Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 26 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1060090334 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:32:14 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:32:14 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: ylOXa-21863-n5-3579@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 9e771ce4 78e19224 d4526bfe fdbdafc7 877f0e8e Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:32:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120222 Quoth conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) in article <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com>: > In addition to the passage Steuard quoted I recall a section from > People's of Middle Earth which mentions that some of the Eastern > houses may have turned to evil. I couldn't find a quotation of the > passage on google, but I did find a reference to it... PoME, page > 323, note 28. If you cite it, quotes will come. :) The reference is to "Of Dwarves and Men", not surprisingly, and note 28 in the text refers to the sentence "...[these good Men] at first had regarded the Dwarves askance, fearing that they were under the Shadow (as they said)." The note itself reads: "For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. [This was a later pencilled note. On the previous page of the typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention (p. 301) of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: 'Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.']" So the "scattered evil Dwarves" idea seems to have been reasonably firmly planted in Tolkien's mind. Steuard Jensen ###### From: NTuser_Man@msn.com (Terry) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) Date: 5 Aug 2003 11:56:31 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 30 Message-ID: <55ea4867.0308051056.1241b5fa@posting.google.com> References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 143.166.226.18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1060109792 20735 127.0.0.1 (5 Aug 2003 18:56:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2003 18:56:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120258 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:... > Quoth conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) in article > <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com>: > > In addition to the passage Steuard quoted I recall a section from > > People's of Middle Earth which mentions that some of the Eastern > > houses may have turned to evil. I couldn't find a quotation of the > > passage on google, but I did find a reference to it... PoME, page > > 323, note 28. > > If you cite it, quotes will come. :) The reference is to "Of Dwarves > and Men", not surprisingly, and note 28 in the text refers to the > sentence "...[these good Men] at first had regarded the Dwarves > askance, fearing that they were under the Shadow (as they said)." The > note itself reads: > > "For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. > [This was a later pencilled note. On the previous page of the > typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of > its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention > (p. 301) of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: > 'Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the > far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the > Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.']" > > So the "scattered evil Dwarves" idea seems to have been reasonably > firmly planted in Tolkien's mind. Perhaps they were illegitimate children of Durin during his early wifeless days? --Terry ###### From: jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) Date: 5 Aug 2003 14:17:15 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 3 Message-ID: <51431c0.0308051317.3ca499df@posting.google.com> References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.55.10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1060118236 29296 127.0.0.1 (5 Aug 2003 21:17:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2003 21:17:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120247 Also, both sides had peoples of all kinds at the battle of the last alliance, except elves who fought only for the good side. I guess that requires evil dwarves (and hobbits?). ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> <51431c0.0308051317.3ca499df@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1060118838 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:27:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:27:18 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: WiVXa-25869-n5-4379@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 2fa1d254 178ec523 ec31fde3 6f548f4c 4b20bf46 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:27:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120219 Quoth jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) in article <51431c0.0308051317.3ca499df@posting.google.com>: > Also, both sides had peoples of all kinds at the battle of the last > alliance, except elves who fought only for the good side. I guess > that requires evil dwarves (and hobbits?). Great minds think alike. :) That was, in fact, the "passage that Steuard quoted", as Conrad said in his earlier message: I quoted the relevant passage from "Of the Rings of Power" in Silm., which actually mentions Dwarves explicitly. As for hobbits, I suspect that they could get out of that implication on a technicality as being just a subgroup of the human race (which was clearly already split). However, as others have pointed out, a literal reading of that passage would imply seemingly ridiculous conclusions, like dragons and trolls fighting alongside Elendil and Gil-galad. (I guess I _could_ imagine that, but certainly not easily!) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Chocoholic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:02:30 -0400 Organization: NOT! Message-ID: References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> <51431c0.0308051317.3ca499df@posting.google.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120235 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:WiVXa.46$n5.4378@news.uchicago.edu... > Quoth jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) in article > <51431c0.0308051317.3ca499df@posting.google.com>: > > Also, both sides had peoples of all kinds at the battle of the last > > alliance, except elves who fought only for the good side. I guess > > that requires evil dwarves (and hobbits?). > > Great minds think alike. :) That was, in fact, the "passage that > Steuard quoted", as Conrad said in his earlier message: I quoted the > relevant passage from "Of the Rings of Power" in Silm., which actually > mentions Dwarves explicitly. > > As for hobbits, I suspect that they could get out of that implication > on a technicality as being just a subgroup of the human race (which > was clearly already split). However, as others have pointed out, a > literal reading of that passage would imply seemingly ridiculous > conclusions, like dragons and trolls fighting alongside Elendil and > Gil-galad. (I guess I _could_ imagine that, but certainly not > easily!) They don't have to be 'for' Elendil & Gil-galad to be against Sauron. With Sauron himself contained in Mordor, and then Barad-dur itself, there may well have been some traditionally 'evil' creatures fighting to insure their independence, even if that independence was just the right to live their unguided predatory lives -- not necessarily 'join the good guys'. And they wouldn't have to join the ranks of the 'good guys' armies to fight. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <51431c0.0308051317.3ca499df@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 33 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1060187886 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:38:06 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:38:06 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: O9aYa-3348-%4-1341@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: c8152b8a bd073045 a03d64b9 c88351f9 fb7cfc1a Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:38:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120277 Quoth "Chocoholic" in article : > "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > Quoth jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry): > > > Also, both sides had peoples of all kinds at the battle of the > > > last alliance, except elves who fought only for the good side. > > > I guess that requires evil dwarves (and hobbits?). > > However, as others have pointed out, a literal reading of that > > passage would imply seemingly ridiculous conclusions, like dragons > > and trolls fighting alongside Elendil and Gil-galad. > They don't have to be 'for' Elendil & Gil-galad to be against > Sauron. With Sauron himself contained in Mordor, and then Barad-dur > itself, there may well have been some traditionally 'evil' creatures > fighting to insure their independence, even if that independence was > just the right to live their unguided predatory lives -- not > necessarily 'join the good guys'. And they wouldn't have to join the > ranks of the 'good guys' armies to fight. That's a good point, and it might be the best resolution to the apparent oddity. On the other hand, it does rely on a less than strict reading of the source text: the phrase "some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host" certainly makes it sound like each side was more or less a single, coordinated army. I don't know that loosening the reading to allow multiple independent "hosts" on each side is any more or less natural than loosening it to allow exceptions to "every kind". Having said that, I think your solution stays closer to the spirit of the passage than the alternative, so I'll go with it. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Matthew Bladen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:52:09 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-132-151-140.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: titan.btinternet.com 1060206729 8574 81.132.151.140 (6 Aug 2003 21:52:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:52:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120368 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:ylOXa.38$n5.3498@news.uchicago.edu... [snip] > So the "scattered evil Dwarves" idea seems to have been reasonably > firmly planted in Tolkien's mind. And of course the Dwarves were wholly evil when Tolkien first introduced them into the legendarium (in the outline for Gilfanon's Tale in HoME 1 they are associated with goblins; cf. also the actions of the Dwarves in the Tale of the Nauglafring in HoME 2). The description of them in the Quenta Noldorinwa (1930) is distinctly cool, but their origin and eventual 'character' emerged gradually from that point. I believe that the 'discovery' of Thorin and Company in The Hobbit played a crucial role in changing Tolkien's conception of the Dwarves. As I observed earlier, Durin's Folk are described as being particularly (unusually?) altruistic for Dwarves. The classic statement comes from The Hobbit: There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much. -- The Hobbit chapter 12, 'Inside Information' It is easy to forget that much of what we 'know' about the Dwarves actually pertains strictly only to Durin's Folk, and it is not hard to imagine that in other Houses the particularly Dwarvish failings of vengefulness and greed would lead them into evil of a sort. So the concept of evil (or at least calculating and mercenary) Dwarves was there from the start, and that Tolkien's later concept always included an awareness of what they could be like at their worst. -- Matthew ###### From: jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) Date: 7 Aug 2003 05:49:32 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 29 Message-ID: <51431c0.0308070449.5f9b3bcc@posting.google.com> References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.55.10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1060260574 3480 127.0.0.1 (7 Aug 2003 12:49:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 2003 12:49:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120423 > And of course the Dwarves were wholly evil when Tolkien first introduced > them > into the legendarium (in the outline for Gilfanon's Tale in HoME 1 they are > associated with goblins; cf. also the actions of the Dwarves in the Tale > of the Nauglafring in HoME 2). T This kind of anti-Khazadic horsecrap really ticks me off. The Dwarves *created* the "Nauglafring" and rightfully repossessed it from the elves who refused to pay. They would have won, too, without the conspiracy between Elves, Ents, and Beren. And the Elves were NOT evil? Most of the problems in Middle Earth were created by Elves (and later Humans) but Dwarves merely minded their own business and built things of great beauty. When Sauron regained power, the Elves did not do SHIT to fight him besides sending a company of archers to Helm's Deep. Oh wait, they didn't even really do that. They just hid their swishy elvish asses in Rivendell and Lorien and waited for Gimli and some Halflings would do the dirty work for them. Who reclaimed Erebor from Smaug? Dwarves. Who hindered those Dwarves? Elves. Who taught Sauron to make rings? Elves. Who spurned Sauron's diplomat? Dwarves. Helms' Deep: 42-41 ENOUGH SAID SAIL WEST, TREEHUGGERS!!!!!11 ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:50:53 -0700 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> <51431c0.0308070449.5f9b3bcc@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c131.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120422 > Who reclaimed Erebor from Smaug? Dwarves. a bowman from laketown ###### Message-ID: <3F326BEC.AE2EF53A@free.fr> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:10:43 +0000 From: "Edward J. Kloczko" Reply-To: ejk@free.fr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> <51431c0.0308070449.5f9b3bcc@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 35 Organization: Guest of ProXad - France NNTP-Posting-Date: 07 Aug 2003 15:09:15 MEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.147.76.18 X-Trace: 1060261755 news3-1.free.fr 1158 62.147.76.18:1463 X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!news3-1.free.fr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120453 jsberry a écrit: > > > And of course the Dwarves were wholly evil when Tolkien first introduced > > them > > into the legendarium (in the outline for Gilfanon's Tale in HoME 1 they are > > associated with goblins; cf. also the actions of the Dwarves in the Tale > > of the Nauglafring in HoME 2). T > > This kind of anti-Khazadic horsecrap really ticks me off. The Dwarves > *created* the "Nauglafring" and rightfully repossessed it from the > elves who refused to pay. They would have won, too, without the > conspiracy between Elves, Ents, and Beren. > > And the Elves were NOT evil? Most of the problems in Middle Earth > were created by Elves (and later Humans) but Dwarves merely minded > their own business and built things of great beauty. When Sauron > regained power, the Elves did not do SHIT to fight him besides sending > a company of archers to Helm's Deep. Oh wait, they didn't even really > do that. They just hid their swishy elvish asses in Rivendell and > Lorien and waited for Gimli and some Halflings would do the dirty work > for them. > > Who reclaimed Erebor from Smaug? Dwarves. > Who hindered those Dwarves? Elves. > > Who taught Sauron to make rings? Elves. > Who spurned Sauron's diplomat? Dwarves. > > Helms' Deep: 42-41 ENOUGH SAID > > SAIL WEST, TREEHUGGERS!!!!!11 A teenager Troll? ejk ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Evil Dwarves (was Re: about the rings) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:51:13 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3f2c2a9d@shknews01> <1178b6d1.0308050214.26c134d7@posting.google.com> <51431c0.0308070449.5f9b3bcc@posting.google.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:120391 "jsberry" wrote in message news:51431c0.0308070449.5f9b3bcc@posting.google.com... > > And the Elves were NOT evil? Most of the problems in Middle Earth > were created by Elves (and later Humans) but Dwarves merely minded > their own business and built things of great beauty. When Sauron > regained power, the Elves did not do SHIT to fight him besides sending > a company of archers to Helm's Deep. Oh wait, they didn't even really > do that. They just hid their swishy elvish asses in Rivendell and > Lorien and waited for Gimli and some Halflings would do the dirty work > for them. > > Who reclaimed Erebor from Smaug? Dwarves. > Who hindered those Dwarves? Elves. > > Who taught Sauron to make rings? Elves. > Who spurned Sauron's diplomat? Dwarves. > > Helms' Deep: 42-41 ENOUGH SAID > > SAIL WEST, TREEHUGGERS!!!!!11 HAHAHAHAHAAAA............ Nice! :-) T.A.