultimately futile, however long they lived. Men > would have something new forever. The existence of Man by grace of Eru > was open-ended. Were the Elves really so ultimately pessimistic? The Light Elves, when not acting out under the Oath of Feanor, had a very trusting relationship with the Valar. The Valar seem to have a deep confidence that the end of Arda will not be the end of existence. Was there no Elvish philosopher taking that as a reason for optimism? -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: bibleboy_101@shaw.ca (Anadriel) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: 3 Sep 2003 21:32:30 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5a4aaf6c.0309032032.358c7d21@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1062649951 14793 127.0.0.1 (4 Sep 2003 04:32:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 2003 04:32:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:122119 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:... > One if the valuable things about reading Tolkien is that his writings > have helped me focus on the matter of death. I am recently entered into > by 68-th year and I have fewer years in front of me than behind me. So > how to think about this matter. > > There are two ways. The Stoic/Epicurean way which is to regard death as > a termination of physical life. And that is the end of it. There is no > persistent spirit which needs a new home and context. Think of it as > recycling. The plants in your garden grow from seed, they ripen, they > are sown, plowed under and rot. No big deal. What is to be frightened > about? Nothing really. But this is nothing beyond it either. It is a > comforting, but barren way of looking at matters. > > On the other hand if the fea goes on (and there is no empirical evidence > to support this) you either have a succession of re-incarnations back > into the world (a serial repetition) or the human fea goes on to > something totally different. The problem with Elven immortality is that > it is a kind of rcycling. When all is said and done it is a case of go > back Jack and do it again. On the other hand if death is a step on a > journey to something completely different (and who knows what that might > be) it is a sure fire escape from potential boredome. > > Has anyone ever considered that Elves might get tired of all that > recycling after a while. Since it is not their Doom to go on to > something Greater, what relief is there for them? Do they cease to exist > at some point? In that case it is the first scenario (ending of all) but > just deferred. So the only difference between an Elf and a Man with no > future is how long it takes him to go to nullity. Looked at in this way, > Elven immortality is not all that great a deal. And Human immortality is. > > Bob Kolker Well, the elves when they die go to the Halls of Mandos and wait the Re-Making of Arda, I think. I don't suppose Elves would get easily bored with the same things, unlike Men. Men were given a wish to better themselves, to go forth into the unknown. ###### From: sir.blubber@bluewin.ch (GdB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: 3 Sep 2003 22:49:35 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.65.184.250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1062654578 19223 127.0.0.1 (4 Sep 2003 05:49:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 2003 05:49:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:122115 HAL wrote in message news:... > > the palantiri (that could also see> in the past (Gandalf says he would > like the palantir, to see Feanor). > > (Of course I meant to say 'he would like _to_use_ the palantir'... And I meant 'without Morgoth's evil deeds'... I think faster then I type...) GdB > While not an Istari (wizard) at the time of Feanor, Gandalf was still a > Maia and alive during the time of Feanor. I can't see why Gandalf never > knew or met Feanor in Valinor. You understood me wrong, I just wanted to stress the point that one could also see in the past with the palantiri, so they also serve the aim of keeping the past alife (in this case as an image), as the elessar and the three rings. Of course Gandalf was already there in Valinor (Olorin), I even think (no books here) that he says he would like to see Feanor _again_, so you are completely right. > Were the Elves really so ultimately pessimistic? The Light Elves, > when not acting out under the Oath of Feanor, had a very > trusting relationship with the Valar. The Valar seem to have > a deep confidence that the end of Arda will not be the end of > existence. Was there no Elvish philosopher taking that as a > reason for optimism? None of the stories in the Silmarillion is about the elves that stayed in Valinor. There is not much interesting to tell about a life in eternal bliss. But the lifes of the Noldor were worth to write many songs, bought with lots of sorrow... But remember that Arda was meant to be a beautiful place as a whole, not just Valinor. That the rest of Arda (=ME,= the place where we live now) is slowly decaying, is quite tragically, isn't it? Valinor is not of this world anymore. If there is some elf left in this world, he will be mourning about the beautiful places that once were, but never will be anymore: Menegroth, Gondolin, Lothorien... Man is on his own now, and should provide the right answer to the problem of death. I think Tolkien gave such an answer, for those willing to find it. Living this answer is another thing... GdB ###### From: joeru Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 23:47:50 +0300 Organization: Song Networks Internet Services Lines: 42 Message-ID: <678flvgv5mgqdk8p77d5mgp4u8ud5n5tfv@4ax.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mb-u12ip037.mbnet.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news1.songnet.fi 1062708034 12837 194.100.167.46 (4 Sep 2003 20:40:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@songnet.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 2003 20:40:34 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!news1.songnet.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:122239 On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:57:44 -0600, Michelle J. Haines wrote: >In article , >morestelx@hotmail.com says... >> >> "Michelle J. Haines" kirjoitti >> viestissä:MPG.19bf157bce1aac8298a1a9@news.Qwest.net... >> >> > "They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live >> > again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of >> > whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that >> > kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were as Khazad- >> > dum." >> >> This was a prophesy of something that was going to >> happen only after the Last Battle. The Reappearing >> Durins were something different. > >Their fate after death seems to be referred to in the previous >sentences: > >"For they say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for >them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he >declared to their Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and >give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part >shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after >the Last Battle." I was always under the impression that the "them" in the above quotation meant the Dwarven race in whole, not just the Seven Fathers. Considering the previous sentence, it makes more sense: "Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief." >Michelle >Flutist -- joeru "The point of a sword is a reality that well dispels fantasies." ###### From: bibleboy_101@shaw.ca (Anadriel) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien and how to think about death. Date: 4 Sep 2003 17:33:34 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5a4aaf6c.0309041633.465c435f@posting.google.com> References: <5a4aaf6c.0309032032.358c7d21@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1062722014 23535 127.0.0.1 (5 Sep 2003 00:33:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Sep 2003 00:33:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:122233 AC wrote in message news:... > On 3 Sep 2003 21:32:30 -0700, > Anadriel wrote: > > > > Well, the elves when they die go to the Halls of Mandos and wait the > > Re-Making of Arda, I think. I don't suppose Elves would get easily > > bored with the same things, unlike Men. Men were given a wish to > > better themselves, to go forth into the unknown. > > Not quite right. Elves are re-embodied after a period of time in Mandos. > That is why Tolkien referred to Elvish immortality as "serial immortality". > Thus the Glorifindel of Imaldris is the same Elf as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Cool, I din't know that.