From: villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: LOTR magic and science Date: 18 May 2003 09:39:53 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.153.155.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053275994 16444 127.0.0.1 (18 May 2003 16:39:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 2003 16:39:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!newsfeed.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117391 My last few readings of LOTR gave me the impression that Tolkien was trying to question the magic and mythical explanation of events. For example, Saruman used something a modern reader would suspect was gunpowder, but the characters believed this was some new magic. The eruptions and smoke from Mount Doom were given a magical interpretation too. Sauron seemed more like a force of nature than a personality. It seemed that Tolkien was trying to show that the Silmarillion was mostly a myth instead of a history. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 16:50:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!69.22.128.15.MISMATCH!newsfeeder2.randori.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117377 On 18 May 2003 09:39:53 -0700, Bob wrote: > My last few readings of LOTR gave me the impression > that Tolkien was trying to question the magic and > mythical explanation of events. > For example, Saruman used something a modern reader > would suspect was gunpowder, but the characters believed > this was some new magic. The eruptions and smoke from > Mount Doom were given a magical interpretation too. > Sauron seemed more like a force of nature than a personality. > > It seemed that Tolkien was trying to show > that the Silmarillion was mostly a myth instead > of a history. I fail to see how Saruman's use of gunpowder would invalidate the Silmarillion. After all, the Noldor were portrayed as being masters of what might call "science". -- A. Clausen maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:10:31 -0700 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c31.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117386 In article <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com>, villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) wrote: > My last few readings of LOTR gave me the impression > that Tolkien was trying to question the magic and > mythical explanation of events. > For example, Saruman used something a modern reader > would suspect was gunpowder, but the characters believed > this was some new magic. The eruptions and smoke from > Mount Doom were given a magical interpretation too. > Sauron seemed more like a force of nature than a personality. arthur c clarkes quote that any sufficiently advanced science would appear to be magic i suppose magic could be considered altering reality without understanding the mechanism of the alteration so you press a button a magically room appears that magically takes you up and down while science could be considered alteration with understanding so that you understand about call buttons and electromechanical connections and cabling and elevator shafts the valar and maiar would understand just about everything other than elf and human psychology whether auron was a force of nature depends on whether you allow forces of nature to be intelligent carathras was a mountain but it was also presented as aware and malicious and enough material control to act on its malice reread the discussion in the pass under caranras aboiut whether the blizzard was natural or intentional ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87znljwk1h.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:57:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053323838 68.12.153.42 (Mon, 19 May 2003 01:57:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:57:18 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117395 villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) writes: > My last few readings of LOTR gave me the impression > that Tolkien was trying to question the magic and > mythical explanation of events. > For example, Saruman used something a modern reader > would suspect was gunpowder, but the characters believed > this was some new magic. The eruptions and smoke from > Mount Doom were given a magical interpretation too. > Sauron seemed more like a force of nature than a personality. > > It seemed that Tolkien was trying to show > that the Silmarillion was mostly a myth instead > of a history. Thank you. You have now provided the most crackpotted explanation of LotR ever. You are an inspiration to crack-pots everywhere. Jon Cast ###### From: villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science Date: 19 May 2003 05:18:23 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: <2ab17fda.0305190418.ee08d4c@posting.google.com> References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> <87znljwk1h.fsf@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.153.155.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053346703 2288 127.0.0.1 (19 May 2003 12:18:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2003 12:18:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117429 Jon Cast wrote in message news:<87znljwk1h.fsf@ou.edu>... > villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) writes: > > > My last few readings of LOTR gave me the impression > > that Tolkien was trying to question the magic and > > mythical explanation of events. > > For example, Saruman used something a modern reader > > would suspect was gunpowder, but the characters believed > > this was some new magic. The eruptions and smoke from > > Mount Doom were given a magical interpretation too. > > Sauron seemed more like a force of nature than a personality. > > > > It seemed that Tolkien was trying to show > > that the Silmarillion was mostly a myth instead > > of a history. > > Thank you. You have now provided the most crackpotted explanation of > LotR ever. You are an inspiration to crack-pots everywhere. > > Jon Cast do I win a prize? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> <87znljwk1h.fsf@ou.edu> <2ab17fda.0305190418.ee08d4c@posting.google.com> Reply-To: maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Lines: 42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Organization: http://www.randori.com Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:59:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!newsfeeder2.randori.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117408 On 19 May 2003 05:18:23 -0700, Bob wrote: > Jon Cast wrote in message news:<87znljwk1h.fsf@ou.edu>... >> villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) writes: >> >> > My last few readings of LOTR gave me the impression >> > that Tolkien was trying to question the magic and >> > mythical explanation of events. >> > For example, Saruman used something a modern reader >> > would suspect was gunpowder, but the characters believed >> > this was some new magic. The eruptions and smoke from >> > Mount Doom were given a magical interpretation too. >> > Sauron seemed more like a force of nature than a personality. >> > >> > It seemed that Tolkien was trying to show >> > that the Silmarillion was mostly a myth instead >> > of a history. >> >> Thank you. You have now provided the most crackpotted explanation of >> LotR ever. You are an inspiration to crack-pots everywhere. >> >> Jon Cast > > do I win a prize? I think the point that is being made is that your explanation does not fit with external reality. LotR did not end the writing of the Silmarillion, which continued on long after LotR was completed. Some of the figures in the Silmarillion; namely Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel, saw events stated in the Silmarillion. In fact, Galadriel was from Aman, and if not witness to the Kinslaying, certainly knew of it, and knew many figures such as Luthien, Feanor and his sons, etc. To say that LotR somehow shows up the Silmarillion as a myth is pretty nonsensical. Besides, the FAll of Gondolin as found in Lost Tales shows Morgoth utilizing machines in warfare. So the use of mechanical devices is in no way counter to other elements found in the mythology. -- A. Clausen maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net ###### From: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 02:27:11 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA Lines: 51 Sender: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Message-ID: References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com X-Trace: pcls4.std.com 1053397631 4643 199.172.62.241 (20 May 2003 02:27:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@TheWorld.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 02:27:11 +0000 (UTC) X-no-archive: no X-no-markup: yes Originator: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!news2.euro.net!uunet!sac.uu.net!nntp.TheWorld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117453 In article , coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote: >In article <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com>, >villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) wrote: > >> My last few readings of LOTR gave me the impression >> that Tolkien was trying to question the magic and >> mythical explanation of events. >> For example, Saruman used something a modern reader >> would suspect was gunpowder, but the characters believed >> this was some new magic. The eruptions and smoke from >> Mount Doom were given a magical interpretation too. >> Sauron seemed more like a force of nature than a personality. > >arthur c clarkes quote that any sufficiently advanced science >would appear to be magic > >i suppose magic could be considered altering reality without understanding >the mechanism of the alteration >so you press a button a magically room appears >that magically takes you up and down > >while science could be considered alteration with understanding >so that you understand about call buttons and electromechanical connections >and cabling and elevator shafts Except that the Elves *did* understand what they were doing. Of course, *they* didn't call what they did magic. This keeps coming up when Sam is talking to the Elves of Lothlorien. >the valar and maiar would understand just about everything >other than elf and human psychology Gandalf did. >whether auron was a force of nature depends on whether you allow >forces of nature to be intelligent >carathras was a mountain but it was also presented as aware and malicious >and enough material control to act on its malice > >reread the discussion in the pass under caranras >aboiut whether the blizzard was natural or intentional Carahdras was a force of nature, with a certian amount of malice. Sauron moves from place to place and plots and schemes like a human or elf might. -- pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "If more of us valued food and cheer and | song above hoarded gold, it would be a | merrier world." --Thorin Oakenshield ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:59:38 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <9p5jcvsmopqd2dojth6m9g6fsb7a3kv247@4ax.com> References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-224.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117475 On Tue, 20 May 2003 02:27:11 +0000 (UTC), pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote: |pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "If more of us valued food and cheer and | | song above hoarded gold, it would be a | | merrier world." --Thorin Oakenshield That Thorin, the epicurean of Middle Earth. 'Course, I guess most hobbits qualify there, too .. ____ Faith is about believing in something, and letting it change you .. You don't fix faith; faith fixes you. -- Book, Firefly ###### From: villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science Date: 19 May 2003 20:20:53 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 48 Message-ID: <2ab17fda.0305191920.535beafa@posting.google.com> References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> <87znljwk1h.fsf@ou.edu> <2ab17fda.0305190418.ee08d4c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.153.155.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053400853 13601 127.0.0.1 (20 May 2003 03:20:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2003 03:20:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117476 AC wrote in message news:... > On 19 May 2003 05:18:23 -0700, > Bob wrote: > > Jon Cast wrote in message news:<87znljwk1h.fsf@ou.edu>... > >> villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) writes: > >> > >> > My last few readings of LOTR gave me the impression > >> > that Tolkien was trying to question the magic and > >> > mythical explanation of events. > >> > For example, Saruman used something a modern reader > >> > would suspect was gunpowder, but the characters believed > >> > this was some new magic. The eruptions and smoke from > >> > Mount Doom were given a magical interpretation too. > >> > Sauron seemed more like a force of nature than a personality. > >> > > >> > It seemed that Tolkien was trying to show > >> > that the Silmarillion was mostly a myth instead > >> > of a history. > >> > >> Thank you. You have now provided the most crackpotted explanation of > >> LotR ever. You are an inspiration to crack-pots everywhere. > >> > >> Jon Cast > > > > do I win a prize? > > I think the point that is being made is that your explanation does not fit > with external reality. LotR did not end the writing of the Silmarillion, > which continued on long after LotR was completed. Some of the figures in > the Silmarillion; namely Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel, saw events stated in > the Silmarillion. In fact, Galadriel was from Aman, and if not witness to > the Kinslaying, certainly knew of it, and knew many figures such as Luthien, > Feanor and his sons, etc. To say that LotR somehow shows up the > Silmarillion as a myth is pretty nonsensical. > > Besides, the FAll of Gondolin as found in Lost Tales shows Morgoth utilizing > machines in warfare. So the use of mechanical devices is in no way counter > to other elements found in the mythology. It seemed to me that Tolkien was deliberately introducing some ambiguity and doubt about the magic and legends to enhance reality and transition to the fourth age. There had to be a third age interpretation and an equally valid fourth age interpretation to events, because the ages were overlapping in LOTR. After Gandalf, etc. left for Valinor the third age became an impossible myth. Sorry if that is confusing; crack-pot ideas are hard to explain. ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science Date: 20 May 2003 04:45:13 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 57 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0305200345.97f3667@posting.google.com> References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> <87znljwk1h.fsf@ou.edu> <2ab17fda.0305190418.ee08d4c@posting.google.com> <2ab17fda.0305191920.535beafa@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053431114 2763 127.0.0.1 (20 May 2003 11:45:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2003 11:45:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117472 villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) wrote in message news:<2ab17fda.0305191920.535beafa@posting.google.com>... > AC wrote in message news:... > > On 19 May 2003 05:18:23 -0700, > > Bob wrote: > > > Jon Cast wrote in message news:<87znljwk1h.fsf@ou.edu>... > > >> villagernumber6@yahoo.com (Bob) writes: > > >> > > >> > My last few readings of LOTR gave me the impression > > >> > that Tolkien was trying to question the magic and > > >> > mythical explanation of events. > > >> > For example, Saruman used something a modern reader > > >> > would suspect was gunpowder, but the characters believed > > >> > this was some new magic. The eruptions and smoke from > > >> > Mount Doom were given a magical interpretation too. > > >> > Sauron seemed more like a force of nature than a personality. > > >> > > > >> > It seemed that Tolkien was trying to show > > >> > that the Silmarillion was mostly a myth instead > > >> > of a history. > > >> > > >> Thank you. You have now provided the most crackpotted explanation of > > >> LotR ever. You are an inspiration to crack-pots everywhere. > > >> > > >> Jon Cast > > > > > > do I win a prize? > > > > I think the point that is being made is that your explanation does not fit > > with external reality. LotR did not end the writing of the Silmarillion, > > which continued on long after LotR was completed. Some of the figures in > > the Silmarillion; namely Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel, saw events stated in > > the Silmarillion. In fact, Galadriel was from Aman, and if not witness to > > the Kinslaying, certainly knew of it, and knew many figures such as Luthien, > > Feanor and his sons, etc. To say that LotR somehow shows up the > > Silmarillion as a myth is pretty nonsensical. > > > > Besides, the FAll of Gondolin as found in Lost Tales shows Morgoth utilizing > > machines in warfare. So the use of mechanical devices is in no way counter > > to other elements found in the mythology. > > It seemed to me that Tolkien was deliberately introducing > some ambiguity and doubt about the magic and legends > to enhance reality and transition to the fourth age. > There had to be a third age interpretation > and an equally valid fourth age interpretation to events, > because the ages were overlapping in LOTR. After Gandalf, > etc. left for Valinor the third age became an impossible myth. > > Sorry if that is confusing; crack-pot ideas are hard to explain. I have allways thought that the Elves were masters of science which the Hobbits saw as magic. Arthur Clarke is indeed a good person to quote. There are several places in Lord of the Rings where the Elves correct the Hobbits and say "Not magic, but crafts." The Lord of the Rings is a tale of events as seen or reported by Hobbits. A neat device for a writer who wnated a foot on each side. ###### From: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LOTR magic and science Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 17:48:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA Lines: 23 Sender: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Message-ID: References: <2ab17fda.0305180839.694ccf3e@posting.google.com> <9p5jcvsmopqd2dojth6m9g6fsb7a3kv247@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com X-Trace: pcls4.std.com 1054748898 10364 199.172.62.241 (4 Jun 2003 17:48:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@TheWorld.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 17:48:18 +0000 (UTC) X-no-archive: no X-no-markup: yes Originator: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!nntp.TheWorld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:118284 In article <9p5jcvsmopqd2dojth6m9g6fsb7a3kv247@4ax.com>, Boris Badenov wrote: >On Tue, 20 May 2003 02:27:11 +0000 (UTC), pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul >Ciszek) wrote: > >|pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "If more of us valued food and cheer and >| | song above hoarded gold, it would be a >| | merrier world." --Thorin Oakenshield > >That Thorin, the epicurean of Middle Earth. 'Course, I guess most >hobbits qualify there, >too .. What are you getting at? Thorin, on his deathbed, is saying that the world would be a happier place if Dwarves lived a little more like Hobbits. Go read _The Hobbit_ by J.R.R. Tolkien; you're in for a wonderful treat. -- pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "If more of us valued food and cheer and | song above hoarded gold, it would be a | merrier world." --Thorin Oakenshield