Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 287 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1052682338 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 11 May 2003 14:45:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:45:38 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: CLxva-2768-Y4-2994@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 717b5053 3c11a519 ae285148 4f56b0d6 29f11e51 Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:45:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116948 This essay has been a _very_ long time in the making, but I've finally finished it. (Cue the cheers of all those who have chanted "We want the canonicity essay!" over the past months or even the past year.) Or at least, I've finally finished a version that I'm content to share with the world. :) As usual with my essays, I very much welcome comments and criticism, whether positive or negative. (Try to keep the criticism reasonably constructive, though!) Unlike the case with my Bombadil essay, I don't even have a slight notion of this being close to the final word on the subject: this essay deals with a subject that is intrinsically personal, and thus it includes a reasonable amount of my own opinions. However, I hope that sharing these thoughts will be interesting and perhaps even beneficial to everyone. So without further ado... --------------------------------------------------------------------- TOLKIEN'S PARISH: THE CANONICAL MIDDLE-EARTH An essay by Steuard Jensen (Completed 11 May 2003) J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth is without question one of the most vividly realized imaginary worlds in all of literature. From its history to its languages to its inhabitants and beyond, it is vast in scope yet intricate in detail, rivaling even the mythologies of entire ancient cultures. A tremendous number of readers have deeply enjoyed Tolkien's stories in that world, and for many the heart of their enjoyment is a love of Middle-earth itself. What makes Middle-earth such a joy to explore? There are many answers, but the most basic of all is that on some level, Middle-earth simply feels real. This is one of Tolkien's main points in his essay "On Fairy Stories", where he claims that no story can be successful without maintaining "the inner consistency of reality." An author "makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is 'true': it accords with the laws of that world. ... The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed." Tolkien spent much of his life seeking to bring this level of consistency to his own "sub-created" world. Achieving that goal is no easy task in a fantasy story! Tolkien goes on to admit that "It is easier to produce this kind of 'reality' with more 'sober' material." The countless drafts and revisions found in the "History of Middle-earth" books reveal Tolkien's long struggle to perfect his work, but they also make it clear that the process was far from complete. By the end of his life, some of his tales had approached a "finished" form or even become largely fixed by being published, but many remained in flux, and some existed only in outline. Because of this, it is difficult to know how to think about Tolkien's Secondary World. In a very real sense, it exists only as an evolving creation that changed continuously throughout his life. In the Foreword to _The Silmarillion_ Christopher Tolkien makes note of this, explaining that its content "was far indeed from being a fixed text, and did not remain unchanged even in certain fundamental ideas concerning the nature of the world it portrays." How could we hope to find "the inner consistency of reality" in a world that was in such flux in its author's own mind? The answer, of course, is that we cannot: Middle-earth was never "finished", and knowing Tolkien's fondness for tinkering with his tales they might never have converged on a final form no matter how long he had lived. However, that cannot be the end of the discussion: the positive experience of so many readers makes it clear that much of the inner consistency of reality is already there. This is due in part to Tolkien's own methods of developing his stories, in which he often "discovered" new details of his world while exploring the logical consequences of some particular historical or linguistic detail. It must also reflect his superb intuition for a good story. In any case, Tolkien's readers do get a sense that Middle-earth "exists" in the sub-creative sense, and many of them take great pleasure in exploring it themselves as best they can. For this reason, readers who venture beyond _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ are quickly faced with ambiguity: which version of each story is "true" in Tolkien's Secondary World? And more fundamentally, how is it possible to define a version of that world that is stable enough to explore in this way at all? Those who want a full understanding of Middle-earth must read Tolkien's original writings and decide how much weight to assign to each one. In what follows, I discuss some of the issues involved in this process of defining the "canonical" Middle-earth, list some goals that a set of canonical texts should satisfy, and suggest a general approach to meeting those goals that I prefer. The Oxford English Dictionary defines "canonical" in this context as "of admitted authority, excellence, or supremacy; authoritative." For most of Tolkien's readers, the choice of canonical texts is not a conscious one: they assume that the books are equally authoritative until they first encounter obvious ambiguities. Those assumptions can persist through _The Hobbit_, _The Lord of the Rings_, and _The Silmarillion_, but are quickly shattered by _Unfinished Tales_ and the History of Middle-earth books. Once a reader becomes aware of the question of "canonicity", several general responses are common. Some people abandon the idea of a "true" Middle-earth entirely and simply enjoy observing Tolkien's process of creation. That is a very reasonable choice, and I will not fault anyone who decides that reading this essay would be a waste of their time. Among those who still hope to explore a "true" Middle-earth, some treat Tolkien's latest version of any given story as the canonical one. Some choose one reference (typically _The Lord of the Rings_) as absolutely canonical and judge Tolkien's other writings by their consistency with it. And some choose canonical texts based on their personal impression of which "feels right". Each of these approaches has its own strengths and weaknesses, and there are probably as many variations and combinations of them as there are readers to discuss them. Any attempt to define these strategies more clearly quickly leads to some fundamental observations about this issue. To begin with, it is clear that the canonicity of a text should be judged on a sliding scale rather than a simple yes or no: two choices would obviously not be enough to distinguish the trustworthiness of published books like _The Lord of the Rings_, well-developed texts like the "Annals of Aman" in _Morgoth's Ring_, and early explorations like _The Book of Lost Tales_. A continuous scale will give us the freedom we need. Less clear at first is whether canonicity should be assigned text by text or detail by detail. That is, if one part of a text is "wrong", should anything else in that text be trusted? It seems that the answer is somewhere between yes and no. Certainly if Tolkien bases a discussion on a "flawed" premise (one that contradicts firmly accepted information), the conclusions that follow are not reliable. (The essay "The Problem of Ros" in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ is a classic example: Tolkien rejected most of it himself for this very reason.) On the other hand, one small mistake in a text should not immediately lead unrelated statements there to be rejected as untrustworthy (though twenty mistakes might). The best approach seems to be to make each decision carefully based on context. Finally, we must address the role of personal preferences. Is it even reasonable to look for a universal definition of the Tolkien canon, or should everyone make their own choice? If we hope to discuss Middle-earth together, we need at least some common ground, but how much personal variation should the definition allow? A major goal of this essay is to seek as much common ground as possible while recognizing that each person's priorities in defining canon differ. No single strategy is right for everyone. Having established what we mean by "canonical", the next logical step is to list a set of goals that we would like the canonical Middle-earth to satisfy. The list that follows inevitably reflects my personal preferences, but I hope that it will seem at least reasonable to most readers. These goals are listed roughly in order of precedence as I see it (and I suspect that that the order is more likely to be controversial than the contents). The goals are: 1. "The inner consistency of reality": Above all, the accepted canonical facts about Middle-earth must describe an internally consistent world. That consistency must be natural, too: "acts of God" should be limited to those Tolkien described, and less complicated solutions are generally preferable to more. 2. Consistent with published texts: The writings that Tolkien completed and shared with the world should take precedence over those he did not. This seems to have been Tolkien's own strategy most of the time (yes, he made revisions, but not often, and we don't have that freedom). If those texts are themselves inconsistent, things get more complicated; most agree that _The Lord of the Rings_ takes precedence over the others, but seeking a mutually consistent solution is best. Problems like typographical errors are probably best solved by deducing Tolkien's intent from earlier notes and drafts (like those in the "History of _The Lord of the Rings_" books). 3. Preserves the general structure of the mythology: While details large and small changed all the time, Tolkien's legendarium retained the same basic outline for most of his life. Although Tolkien occasionally considered radical changes to that structure, our only hope of constructing a complete picture of Middle-earth is to base it on the best developed version of the stories. Thus... 4. Based on Tolkien's latest and best developed statements: Tolkien spent most of his life trying to perfect his tales of Middle-earth, so the latest version of each tale and essay is our best guide to his vision. Note, however, that some of his early stories are also some of his most vivid: they may convey the "feel" of events in the history of Middle-earth more successfully than later versions, even when their details are entirely untrustworthy. 5. Makes a satisfying and enjoyable story: This certainly opens the door wide to personal preferences, but it is not a bad way to decide between variants that otherwise seem comparably reliable. 6. Provides as much information as possible: As a general rule, err on the side of accepting information, even if only tentatively. Don't reject all of a detailed intermediate draft because a few parts of it contradict a later sketch. With goals like these in mind, we as readers already have a general idea of how to choose a set of canonical texts that will be as satisfying as possible. I will go one step further and outline a more specific vision of the canonical Middle-earth, which can provide a guiding philosophy to achieve the above goals. This is essentially a statement of my own personal approach, but I think it is worth sharing. I envision the "true" Middle-earth as the result that Tolkien would eventually have achieved if he had been given unlimited and productive time in which to perfect it. I like to think of this as "Tolkien's Parish", his own version of the "picture made real" that became known as Niggle's Parish in his story "Leaf by Niggle". This is only a metaphor: I do not mean to imply that Tolkien wrote "Leaf by Niggle" with such a specific comparison to his own work in mind. Still, Tolkien's own experience and his thoughts on the nature of art must have contributed to all of his writings, and I would be amazed if the similarities between Tolkien and Niggle were entirely coincidental. This approach naturally satisfies all of the goals listed above. Niggle, like Tolkien, struggled to perfect the details of his art, and when he explored the realization of his picture he found that "Nothing needed altering any longer, nothing was wrong, as far as it had gone, but it needed continuing up to a definite point." Tolkien's Parish would be the Secondary World of Middle-earth itself with all its history, and would of course have "the inner consistency of reality." Just as the heart of Niggle's country was the Tree, the heart of Tolkien's Parish would be the stories of _The Lord of the Rings_ and the other writings Tolkien published while he lived, but perfectly executed, "as he had imagined them rather than as he had made them." The place of Niggle's Tree relative to the rest of his country also has a clear parallel in Tolkien's works. We read that "The Tree was finished... but in the Forest there were a number of inconclusive regions, that still needed work and thought." In the same way, the Silmarillion and the other early tales were envisioned but not yet completed. The special appeal of their distant history even matches the special appeal of Niggle's "distant Forest" that one could approach and even enter "without its losing that particular charm." (Some people choose not to read _The Silmarillion_ out of the fear that its stories will lose this mystique of distance.) Because some of Tolkien's latest writings included attempts to remove all references to a flat earth before the sun and moon, it is less clear that Tolkien would have chosen in the end to "preserve the general structure of the mythology." However, he might well have done so: after all, he had seriously considered the same idea years earlier before abandoning it. Tolkien considered these changes in order to make Middle-earth's nature and history closer to that of the real world, but he might have reconsidered once he realized that no realistic connection to true history was possible. The connections between this concept of Tolkien's Parish and the final three goals are clear. Naturally, Tolkien's latest writings give good hints about the mythology's ultimate form (and this framework provides guidance on choosing between them). His works, finished and unfinished, are deeply enjoyable to a great many people, and in most ways they only improved as he put more thought and effort into them. And finally, as a full sub-created Secondary World, Tolkien's Parish would be "complete" in its history and content. Of course, fully understanding Tolkien's Parish in this sense would be impossible, as Tolkien did not in the end achieve it. What value, then, does this concept have for us as fans and readers? First, it provides a common framework for discussions about Middle-earth that makes the role of personal preference clear. Many heated debates could be more polite and productive if the participants understood each other's assumptions. Second, it guides our efforts to extrapolate beyond those facts directly stated in Tolkien's writings. By trying to fill in gaps in our knowledge as Tolkien would have, searching for answers that bring Middle-earth closer to being a complete and consistent Secondary World, we can gain new insight into his vision. Naturally, we have less freedom of choice in this than Tolkien would, so where he could make a final decision we can only make educated guesses. In the end, though, the greatest benefit of imagining Middle-earth as Tolkien's Parish is the joy of exploring a true Secondary World. Very few authors can equal Tolkien in their ability to portray a world so different from our own and yet so real and alive. By treating that world seriously, as having true existence on an artistic plane, we come as close as possibly to experiencing it as Tolkien himself did, as close as we can to sharing his delight and love of Middle-earth. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1052685242 12.236.164.115 (Sun, 11 May 2003 20:34:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:34:02 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:34:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116979 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > Less clear at first is whether canonicity should be assigned text > by text or detail by detail. That is, if one part of a text is > "wrong", should anything else in that text be trusted? It seems that > the answer is somewhere between yes and no. Certainly if Tolkien > bases a discussion on a "flawed" premise (one that contradicts firmly > accepted information), the conclusions that follow are not reliable. > (The essay "The Problem of Ros" in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ is a > classic example: Tolkien rejected most of it himself for this very > reason.) On the other hand, one small mistake in a text should not > immediately lead unrelated statements there to be rejected as > untrustworthy (though twenty mistakes might). The best approach seems > to be to make each decision carefully based on context. re: Problem of Ros Granted JRRT did note on the text in question "most of this fails". But that does not necessarily mean that all (or most) of the 'facts' presented are unreliable. In essence the Problem of Ros is a linguistic essay, and what 'fails' is specifically the proposed (or possible) solution to the percieved linguistic problem JRRT sought to resolve. Much of the 'historical' information presented is, arguably, quite valid, and should be looked at in context with what is elsewhere said to see whether it is contradicted or supported (or is new). -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 28 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1052685796 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 11 May 2003 15:43:16 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 15:43:16 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: EByva-3073-Y4-3249@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 930c94e4 d3bdf193 2806c37c cb9ec6dc 2dd8ea26 Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:43:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116947 Quoth Tar-Elenion in article : > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > Certainly if Tolkien bases a discussion on a "flawed" premise (one > > that contradicts firmly accepted information), the conclusions > > that follow are not reliable. (The essay "The Problem of Ros" in > > _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ is a classic example: Tolkien > > rejected most of it himself for this very reason.) > Granted JRRT did note on the text in question "most of this > fails". But that does not necessarily mean that all (or most) of the > 'facts' presented are unreliable. In essence the Problem of Ros is a > linguistic essay, and what 'fails' is specifically the proposed (or > possible) solution to the percieved linguistic problem JRRT sought > to resolve. But it goes beyond that, at least as far as I recall (it's been some time since I read that essay... or for that matter, since I wrote the above paragraph!). My memory is that at least a fair bit of the "historical" information in that essay was more or less "derived" from the notion that "-ros" was an element of an old human language. I certainl don't mean to say that every little detail of the essay was rejected, but I think that every detail that he came up with as a result of the "flawed premise" _was_ called into question... even those that were not obviously related to the specific linguistic point. I'd need to reread the essay to be able to make more specific claims. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1052686565 12.236.164.115 (Sun, 11 May 2003 20:56:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:56:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:56:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116977 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > But it goes beyond that, at least as far as I recall (it's been some > time since I read that essay... or for that matter, since I wrote the > above paragraph!). My memory is that at least a fair bit of the > "historical" information in that essay was more or less "derived" from > the notion that "-ros" was an element of an old human language. I > certainl don't mean to say that every little detail of the essay was > rejected, but I think that every detail that he came up with as a > result of the "flawed premise" _was_ called into question... even > those that were not obviously related to the specific linguistic > point. I'd need to reread the essay to be able to make more specific > claims. :) > Steuard Jensen > Please do... :) -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 11 May 2003 18:44:16 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 8 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0305111744.69cc73cd@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.102.32.29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052703858 11346 127.0.0.1 (12 May 2003 01:44:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 May 2003 01:44:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117035 Nice job! I liked the way you tied Leaf by Niggle in. Criticism? There appears to be a typo near the end("possibly" where it should say "possible") but other than that it is fine by me. I can be put down in the "whatever version feels right" camp in case anyone cares. That is how I approach everything else, why not Tolkien? ###### Message-ID: <3EC00723.F2D09AFB@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:42:11 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.175.123 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1052743345 194.125.175.123 (Mon, 12 May 2003 13:42:25 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:42:25 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117041 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > This essay has been a _very_ long time in the making, but I've finally > finished it. (Cue the cheers of all those who have chanted "We want > the canonicity essay!" over the past months or even the past year.) > Or at least, I've finally finished a version that I'm content to share > with the world. :) Steuard, This is NOT even a long as one of my posts! You MUST do MORE! Seriously, I enjoyed it, even if I haven't read all the references therein yet. Excellently done. M. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 04:33:17 -0400 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305050602.37bf253d@posting.google.com> <3EB84945.F80703A1@indigo.ie> <3EB9E36C.E3B72C68@indigo.ie> <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbXLQb7iJfmmqVo4a5Zn55d73ZnGiX2l2+wXtByqTaKYKEWb2HCQYb6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 02:53:05 GMT In-Reply-To: <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117061 Michael O'Neill wrote: > My point was that the printed Sil is contradicted by/contradicts the > Letter regarding whether Sauron brought the Ring with him. Putting aside the question of Sauron and the Ring, it's odd that you assume the Letter's wrong rather than the Silmarillion. You need to reread Steuard's pages on the canon. If there is disagreement, Letters wins in terms of canonicity. -- FotW The Official Return of the King Protest Site http://members.aol.com/rotkprotest/ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305050602.37bf253d@posting.google.com> <3EB84945.F80703A1@indigo.ie> <3EB9E36C.E3B72C68@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080435.68a8f04f@posting.google.com> <3EBADC40.52C5E72F@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <3EBD6756.9D49361@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1052778424 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 12 May 2003 22:27:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:27:04 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:27:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117081 In article <3EBD6756.9D49361@indigo.ie>, onq@indigo.ie says... > Jeff MacDonald wrote: > > > > In article <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > > > The first is from the Sil, the Akallabeth: > > > > > >"... shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and > > > to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in > > > Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a > > > new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of > > > Sauron the Terrible few could endure." > > > > > > of this quote> > > > > This seems to say that Sauron returned to Mordor, took up the Ring, > > and *then* built himself a new body. That implies he took up the Ring > > while still discarnate. > > > > This seems to counter both your arguments. If he takes up the Ring > > while still a spirit, then the "took up" has to refer to him getting > > the Ring again, since if he'd brought it back from Numenor as a spirit > > nothing would have changed. He wouldn't have taken it up, he would > > have still had it. > > > > On the other hand, if he can take it up while a spirit, why couldn't > > he have carried it from Numenor? > > Sorry. Mope. > > :-) > > In my opinion Sauron had to return to Mordor, build his new body [or at > least get the work started sufficiently to allow him directly interact > with matter] and only *then* take up the Ring. Considering what you are maintaing in about the entry of the Valar and Maiar into Arda, what you are saying here has become "special pleading". -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 12 May 2003 22:30:02 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 13 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <3EB84945.F80703A1@indigo.ie> <3EB9E36C.E3B72C68@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080435.68a8f04f@posting.google.com> <3EBADC40.52C5E72F@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <3EBD6756.9D49361@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: arctic.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117063 Michael O'Neill wrote: : In my opinion Sauron had to return to Mordor, build his new body [or at : least get the work started sufficiently to allow him directly interact : with matter] and only *then* take up the Ring. : It wasn't all done in a day. : M. How does he rebuild a body if disincarnate Maiar are incapable of manipulating the physical world? Stephen ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 12 May 2003 22:47:42 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305080435.68a8f04f@posting.google.com> <3EBADC40.52C5E72F@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090604.4a153478@posting.google.com> <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1052779662 13697 128.214.205.27 (12 May 2003 22:47:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 May 2003 22:47:42 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!luth.se!newsfeed1!bredband!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117077 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Michael O'Neill wrote in message news:<3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie>... > >> To suggest Sauron could have located the Ring while in his spirit form >> is nonsense. He wasn't even able to locate it when he regrew his body >> after the Last Alliance. > It is possible that Sauron's spirit remained with the body during the > Downfall as it did at the battle with the Last Alliance. There would > then be no question of 'locating' the Ring, and if the broken body > were NOT buried but merely slain and lost in the water there would > then be no need to move vast quantities of earth. Just one small > Ring. When Huan had him by his throat he changed shapes many times. Apparently all the Ainur had this ability in the beginning, but some of the evil ones lost it eventually. Why couldn't he have taken the shape of some kind of a shadow, partly material and thus carried the ring like a bat would for example. I don't see anything definitive in the following passage saying that his material form (fana) was completely lost and all that remained was spirit (soul, fea) "and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea," > You only ASSUME that Sauron was buried under tons of earth. You only > ASSUME that his spirit was separated from the Ring. You cannot make > such assumptions in arguing that 'Tolkien was mistaken'. If you do it > is AT LEAST as likely that Tolkien's statements were entirely > consistent and it is your assumptions which are mistaken. -- ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... References: <1178b6d1.0305080435.68a8f04f@posting.google.com> <3EBADC40.52C5E72F@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090604.4a153478@posting.google.com> <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:36:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!69.22.128.15.MISMATCH!newsfeeder2.randori.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117056 On 12 May 2003 22:47:42 GMT, Tamim wrote: > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> Michael O'Neill wrote in message news:<3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie>... > >> > >>> To suggest Sauron could have located the Ring while in his spirit form >>> is nonsense. He wasn't even able to locate it when he regrew his body >>> after the Last Alliance. > >> It is possible that Sauron's spirit remained with the body during the >> Downfall as it did at the battle with the Last Alliance. There would >> then be no question of 'locating' the Ring, and if the broken body >> were NOT buried but merely slain and lost in the water there would >> then be no need to move vast quantities of earth. Just one small >> Ring. > > When Huan had him by his throat he changed shapes many times. Apparently > all the Ainur had this ability in the beginning, but some of the evil > ones lost it eventually. Why couldn't he have taken the shape of some > kind of a shadow, partly material and thus carried the ring like a bat > would for example. > > I don't see anything definitive in the following passage saying that his > material form (fana) was completely lost and all that remained was > spirit (soul, fea) > > "and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, > and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so > great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of > Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a > black wind over the sea," To be honest, that passage does indeed suggest that Sauron's body was killed in the Downfall ("he was robbed now of that shape"). Tolkien stated simply that Sauron would, even with his physical form destroyed, been able to carry off the Ring. There is another side to all of this which I have been thinking about since Michael bonked me on the head. Why would Sauron have left the Ring behind when he went to Numenor? The Ring held the greater part of his power. Where would he have left it that he could have believed was safe from his enemies, and even his servants? It seems improbable that something so precious and important would have been locked in vault. I doubt very much that Sauron ever expected Eru's intervention. He obviously thought that he could make the rift between Ar-Pharazon and the Valar so complete that Ar-Pharazon would willingly begin worshipping Morgoth and send his might to assail the Valar. I think it most likely that Sauron thought the Valar would stomp on Ar-Pharazon, thus doing the hardwork of ending the military might of the Numenoreans for him. I'm quite certain that if he had foreseen the kind of ruin that sending an aging and foolish Ar-Pharazon against Valinor would bring, he probably would have either suggested something a little less dramatic or would have at least got in a boat and headed East while the Numenorean fleet headed West. His mock defiance of the Valar seems, in my mind at least, to indicate that he planned on usurping Ar-Pharazon's throne and completing his subjugation of his greatest enemy. Anyways, it's just my thoughts on the matter. I'm still firmly convinced that Tolkien's intent was that Sauron possessed and used the Ring during his stay in Numenor. -- A. Clausen maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 13 May 2003 08:10:08 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090604.4a153478@posting.google.com> <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1052813408 1474 128.214.205.27 (13 May 2003 08:10:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 08:10:08 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!uio.no!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117074 AC wrote: snip >> >> I don't see anything definitive in the following passage saying that his >> material form (fana) was completely lost and all that remained was >> spirit (soul, fea) >> >> "and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, >> and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so >> great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of >> Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a >> black wind over the sea," > To be honest, that passage does indeed suggest that Sauron's body was killed > in the Downfall ("he was robbed now of that shape"). Morgoth was robbed of his beautiful shape without having his body slain, this could be a similar situation. But I agree, the first thing that comes into mind from the passage is that his bodily form was killed, that's why I said "anything definitive". >Tolkien stated simply > that Sauron would, even with his physical form destroyed, been able to carry > off the Ring. snip Here I agree with Michael. Somehow that statement doesn't fit with the rest of the mythology. There's another possibility: his body might have been killed, but somehow in that short time he re-embodied and then carried the ring over the sea. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 13 May 2003 02:19:41 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 8 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305130119.312838f7@posting.google.com> References: <3EB84945.F80703A1@indigo.ie> <3EB9E36C.E3B72C68@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080435.68a8f04f@posting.google.com> <3EBADC40.52C5E72F@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <3EBD6756.9D49361@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052817582 2007 127.0.0.1 (13 May 2003 09:19:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 09:19:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117084 stephen@nomail.com wrote in message news:... > How does he rebuild a body if disincarnate Maiar are incapable > of manipulating the physical world? LOL! That DOES seem rather a contradiction, doesn't it? ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 13 May 2003 02:41:25 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 40 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305130141.590d45fd@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305050602.37bf253d@posting.google.com> <3EB84945.F80703A1@indigo.ie> <3EB9E36C.E3B72C68@indigo.ie> <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052818885 2929 127.0.0.1 (13 May 2003 09:41:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 09:41:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117094 Flame of the West wrote in message news:... > Putting aside the question of Sauron and the Ring, it's odd > that you assume the Letter's wrong rather than the Silmarillion. > You need to reread Steuard's pages on the canon. If there > is disagreement, Letters wins in terms of canonicity. Well, Michael isn't alone in holding Silm as 'more canonical' than Letters... there is a school of thought which holds the 'canon' to be The Hobbit, LotR and Silmarillion - with everything that came later being 'alternate versions'. These were the 'original' books that were published during the first hey dey of Tolkien fandom and the only books many Tolkien fans have read. The problem there is, of course, that Silm was not published by JRRT and contains minor alterations put in by CT in an effort to 'line up' disparate pieces of the mythology. Like you and Steuard I tend to put considerable weight to what is said in Letters, but there ARE people who are very resistant to that idea. Generally, people who haven't read Letters. The thing which sets Letters apart from all the other books is that Tolkien is there talking about his INTENT rather than writing narratives. In all the other books we run into differing interpretations of what a given passage meant, but in Letters Tolkien TELLS us what he meant. That can sometimes make it an even more authoritative source than LotR. On the other hand, there ARE instances of errors in Letters. For instance, Tolkien wrote that 'the Balrog never speaks nor makes any vocal sound' in criticizing the talking Balrog in the Zimmerman script... but in LotR the Balrog DID cry out as it fell. Overall I think all the texts have to be taken into account... no source can be said to ALWAYS 'top' another. Even LotR contains errors - such as the two different durations given for Aragorn's life. The only way to get close to what Tolkien really intended is to look at all the relevant texts and see if there is an explanation that fits everything he wrote. Often that explanation is that he changed his mind, but it can also often be a single explanation provided we are open to all plausible interpretations of the narrative texts. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:37:26 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305080435.68a8f04f@posting.google.com> <3EBADC40.52C5E72F@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090604.4a153478@posting.google.com> <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117090 AC wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Why would Sauron have left the Ring behind >when he went to Numenor? The Ring held the greater part of his power. >Where would he have left it that he could have believed was safe from his >enemies, and even his servants? It seems improbable that something so >precious and important would have been locked in vault. I agree with you, and have said as much in the FAQ of the Rings. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:40:57 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090604.4a153478@posting.google.com> <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117085 Tamim wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >AC wrote: >>Tolkien stated simply that Sauron would, even with his >>physical form destroyed, been able to carry off the Ring. > >Here I agree with Michael. Somehow that statement doesn't fit with the >rest of the mythology. The Valar and the Maiar shaped the world originally out of the chaos that they found when they entered it. Ossë (a Maia like Sauron) was able to move a big island by force of will. Why should Sauron have had any trouble with a tiny piece of metal? I agree this isn't totally obvious. I had trouble with Tolkien's statement at first, because he simply brushed the difficulty aside instead of directly refuting it. But it seems that all the Ainur, at least the more important ones, could affect material objects by force of will. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Message-ID: <3EC0FFE3.50331AEF@1.au> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... References: <1178b6d1.0305080435.68a8f04f@posting.google.com> <3EBADC40.52C5E72F@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090604.4a153478@posting.google.com> <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:14:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.37.233 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1052835286 172.21.37.233 (Tue, 13 May 2003 17:14:46 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:14:46 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117082 AC wrote: > To be honest, that passage does indeed suggest that Sauron's body was killed > in the Downfall ("he was robbed now of that shape"). Tolkien stated simply > that Sauron would, even with his physical form destroyed, been able to carry > off the Ring. One factor that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet is that the Downfall was about more than just water, it was the "Wrath of God" that destroyed the island. At least I always thought that Eru "smote" Numenor as a whole (including Sauron) and thus effected permanent "injury" to Sauron's spirit, one of the consequences of which being that he was no longer able to assume a form that could conceal his darkness. This I consider to be a more dramatic interpretation than imaginig Sauron (a vast angelic being) just drowning like a rat. -JJ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... References: <1178b6d1.0305080435.68a8f04f@posting.google.com> <3EBADC40.52C5E72F@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080948.200a60a4@posting.google.com> <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090604.4a153478@posting.google.com> <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> <3EC0FFE3.50331AEF@1.au> Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:17:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!69.22.128.15.MISMATCH!newsfeeder2.randori.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117052 On Tue, 13 May 2003 14:14:46 GMT, Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> wrote: > > AC wrote: > >> To be honest, that passage does indeed suggest that Sauron's body was killed >> in the Downfall ("he was robbed now of that shape"). Tolkien stated simply >> that Sauron would, even with his physical form destroyed, been able to carry >> off the Ring. > > One factor that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet is that the > Downfall was about more than just water, it was the "Wrath of God" that > destroyed the island. At least I always thought that Eru "smote" Numenor > as a whole (including Sauron) and thus effected permanent "injury" to > Sauron's spirit, one of the consequences of which being that he was no > longer able to assume a form that could conceal his darkness. This I > consider to be a more dramatic interpretation than imaginig Sauron (a > vast angelic being) just drowning like a rat. I don't think Sauron's inability to incarnate himself in a pleasing form necessarily had anything to do with Eru's intervention. Morgoth became "stuck" in his last form as well. It seems that this has more to do with the injury and shock of the death of a physical form and the fall from grace (so to speak). -- A. Clausen maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 13 May 2003 15:39:28 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1052840368 18315 128.214.205.27 (13 May 2003 15:39:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 15:39:28 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117079 Stan Brown wrote: > Tamim wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>AC wrote: >>>Tolkien stated simply that Sauron would, even with his >>>physical form destroyed, been able to carry off the Ring. >> >>Here I agree with Michael. Somehow that statement doesn't fit with the >>rest of the mythology. > The Valar and the Maiar shaped the world originally out of the chaos > that they found when they entered it. Ossë (a Maia like Sauron) was > able to move a big island by force of will. I know, I have read most of the arguments here and this has come up. They seem to have had some kind of a dual role. As "Gods" they shaped the earth but then they had dealings with the small things in life. They talked to Eldar and Mortals, they picked up swords and fought them, they made rings and carried them. When they did these things they had a body, and for some reason even the evil Ainur took bodies when interfering with the affairs of the eruhini. There had to be a reason (benefits), because having a body also subjects you to harm. If you can lift a sword and kill your enemies withouth having a body and thus being out of the harms way, why have a body? >Why should Sauron have > had any trouble with a tiny piece of metal? Because it was tiny. ksnip ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 13 May 2003 09:32:27 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305130832.37073aa4@posting.google.com> References: <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090604.4a153478@posting.google.com> <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052843547 22828 127.0.0.1 (13 May 2003 16:32:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 16:32:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117088 Tamim wrote in message news:... > AC wrote: >> Tolkien stated simply >> that Sauron would, even with his physical form destroyed, been able to carry >> off the Ring. > Here I agree with Michael. Somehow that statement doesn't fit with the > rest of the mythology. How not? Where is it ever written that Ainur could not move physical objects when they were incorporeal? How did they shape the world in the first place? When it comes right down to it THIS seems to be the primary reason for resistance to the idea that Sauron had the Ring in Numenor and carried it back as a spirit... the idea that he should not be able to interact with matter. However, I really don't see anything in ANY of the texts which suggests that incorporeal Ainur could not affect the material world. Just the opposite. The Ainur were not like 'ghosts'... normally physical beings thrust into an unfamiliar world. The Ainur were spirits in origin and powerful enough to move mountains - literally. To me it is like saying that if Eru is a spirit being in origin HE would be unable to move a small golden ring. > There's another possibility: his body might have been killed, but somehow > in that short time he re-embodied and then carried the ring over the sea. The texts seem to indicate that he reformed in Mordor, and his transit is repeatedly described as being 'born upon a dark wind' - which would seem inapropriate if he was physically embodied. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 13 May 2003 09:51:27 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305130851.1e516cb5@posting.google.com> References: <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080507.63c6c909@posting.google.com> <3EBAD978.2F92ACC@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305081137.14100d09@posting.google.com> <3EBB7062.4F0A98A8@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090820.319e39f4@posting.google.com> <3lRua.5042$I56.1152433245@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com> <3EBCC24D.B641C9A5@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120413.24ade99c@posting.google.com> <3EC1612E.234B38BD@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052844687 23867 127.0.0.1 (13 May 2003 16:51:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 16:51:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117093 Michael O'Neill wrote in message news:<3EC1612E.234B38BD@indigo.ie>... > I take your point, but are you classing the Numenorean death as one of a > temporary body? This was the one he had been in since the First Age, > hardly "temporary". No, I was contrasting the 'permanent' embodiments Sauron took on with those of other Ainur. For instance, prior to the whole 'Gandalf' assignment Olorin was said to seldom appear in material form. Based on the quoted texts Olorin temporarily embodying and then returning to spirit form was (apparently) not as taxing as Sauron remaining in a body for centuries and then having it killed. If Sauron HAD been able to just shrug off his physical form and escape out of Numenor as a spirit he would not have been as seriously affected... but I agree that from the texts this does not appear to be what happened. ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:04:48 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3EBB6390.98E78E65@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090604.4a153478@posting.google.com> <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305130832.37073aa4@posting.google.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117070 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:1178b6d1.0305130832.37073aa4@posting.google.com... > Tamim wrote in message news:... > > AC wrote: > > >> Tolkien stated simply > >> that Sauron would, even with his physical form destroyed, been able > to carry > >> off the Ring. > > > Here I agree with Michael. Somehow that statement doesn't fit with the > > rest of the mythology. > > How not? Where is it ever written that Ainur could not move physical > objects when they were incorporeal? How did they shape the world in > the first place? > " Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being." > > The texts seem to indicate that he reformed in Mordor, and his transit > is repeatedly described as being 'born upon a dark wind' - which would > seem inapropriate if he was physically embodied. But how could wind affect anything not physical? Even wind is physical. :-) T.A. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 13 May 2003 17:28:03 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305130832.37073aa4@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1052846883 22488 128.214.205.27 (13 May 2003 17:28:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 17:28:03 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117078 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Tamim wrote in message news:... >> AC wrote: >>> Tolkien stated simply >>> that Sauron would, even with his physical form destroyed, been able > to carry >>> off the Ring. >> Here I agree with Michael. Somehow that statement doesn't fit with the >> rest of the mythology. > How not? Where is it ever written that Ainur could not move physical > objects when they were incorporeal? How did they shape the world in > the first place? > When it comes right down to it THIS seems to be the primary reason for > resistance to the idea that Sauron had the Ring in Numenor and carried > it back as a spirit... the idea that he should not be able to interact > with matter. However, I really don't see anything in ANY of the texts > which suggests that incorporeal Ainur could not affect the material > world. Just the opposite. The Ainur were not like 'ghosts'... > normally physical beings thrust into an unfamiliar world. The Ainur > were spirits in origin and powerful enough to move mountains - > literally. To me it is like saying that if Eru is a spirit being in > origin HE would be unable to move a small golden ring. snip Read my reply to Stan. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:31:28 -0400 Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080507.63c6c909@posting.google.com> <3EBAD978.2F92ACC@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305081137.14100d09@posting.google.com> <3EBB7062.4F0A98A8@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090820.319e39f4@posting.google.com> <3lRua.5042$I56.1152433245@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com> <1178b6d1.0305120406.60c5b4f3@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305121057.734bef96@posting.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVagveVQC+4rUHS9h9PJHFJ/5Pm3f49/Me+WG4lGU2AbzbsAgzx8v8BP X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 19:51:00 GMT In-Reply-To: <1178b6d1.0305121057.734bef96@posting.google.com> X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117049 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Tord Kallqvist Romstad wrote in message news:... > >>conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes: > >>>Also note that this indicates that Sauron (and the other Ainur) were >>>ALL bound within the world until the end... > >>Didn't Gandalf leave Arda after he was killed in the fight with the >>balrog? > > Yes, but then nobody ever said that Eru couldn't break his own rules. :) The Gandalf episode was the exception that proves the rule! -- FotW The Official Return of the King Protest Site http://members.aol.com/rotkprotest/ ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:32:22 -0400 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3EB9E36C.E3B72C68@indigo.ie> <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080507.63c6c909@posting.google.com> <3EBAD978.2F92ACC@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305081137.14100d09@posting.google.com> <3EBB7062.4F0A98A8@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090820.319e39f4@posting.google.com> <3lRua.5042$I56.1152433245@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com> <1178b6d1.0305120406.60c5b4f3@posting.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYqEOpOcL4hdCDPFXztHPzk/NX/kROMD1l5aq84mObas6V6S08gtj8Q X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 19:51:01 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeds.sol.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117050 AC wrote: >>Didn't Gandalf leave Arda after he was killed in the fight with the >>balrog? > > That was a special intervention by Eru. I thought that *sending him back* was the special intervention by Eru. -- FotW The Official Return of the King Protest Site http://members.aol.com/rotkprotest/ ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:33:36 -0400 Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080507.63c6c909@posting.google.com> <3EBAD978.2F92ACC@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305081137.14100d09@posting.google.com> <3EBB7062.4F0A98A8@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090820.319e39f4@posting.google.com> <3lRua.5042$I56.1152433245@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com> <1178b6d1.0305120406.60c5b4f3@posting.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa89qpDeQ1oQ2m4tlk2w622Lpj84j2sknPbe2fx7Z+khsuygXFfME3V X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 19:51:02 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed7!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117051 AC wrote: > "[Gandalf] was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or > govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the > moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back for a brief time, until > my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the Gods' > whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he > 'passed out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant > just literally, 'Unclothed like a child' (not disincarnate), and so > ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is > not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than > physical healing and refreshment." > Letter #156 Clearly an erroneous letter! -- FotW The Official Return of the King Protest Site http://members.aol.com/rotkprotest/ ###### From: "Matthew Bladen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:46:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305050602.37bf253d@posting.google.com> <3EB84945.F80703A1@indigo.ie> <3EB9E36C.E3B72C68@indigo.ie> <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305130141.590d45fd@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-132-107-135.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: titan.btinternet.com 1052848004 17777 81.132.107.135 (13 May 2003 17:46:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:46:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117067 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:1178b6d1.0305130141.590d45fd@posting.google.com... > Flame of the West wrote in message news:... > Overall I think all the texts have to be taken into account... no > source can be said to ALWAYS 'top' another. Even LotR contains errors > - such as the two different durations given for Aragorn's life. Do you mean 190 years vs. 210 years (Appendix A vs. Appendix B)? In the most recent copy I own, Appendix A has been emended so that it too reads 210 years. However, there has been no corresponding emendation of the last king to reach such an age from Arvegil to Celebrindor (who also lived to be 210, going by HoME 12). -- Matthew ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... References: <3EB9E36C.E3B72C68@indigo.ie> <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080507.63c6c909@posting.google.com> <3EBAD978.2F92ACC@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305081137.14100d09@posting.google.com> <3EBB7062.4F0A98A8@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090820.319e39f4@posting.google.com> <3lRua.5042$I56.1152433245@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com> <1178b6d1.0305120406.60c5b4f3@posting.google.com> Organization: The Tao of Cow Reply-To: maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:56:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!69.22.128.15.MISMATCH!newsfeeder2.randori.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117054 On Tue, 13 May 2003 13:32:22 -0400, Flame of the West wrote: > AC wrote: > >>>Didn't Gandalf leave Arda after he was killed in the fight with the >>>balrog? >> >> That was a special intervention by Eru. > > I thought that *sending him back* was the special > intervention by Eru. The Ainur that entered Ea were bound to it until the End. Without divine intervention, there is no reason at all to believe that Gandalf would have been any different than Sauron or any other Ainur that had been killed. The only beings that actually departed were Men. -- A. Clausen maureen-taocow-ng1@alberni.net ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 13 May 2003 20:10:31 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1052856631 28292 128.214.205.27 (13 May 2003 20:10:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 20:10:31 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117080 Morgil wrote: snip > It's quite a stretch I admit, but we know that > the Ring makes it's wearer invisible by > transfering him into the shadow-world. > Including all the clothes and weapons he is > carrying, *and* including the Ring itself. We > also know that powerful Ringbearer could > make the Rings invisible for the eyes of > others. Perhaps the answer is simply that > when the Ring was in this shadow-form, the > normal laws of physics did not affect it in > the usual way. Yay me! :) snip That's the answer for me at least. Thank you, you are a genius. ###### Message-ID: <3EC1612E.234B38BD@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... References: <3EB9E36C.E3B72C68@indigo.ie> <3EBA0D2B.4B168DF6@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305080507.63c6c909@posting.google.com> <3EBAD978.2F92ACC@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305081137.14100d09@posting.google.com> <3EBB7062.4F0A98A8@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305090820.319e39f4@posting.google.com> <3lRua.5042$I56.1152433245@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com> <3EBCC24D.B641C9A5@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120413.24ade99c@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 45 Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:18:38 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.173.31 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1052831932 194.125.173.31 (Tue, 13 May 2003 14:18:52 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:18:52 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117108 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > Michael O'Neill wrote in message news:<3EBCC24D.B641C9A5@indigo.ie>... > > TradeSurplus wrote: > > >> If so, then Sauron's spirit would presumably have had more power > after > >> voluntarily leaving a body than after being killed by the Last > >> Alliance. > > > That sounds like rank speculation. Nowhere are we informed on this > > matter. > > "After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while > to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I > suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy > of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link > between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its > imagination)." > Letters #200 > > "So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these > later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil > deeds, and if these bodies > were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had > rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could > continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed.' (Pengolodh > here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he > fled at last from Middle-earth.)" > VT 39, Osanwe-kenta note 5 > > These texts indicate that if an Ainur had become bound into a body > then having that body destroyed was a traumatic experience... they > could not just form a new body/change shape like they were trying on > different clothing (as Sauron did earlier in the confrontation with > Huan). Instead it took alot of time and energy to rebuild. There was > definitely a difference between Ainur voluntarily unmaking a temporary > body and having a 'permanent' (bound) one 'killed'. I take your point, but are you classing the Numenorean death as one of a temporary body? This was the one he had been in since the First Age, hardly "temporary". He was taken by surprise, all texts agree on that. If not he could have shape-changed and flown to safety. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose Pharazon backed down... Date: 13 May 2003 14:45:39 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305131345.75ce0795@posting.google.com> References: <3EBC38E0.4C4F7BCA@indigo.ie> <3EBD09AB.FDD23319@indigo.ie> <3EBD63E5.D9871A8D@indigo.ie> <1178b6d1.0305120918.516207d3@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052862339 6089 127.0.0.1 (13 May 2003 21:45:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2003 21:45:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117091 Tamim wrote in message news:... > When they did these things they had a body, and for some reason even the > evil Ainur took bodies when interfering with the affairs of the eruhini. > There had to be a reason (benefits), because having a body also subjects > you to harm. > If you can lift a sword and kill your enemies withouth having a body and > thus being out of the harms way, why have a body? I think the primary reasons mentioned in the texts are; Taking on physical form was a means of 'being closer to the Eruhini'. Taking on physical form apparently allowed greater control over matter. It would also just be somewhat odd.... Melkor: "Bow before me puny mortals!" Puny mortals: "Uh.... where are you AT again?" :) ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 14 May 2003 07:50:41 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 118 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052923841 19960 127.0.0.1 (14 May 2003 14:50:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 May 2003 14:50:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117154 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:... > Middle-earth was never "finished", and knowing Tolkien's fondness > for tinkering with his tales they might never have converged on a > final form no matter how long he had lived. Heh. Indeed, a single overarching consistency seemed to become LESS attainable as time went by and his ideas continued to evolve and grow. > Those assumptions can persist through _The Hobbit_, _The Lord of the > Rings_, and _The Silmarillion_, but are quickly shattered by _Unfinished > Tales_ and the History of Middle-earth books. There are discrepancies before then, but I agree that they are small enough that they are often overlooked and certainly do not place any serious strain on the 'illusion of internal consistency' even when noted. > Once a reader becomes aware of the question of "canonicity", > several general responses are common. Some people abandon the idea of > a "true" Middle-earth entirely and simply enjoy observing Tolkien's > process of creation. That is a very reasonable choice, and I will not > fault anyone who decides that reading this essay would be a waste of > their time. Among those who still hope to explore a "true" > Middle-earth, some treat Tolkien's latest version of any given story > as the canonical one. Some choose one reference (typically _The Lord > of the Rings_) as absolutely canonical and judge Tolkien's other > writings by their consistency with it. And some choose canonical > texts based on their personal impression of which "feels right". You may want to leave room for 'other methods' in here. For instance, some people treat the three early works you listed previously (TH, LotR & Silm) as canon because they were published (and read) first. Others evaluate not so much on what 'feels right' as what they think Tolkien intended based on the preponderance of evidence. Others may exclude particular works. Et cetera. > (The essay "The Problem of Ros" in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ is a > classic example: Tolkien rejected most of it himself for this very > reason.) As others have noted, this is not so clear cut... the parts derived directly from the rejected linguistic concept are obviously in jeopardy, but that text ranged about quite a bit. > 1. "The inner consistency of reality" > 2. Consistent with published texts > 3. Preserves the general structure of the mythology > 4. Based on Tolkien's latest and best developed statements > 5. Makes a satisfying and enjoyable story > 6. Provides as much information as possible Overall I tend to view canonicity as a 'weighting' applied to any given text. The idea of a single consistent canon of the mythology is largely foreign to my mindset. I tend to view it more like actual mythology... where you can often read the same tale in several different variations. All are equally 'valid' versions of the myth... they just have varying degrees of 'consistency' with other related tales. That said, I think these are reasonable guidelines for the stated goal. I'd probably put Tolkien's 'most developed' (NOT neccessarily latest) ideas higher in the list as I tend to view that as one of the strongest indicators of 'canon'... well developed ideas perforce have some 'consistency' with a broad spectrum of the entire mythic thread. > Just as the heart of Niggle's country was the Tree, the heart of > Tolkien's Parish would be the stories of _The Lord of the Rings_ and > the other writings Tolkien published while he lived, but perfectly > executed, "as he had imagined them rather than as he had made them." Yet Tolkien imagined LotR several different ways while it was growing and even after it had been completed. The same can be said for TH. It is also of course true that while Niggle knew what he had imagined WE have no way of knowing what was in Tolkien's mind that did not make it to paper. > Because some of Tolkien's latest writings included attempts to > remove all references to a flat earth before the sun and moon, it is > less clear that Tolkien would have chosen in the end to "preserve the > general structure of the mythology." Indeed, changes were made to The Hobbit to move away from that early cosmology... but then how to connect to the earlier mythology? > Tolkien considered these changes in order to make Middle-earth's > nature and history closer to that of the real world, but he might have > reconsidered once he realized that no realistic connection to true > history was possible. I tend to hope so because so much of the mythology is inconsistent with the late 'real world' cosmology. > What value, then, does this concept have for us as fans and readers? > First, it provides a common framework for discussions about Middle-earth > that makes the role of personal preference clear. Many heated debates > could be more polite and productive if the participants understood > each other's assumptions. I'd think this would only work if everyone adopted the idea of an 'ideal' Middle-earth sought after by some set of rules such as you describe above. I think more of 'parallel Middle-earths' and others have argued that they were sequential. I agree that what you describe is what Tolkien was seeking... but not what he achieved. > In the end, though, the greatest benefit of imagining Middle-earth > as Tolkien's Parish is the joy of exploring a true Secondary World. The way he built it was certainly in keeping with Niggle and there are large portions of the world which are clearly defined. Around the edges it tends to fray and split into infinite possibilities. In keeping with the 'parish' concept I might suggest trying to build outwards... identify the clearly defined portions and then attach other bits of the world as far into the past and future of the total development as they could extend. Of course, this is not unlike what Christopher attempted to do with 'The Silmarillion' - and eventually you run into a need to compromise or excise beautiful portions of the story. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 106 Message-ID: <2L_wa.48$K4.8895@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1053063230 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 16 May 2003 00:33:50 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:33:50 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 2L_wa-15246-K4-9099@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 6d2275f9 a69946e1 654ff2e7 c83ff816 550e0ced Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 05:33:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117287 Quoth sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) in article : > Quoth Tar-Elenion : > > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > > Certainly if Tolkien bases a discussion on a "flawed" premise... > > > the conclusions that follow are not reliable. (The essay "The > > > Problem of Ros"... is a classic example: Tolkien rejected most > > > of it himself for this very reason.) > > Granted JRRT did note on the text in question "most of this > > fails". But that does not necessarily mean that all (or most) of the > > 'facts' presented are unreliable. In essence the Problem of Ros is a > > linguistic essay, and what 'fails' is specifically the proposed (or > > possible) solution to the percieved linguistic problem JRRT sought > > to resolve. > But it goes beyond that, at least as far as I recall (it's been some > time since I read that essay... or for that matter, since I wrote > the above paragraph!). Ok, I've now reread "The Problem of Ros" in PoMe. I'll agree that the statement in my essay may have overstated the situation a little, but I stand by the general claim. The essay, as many of you recall, was inspired by Tolkien's discomfort with the two totally unrelated meanings of the Sindarin word element "-ros": it was used both for "red" (hair) as in "Maedhros" and for "spray, foam" as in "Elros". He wrote "It is difficult to accept these two homophonic elements - of unconnected, indeed unconnectable, meanings". In this essay, he explored the idea of removing the conflict by making the "spray" definition a relic of the human language of Beren and Beor. He described a detailed historical backstory related to "ros". And then, after writing this fascinating material, he "noted on the text that 'most of this fails', because of the name _Cair Andros_", which was Sindarin and had been translated with the "foam" meaning in LotR. The objection that Tar-Elenion (and Conrad) have raised to the statement in my essay is that while this attempt to explain the two meanings of "-ros" "failed", that doesn't necessarily cast doubt on the wide-ranging historical information that Tolkien related in the essay. As I said above, I used wording that was too strong: "not reliable" should probably be replaced by "less reliable". However, I honestly do think that most of the content of the essay, historical and linguistic, was ultimately based on the idea that "ros" was a Beorian word. As Christopher said of his father's late writings in the introduction to this essay, "the linguistic history and the 'legendarium' became less and less separable." So let's trace the flow of Tolkien's thoughts in the essay, which I think can be done with at least some confidence. He began with the idea that "-ros" in "Elros" was Beorian, while "El-" was still Sindarin. Why would Elros have been named in such an odd way? Well, his mother Elwing's name also contained an unusual element: "-wing" appears only here and in "Vingilot". It, too, could be removed to the Beorian tongue, and dual-language names like this could be presented as a family tradition among Beren and Luthien's descendants. That means, of course, that Dior would have had to know (and love) both Sindarin and Beorian, and therefore it leads to the conclusion that Beren and Luthien must have kept Beren's language alive (Dior wouldn't have learned it from anyone else!). But why would the Atani have even had a word for the foam of the waves if they only reached the Sea after meeting the Elves? They must have lived on the shores of a great inland sea for some time to develop such a word. But because the Adunaic translation of "Vingilot" was "Rothinzil" (Tolkien seemed determined to keep this; it had been used in "The Drowning of Anadune" and elsewhere), the word "wing" for "spray" must not have been part of the most common speech of the Edain (that of the folk of Hador) but rather from the less common Beorian language. Thus, the ancestors of Beor's folk must have had more of a need for such a word than the other Atani. All those conclusions seem pretty natural, given the existing names and history and the assumption that "ros" was a Beorian word. And what I've said above summarizes the content of "The Problem of Ros" pretty well, though Tolkien fleshed it out considerably. My point is that without the initial idea that "ros" was not Sindarin, none of those ideas would have arisen. In particular, this essay includes the first and possibly only mention of the sojourn of the Atani beside an inland sea (probably Rhun), and I doubt that idea would have arisen at all if Tolkien hadn't been looking for an explanation for why their language had a word for ocean waves. Now, it's entirely possible that Tolkein decided (or would have decided) that this history was worthwhile even after the linguistic concept that inspired it was removed. But it's clear at least that it wouldn't have been as firmly settled in his mind once the "evidence" for it was removed, and I could easily see him moving the whole story away from an inland sea and into a forest if he'd later needed a Beorian word that meant "glade" or something. :) At any rate, given the intimate relationship between the linguistic inspiration and the history in this essay, it would not take much evidence at all to convince me that Tolkien's comment "most of this fails" applied to the whole thing, not just its attempt to answer a linguistic puzzle. At the very least, I think it would be very reasonable to put less weight on the essay's "groundless history" when constructing a "canonical" Middle-earth: include them for completeness, sure, but defer to other texts when there were conflicts. That's my take, anyway, and it's what I was trying to convey (very briefly) in my essay. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <2L_wa.48$K4.8895@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 172 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1053103045 12.236.164.115 (Fri, 16 May 2003 16:37:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:37:25 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:37:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117298 In article <2L_wa.48$K4.8895@news.uchicago.edu>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > Quoth sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) in article > : > > Quoth Tar-Elenion : > > > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > > > Certainly if Tolkien bases a discussion on a "flawed" premise... > > > > the conclusions that follow are not reliable. (The essay "The > > > > Problem of Ros"... is a classic example: Tolkien rejected most > > > > of it himself for this very reason.) > > > > Granted JRRT did note on the text in question "most of this > > > fails". But that does not necessarily mean that all (or most) of the > > > 'facts' presented are unreliable. In essence the Problem of Ros is a > > > linguistic essay, and what 'fails' is specifically the proposed (or > > > possible) solution to the percieved linguistic problem JRRT sought > > > to resolve. > > > But it goes beyond that, at least as far as I recall (it's been some > > time since I read that essay... or for that matter, since I wrote > > the above paragraph!). > > Ok, I've now reread "The Problem of Ros" in PoMe. I'll agree that the > statement in my essay may have overstated the situation a little, but > I stand by the general claim. > > The essay, as many of you recall, was inspired by Tolkien's discomfort > with the two totally unrelated meanings of the Sindarin word element > "-ros": it was used both for "red" (hair) as in "Maedhros" and for > "spray, foam" as in "Elros". He wrote "It is difficult to accept > these two homophonic elements - of unconnected, indeed unconnectable, > meanings". In this essay, he explored the idea of removing the > conflict by making the "spray" definition a relic of the human > language of Beren and Beor. He described a detailed historical > backstory related to "ros". And then, after writing this fascinating > material, he "noted on the text that 'most of this fails', because of > the name _Cair Andros_", which was Sindarin and had been translated > with the "foam" meaning in LotR. > > The objection that Tar-Elenion (and Conrad) have raised to the > statement in my essay is that while this attempt to explain the two > meanings of "-ros" "failed", that doesn't necessarily cast doubt on > the wide-ranging historical information that Tolkien related in the > essay. As I said above, I used wording that was too strong: "not > reliable" should probably be replaced by "less reliable". However, I > honestly do think that most of the content of the essay, historical > and linguistic, was ultimately based on the idea that "ros" was a > Beorian word. As Christopher said of his father's late writings in > the introduction to this essay, "the linguistic history and the > 'legendarium' became less and less separable." I agree, "less reliable" would have been a better choice. If JRRT had recalled that "-ros" had already appeared in print, he very well may never have written this essay (certainly not in the form it is in), though using that, or the "most of this fails", as an excuse to simply dismiss completely the information found in it (as some others are wont to do) would lack something in credibility. > > > So let's trace the flow of Tolkien's thoughts in the essay, which I > think can be done with at least some confidence. He began with the > idea that "-ros" in "Elros" was Beorian, while "El-" was still > Sindarin. Why would Elros have been named in such an odd way? Well, > his mother Elwing's name also contained an unusual element: "-wing" > appears only here and in "Vingilot". It, too, could be removed to the > Beorian tongue, and dual-language names like this could be presented > as a family tradition among Beren and Luthien's descendants. This, of course, being essentially 'what fails'. > > That means, of course, that Dior would have had to know (and love) > both Sindarin and Beorian, and therefore it leads to the conclusion > that Beren and Luthien must have kept Beren's language alive (Dior > wouldn't have learned it from anyone else!). This is one of the 'historical' elements of the essay that I favour, and find no contradiction for. This I find quite credible: "Lúthien learned Beren's native tongue during their long journeys together and ever after used it in their speech together. Not long before they came at last back to the borders of Doriath he asked her why she did so, since her own tongue was richer and more beautiful. Then she became silent and her eyes seemed to look far away before she answered: 'Why? Because I must forsake thee, or else forsake my own people and become one of the children of Men. Since I will never forsake thee, I must learn the speech of thy kin, and mine.' Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues; his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath." If we are, in fact, to accept that Dior's son, Eluréd, was so named, and his name combined the two languages, then that Dior knew both Sindarin and Beorin is a given. > > But why would the Atani have even had a word for the foam of the waves > if they only reached the Sea after meeting the Elves? They must have > lived on the shores of a great inland sea for some time to develop > such a word. But because the Adunaic translation of "Vingilot" was > "Rothinzil" (Tolkien seemed determined to keep this; it had been used > in "The Drowning of Anadune" and elsewhere), the word "wing" for > "spray" must not have been part of the most common speech of the Edain > (that of the folk of Hador) but rather from the less common Beorian > language. Thus, the ancestors of Beor's folk must have had more of a > need for such a word than the other Atani. > > > All those conclusions seem pretty natural, given the existing names > and history and the assumption that "ros" was a Beorian word. And > what I've said above summarizes the content of "The Problem of Ros" > pretty well, though Tolkien fleshed it out considerably. My point is > that without the initial idea that "ros" was not Sindarin, none of > those ideas would have arisen. In particular, this essay includes the > first and possibly only mention of the sojourn of the Atani beside an > inland sea (probably Rhun), and I doubt that idea would have arisen at > all if Tolkien hadn't been looking for an explanation for why their > language had a word for ocean waves. While I do not recall any specific mention of this 'sojourn' elsewhere, I also do not recall any contradiction, there may even be some support in 'Dwarves and Men' wherein it is noted: "When the First Age ended and Beleriand was destroyed, and most of the Atani who survived had passed over sea to Númenor, their laggard kindred were either in Eriador, some settled, some still wandering, or else had never passed the Misty Mountains and were scattered in the lands between the Iron Hills and the Sea of Rhûn eastward and the Great Forest, in the borders of which, northward and eastward, many were already settled." > > Now, it's entirely possible that Tolkien decided (or would have > decided) that this history was worthwhile even after the linguistic > concept that inspired it was removed. But it's clear at least that it > wouldn't have been as firmly settled in his mind once the "evidence" > for it was removed, and I could easily see him moving the whole story > away from an inland sea and into a forest if he'd later needed a > Beorian word that meant "glade" or something. :) You almost seem to suggest the possibility that JRRT might consider changing his mind about something... ;) > > At any rate, given the intimate relationship between the linguistic > inspiration and the history in this essay, it would not take much > evidence at all to convince me that Tolkien's comment "most of this > fails" applied to the whole thing, not just its attempt to answer a > linguistic puzzle. At the very least, I think it would be very > reasonable to put less weight on the essay's "groundless history" when > constructing a "canonical" Middle-earth: include them for > completeness, sure, but defer to other texts when there were > conflicts. That's my take, anyway, and it's what I was trying to > convey (very briefly) in my essay. > Steuard Jensen > I look at it rather in this way: We have various 'historical facts' presented, for example: Lúthien and Dior speaking both Sindarin and Beorin. Eluréd and Elurín being the names of Dior's sons. Elrond being named in memory of the Menelrond. Elrond and Elros as prophetic mother-names. The dwelling of the Hadorians and Beorians beside the Sea of Rhun. Elrond and Elros being born while Earendil was at sea. Thingol having little love for the Northern Sindar. What support do these 'facts' have elsewhere and what contradictions? After determining this then decide whether to dismiss the individual items as 'failing' or to keep them as credible. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <2L_wa.48$K4.8895@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 130 Message-ID: <7Jdxa.68$K4.12140@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1053124547 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 16 May 2003 17:35:47 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:35:47 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 7Jdxa-21473-K4-12053@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: f6d69631 c56b9578 b6a2b13c 2b826dc8 111664f9 Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 22:35:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117330 Quoth Tar-Elenion in article : > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > I honestly do think that most of the content of the essay, > > historical and linguistic, was ultimately based on the idea that > > "ros" was a Beorian word. ... > > That means, of course, that Dior would have had to know (and love) > > both Sindarin and Beorian, and therefore it leads to the > > conclusion that Beren and Luthien must have kept Beren's language > > alive (Dior wouldn't have learned it from anyone else!). > This is one of the 'historical' elements of the essay that I favour, > and find no contradiction for. This I find quite credible: "Lúthien > learned Beren's native tongue during their long journeys together > and ever after used it in their speech together. ..." I agree that it's credible. But if Dior cared so much about the two languages, why did he name his children in pure Elvish? (At least two out of three, and possibly all three; see below.) And if he didn't really care about the Beorian tongue enough to name his children in it, wouldn't that imply that his parents _didn't_ speak it regularly? I'm not saying that I do reject this passage, but its conclusions certainly aren't as "natural" as they would have been if "-ros" were Beorian. Personally, I'd place this in the category of historical elements that Tolkien probably liked and would eventually tried to tie in to the overall story. > If we are, in fact, to accept that Dior's son, Eluréd, was so named, > and his name combined the two languages, then that Dior knew both > Sindarin and Beorin is a given. But why are we to accept that? I seem to recall that one of the footnotes in the essay included Christopher mentioning that this essay was the source for those names as used in _The Silmarillion_, and I don't know of any other (though I could easily have forgotten one). My impression was that Tolkien came up with new names for Dior's sons specifically to fit the premise of this essay. If "Elwing" was pure Elvish (possibly in Ossiriandic dialect), then why make up a new name for one of Dior's sons that wasn't? Again, I'm not saying that Tolkien _did_ throw them out, but if he didn't then they would _cause_ an oddity that needed to be explained instead of helping to remove one. > > In particular, this essay includes the first and possibly only > > mention of the sojourn of the Atani beside an inland sea (probably > > Rhun), and I doubt that idea would have arisen at all if Tolkien > > hadn't been looking for an explanation for why their language had > > a word for ocean waves. > While I do not recall any specific mention of this 'sojourn' > elsewhere, I also do not recall any contradiction... Oh, absolutely. I don't think there _is_ a contradiction anywhere, and I suspect that this idea is one that Tolkien would almost certainly have incorporated firmly into the story eventually. But again, if you look at the notes on the essay, it becomes clear that the precise details of the history that Tolkien describes here are slightly inconsistent with other texts. For example, while "The Problem of Ros" states that the "Lesser Folk" (the people of Beor) arrived in Beleriand many years before the "Greater Folk" (those of Marach), other texts make that delay much briefer, around three years. > ... there may even be some support in 'Dwarves and Men'...: > "When the First Age ended and Beleriand was destroyed, and most of > the Atani who survived had passed over sea to Númenor, their laggard > kindred were either in Eriador, some settled, some still wandering, > or else had never passed the Misty Mountains and were scattered in > the lands between the Iron Hills and the Sea of Rhûn eastward and > the Great Forest, in the borders of which, northward and eastward, > many were already settled." That's support, yes, but it's not nearly as specific as the comments in "The Problem of Ros". I think everyone would accept that some of the remaining Atani were scattered around east of what would be Mirkwood. The question is whether they were clumped on the northeast shore of the Sea of Rhun (as I recall), where they sailed on the storm-swept waters. And on such specifics, "Of Dwarves and Men" is largely silent. > > At the very least, I think it would be very reasonable to put less > > weight on the essay's "groundless history" when constructing a > > "canonical" Middle-earth: include them for completeness, sure, but > > defer to other texts when there were conflicts. > I look at it rather in this way: > We have various 'historical facts' presented, for example: > Lúthien and Dior speaking both Sindarin and Beorin. I agree, but it wasn't well tied to the rest of the story. > Eluréd and Elurín being the names of Dior's sons. Which might well have been changed to avoid introducing a unique "Sindarin/Beorian" hybrid name into the story. > Elrond being named in memory of the Menelrond. > Elrond and Elros as prophetic mother-names. Very reasonable, and not the sort of thing that would have been tied tightly to other story elements in any case. > The dwelling of the Hadorians and Beorians beside the Sea of Rhun. A really cool idea which probably would have been kept, but for which there was no longer any real "evidence" from the languages. > Elrond and Elros being born while Earendil was at sea. Was that only from this essay? Seems likely, in any case. > Thingol having little love for the Northern Sindar. Also seems reasonable, and not strongly tied to "-ros", as far as I recall. > What support do these 'facts' have elsewhere and what > contradictions? After determining this then decide whether to > dismiss the individual items as 'failing' or to keep them as > credible. I agree with your suggested approach entirely. I'm just saying that because the underlying rationale for some of these "facts" had been removed, I would give those less weight if I did find that they contradicted something else. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <2L_wa.48$K4.8895@news.uchicago.edu> <7Jdxa.68$K4.12140@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 192 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1053131360 12.236.164.115 (Sat, 17 May 2003 00:29:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 00:29:20 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 00:29:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117358 In article <7Jdxa.68$K4.12140@news.uchicago.edu>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > Quoth Tar-Elenion in article > : > > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > > I honestly do think that most of the content of the essay, > > > historical and linguistic, was ultimately based on the idea that > > > "ros" was a Beorian word. > ... > > > > That means, of course, that Dior would have had to know (and love) > > > both Sindarin and Beorian, and therefore it leads to the > > > conclusion that Beren and Luthien must have kept Beren's language > > > alive (Dior wouldn't have learned it from anyone else!). > > > This is one of the 'historical' elements of the essay that I favour, > > and find no contradiction for. This I find quite credible: "Lúthien > > learned Beren's native tongue during their long journeys together > > and ever after used it in their speech together. ..." > > I agree that it's credible. But if Dior cared so much about the two > languages, why did he name his children in pure Elvish? (At least two > out of three, and possibly all three; see below.) And if he didn't > really care about the Beorian tongue enough to name his children in > it, wouldn't that imply that his parents _didn't_ speak it regularly? > I'm not saying that I do reject this passage, but its conclusions > certainly aren't as "natural" as they would have been if "-ros" were > Beorian. Personally, I'd place this in the category of historical > elements that Tolkien probably liked and would eventually tried to tie > in to the overall story. > > > If we are, in fact, to accept that Dior's son, Eluréd, was so named, > > and his name combined the two languages, then that Dior knew both > > Sindarin and Beorin is a given. > > But why are we to accept that? I seem to recall that one of the > footnotes in the essay included Christopher mentioning that this essay > was the source for those names as used in _The Silmarillion_, and I > don't know of any other (though I could easily have forgotten one). > My impression was that Tolkien came up with new names for Dior's sons > specifically to fit the premise of this essay. If "Elwing" was pure > Elvish (possibly in Ossiriandic dialect), then why make up a new name > for one of Dior's sons that wasn't? Again, I'm not saying that > Tolkien _did_ throw them out, but if he didn't then they would _cause_ > an oddity that needed to be explained instead of helping to remove one. I don't think there are any other places that those names are used, though CT notes that there are 'several texts' dealing with the '-ros' issue of which the essay in PoME is the "most notable", so it is possible that those names appear in the other unpublished texts as well (perhaps we will be treated to them by the VT folks at some point). We, of course, do not know if "Elwing" was 'pure Elvish', the Ossiriandic origin is presented in Shibboleth as speculation rather than fact, I do not recall its etymology being given elsewhere (although Letter 211 translates it as "Elf-foam", see below). An interesting solution might have been to have the three names each have a different origin (Beorin, Doriathrin, and Ossiriandic). > > > > In particular, this essay includes the first and possibly only > > > mention of the sojourn of the Atani beside an inland sea (probably > > > Rhun), and I doubt that idea would have arisen at all if Tolkien > > > hadn't been looking for an explanation for why their language had > > > a word for ocean waves. > > > While I do not recall any specific mention of this 'sojourn' > > elsewhere, I also do not recall any contradiction... > > Oh, absolutely. I don't think there _is_ a contradiction anywhere, > and I suspect that this idea is one that Tolkien would almost > certainly have incorporated firmly into the story eventually. But > again, if you look at the notes on the essay, it becomes clear that > the precise details of the history that Tolkien describes here are > slightly inconsistent with other texts. For example, while "The > Problem of Ros" states that the "Lesser Folk" (the people of Beor) > arrived in Beleriand many years before the "Greater Folk" (those of > Marach), other texts make that delay much briefer, around three > years. Agree. > > > > ... there may even be some support in 'Dwarves and Men'...: > > > "When the First Age ended and Beleriand was destroyed, and most of > > the Atani who survived had passed over sea to Númenor, their laggard > > kindred were either in Eriador, some settled, some still wandering, > > or else had never passed the Misty Mountains and were scattered in > > the lands between the Iron Hills and the Sea of Rhûn eastward and > > the Great Forest, in the borders of which, northward and eastward, > > many were already settled." > > That's support, yes, but it's not nearly as specific as the comments > in "The Problem of Ros". I think everyone would accept that some of > the remaining Atani were scattered around east of what would be > Mirkwood. The question is whether they were clumped on the northeast > shore of the Sea of Rhun (as I recall), where they sailed on the > storm-swept waters. And on such specifics, "Of Dwarves and Men" is > largely silent. > > > > At the very least, I think it would be very reasonable to put less > > > weight on the essay's "groundless history" when constructing a > > > "canonical" Middle-earth: include them for completeness, sure, but > > > defer to other texts when there were conflicts. > > > I look at it rather in this way: > > We have various 'historical facts' presented, for example: > > Lúthien and Dior speaking both Sindarin and Beorin. > > I agree, but it wasn't well tied to the rest of the story. > > > Eluréd and Elurín being the names of Dior's sons. > > Which might well have been changed to avoid introducing a unique > "Sindarin/Beorian" hybrid name into the story. Possibly, JRRT did change their names with some regularity. > > > Elrond being named in memory of the Menelrond. > > Elrond and Elros as prophetic mother-names. > > Very reasonable, and not the sort of thing that would have been tied > tightly to other story elements in any case. But contradicted elsewhere, for example Letter 211: "Elrond, Elros. *rondo was a prim[itive] Elvish word for 'cavern'. Cf. Nargothrond (fortified cavern by the R. Narog), Aglarond, etc. *rosse meant 'dew, spray (of fall or fountain)'. Elrond and Elros, children of Eärendil (sea-lover) and Elwing (Elf-foam), were so called, because they were carried off by the sons of Fëanor, in the last act of the feud between the high-elven houses of the Noldorin princes concerning the Silmarils; the Silmaril rescued from Morgoth by Beren and Lúthien, and given to King Thingol Lúthien's father, had descended to Elwing dtr. of Dior, son of Lúthien. The infants were not slain, but left like 'babes in the wood', in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water." Which implies that they were named by Maglor or Maedhros). > > > The dwelling of the Hadorians and Beorians beside the Sea of Rhun. > > A really cool idea which probably would have been kept, but for which > there was no longer any real "evidence" from the languages. I think I may be missing your point, the linguistic element has little to do with it (though their divirgent dialects are attested to elsewhere), unless you are emphasizing that if JRRT had not seen a need to find a solution to the 'problem' he may not have considered this at all. > > > Elrond and Elros being born while Earendil was at sea. > > Was that only from this essay? Seems likely, in any case. The latest ToY in in WotJ indicates that Earendil's voyages started in 534 while Elros and Elrond were born in 532, though other versions _may_ have his voyages starting the year they are born or two years before, it is unclear as the entry for Elrond and Elros is added, not original. Of course he could still have been away at sea when they were born. > > > Thingol having little love for the Northern Sindar. > > Also seems reasonable, and not strongly tied to "-ros", as far as I > recall. Reasonable to an extent, though the implication that (some of) the Northern Sindar may have come under Morgoth's sway could be contradicted by some staements in Q&E. > > > What support do these 'facts' have elsewhere and what > > contradictions? After determining this then decide whether to > > dismiss the individual items as 'failing' or to keep them as > > credible. > > I agree with your suggested approach entirely. I'm just saying that > because the underlying rationale for some of these "facts" had been > removed, I would give those less weight if I did find that they > contradicted something else. I agree with this. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 176 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1053190769 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 17 May 2003 11:59:29 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:59:29 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: RTtxa-26917-K4-14029@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: fbf37a41 740a43af c8ff6c00 c57af340 eec5cb26 Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:59:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!newsfeed.cs.wisc.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117333 Quoth conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) in article <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com>: > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > Once a reader becomes aware of the question of "canonicity", > > several general responses are common. ... > You may want to leave room for 'other methods' in here. Good point. I initially meant to write this paragraph as just giving a few common examples, but it ended up not sounding that way. :) I'll fix it when I revise the essay. > Others evaluate not so much on what 'feels right' as what they think > Tolkien intended based on the preponderance of evidence. I think that I had thought of this as a sort of perturbation or combination of some of the methods that I did mention, but as mentioned above I managed to not leave much room for such things in the final version of this paragraph. > > (The essay "The Problem of Ros" in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ > > is a classic example: Tolkien rejected most of it himself for this > > very reason.) > As others have noted, this is not so clear cut... the parts derived > directly from the rejected linguistic concept are obviously in > jeopardy, but that text ranged about quite a bit. I've discussed this elsewhere at some length: I feel that even a lot of the "purely historical" material in the essay loses much of its justification or "evidence" without "-ros" as a Beorian word. > Overall I tend to view canonicity as a 'weighting' applied to any > given text. The idea of a single consistent canon of the mythology > is largely foreign to my mindset. I've got to admit that I don't entirely understand what you're saying here. If you don't have some vague idea of a "finished" Middle-earth in mind, then what does a "weight" mean? It seems like as soon as you say, "I trust A more than B", you're implicitly saying that there's some "truth" out there that A is closer to. Could you explain your thoughts in a little more detail? > I tend to view it more like actual mythology... where you can often > read the same tale in several different variations. All are equally > 'valid' versions of the myth... they just have varying degrees of > 'consistency' with other related tales. But even there, if you're looking for a "maximally (or maximal) consistent mythology", that's a definition of "the true Middle-earth" right there. I completely agree that many different versions can be interesting and enjoyable in their own right, whether one of them fits best in a large consistent structure or not. But it seems that when giving a "weight" for canonicity, you're talking about a specific standard against which you have judged. [moved down for convenience:] > > 1. "The inner consistency of reality" > > 2. Consistent with published texts > > 3. Preserves the general structure of the mythology > > 4. Based on Tolkien's latest and best developed statements > > 5. Makes a satisfying and enjoyable story > > 6. Provides as much information as possible > That said, I think these are reasonable guidelines for the stated > goal. I'd probably put Tolkien's 'most developed' (NOT neccessarily > latest) ideas higher in the list as I tend to view that as one of > the strongest indicators of 'canon'... well developed ideas perforce > have some 'consistency' with a broad spectrum of the entire mythic > thread. Interesting. Maybe I should say "best developed and latest", to give the former a little more priority. :) But I'd point out that Tolkien's "best developed" description of "The Fall of Gondolin" wouldn't be accepted as part of a post-LotR canon by anyone, at least without loads of caveats and reservations. At any rate, I do tend to agree with you that "best developed" is one of the strongest signs of canonicity. I just don't know which of the elements higher in the list I would be willing to demote in order to move it up. (I figure that #3 is probably the most controversial of the top few goals: some folks probably want to throw out the flat-world material in favor of the later round world notion, which did get a fair bit of attention late in Tolkien's life). > > Just as the heart of Niggle's country was the Tree, the heart of > > Tolkien's Parish would be the stories of _The Lord of the Rings_ and > > the other writings Tolkien published while he lived, but perfectly > > executed, "as he had imagined them rather than as he had made them." > Yet Tolkien imagined LotR several different ways while it was > growing and even after it had been completed. The same can be said > for TH. It is also of course true that while Niggle knew what he > had imagined WE have no way of knowing what was in Tolkien's mind > that did not make it to paper. True, and I don't have a good answer to that; the analogy isn't quite perfect, and in this case it does help to point out that a "perfect" canon is completely beyond our ability to create. But mainly in this comment I just meant that we'd fix the typos and maybe a few more significant details, based on evidence in HoMe. (The geography surrounding Bilbo's troll encounter really ought to be fixed, for example.) > > Because some of Tolkien's latest writings included attempts to > > remove all references to a flat earth before the sun and moon, it > > is less clear that Tolkien would have chosen in the end to > > "preserve the general structure of the mythology." > Indeed, changes were made to The Hobbit to move away from that early > cosmology... Really? Now you've got me interested. :) What were those changes? > > Tolkien considered these changes in order to make Middle-earth's > > nature and history closer to that of the real world, but he might > > have reconsidered once he realized that no realistic connection to > > true history was possible. > I tend to hope so because so much of the mythology is inconsistent > with the late 'real world' cosmology. I can't help but think that he would have "come to his senses". :) > > What value, then, does this concept have for us as fans and > > readers? First, it provides a common framework for discussions > > about Middle-earth that makes the role of personal preference > > clear. > I'd think this would only work if everyone adopted the idea of an > 'ideal' Middle-earth sought after by some set of rules such as you > describe above. I think more of 'parallel Middle-earths' and others > have argued that they were sequential. Hmm. On some level, discussions about Tolkien _have_ to include some sort of agreement on how to define "truth". Some discussions dofocus strongly on textual history and Tolkien's vision at specific points in time, but for better or worse they aren't all that common here. And that sort of discussion strikes me as most naturally dealing with story-external issues; for a story-internal discussion, it seems that a definition of "canon" is necessary (possibly multiple "canons", each built to be consistent with a different reference text, but you still need definitions). I guess, though, that the specific LotR-centric description that I've described as "Tolkien's Parish" is very much aimed at finding a "final" version of the legendarium. It might be worth making that clearer. > I agree that what you describe is what Tolkien was seeking... but > not what he achieved. Agreed. > > In the end, though, the greatest benefit of imagining Middle-earth > > as Tolkien's Parish is the joy of exploring a true Secondary World. > In keeping with the 'parish' concept I might suggest trying to build > outwards... identify the clearly defined portions and then attach > other bits of the world as far into the past and future of the total > development as they could extend. What a good description. :) I may use some variation on it in the next version of the essay (I'll give you credit, of course). > Of course, this is not unlike what Christopher attempted to do with > 'The Silmarillion' - and eventually you run into a need to > compromise or excise beautiful portions of the story. But that's inevitable, given what we have. "The Fall of Gondolin" is a beautifully vivid story, but there's no way that it could be included in a post-LotR canon without massive changes. As I said earlier, saying that something is "not canonical" has very little relation to saying that it's "not good" or "not worth reading". Thanks for all your comments! Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <7Jdxa.68$K4.12140@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 40 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1053192171 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 17 May 2003 12:22:51 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:22:51 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: Lduxa-27040-K4-14090@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 2958abcc ed3be4e5 92051760 ff49937c e3740bdc Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:22:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117334 Quoth Tar-Elenion in article : > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > > Quoth Tar-Elenion : > > > Elrond being named in memory of the Menelrond. > > > Elrond and Elros as prophetic mother-names. > > Very reasonable, and not the sort of thing that would have been > > tied tightly to other story elements in any case. > But contradicted elsewhere, for example Letter 211: [snip] > The infants were not slain, but left like 'babes in the wood', in a > cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: > Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water." > Which implies that they were named by Maglor or Maedhros). Ah, I hadn't remembered that. I'd need to look at the question in a good bit more detail to make any sort of decision, naturally. > > > The dwelling of the Hadorians and Beorians beside the Sea of Rhun. > > A really cool idea which probably would have been kept, but for > > which there was no longer any real "evidence" from the languages. > I think I may be missing your point, the linguistic element has > little to do with it (though their divirgent dialects are attested > to elsewhere), unless you are emphasizing that if JRRT had not seen > a need to find a solution to the 'problem' he may not have > considered this at all. That's basically my point: the only reason that Tolkien put those early dwellings right on the shores of the inland sea was to explain the presence of a word for foaming waves in the language. If there's no specific evidence that their language included such a word, then there's no reason to think that they community had settled on the seashore rather than in a forest or on the plains. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 59 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1053193307 12.236.164.115 (Sat, 17 May 2003 17:41:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:41:47 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:41:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!east.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117343 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu says... > Quoth conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) in article > <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com>: > > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > > > > Because some of Tolkien's latest writings included attempts to > > > remove all references to a flat earth before the sun and moon, it > > > is less clear that Tolkien would have chosen in the end to > > > "preserve the general structure of the mythology." > > > Indeed, changes were made to The Hobbit to move away from that early > > cosmology... > > Really? Now you've got me interested. :) What were those changes? > In the revised edition of _The Hobbit_ there is this passage (from Flies and Spiders): The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves _ _ and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before _some_ came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight _of our_ Sun and Moon, _but loved best the stars;_ and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. In the 1937 _The Hobbit_ the passage read thus: The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves _(or Gnomes)_ and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before _they_ came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight _before the raising_ of _the_ Sun and Moon _; and afterwards they wanders in the forests that grew beneath the sunrise. They loved best the edges of the woods,_ and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost." The words (or in one case no words) between the underscores _ _ indicate the changes made by JRRT to brong TH in line with a revised cosmolgy, and in keeping with the always extant Sun and Moon as per LotR. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 04:04:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053317044 68.12.153.42 (Mon, 19 May 2003 00:04:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 00:04:04 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117440 Tar-Elenion writes: > The words (or in one case no words) between the underscores _ _ indicate > the changes made by JRRT to brong TH in line with a revised cosmolgy, and > in keeping with the always extant Sun and Moon as per LotR. As per LotR? Where does LotR suggest that the Sun is anything other than a fruit? (Although I agree that TH, as quoted, does). And: if the sun is not a fruit, why do elves in LotR nevertheless `always' refer to the sun as `she'? Isn't that concept due to the female-maia-in-a-fruit concept of the sun? Jon Cast ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 85 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1053325829 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 19 May 2003 06:30:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 06:30:29 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 06:30:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117420 In article <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > The words (or in one case no words) between the underscores _ _ indicate > > the changes made by JRRT to brong TH in line with a revised cosmolgy, and > > in keeping with the always extant Sun and Moon as per LotR. > > As per LotR? Where does LotR suggest that the Sun is anything other > than a fruit? (Although I agree that TH, as quoted, does). The song Gimli sings in Khazad-dum: "The world was young, the mountains green, No stain yet on the Moon was seen, No words were laid on stream or stone When Durin woke and walked alone. He named the nameless hills and dells; He drank from yet untasted wells; He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, And saw a crown of stars appear, As gems upon a silver thread, Above the shadow of his head. The world was fair, the mountains tall, In Elder Days before the fall Of mighty kings in Nargothrond And Gondolin, who now beyond The Western Seas have passed away: The world was fair in Durin's Day. A king he was on carven throne In many-pillared halls of stone With golden roof and silver floor, And runes of power upon the door. The light of sun and star and moon In shining lamps of crystal hewn Undimmed by cloud or shade of night There shone for ever fair and bright..." When Durin wakes there is an unstained Moon, the lamps of Khazad-dum have the light of both sun and moon in them. However, by the Mannish mythology the Dwarves awoke well before the creation of the Sun and Moon from Fruit and Flower. Galadriel's song in Lorien: "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew: Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew. Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone, In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion. There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years..." Galadriel would find it rather difficult to sing in Ilmarin 'beyond the Sun and Moon', if she left Eldamar before the creation of the Sun and Moon from Fruit and Flower. From the Treebeard chapter in TT: "He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the trees. Old beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of lichen hung from them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the shadows the hobbits peeped, gazing back down the slope: little furtive figures that in the dim light looked like elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood in wonder at their first Dawn." The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves Awakening. They could not have seen their 'first Dawn' if there were no Sun to cause a 'first Dawn'. > > And: if the sun is not a fruit, why do elves in LotR nevertheless > `always' refer to the sun as `she'? Isn't that concept due to the > female-maia-in-a-fruit concept of the sun? Or rather a reference to Arien being the care-taker of the Sun, as she was in the concept of the Sun being created from the Fruit of Laurelin and in the Myths Transformed concept of an always extant Sun (under the varient names Aren, Azie and or Arie). -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 19 May 2003 09:37:44 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053362264 15273 127.0.0.1 (19 May 2003 16:37:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2003 16:37:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117427 Tar-Elenion wrote in message news:... And yet Earendil is apparently still up there in a boat with the Silmaril on his brow; "'In this phial,' she said, 'is caught the light of Earendil's star, set amid the waters of my fountain.'" At that, with the Sun & Moon from the start what need would there be for the Trees? And without the Trees whence the Silmarils? The whole mythology collapses when confronted with a 'scientific' cosmology, but clearly Tolkien was trying to work one in to both The Hobbit and LotR. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 19 May 2003 09:56:24 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 110 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305190856.44706de2@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053363384 16280 127.0.0.1 (19 May 2003 16:56:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2003 16:56:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117421 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:... > I've got to admit that I don't entirely understand what you're saying > here. If you don't have some vague idea of a "finished" Middle-earth > in mind, then what does a "weight" mean? It seems like as soon as you > say, "I trust A more than B", you're implicitly saying that there's > some "truth" out there that A is closer to. Could you explain your > thoughts in a little more detail? I generally use LotR as my 'frame of reference'. From there various texts have more or less 'weight of consistency' / 'canonicity' with the story presented in LotR. However, once we leave the realm of LotR I don't view any of the 'Silmarillion' materials as 'True' no matter HOW consistent with LotR they are. That said, there are alot of details in other texts which help to 'explain' and 'expand' upon LotR (Gandalf's background for instance) that seem clearly to have been the author's intent and thus arguably 'part' of LotR. I suppose the difference is that I tend to view 'canonicity' as texts being more or less consistent with a given frame of reference (usually LotR)... rather than as a measurement of 'Truth' to a single unified Middle-Earth. >> I tend to view it more like actual mythology... where you can often >> read the same tale in several different variations. All are equally >> 'valid' versions of the myth... they just have varying degrees of >> 'consistency' with other related tales. > But even there, if you're looking for a "maximally (or maximal) > consistent mythology", that's a definition of "the true Middle-earth" > right there. But I'm not. I don't think a 'maximally consistent mythology' can be constructed without either excising or rewriting alot of the mythological spectrum. > Interesting. Maybe I should say "best developed and latest", to give > the former a little more priority. :) But I'd point out that Tolkien's > "best developed" description of "The Fall of Gondolin" wouldn't be > accepted as part of a post-LotR canon by anyone, at least without > loads of caveats and reservations. And yet it is the ONLY version which can be considered to have ANY 'canonicity'... because no others exist. There is very little consistency with LotR, but there is >some< and no other text with MORE. Too, 'Fall of Gondolin' is much more consistent with other texts of the same time period and many of those are more consistent with LotR or texts it was developed from... all of the stories are interconnected. >> Indeed, changes were made to The Hobbit to move away from that early >> cosmology... > Really? Now you've got me interested. :) What were those changes? See Tar-Elenion's answer on this issue. > Hmm. On some level, discussions about Tolkien _have_ to include some > sort of agreement on how to define "truth". Well that's EASY then! The "Truth" is invariably whichever interpretation the current poster favors. :) Seriously though, the very concept of reaching agreement on how to define 'truth' in picking one text (or one interpretation of a text) over another seems even more unattainable than a single unified Middle-Earth mythology. >> In keeping with the 'parish' concept I might suggest trying to build >> outwards... identify the clearly defined portions and then attach >> other bits of the world as far into the past and future of the total >> development as they could extend. > What a good description. :) I may use some variation on it in the > next version of the essay (I'll give you credit, of course). S'ok. In some sense I think this is largely what we have done as a community... while LotR does not state so it is commonly accepted here that Gandalf was a Maia. However, that need not be the case and you always run the danger of someone coming along and challenging that assessment (such as the recent 'Gandalf was human' theory). No matter how 'solid' an explanation may seem it is really only an agreement of like-minded individuals... someone else can come in with a completely different explanation and NOT accept the same 'process' for weighing which view is canonical. We can build and expand a 'view' of Middle-Earth, but it is never going to be a universally accepted view - and the further it extends the greater the discord. >> Of course, this is not unlike what Christopher attempted to do with >> 'The Silmarillion' - and eventually you run into a need to >> compromise or excise beautiful portions of the story. > But that's inevitable, given what we have. I'm suggesting that instead of excising material or making compromises to make things 'fit' into a seeming whole it is possible to accept two different versions of a story as equally 'correct' and 'valid'. They are valid for different times and concepts within the overall mythology, but within that context they are accurate. I'd rather include 'Fall of Gondolin' as part of 'the LotR mythology' with the understanding that it has inconsistencies than cut those inconsistencies (or the whole story) out. ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:33:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053383604 68.12.153.42 (Mon, 19 May 2003 18:33:24 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:33:24 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117446 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > > > The Trees are necessary to supply light to Aman which is covered > > > with the Dome of Varda (shielding it from the Great Darkness, > > > IIRC). Hence the Silmarils still come from the light of the Trees. > > > > So has Aman always been in outer space in this version, or what? If > > so, how do you manage the flight of the Noldor? > > > > The 'removal' of Aman does not take take place place until after the > Downfall of Numenor, which is some three thousand+ years after the flight > of the Noldor. That's nice to know. So, in what sense is Aman `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'? Jon Cast ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1053384622 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 19 May 2003 22:50:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:50:22 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:50:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117445 In article <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > In article <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Trees are necessary to supply light to Aman which is covered > > > > with the Dome of Varda (shielding it from the Great Darkness, > > > > IIRC). Hence the Silmarils still come from the light of the Trees. > > > > > > So has Aman always been in outer space in this version, or what? If > > > so, how do you manage the flight of the Noldor? > > > > > > > The 'removal' of Aman does not take take place place until after the > > Downfall of Numenor, which is some three thousand+ years after the flight > > of the Noldor. > > That's nice to know. So, in what sense is Aman `beyond the Sun, > beyond the Moon'? > > Jon Cast > The Sun and Moon were on the other side of the Dome of Varda, for one. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 20 May 2003 05:03:17 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 52 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305200403.5c2a8fa2@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053432197 3609 127.0.0.1 (20 May 2003 12:03:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2003 12:03:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117471 Tar-Elenion wrote in message news:... > I fail to see your point here as this is not the Sun or Moon. Unless this > is a lead in to the next portion... Mostly I was contrasting it to the 'real world cosmology' in general. Tolkien's reasons for moving the Sun and Moon back to the beginning and making the world a sphere from the start were not motivated by any sort of 'story internal' need, but rather to make it in keeping with scientific cosmology. Yet Earendil's Star clearly flies in the face of that cosmology just as much as these other elements. The fact is that the idea of the Sun & Moon being present from the start IS firmly supported by The Hobbit (later printings) and LotR, but the motivations for it would seem to require further changes to the mythology that were NOT updated in the published texts or ever worked out. >> At that, with the Sun & Moon from the start what need would there be >> for the Trees? And without the Trees whence the Silmarils? The whole >> mythology collapses when confronted with a 'scientific' cosmology, but >> clearly Tolkien was trying to work one in to both The Hobbit and LotR. > The Trees are necessary to supply light to Aman which is covered with the > Dome of Varda (shielding it from the Great Darkness, IIRC). Hence the > Silmarils still come from the light of the Trees. The Trees were originally conceived as replacements for the Lamps... and meant to light the whole world. The mountains east of Valinor prevented this, but that was supposed (in various versions) to be remedied when the Trees were rekindled. If the Sun and Moon were present from the start there would seem to be no need for the Trees (or the Lamps for that matter) to also light the world. As to the Trees being needed to light Valinor... didn't Arien rest there before proceeding with her daily journey? Granted, that was pre 'real world' cosmology, but I don't recall it ever being clearly written out. I've never closely studied the later cosmology... is there any clear indication that Valinor did NOT receive any light from the Sun and Moon. And if so... wouldn't that mean they were always in darkness after the Trees died? Tolkien clearly made a firm decision to change the cosmology and wrote it into his published texts. However, he never reconciled it to the earlier years of Middle-Earth... seemingly inconsistent elements of which were ALSO included in the published texts. ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:20:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053458438 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 20 May 2003 15:20:38 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:20:38 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117477 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > That's nice to know. So, in what sense is Aman `beyond the Sun, > > beyond the Moon'? > The Sun and Moon were on the other side of the Dome of Varda, for > one. So you have Earth -- Sun and Moon -- Dome of Varda -- Aman, right? So does the Sun set east of Aman or something? If you're giving a correct picture here, I can see why Tolkien abandoned this cosmology. Jon Cast p.s. I propose we regard these as translation errors or errors on the part of the characters and just go back to assuming the sun-is-a-fruit cosmology. ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:23:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1053458617 65.26.218.54 (Tue, 20 May 2003 14:23:37 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:23:37 CDT Organization: RoadRunner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!news-west.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117466 "Morgil" wrote in message news:badunp$s98tq$1@ID-81911.news.dfncis.de... > > "Tar-Elenion" kirjoitti > viestissä:MPG.19321b3183bdf9a898979f@netnews.attbi.com... > > From the Treebeard chapter in TT: > > "He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the trees. Old > > beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of lichen hung from > > them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the shadows the hobbits > > peeped, gazing back down the slope: little furtive figures that in the > > dim light looked like elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of > > the Wild Wood in wonder at their first Dawn." > > > > The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves > > Awakening. They could not have seen their 'first Dawn' if there were no > > Sun to cause a 'first Dawn'. > > Trebeard is an unreliable source. Gildor's people > sing about "sunless years" and praise Elbereth for > giving them light of stars in the darkness. Yes? I think it helps to remember the meaning of the word 'Eldar', that is 'People of the Stars'. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS http://wedding.weddingchannel.com/pwp/CP_Guest_View.asp?wauid=201309120 ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1053458864 12.236.164.115 (Tue, 20 May 2003 19:27:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:27:44 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:27:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117465 In article , morestelx@hotmail.com says... > > "Tar-Elenion" kirjoitti > viestissä:MPG.19321b3183bdf9a898979f@netnews.attbi.com... > > From the Treebeard chapter in TT: > > "He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the trees. Old > > beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of lichen hung from > > them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the shadows the hobbits > > peeped, gazing back down the slope: little furtive figures that in the > > dim light looked like elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of > > the Wild Wood in wonder at their first Dawn." > > > > The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves > > Awakening. They could not have seen their 'first Dawn' if there were no > > Sun to cause a 'first Dawn'. > > Trebeard is an unreliable source. Gildor's people > sing about "sunless years" and praise Elbereth for > giving them light of stars in the darkness. Yes? > > Morgil > > > When was the Sunless Year? When was the last time Elbereth 'sowed' stars? Check the (story internal) timeline. They are singing about a time before the Awakening. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:57:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053464225 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 20 May 2003 16:57:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:57:05 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117482 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > So you have Earth -- Sun and Moon -- Dome of Varda -- Aman, right? > > So does the Sun set east of Aman or something? > > There is Arda, the Solar System. There is, within Arda, the Sun and > Moon and Imbar (the Earth). On Imbar there is the continent of Endor > (Middle- earth) and that of Aman (the Blessed Realm). To sheild Aman > from the harm wrought by Melkor the Dome of Varda was 'erected' (for > lack of a better word) over Aman. The Sun and Moon are outside the > Dome. That is, the Dome (while it exists) is 'part' of Imbar. So are the Sun and Moon between Lothlorien and Aman or not? > > If you're giving a correct picture here, > > I would suggest reading 'Myths Transformed' in _Morgoth's Ring_ > (HoME 10). You can draw your own conclusions from there. I can't lay my hands on that, right now. > > I can see why Tolkien abandoned this cosmology. > > He did not abandon it, as elements of it come into most all of the > post LotR writings. > > Jon Cast > > > > p.s. I propose we regard these as translation errors or errors on > > the part of the characters and just go back to assuming the > > sun-is-a-fruit cosmology. > > Why? To do so would negate some of the additional depth in the > creation of the mythology. No. There's no `depth' obtained by these twisted manipulations. Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305200403.5c2a8fa2@posting.google.com> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87wuglfhv4.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:00:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053464457 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 20 May 2003 17:00:57 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:00:57 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117481 Tar-Elenion writes: > In the 'real world' cosmology (JRRT being JRRT there are versions of > this as well) the Dome of Varda was erected over Aman to protect it, > on this Dome Varda placed Stars in imitation of real stars (note > this could harken back to the 'Stars that in the Sunless Year' that > Morgil referred to elsewhere) while the Trees were created to light > Aman. After the death of the Trees the Dome was removed and Aman had > sunlight again. See, this is why I think the whole new cosmology was a mistake: you're saying that, at the same time the Valar most understood the threat of Morgoth, and at the same time they were fortifying Valinor, they also removed their previous fortification. Nonsensical. Jon Cast ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 54 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1053465325 12.236.164.115 (Tue, 20 May 2003 21:15:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:15:25 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:15:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117494 In article <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > In article <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > > So you have Earth -- Sun and Moon -- Dome of Varda -- Aman, right? > > > So does the Sun set east of Aman or something? > > > > There is Arda, the Solar System. There is, within Arda, the Sun and > > Moon and Imbar (the Earth). On Imbar there is the continent of Endor > > (Middle- earth) and that of Aman (the Blessed Realm). To sheild Aman > > from the harm wrought by Melkor the Dome of Varda was 'erected' (for > > lack of a better word) over Aman. The Sun and Moon are outside the > > Dome. That is, the Dome (while it exists) is 'part' of Imbar. > > So are the Sun and Moon between Lothlorien and Aman or not? What? Lothlorien is on Imbar (the Earth). Aman is on Imbar (the Earth). The Sun and Moon are in 'outer space'. > > > > If you're giving a correct picture here, > > > > I would suggest reading 'Myths Transformed' in _Morgoth's Ring_ > > (HoME 10). You can draw your own conclusions from there. > > I can't lay my hands on that, right now. > > > > I can see why Tolkien abandoned this cosmology. > > > > He did not abandon it, as elements of it come into most all of the > > post LotR writings. > > > > Jon Cast > > > > > > p.s. I propose we regard these as translation errors or errors on > > > the part of the characters and just go back to assuming the > > > sun-is-a-fruit cosmology. > > > > Why? To do so would negate some of the additional depth in the > > creation of the mythology. > > No. There's no `depth' obtained by these twisted manipulations. Yes, there is. They give further insight into the Legendarium as conceived of by JRRT. If you don't like it or see it that is your choice. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:26:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053465987 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 20 May 2003 17:26:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:26:27 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117478 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > In article <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > > > > > > So you have Earth -- Sun and Moon -- Dome of Varda -- Aman, right? > > > > So does the Sun set east of Aman or something? > > > > > > There is Arda, the Solar System. There is, within Arda, the Sun and > > > Moon and Imbar (the Earth). On Imbar there is the continent of Endor > > > (Middle- earth) and that of Aman (the Blessed Realm). To sheild Aman > > > from the harm wrought by Melkor the Dome of Varda was 'erected' (for > > > lack of a better word) over Aman. The Sun and Moon are outside the > > > Dome. That is, the Dome (while it exists) is 'part' of Imbar. > > > > So are the Sun and Moon between Lothlorien and Aman or not? > > What? Lothlorien is on Imbar (the Earth). Aman is on Imbar (the Earth). > The Sun and Moon are in 'outer space'. But your `proof' that the sun always existed in LotR is Galadriel's phrase `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'. Does this mean Aman is `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon' or not? Jon Cast ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1053469697 12.236.164.115 (Tue, 20 May 2003 22:28:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:28:17 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:28:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117493 In article <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > In article <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > In article <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have Earth -- Sun and Moon -- Dome of Varda -- Aman, right? > > > > > So does the Sun set east of Aman or something? > > > > > > > > There is Arda, the Solar System. There is, within Arda, the Sun and > > > > Moon and Imbar (the Earth). On Imbar there is the continent of Endor > > > > (Middle- earth) and that of Aman (the Blessed Realm). To sheild Aman > > > > from the harm wrought by Melkor the Dome of Varda was 'erected' (for > > > > lack of a better word) over Aman. The Sun and Moon are outside the > > > > Dome. That is, the Dome (while it exists) is 'part' of Imbar. > > > > > > So are the Sun and Moon between Lothlorien and Aman or not? > > > > What? Lothlorien is on Imbar (the Earth). Aman is on Imbar (the Earth). > > The Sun and Moon are in 'outer space'. > > But your `proof' [...] I provided _three_ citations from LotR as my 'proof'. > [...] that the sun always existed in LotR is Galadriel's > phrase `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'. Does this mean Aman is > `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon' or not? I already answered this question several post ago when you asked: "So, in what sense is Aman `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'?" If you are attempting to make some other point, then make it. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305200403.5c2a8fa2@posting.google.com> <87wuglfhv4.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1053470128 12.236.164.115 (Tue, 20 May 2003 22:35:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:35:28 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:35:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117496 In article <87wuglfhv4.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > In the 'real world' cosmology (JRRT being JRRT there are versions of > > this as well) the Dome of Varda was erected over Aman to protect it, > > on this Dome Varda placed Stars in imitation of real stars (note > > this could harken back to the 'Stars that in the Sunless Year' that > > Morgil referred to elsewhere) while the Trees were created to light > > Aman. After the death of the Trees the Dome was removed and Aman had > > sunlight again. > > See, this is why I think the whole new cosmology was a mistake: you're > saying that, at the same time the Valar most understood the threat of > Morgoth, and at the same time they were fortifying Valinor, they also > removed their previous fortification. Nonsensical. > With the placement of the Dome, Valinor needed light, so they made the Trees. When the Trees were killed Valinor needed light so they removed the Dome. Completely nonsensical. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 03:35:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053488150 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 20 May 2003 23:35:50 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:35:50 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117479 Tar-Elenion writes: > > [...] that the sun always existed in LotR is Galadriel's phrase > > `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'. Does this mean Aman is `beyond > > the Sun, beyond the Moon' or not? > I already answered this question several post ago when you asked: > "So, in what sense is Aman `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'?" No, you didn't. You asserted that the Sun is outside the Dome of Varda. However, you did /not/ explain how this means Aman is `beyond the Sun'. Is Aman `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point of Lorien? If not, is it `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point > If you are attempting to make some other point, then make it. If Aman is not `beyond the sun', then you can't use Galadriel's song to argue that, at the time she is singing of, the sun existed. So, your claim that LotR assumes an always-present sun cannot use this premise. Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305200403.5c2a8fa2@posting.google.com> <87wuglfhv4.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87fzn9ezjc.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 03:36:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053488205 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 20 May 2003 23:36:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:36:45 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117480 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87wuglfhv4.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > > > In the 'real world' cosmology (JRRT being JRRT there are versions of > > > this as well) the Dome of Varda was erected over Aman to protect it, > > > on this Dome Varda placed Stars in imitation of real stars (note > > > this could harken back to the 'Stars that in the Sunless Year' that > > > Morgil referred to elsewhere) while the Trees were created to light > > > Aman. After the death of the Trees the Dome was removed and Aman had > > > sunlight again. > > > > See, this is why I think the whole new cosmology was a mistake: you're > > saying that, at the same time the Valar most understood the threat of > > Morgoth, and at the same time they were fortifying Valinor, they also > > removed their previous fortification. Nonsensical. > > > > With the placement of the Dome, Valinor needed light, so they made the > Trees. When the Trees were killed Valinor needed light so they removed > the Dome. Completely nonsensical. But the /purpose/ of the Dome was defense, no? So, when that purpose had been made even more important, they /removed it/? That /is/ nonsensical. Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 95 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 03:57:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053489456 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 20 May 2003 23:57:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:57:36 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117483 Tar-Elenion writes: > The song Gimli sings in Khazad-dum: > "The world was young, the mountains green, > No stain yet on the Moon was seen, > No words were laid on stream or stone > When Durin woke and walked alone. > He named the nameless hills and dells; > He drank from yet untasted wells; > He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, > And saw a crown of stars appear, > As gems upon a silver thread, > Above the shadow of his head. > > The world was fair, the mountains tall, > In Elder Days before the fall > Of mighty kings in Nargothrond > And Gondolin, who now beyond > The Western Seas have passed away: > The world was fair in Durin's Day. > > A king he was on carven throne > In many-pillared halls of stone > With golden roof and silver floor, > And runes of power upon the door. > The light of sun and star and moon > In shining lamps of crystal hewn > Undimmed by cloud or shade of night > There shone for ever fair and bright..." > > When Durin wakes there is an unstained Moon, the lamps of Khazad-dum > have the light of both sun and moon in them. However, by the Mannish > mythology the Dwarves awoke well before the creation of the Sun and > Moon from Fruit and Flower. `Mannish' mythology? Why do you call it that? In any case, the song /cannot/ be literally true: Gimli is claiming Durin awoke before the invention of language. That, IMNSHO, makes the whole song questionable as a source of information. > Galadriel's song in Lorien: > "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew: > Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew. > Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, > And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. > Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone, > In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion. > There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years..." > > Galadriel would find it rather difficult to sing in Ilmarin 'beyond > the Sun and Moon', if she left Eldamar before the creation of the > Sun and Moon from Fruit and Flower. Or if the sun and moon are not between Ilmarin and Lorien. Are they? > From the Treebeard chapter in TT: > "He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the > trees. Old beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of > lichen hung from them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the > shadows the hobbits peeped, gazing back down the slope: little > furtive figures that in the dim light looked like elf-children in > the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood in wonder at their > first Dawn." I can't seem to find this passage. Could you be more specific where exactly it is? > The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves > Awakening. To you. I doubt it. > They could not have seen their 'first Dawn' if there were no Sun to > cause a 'first Dawn'. True. However, there are at least two other possibilities: 1. It's a reference to the first Sun rising in the west, and Silvan or Avari elven children. We know that (in the sun-is-a-fruit cosmology) this is an event of wonder and fear to the Orcs, and wonder to men; I would assume it is an event of wonder to others as well. 2. ``They who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it'', which in the original context refers specifically to children (and `savages'). `Their first dawn' could in this case mean the first dawn they remember, the dawn which became for them The Dawn (as Tolkien says in On Fairy Stories). Jon Cast ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1053492213 12.236.164.115 (Wed, 21 May 2003 04:43:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 04:43:33 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 04:43:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117501 In article <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > [...] that the sun always existed in LotR is Galadriel's phrase > > > `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'. Does this mean Aman is `beyond > > > the Sun, beyond the Moon' or not? > > > I already answered this question several post ago when you asked: > > "So, in what sense is Aman `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'?" > > No, you didn't. You asserted that the Sun is outside the Dome of > Varda. However, you did /not/ explain how this means Aman is `beyond > the Sun'. Is Aman `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point of > Lorien? If not, is it `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point The Sun is 'beyond the vantage point' of Aman. which is where she sang of 'leaves of gold'. Ilmarin is the "there" in the song. That is where the golden tree grew. The song does not say '_before_ the Sun'. > > > If you are attempting to make some other point, then make it. > > If Aman is not `beyond the sun', then you can't use Galadriel's song > to argue that, at the time she is singing of, the sun existed. So, > your claim that LotR assumes an always-present sun cannot use this > premise. Yes, I can. In fact I did. If you don't accept it, that is your problem. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305200403.5c2a8fa2@posting.google.com> <87wuglfhv4.fsf@ou.edu> <87fzn9ezjc.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1053492374 12.236.164.115 (Wed, 21 May 2003 04:46:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 04:46:14 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 04:46:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117502 In article <87fzn9ezjc.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > In article <87wuglfhv4.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the 'real world' cosmology (JRRT being JRRT there are versions of > > > > this as well) the Dome of Varda was erected over Aman to protect it, > > > > on this Dome Varda placed Stars in imitation of real stars (note > > > > this could harken back to the 'Stars that in the Sunless Year' that > > > > Morgil referred to elsewhere) while the Trees were created to light > > > > Aman. After the death of the Trees the Dome was removed and Aman had > > > > sunlight again. > > > > > > See, this is why I think the whole new cosmology was a mistake: you're > > > saying that, at the same time the Valar most understood the threat of > > > Morgoth, and at the same time they were fortifying Valinor, they also > > > removed their previous fortification. Nonsensical. > > > > > > > With the placement of the Dome, Valinor needed light, so they made the > > Trees. When the Trees were killed Valinor needed light so they removed > > the Dome. Completely nonsensical. > > But the /purpose/ of the Dome was defense, no? So, when that purpose > had been made even more important, they /removed it/? That /is/ > nonsensical. Obviously having light in Aman was more important than the Dome, through which no light could come, and with out which light Aman might wither and die. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 143 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1053494146 12.236.164.115 (Wed, 21 May 2003 05:15:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 05:15:46 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 05:15:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117497 In article <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > The song Gimli sings in Khazad-dum: > > "The world was young, the mountains green, > > No stain yet on the Moon was seen, > > No words were laid on stream or stone > > When Durin woke and walked alone. > > He named the nameless hills and dells; > > He drank from yet untasted wells; > > He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, > > And saw a crown of stars appear, > > As gems upon a silver thread, > > Above the shadow of his head. > > > > The world was fair, the mountains tall, > > In Elder Days before the fall > > Of mighty kings in Nargothrond > > And Gondolin, who now beyond > > The Western Seas have passed away: > > The world was fair in Durin's Day. > > > > A king he was on carven throne > > In many-pillared halls of stone > > With golden roof and silver floor, > > And runes of power upon the door. > > The light of sun and star and moon > > In shining lamps of crystal hewn > > Undimmed by cloud or shade of night > > There shone for ever fair and bright..." > > > > When Durin wakes there is an unstained Moon, the lamps of Khazad-dum > > have the light of both sun and moon in them. However, by the Mannish > > mythology the Dwarves awoke well before the creation of the Sun and > > Moon from Fruit and Flower. > > `Mannish' mythology? Why do you call it that? Because JRRT says "the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair": "It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Fëanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf- friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas." Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, section I > > In any case, the song /cannot/ be literally true: Gimli is claiming > Durin awoke before the invention of language. That, IMNSHO, makes the > whole song questionable as a source of information. Try reading the song again. It says nothing about Durin waking before the invention of language. > > > Galadriel's song in Lorien: > > "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew: > > Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew. > > Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, > > And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. > > Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone, > > In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion. > > There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years..." > > > > Galadriel would find it rather difficult to sing in Ilmarin 'beyond > > the Sun and Moon', if she left Eldamar before the creation of the > > Sun and Moon from Fruit and Flower. > > Or if the sun and moon are not between Ilmarin and Lorien. Are they? What has Lorien to do with Galadriel 'singing of leaves of gold' in Ilmarin? Galadriel did not know of Lorien when she was in Ilmarin. It happened before the departure of the Noldor. > > > From the Treebeard chapter in TT: > > "He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the > > trees. Old beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of > > lichen hung from them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the > > shadows the hobbits peeped, gazing back down the slope: little > > furtive figures that in the dim light looked like elf-children in > > the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood in wonder at their > > first Dawn." > > I can't seem to find this passage. Could you be more specific where > exactly it is? The Two Towers, Chapter IV, Treebeard. Tell me which edition you use, and I may be able to give you a page number. > > > The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves > > Awakening. > > To you. I doubt it. How surprising. > > > They could not have seen their 'first Dawn' if there were no Sun to > > cause a 'first Dawn'. > > True. However, there are at least two other possibilities: > > 1. It's a reference to the first Sun rising in the west, and Silvan or > Avari elven children. We know that (in the sun-is-a-fruit > cosmology) this is an event of wonder and fear to the Orcs, and > wonder to men; I would assume it is an event of wonder to others as > well. It makes more sence that it is a reference to the original Awakening of the Elves. Especially since given the other passages cited (the song of Durin, Galadriel's song, and the passage from The Hobbit) which all indicate a 'pre-existing' Sun. > > 2. ``They who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it'', > which in the original context refers specifically to children (and > `savages'). `Their first dawn' could in this case mean the first > dawn they remember, the dawn which became for them The Dawn (as > Tolkien says in On Fairy Stories). > > > > Jon Cast > -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Lines: 71 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.75.109 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1053509965 213.101.75.109 (Wed, 21 May 2003 11:39:25 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:39:25 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-75-109.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:40:30 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed2.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117488 "Jon Cast" wrote: > > > > The song Gimli sings in Khazad-dum: > > "The world was young, the mountains green, > > No stain yet on the Moon was seen, > > No words were laid on stream or stone > > When Durin woke and walked alone. > > He named the nameless hills and dells; > > He drank from yet untasted wells; > > He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, > > And saw a crown of stars appear, > > As gems upon a silver thread, > > Above the shadow of his head. > > [snip] > In any case, the song /cannot/ be literally true: Gimli is claiming > Durin awoke before the invention of language. That, IMNSHO, makes the > whole song questionable as a source of information. The song doesn't claim that Durin awoke before the invention of language, just that he "named the nameless hills and dells". All that need indicate is that the area where he awoke had never had any inhabitants before. And of course, Aulë had provided the Dwarves with a language - "a proper jaw-cracker", as Sam put it, at that. [snip] > > > Galadriel would find it rather difficult to sing in Ilmarin 'beyond > > the Sun and Moon', if she left Eldamar before the creation of the > > Sun and Moon from Fruit and Flower. > > Or if the sun and moon are not between Ilmarin and Lorien. Are they? I think you are quibbling here. If there is any conscious cosmology here, it surely indicates that Eldamar is *beyond* the sun and the moon. I believe with Conrad that Tolkien did not really think through every physical aspect of his world when he wrote LotR, and that he tried to patch things up afterwards in avrious comments and letters. But it is the *book* that really matters. > > From the Treebeard chapter in TT: > > "He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the > > trees. Old beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of > > lichen hung from them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the > > shadows the hobbits peeped, gazing back down the slope: little > > furtive figures that in the dim light looked like elf-children in > > the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood in wonder at their > > first Dawn." > > I can't seem to find this passage. Could you be more specific where > exactly it is? Actually, it is from the end of the previous chapoter, "The Uruk-hai", and the "he" who leads the way is not Treebeard but Merry. It is the beginning of the sixth paragraph from the end. > > The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves > > Awakening. > > To you. I doubt it. I think it is probably impossible to know quite what Tolkien meant. It is a lovely passage, which is what really matters. Öjevind ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 21 May 2003 04:53:54 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 52 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305210353.45838173@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305200403.5c2a8fa2@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053518035 5988 127.0.0.1 (21 May 2003 11:53:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 2003 11:53:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117490 Tar-Elenion wrote in message news:... > In the 'real world' cosmology (JRRT being JRRT there are versions of this > as well) the Dome of Varda was erected over Aman to protect it, on this > Dome Varda placed Stars in imitation of real stars (note this could > harken back to the 'Stars that in the Sunless Year' that Morgil referred > to elsewhere) while the Trees were created to light Aman. After the death > of the Trees the Dome was removed and Aman had sunlight again. That 'fits' pretty well for preserving most of the history under the revised cosmology, but I still see inconsistencies that were never ironed out; The original version of Bombadil's 'who am I' speech was; "I am an Aborigine, that's what I am, the Aborgine of this land. Mark my words, my merry friends: Tom was here before the River or the Trees. Tom remembers the first acorn and the first rain-drop. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving. He was here before the kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passes westward Tom was here already--before the seas were bent. He saw the Sun rise in the West and the Moon following, before the new order of days was made. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside." (VI:121) This was changed in the published form to; "Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my young friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was already here, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from outside." FotR, In the House of Tom Bombadil The bit about the Sun, Moon and new order of days was removed. Presumably to comply with the new cosmology... but he still refers to 'the dark under the stars when it was fearless'. This clearly hearkens back to a time in the mythology when only the stars lit the world. We can redefine it as just speaking of normal 'night time' under the new cosmology, but then there is still "before the seas were bent". What can this possibly be in reference to except the reshaping of the world from flat to spherical? Which supposedly didn't happen any more. Likewise with Earendil's Star. Tolkien decided to redo the cosmology while working on LotR and made changes to his drafts of it and the published form of The Hobbit as a result... but those changes were not extensive enough to wipe out all trace of the earlier cosmology. And thus the published books actually have a strange mixture of the two. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 21 May 2003 05:49:02 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305210449.2ffe6e62@posting.google.com> References: <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053521343 8593 127.0.0.1 (21 May 2003 12:49:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 2003 12:49:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117503 Jon Cast wrote in message news:<87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu>... > Is Aman `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point of Lorien? Is it possible that some of the confusion here is due to different use of the name 'Lorien'? Are you referring to the region where Galadriel dwelt (aka 'Lothlorien') or the dwelling of the Vala Irmo? Both are called 'Lorien'. Galadriel's home was in Middle-earth and thus not 'beyond the Sun and Moon'. Irmo's dwelling was in Aman and thus 'beyond the Sun and Moon' during the time of the Trees under the later cosmology. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 21 May 2003 06:14:38 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 34 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305210514.7c98bb0@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053522879 10036 127.0.0.1 (21 May 2003 13:14:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 2003 13:14:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117498 Tar-Elenion wrote in message news:... > Because JRRT says "the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair": > "It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a > 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's > ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the > demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and > loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of > understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions > (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Fëanor) handed > on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but > already far back - from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf- > friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own > Mannish myths and cosmic ideas." > Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, section I This explanation has always seemed strained to me. There was too close an association between the Edain and Elves for too many years for them to have developed such 'wrong-headed' views. Especially of events primarily involving the Elves. How could the story of the Awakening at Cuivienen, Long March, life in Aman, revolt of the Noldor, et cetera be a 'mannish myth'? They learned about all of that FROM the Elves. Things could certainly become distorted over time, but for the Numenoreans to have such an incorrect understanding of the world seems improbable. Nor does the concept work very well in application... if these are mannish myths of history and creation why are the early parts all about Elves? Why do they have so much detail about Feanor and virtually nothing about their own ancestors prior to arriving in Beleriand? The answer is of course that this was an explanation Tolkien was trying to impose 'after the fact'. There is no way that it can be a clean fit and re-working the mythology to make it so would have been a massive undertaking. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1053527924 12.236.164.115 (Wed, 21 May 2003 14:38:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:38:44 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:38:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117500 In article , tar_elenion@hotmail.com says... > In article <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > From the Treebeard chapter in TT: > > > "He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the > > > trees. Old beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of > > > lichen hung from them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the > > > shadows the hobbits peeped, gazing back down the slope: little > > > furtive figures that in the dim light looked like elf-children in > > > the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood in wonder at their > > > first Dawn." > > > > I can't seem to find this passage. Could you be more specific where > > exactly it is? > > The Two Towers, Chapter IV, Treebeard. Tell me which edition you use, and > I may be able to give you a page number. > My apologies. Ojevind is correct, the passage is from the Uruk-hai chapter, and the 'he' is Merry (thats what I get for cutting and pasting from elsewhere). -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305210514.7c98bb0@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 52 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1053533791 12.236.164.115 (Wed, 21 May 2003 16:16:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:16:31 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:16:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117492 In article <1178b6d1.0305210514.7c98bb0@posting.google.com>, conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net says... > Tar-Elenion wrote in message news:... > > > Because JRRT says "the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair": > > "It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a > > 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's > > ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the > > demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and > > loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of > > understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions > > (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Fëanor) handed > > on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but > > already far back - from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf- > > friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own > > Mannish myths and cosmic ideas." > > Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, section I > > This explanation has always seemed strained to me. There was too > close an association between the Edain and Elves for too many years > for them to have developed such 'wrong-headed' views. Especially of > events primarily involving the Elves. How could the story of the > Awakening at Cuivienen, Long March, life in Aman, revolt of the > Noldor, et cetera be a 'mannish myth'? They learned about all of that > FROM the Elves. Things could certainly become distorted over time, > but for the Numenoreans to have such an incorrect understanding of the > world seems improbable. Nor does the concept work very well in > application... if these are mannish myths of history and creation why > are the early parts all about Elves? Why do they have so much detail > about Feanor and virtually nothing about their own ancestors prior to > arriving in Beleriand? I don't think all of it would have been relegated to being purely 'mannish myth'. It would have been a (confusing) blend of the two. The development of 'wrong-headed ideas' might seem more understandable considering the 1000's of years of time passing in which myths and ideas could become confused, lost, and/or changed. Still your answer to your question...: > > The answer is of course that this was an explanation Tolkien was > trying to impose 'after the fact'. There is no way that it can be a > clean fit and re-working the mythology to make it so would have been a > massive undertaking. > ...seems quite accurate. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth X-Nntp-Posting-Host: qew.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2003May22.005229.11630@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> Date: 22 May 2003 04:52:29 GMT Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117525 In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: >The song Gimli sings in Khazad-dum: >"The world was young, the mountains green, > No stain yet on the Moon was seen, [...] > >When Durin wakes there is an unstained Moon, Just to be Annoying Logic Guy, the nonexistence of moon-stains does not imply the existence of a moon. >From the Treebeard chapter in TT: >"He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the trees. Old >beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of lichen hung from >them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the shadows the hobbits >peeped, gazing back down the slope: little furtive figures that in the >dim light looked like elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of >the Wild Wood in wonder at their first Dawn." > >The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves >Awakening. I don't see any reason to suppose that it refers to that at all. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth X-Nntp-Posting-Host: qew.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2003May22.005927.12066@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305190856.44706de2@posting.google.com> Date: 22 May 2003 04:59:27 GMT Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117526 In article <1178b6d1.0305190856.44706de2@posting.google.com>, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >In some sense I think this is largely what we have done as a >community... while LotR does not state so it is commonly accepted here >that Gandalf was a Maia. However, that need not be the case and you >always run the danger of someone coming along and challenging that >assessment (such as the recent 'Gandalf was human' theory). As an aside, when I first heard about the Wizards being Maiar I thought it contradicted Saruman's speech to Gandalf about how the age of Men was coming, which they would rule. Upon further reflection I realized that it doesn't explicitly say that they're Men, but having Saruman refer to the "world of Men" as "our time" certainly gives one that impression, and I think the passage loses something without that. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <2003May22.005229.11630@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1053581265 12.236.164.115 (Thu, 22 May 2003 05:27:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 05:27:45 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 05:27:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117523 In article <2003May22.005229.11630@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>, tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu says... > In article , > Tar-Elenion wrote: > >The song Gimli sings in Khazad-dum: > >"The world was young, the mountains green, > > No stain yet on the Moon was seen, > [...] > > > >When Durin wakes there is an unstained Moon, > > Just to be Annoying Logic Guy, the nonexistence of moon-stains does not > imply the existence of a moon. > Look at it in context with the other portion of the song. > >From the Treebeard chapter in TT: > >"He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the trees. Old > >beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of lichen hung from > >them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the shadows the hobbits > >peeped, gazing back down the slope: little furtive figures that in the > >dim light looked like elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of > >the Wild Wood in wonder at their first Dawn." > > > >The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves > >Awakening. > > I don't see any reason to suppose that it refers to that at all. > No reason whatsoever? Or you just prefer it otherwise? -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 22 May 2003 05:34:10 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 15 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305190856.44706de2@posting.google.com> <2003May22.005927.12066@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: arctic.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!newsreader.wustl.edu!gumby.it.wmich.edu!aanews.merit.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117521 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Trevor Barrie wrote: : As an aside, when I first heard about the Wizards being Maiar I thought : it contradicted Saruman's speech to Gandalf about how the age of Men : was coming, which they would rule. Upon further reflection I realized : that it doesn't explicitly say that they're Men, but having Saruman : refer to the "world of Men" as "our time" certainly gives one that : impression, and I think the passage loses something without that. It is not clear when exactly Tolkien decided what Gandalf and Saruman really were. There is not much evidence about the evolution of Gandalf in HOME or anything else I have seen. At one point, it seems that Tolkien did intend Gandalf to be human. Perhaps that was still his idea when he wrote the above passage. Stephen ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 22 May 2003 04:15:41 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 48 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305220315.69aa42c5@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305190856.44706de2@posting.google.com> <2003May22.005927.12066@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053602142 7760 127.0.0.1 (22 May 2003 11:15:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2003 11:15:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117533 stephen@nomail.com wrote in message news:... > It is not clear when exactly Tolkien decided what Gandalf and > Saruman really were. There is not much evidence about the evolution > of Gandalf in HOME or anything else I have seen. At one point, it > seems that Tolkien did intend Gandalf to be human. Perhaps that was > still his idea when he wrote the above passage. Actually, I think there is enough evidence on the timing to rule this out; "Wizards = Angels Gandalf to reappear again. How did he escape? This might never be fully explained. He passed through fire - and became the White Wizard. 'I forgot much that I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten.' He has thus acquired something of the awe and terrible power of the Ring-wraiths, only on the good side. Evil things fly from him if he is revealed - when he shines. But he does not as a rule reveal himself. He should have a trial of strength with Saruman. Could the Balrog of the Bridge be in fact Saruman? Or better? as in older sketch Saruman is very affable." ToI, Notes on Various Topics CT says that he considers this the first written appearance of the idea that the Wizards were Ainur. From the text above it can be seen that the other notes in the section come after the Council of Elrond (where Gandalf describes Saruman being affable) and the fight with the Balrog in Moria. The last two lines seem particularly relevant to this issue... Tolkien decided that Gandalf should have a 'trial of strength' with Saruman. Which perforce means that he hadn't written one yet. He then considers ideas on how to do this... first a physical contest and then 'Saruman is very affable' - as he was to Gandalf when he first approached Isengard with the Rohirrim. These seem clearly to indicate that Tolkien had decided the Istari were Maiar before writing Saruman and Gandalf's lines for the confrontation at Orthanc... and indeed, decided the nature of that confrontation in the same passage. That said, I'm not certain that Tolkien ever intended Gandalf to be "human" per se. He indicated that the earliest inspiration for Gandalf was a postcard of a painting showing a German 'mountain spirit'. Now this could have referred only to appearance, but there were some similarities of character as well. It seems clear that Gandalf was not intended to be a Maia from the start, but what he was before then isn't as clear. Human is a reasonable assumption, but not stated anywhere that I can think of offhand. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 22 May 2003 16:23:57 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 29 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305190856.44706de2@posting.google.com> <2003May22.005927.12066@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <1178b6d1.0305220315.69aa42c5@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: arctic.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117522 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Conrad Dunkerson wrote: : That said, I'm not certain that Tolkien ever intended Gandalf to be : "human" per se. He indicated that the earliest inspiration for : Gandalf was a postcard of a painting showing a German 'mountain : spirit'. Now this could have referred only to appearance, but there : were some similarities of character as well. It seems clear that : Gandalf was not intended to be a Maia from the start, but what he was : before then isn't as clear. Human is a reasonable assumption, but not : stated anywhere that I can think of offhand. I was thinking of the outline on page 326 of "The War of the Ring", in the chapter "The Siege of Gondor". "Gandalf says things are still not so bad -- because the W[izard] King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order ... [?from] Numenor. 'So far I have saved myself form him only by flight." To me this implies that both Gandalf and the Wizard (later Witch) King were intended to be from Numenor, and there has never been any suggestion that anyone other than humans were from Numenor, or that the Nazgul were anything but human. Thanks for the other information on Gandalf's evolution. It has been awhile since I have read HOME in its entirety. If I get a chance, I will see if I can figure out how the above fits together with what you posted chronologically. Stephen ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:31:58 -0500 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Jeff MacDonald Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305190856.44706de2@posting.google.com> <2003May22.005927.12066@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:27:11 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.105.72.42 X-Trace: sv3-z4FqugMWol7ewyvgkFABLGXyz1REn5tPH8DSejBOk1bxw+BoHg45HJz2rnqZ9tyUouRrdgfGCus1sbh!HqL/qXsMV3Gdlomol39XEbqSYkLhJAf82kdpCgAt1FJA4flz43ADg8Qy8OcpSr1r9y3+F1Bcrgpf!HJrdoEy/ED79s+uNhUk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117685 In article , stephen@nomail.com wrote: > In rec.arts.books.tolkien Trevor Barrie wrote: >: As an aside, when I first heard about the Wizards being Maiar I thought >: it contradicted Saruman's speech to Gandalf about how the age of Men >: was coming, which they would rule. Upon further reflection I realized >: that it doesn't explicitly say that they're Men, but having Saruman >: refer to the "world of Men" as "our time" certainly gives one that >: impression, and I think the passage loses something without that. > > It is not clear when exactly Tolkien decided what Gandalf and > Saruman really were. There is not much evidence about the evolution > of Gandalf in HOME or anything else I have seen. At one point, it > seems that Tolkien did intend Gandalf to be human. Perhaps that > was still his idea when he wrote the above passage. > IDHTBIFOM, but I'm pretty sure the idea of Gandalf (and presumably the Istari) being mortal (Numenorean?) wizards at least until the early drafts of the RotK. Casts an interesting light on all sorts of passages. -- -- thejeff -- Look before you leap. -- Samuel Butler ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 23 May 2003 05:14:40 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305230414.7d838fe@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305190856.44706de2@posting.google.com> <2003May22.005927.12066@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053692081 13827 127.0.0.1 (23 May 2003 12:14:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 2003 12:14:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117663 Quoting from two related messages; stephen@nomail.com wrote in message news:... > I was thinking of the outline on page 326 of "The War of the Ring", > in the chapter "The Siege of Gondor". > "Gandalf says things are still not so bad -- because the > W[izard] King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is > a renegade of his own order ... [?from] Numenor. 'So far > I have saved myself form him only by flight." Jeff MacDonald wrote in message news:... > IDHTBIFOM, but I'm pretty sure the idea of Gandalf (and presumably the > Istari) being mortal (Numenorean?) wizards at least until the early > drafts of the RotK. Casts an interesting light on all sorts of > passages. Well, Gandalf cannot have been 'Numenorean' from the start because Tolkien did not begin work on his 'time travel' story, from which Numenor evolved, until after he had completed work on The Hobbit. He could not have remained so until RotK because the passage I quoted earlier puts him as an 'angel' during the early work for Two Towers. From these it would seem that at most Gandalf could have been envisioned as Numenorean throughout the work on FotR. Yet even this seems unlikely as Gandalf is very closely associated with Bombadil during the early drafts of FotR while Bombadil is clearly not human. On the other hand, as shown above, the 'W[izard] King' is said to be a member of Gandalf's order in a sketch for part of RotK, and the text MIGHT also indicate that they were 'from Numenor'... though it really isn't clear how big of a gap is represented by the ellipsis there. This COULD mean that Tolkien explored the idea of Gandalf as Numenorean/human towards the end of LotR before going back to the Maia view. Or the WK might have been temporarily elevated as a Maia himself. So, rather a confused mess of things. A reasonable case can be made for Tolkien having viewed Gandalf as 'human' (easier than Numenorean) at some point during the development of the stories, but no timeframes for the start and end of this idea seem apparent except that it was clearly gone by the time LotR was published and under serious question from early in the drafts for FotR onwards. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth X-Nntp-Posting-Host: qew.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2003May23.190331.29636@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <2003May22.005229.11630@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Date: 23 May 2003 23:03:31 GMT Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117633 In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: >> >From the [Uruk-Hai] chapter in TT: >> >"He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the trees. Old >> >beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of lichen hung from >> >them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the shadows the hobbits >> >peeped, gazing back down the slope: little furtive figures that in the >> >dim light looked like elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of >> >the Wild Wood in wonder at their first Dawn." >> > >> >The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves >> >Awakening. >> >> I don't see any reason to suppose that it refers to that at all. > >No reason whatsoever? Or you just prefer it otherwise? No reason whatsoever. Why on Earth would I have a preference? And more to the point, what makes you think it does refer to Cuivienen? ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <2003May22.005229.11630@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <2003May23.190331.29636@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1053737696 12.236.164.115 (Sat, 24 May 2003 00:54:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:54:56 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:54:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117612 In article <2003May23.190331.29636@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>, tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu says... > In article , > Tar-Elenion wrote: > >> >From the [Uruk-Hai] chapter in TT: > >> >"He [Merry] led the way in under the huge branches of the trees. Old > >> >beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of lichen hung from > >> >them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the shadows the hobbits > >> >peeped, gazing back down the slope: little furtive figures that in the > >> >dim light looked like elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of > >> >the Wild Wood in wonder at their first Dawn." > >> > > >> >The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first Elves > >> >Awakening. > >> > >> I don't see any reason to suppose that it refers to that at all. > > > >No reason whatsoever? Or you just prefer it otherwise? > > No reason whatsoever. Why on Earth would I have a preference? That is what I am asking you. Obviously you must have some reason for supposing that it does not (or why are you involving yourself?). > And more > to the point, what makes you think it does refer to Cuivienen? From the general feeling I get of the 'ancientness' that is being referred to ("old beyond guessing", "deeps of time"), there as well as later in the Treebeard chapter, when Treebeard starts talking about the "Great Darkness" and the "old Elves" etc. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 03:50:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053921058 68.12.153.42 (Sun, 25 May 2003 23:50:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:50:58 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117710 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > > > > [...] that the sun always existed in LotR is Galadriel's phrase > > > > `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'. Does this mean Aman is `beyond > > > > the Sun, beyond the Moon' or not? > > > > > I already answered this question several post ago when you asked: > > > "So, in what sense is Aman `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'?" > > > > No, you didn't. You asserted that the Sun is outside the Dome of > > Varda. However, you did /not/ explain how this means Aman is `beyond > > the Sun'. Is Aman `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point of > > Lorien? If not, is it `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point > > The Sun is 'beyond the vantage point' of Aman. which is where she sang of > 'leaves of gold'. Ilmarin is the "there" in the song. That is where the > golden tree grew. The song does not say '_before_ the Sun'. No. Read it again. She says `beyond the Sun'. She's saying Aman is beyond the Sun, not the Sun is beyond Aman. Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305200403.5c2a8fa2@posting.google.com> <87wuglfhv4.fsf@ou.edu> <87fzn9ezjc.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87llwu1hsx.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 03:51:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053921089 68.12.153.42 (Sun, 25 May 2003 23:51:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:51:29 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117550 Tar-Elenion writes: > Obviously having light in Aman was more important than the Dome, > through which no light could come, and with out which light Aman > might wither and die. Then why build the dome? Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305210449.2ffe6e62@posting.google.com> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87he7i1hkf.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 03:56:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053921394 68.12.153.42 (Sun, 25 May 2003 23:56:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:56:34 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117706 conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes: > Jon Cast wrote in message news:<87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu>... > > > Is Aman `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point of Lorien? > > Is it possible that some of the confusion here is due to different use > of the name 'Lorien'? Are you referring to the region where Galadriel > dwelt (aka 'Lothlorien') or the dwelling of the Vala Irmo? Both are > called 'Lorien'. I don't know. Did you think I meant Lorien-in-Aman? I didn't---I meant Lorien-where-Galadriel-is-singing (i.e., the vantage point for her song). > Galadriel's home was in Middle-earth and thus not 'beyond the Sun and > Moon'. > > Irmo's dwelling was in Aman and thus 'beyond the Sun and Moon' during > the time of the Trees under the later cosmology. Really? `Beyond' from which vantage point? Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <2003May22.005229.11630@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <2003May23.190331.29636@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87d6i61hg8.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 03:59:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053921545 68.12.153.42 (Sun, 25 May 2003 23:59:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:59:05 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117698 Tar-Elenion writes: > From the general feeling I get of the 'ancientness' that is being > referred to ("old beyond guessing", "deeps of time"), there as well as > later in the Treebeard chapter, when Treebeard starts talking about the > "Great Darkness" and the "old Elves" etc. I don't think the passage in a later chapter is relevant---too far away. And, even the beginning of the Third Age is ``old beyond guessing'' as far as Hobbits are concerned---cf. Frodo's surprise that Elrond remembers back that far. Jon Cast ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305200403.5c2a8fa2@posting.google.com> <87wuglfhv4.fsf@ou.edu> <87fzn9ezjc.fsf@ou.edu> <87llwu1hsx.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1053922773 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 26 May 2003 04:19:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 04:19:33 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 04:19:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!206.252.192.28.MISMATCH!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.156.MISMATCH!wn12feed!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117679 In article <87llwu1hsx.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > Obviously having light in Aman was more important than the Dome, > > through which no light could come, and with out which light Aman > > might wither and die. > > Then why build the dome? > > Jon Cast > Because they had the Trees to provide the necessary light. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1053923781 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 26 May 2003 04:36:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 04:36:21 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 04:36:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117690 In article <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > In article <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [...] that the sun always existed in LotR is Galadriel's phrase > > > > > `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'. Does this mean Aman is `beyond > > > > > the Sun, beyond the Moon' or not? > > > > > > > I already answered this question several post ago when you asked: > > > > "So, in what sense is Aman `beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon'?" > > > > > > No, you didn't. You asserted that the Sun is outside the Dome of > > > Varda. However, you did /not/ explain how this means Aman is `beyond > > > the Sun'. Is Aman `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point of > > > Lorien? If not, is it `beyond the Sun' from the vantage point > > > > The Sun is 'beyond the vantage point' of Aman. which is where she sang of > > 'leaves of gold'. Ilmarin is the "there" in the song. That is where the > > golden tree grew. The song does not say '_before_ the Sun'. > > No. Read it again. She says `beyond the Sun'. She's saying Aman is > beyond the Sun, not the Sun is beyond Aman. > > Jon Cast > The sun is beyond works both ways. All of which is pointless because there was, according to Galadriel's song, a Sun and Moon when she 'sang of leaves' in Ilmarin. She does not say 'before the Sun'. The in here song, Galadriel clearly mentions the Sun and Moon being in existence when she sang in Ilmarin. That should be quite clear. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 05:09:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053925775 68.12.153.42 (Mon, 26 May 2003 01:09:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 01:09:35 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117547 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > No. Read it again. She says `beyond the Sun'. She's saying Aman > > is beyond the Sun, not the Sun is beyond Aman. > The sun is beyond works both ways. How do you mean? Do you mean `the sun is beyond' means the same as `beyond the sun'? That's not true. > All of which is pointless because there was, according to > Galadriel's song, a Sun and Moon when she 'sang of leaves' in > Ilmarin. She does not say 'before the Sun'. The in here song, > Galadriel clearly mentions the Sun and Moon being in existence when > she sang in Ilmarin. That should be quite clear. It's not. Where again does she say the sun was in existence? Jon Cast ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu> <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1053927645 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 26 May 2003 05:40:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 05:40:45 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 05:40:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117643 In article <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > In article <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > No. Read it again. She says `beyond the Sun'. She's saying Aman > > > is beyond the Sun, not the Sun is beyond Aman. > > > The sun is beyond works both ways. And it was beyond Aman, it was on the other side of the Dome. > > How do you mean? Do you mean `the sun is beyond' means the same as > `beyond the sun'? That's not true. > > > All of which is pointless because there was, according to > > Galadriel's song, a Sun and Moon when she 'sang of leaves' in > > Ilmarin. She does not say 'before the Sun'. The in here song, > > Galadriel clearly mentions the Sun and Moon being in existence when > > she sang in Ilmarin. That should be quite clear. > > It's not. Where again does she say the sun was in existence? > > Jon Cast > Read the song. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <2003May22.005229.11630@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <2003May23.190331.29636@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <87d6i61hg8.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1053930537 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 26 May 2003 06:28:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 06:28:57 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 06:28:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117641 In article <87d6i61hg8.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > From the general feeling I get of the 'ancientness' that is being > > referred to ("old beyond guessing", "deeps of time"), there as well as > > later in the Treebeard chapter, when Treebeard starts talking about the > > "Great Darkness" and the "old Elves" etc. > > I don't think the passage in a later chapter is relevant---too far > away. Your _opinion_ is noted. I, however, do think it is relevant. > And, even the beginning of the Third Age is ``old beyond > guessing'' as far as Hobbits are concerned---cf. Frodo's surprise that > Elrond remembers back that far. Really? Do any of the Hobbits say that the begining of the Third Age is old beyond guessing? Do any of them say that that it is in the deeps of time? By the time Merry and Pippen entered Fangorn the Hobbits had a lot more experience with ancient things. All of which is beside the point that the existence of the Sun and Moon are attested to in LotR before their supposed (or mythological) creation from Flower and Fruit. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 05:01:52 -0400 Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb8frrvnrmRS/V6Zq47+Zz1wJGDDbnLCti7goWm5TS2g3NRiBqBNHvy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 May 2003 10:03:29 GMT In-Reply-To: <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117597 Jon Cast wrote: >>From the Treebeard chapter in TT: >>"He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the >>trees. Old beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards of >>lichen hung from them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out of the >>shadows the hobbits peeped, gazing back down the slope: little >>furtive figures that in the dim light looked like elf-children in >>the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood in wonder at their >>first Dawn." > > > I can't seem to find this passage. Could you be more specific where > exactly it is? 2003 Tolkien calendar, either March or April. ;-) -- FotW The Official Return of the King Protest Site http://members.aol.com/rotkprotest/ ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu> <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87r86lze0l.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:41:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053978090 68.12.153.42 (Mon, 26 May 2003 15:41:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:41:30 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117703 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > In article <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > > > > No. Read it again. She says `beyond the Sun'. She's saying Aman > > > > is beyond the Sun, not the Sun is beyond Aman. > > > > > The sun is beyond works both ways. > > And it was beyond Aman, it was on the other side of the Dome. Galadriel says `beyond the Sun'. Not `the Sun is beyond'. Read the song again. > Read the song. No, you read the song. The relevant lines are: Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. What, in your interpretation, is meant by `beyond the Sun'? Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <2003May22.005229.11630@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <2003May23.190331.29636@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <87d6i61hg8.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87n0h9zdho.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 61 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:52:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053978771 68.12.153.42 (Mon, 26 May 2003 15:52:51 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:52:51 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117708 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87d6i61hg8.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > > > From the general feeling I get of the 'ancientness' that is being > > > referred to ("old beyond guessing", "deeps of time"), there as well as > > > later in the Treebeard chapter, when Treebeard starts talking about the > > > "Great Darkness" and the "old Elves" etc. > > > > I don't think the passage in a later chapter is relevant---too far > > away. > > Your _opinion_ is noted. I, however, do think it is relevant. You are wrong. In any case, how does ``old elves'' enlighten the meaning of ``elf children''? > > And, even the beginning of the Third Age is ``old beyond > > guessing'' as far as Hobbits are concerned---cf. Frodo's surprise > > that Elrond remembers back that far. > > Really? Do any of the Hobbits say that the begining of the Third Age > is old beyond guessing? Is the phrase `old beyond guessing' ever used anywhere else? We have to determine what it means from the general Hobbit sense of history---which for Merry and Pippin, at least, wasn't that great. In any case, I don't see why the two phrases ``old beyond guessing'' and ``deeps of time'' have to refer to the same depth of oldness. > Do any of them say that that it is in the deeps of time? By the > time Merry and Pippen entered Fangorn the Hobbits had a lot more > experience with ancient things. Really? They'd seen a lot of ancient things, but I doubt they'd gotten a better sense of the age of anything. In any case, Fangorn would /feel/ older than, say, Lorien, even if it wasn't, because Lorien was still being up-kept (and restrained from aging by Galadriel's ring), while Fangorn was being run-down. Pippin compares Fangorn to ``the old room in the Great Place of the Tooks away back in the Smials at Tuckborough: a huge place, where the furniture has never been moved or changed for generations.'' Guess which seems older: the old room in Tuckborough, or an even older room in Rivendell that's been kept in good repair> > All of which is beside the point that the existence of the Sun and > Moon are attested to in LotR before their supposed (or mythological) > creation from Flower and Fruit. No, it's not. You have: one source that by no means has to extend back to a time before the destruction of the trees, one source that cannot be interpreted literally, and one source that is neither authorial nor elven, and thus rather unreliable. Hardly a decent attestation. Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <871xylzbzb.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 123 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 20:25:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053980728 68.12.153.42 (Mon, 26 May 2003 16:25:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 16:25:28 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117549 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > `Mannish' mythology? Why do you call it that? > > Because JRRT says "the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' > affair": "It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must > actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in > Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being > tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their > writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to > their measure of understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion > etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon > actors, such as Fëanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in > Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the > first association of the Dúnedain and Elf- friends with the Eldar in > Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and > cosmic ideas." Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, section I Wait a second. You're using Myths Transformed to argue that LotR contradicts the pre-LotR, pre-Myths Transformed mythology? You're not allowed to do that, if you want to show that LotR assumes the Myths Transformed mythology. > > In any case, the song /cannot/ be literally true: Gimli is > > claiming Durin awoke before the invention of language. That, > > IMNSHO, makes the whole song questionable as a source of > > information. > > Try reading the song again. It says nothing about Durin waking > before the invention of language. No words were laid on stream or stone When Durin woke and walked alone. Try inventing language without `laying words on stream or stone'. > > > Galadriel's song in Lorien: > > > "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew: > > > Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew. > > > Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, > > > And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. > > > Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone, > > > In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion. > > > There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years..." > > > > > > Galadriel would find it rather difficult to sing in Ilmarin 'beyond > > > the Sun and Moon', if she left Eldamar before the creation of the > > > Sun and Moon from Fruit and Flower. > > > > Or if the sun and moon are not between Ilmarin and Lorien. Are they? > > What has Lorien to do with Galadriel 'singing of leaves of gold' in > Ilmarin? Galadriel did not know of Lorien when she was in Ilmarin. It > happened before the departure of the Noldor. But Galardriel is singing in Lorien (in LotR). What does `beyond the Sun' mean in this song? I claim it's a meaningless poetic phrase. > > > From the Treebeard chapter in TT: > > > "He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the > > > trees. Old beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards > > > of lichen hung from them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out > > > of the shadows the hobbits peeped, gazing back down the slope: > > > little furtive figures that in the dim light looked like > > > elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood > > > in wonder at their first Dawn." > > > > I can't seem to find this passage. Could you be more specific where > > exactly it is? > > The Two Towers, Chapter IV, Treebeard. Tell me which edition you > use, and I may be able to give you a page number. That's a long chapter, and it's not in that chapter anyway :) It's Houghton Mifflin's revised Edition paperback, ISBN 0-395-27223-8, btw. > > > The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first > > > Elves Awakening. > > > > To you. I doubt it. > > How surprising. I agree. I usually doubt baseless bs. > > > They could not have seen their 'first Dawn' if there were no Sun > > > to cause a 'first Dawn'. > > > > True. However, there are at least two other possibilities: > > > > 1. It's a reference to the first Sun rising in the west, and > > Silvan or Avari elven children. We know that (in the > > sun-is-a-fruit cosmology) this is an event of wonder and fear > > to the Orcs, and wonder to men; I would assume it is an event > > of wonder to others as well. > > It makes more sence that it is a reference to the original Awakening > of the Elves. Especially since given the other passages cited (the > song of Durin, Galadriel's song, Neither of which indicates that the Sun existed before the destruction of the trees. > and the passage from The Hobbit) Which I believe was printed before the LotR was, and so may not be a reliable guide to what Tolkien meant in the LotR. > which all indicate a 'pre-existing' Sun. > > > > > 2. ``They who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it'', > > which in the original context refers specifically to children (and > > `savages'). `Their first dawn' could in this case mean the first > > dawn they remember, the dawn which became for them The Dawn (as > > Tolkien says in On Fairy Stories). Which you failed to address. Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87wugdxx37.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 82 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 20:32:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1053981147 68.12.153.42 (Mon, 26 May 2003 16:32:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 16:32:27 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117711 "Öjevind Lång" writes: > "Jon Cast" wrote: > > > > > > > > The song Gimli sings in Khazad-dum: > > > "The world was young, the mountains green, > > > No stain yet on the Moon was seen, > > > No words were laid on stream or stone > > > When Durin woke and walked alone. > > > He named the nameless hills and dells; > > > He drank from yet untasted wells; > > > He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, > > > And saw a crown of stars appear, > > > As gems upon a silver thread, > > > Above the shadow of his head. > > > > [snip] > > > In any case, the song /cannot/ be literally true: Gimli is claiming > > Durin awoke before the invention of language. That, IMNSHO, makes the > > whole song questionable as a source of information. > > The song doesn't claim that Durin awoke before the invention of > language, No words were laid on stream or stone doesn't mean `before language'? You really believe that? > just that he "named the nameless hills and dells". No, not `just'. > > > Galadriel would find it rather difficult to sing in Ilmarin 'beyond > > > the Sun and Moon', if she left Eldamar before the creation of the > > > Sun and Moon from Fruit and Flower. > > > > Or if the sun and moon are not between Ilmarin and Lorien. Are they? > > I think you are quibbling here. If there is any conscious cosmology > here, it surely indicates that Eldamar is *beyond* the sun and the > moon. Exactly. But `beyond' only works from a point of reference, no? And the statements From point of reference /x/, /y/ is beyond /z/ and /z/ is between /x/ and /y/ are equivalent. So, if from the point of reference of Lorien Eldamar (or Aman) is `beyond' the Sun, it follows that the Sun is between Lorien and Eldamar. Which is nonsense. > I believe with Conrad that Tolkien did not really think through > every physical aspect of his world when he wrote LotR, and that he > tried to patch things up afterwards in avrious comments and > letters. But it is the *book* that really matters. `Matters' for what? For the purposes of story-internal discussions on this ng (the only thing I really care about), I believe Sil and UT matter just as much. In any case, it is not true that LotR /must/ or even /should/ imply that the Sun existed pre-tree-destruction. Tolkien may have intended to revise it to say that, but (from what I've seen) he failed (unlike with tH). > I think it is probably impossible to know quite what Tolkien > meant. It is a lovely passage, which is what really matters. If it's impossible to know what Tolkien meant, you cannot use this passage to argue that in LotR the Sun exists before the destruction of the trees. Jon Cast ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu> <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu> <87r86lze0l.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1053989080 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 26 May 2003 22:44:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:44:40 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:44:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117730 In article <87r86lze0l.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > In article <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > In article <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > > > > > > > No. Read it again. She says `beyond the Sun'. She's saying Aman > > > > > is beyond the Sun, not the Sun is beyond Aman. > > > > > > > The sun is beyond works both ways. > > > > And it was beyond Aman, it was on the other side of the Dome. > > Galadriel says `beyond the Sun'. Not `the Sun is beyond'. Read the > song again. > > > > > Read the song. > > No, you read the song. The relevant lines are: > > Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, > And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. > > What, in your interpretation, is meant by `beyond the Sun'? Already answered. You just do no not like the answer and are now simply 'trolling'. --- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <2003May22.005229.11630@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <2003May23.190331.29636@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <87d6i61hg8.fsf@ou.edu> <87n0h9zdho.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 76 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1053989360 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 26 May 2003 22:49:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:49:20 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:49:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117731 In article <87n0h9zdho.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > In article <87d6i61hg8.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > From the general feeling I get of the 'ancientness' that is being > > > > referred to ("old beyond guessing", "deeps of time"), there as well as > > > > later in the Treebeard chapter, when Treebeard starts talking about the > > > > "Great Darkness" and the "old Elves" etc. > > > > > > I don't think the passage in a later chapter is relevant---too far > > > away. > > > > Your _opinion_ is noted. I, however, do think it is relevant. > > You are wrong. Prove it. > In any case, how does ``old elves'' enlighten the > meaning of ``elf children''? > > > > And, even the beginning of the Third Age is ``old beyond > > > guessing'' as far as Hobbits are concerned---cf. Frodo's surprise > > > that Elrond remembers back that far. > > > > Really? Do any of the Hobbits say that the begining of the Third Age > > is old beyond guessing? > > Is the phrase `old beyond guessing' ever used anywhere else? We have > to determine what it means from the general Hobbit sense of > history---which for Merry and Pippin, at least, wasn't that great. > > In any case, I don't see why the two phrases ``old beyond guessing'' > and ``deeps of time'' have to refer to the same depth of oldness. > > > Do any of them say that that it is in the deeps of time? By the > > time Merry and Pippen entered Fangorn the Hobbits had a lot more > > experience with ancient things. > > Really? They'd seen a lot of ancient things, but I doubt they'd > gotten a better sense of the age of anything. Prove it. > > In any case, Fangorn would /feel/ older than, say, Lorien, even if it > wasn't, because Lorien was still being up-kept (and restrained from > aging by Galadriel's ring), while Fangorn was being run-down. Pippin > compares Fangorn to ``the old room in the Great Place of the Tooks > away back in the Smials at Tuckborough: a huge place, where the > furniture has never been moved or changed for generations.'' Guess > which seems older: the old room in Tuckborough, or an even older room > in Rivendell that's been kept in good repair> > > > All of which is beside the point that the existence of the Sun and > > Moon are attested to in LotR before their supposed (or mythological) > > creation from Flower and Fruit. > > No, it's not. You have: one source that by no means has to extend > back to a time before the destruction of the trees, one source that > cannot be interpreted literally, and one source that is neither > authorial nor elven, and thus rather unreliable. Hardly a decent > attestation. If you can come up with a better attestaion from LotR proving that the Sun and Moon came from Fruit and Flower and only existed after the return of the Noldor then do so. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> <871xylzbzb.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 152 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1053990842 12.236.164.115 (Mon, 26 May 2003 23:14:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:14:02 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:14:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117723 In article <871xylzbzb.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > In article <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > > `Mannish' mythology? Why do you call it that? > > > > Because JRRT says "the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' > > affair": "It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must > > actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in > > Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being > > tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their > > writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to > > their measure of understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion > > etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon > > actors, such as Fëanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in > > Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the > > first association of the Dúnedain and Elf- friends with the Eldar in > > Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and > > cosmic ideas." Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, section I > > Wait a second. You're using Myths Transformed to argue that LotR > contradicts the pre-LotR, pre-Myths Transformed mythology? You're not > allowed to do that, if you want to show that LotR assumes the Myths > Transformed mythology. No, I was using LotR to show that LotR has a pre-existing Sun and Moon. I noted this before I ever read MT. I was using MT to answer your query as to why I referred to something as Mannish Myth (and made a connection between Arien, and Arie, Azie in MT and the 'She' when referring to the Sun). OTOH I don't recall anyone saying you make the rules ("You're not allowed to do that"), and even if someone did, I do not recall agreeing to it. > > > > In any case, the song /cannot/ be literally true: Gimli is > > > claiming Durin awoke before the invention of language. That, > > > IMNSHO, makes the whole song questionable as a source of > > > information. > > > > Try reading the song again. It says nothing about Durin waking > > before the invention of language. > > No words were laid on stream or stone > When Durin woke and walked alone. > > Try inventing language without `laying words on stream or stone'. And then Durin named them (or laid words on them). Perspective from his veiw. > > > > > Galadriel's song in Lorien: > > > > "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew: > > > > Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew. > > > > Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, > > > > And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. > > > > Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone, > > > > In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion. > > > > There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years..." > > > > > > > > Galadriel would find it rather difficult to sing in Ilmarin 'beyond > > > > the Sun and Moon', if she left Eldamar before the creation of the > > > > Sun and Moon from Fruit and Flower. > > > > > > Or if the sun and moon are not between Ilmarin and Lorien. Are they? > > > > What has Lorien to do with Galadriel 'singing of leaves of gold' in > > Ilmarin? Galadriel did not know of Lorien when she was in Ilmarin. It > > happened before the departure of the Noldor. > > But Galardriel is singing in Lorien (in LotR). What does `beyond the > Sun' mean in this song? I claim it's a meaningless poetic phrase. You can 'claim' what you want. It still shows that When Galadriel was singing in Ilmarin there was a Sun and Moon. > > > > > From the Treebeard chapter in TT: > > > > "He [Treebeard] led the way in under the huge branches of the > > > > trees. Old beyond guessing, they seemed. Great trailing beards > > > > of lichen hung from them, blowing and swaying in the breeze. Out > > > > of the shadows the hobbits peeped, gazing back down the slope: > > > > little furtive figures that in the dim light looked like > > > > elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood > > > > in wonder at their first Dawn." > > > > > > I can't seem to find this passage. Could you be more specific where > > > exactly it is? > > > > The Two Towers, Chapter IV, Treebeard. Tell me which edition you > > use, and I may be able to give you a page number. > > That's a long chapter, and it's not in that chapter anyway :) It's > Houghton Mifflin's revised Edition paperback, ISBN 0-395-27223-8, btw. > > > > > The 'elf-children' here seems to be a reference to the first > > > > Elves Awakening. > > > > > > To you. I doubt it. > > > > How surprising. > > I agree. I usually doubt baseless bs. Can you prove anything different? It would actually be simple. But then you are simply trolling now anyways. > > > > > They could not have seen their 'first Dawn' if there were no Sun > > > > to cause a 'first Dawn'. > > > > > > True. However, there are at least two other possibilities: > > > > > > 1. It's a reference to the first Sun rising in the west, and > > > Silvan or Avari elven children. We know that (in the > > > sun-is-a-fruit cosmology) this is an event of wonder and fear > > > to the Orcs, and wonder to men; I would assume it is an event > > > of wonder to others as well. > > > > It makes more sence that it is a reference to the original Awakening > > of the Elves. Especially since given the other passages cited (the > > song of Durin, Galadriel's song, > > Neither of which indicates that the Sun existed before the destruction > of the trees. Sure they do. You just don't lilike the fact, and are simply trolling. > > > and the passage from The Hobbit) > > Which I believe was printed before the LotR was, and so may not be a > reliable guide to what Tolkien meant in the LotR. See 'The Annotated Hobbit'. It gives the changes and dates of those changes. JRRT submitted revisions for The Hobbit in order to bring it more into line with LotR. > > > which all indicate a 'pre-existing' Sun. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu> <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu> <87r86lze0l.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87znl8r463.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:53:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1054036415 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 27 May 2003 07:53:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:53:35 EDT Organization: Cox Communications X-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:53:37 EDT (news1.east.cox.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!central.cox.net!news1.east.cox.net!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:118081 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87r86lze0l.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > In article <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > In article <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Read it again. She says `beyond the Sun'. She's saying Aman > > > > > > is beyond the Sun, not the Sun is beyond Aman. > > > > > > > > > The sun is beyond works both ways. > > > > > > And it was beyond Aman, it was on the other side of the Dome. > > > > Galadriel says `beyond the Sun'. Not `the Sun is beyond'. Read the > > song again. > > > > > > > > > Read the song. > > > > No, you read the song. The relevant lines are: > > > > Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, > > And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. > > > > What, in your interpretation, is meant by `beyond the Sun'? > > Already answered. You just do no not like the answer and are now simply > 'trolling'. No. This is not trolling. You simply have /not/ given a valid answer to this question. Jon Cast Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305190837.58e7ef7d@posting.google.com> <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu> <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu> <87r86lze0l.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87znl8r463.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:53:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1054036415 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 27 May 2003 07:53:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:53:35 EDT Organization: Cox Communications X-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:53:37 EDT (news1.east.cox.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!central.cox.net!news1.east.cox.net!east.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:118081 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <87r86lze0l.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > In article <87znlaz3tf.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > > In article <87ptm61hts.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Read it again. She says `beyond the Sun'. She's saying Aman > > > > > > is beyond the Sun, not the Sun is beyond Aman. > > > > > > > > > The sun is beyond works both ways. > > > > > > And it was beyond Aman, it was on the other side of the Dome. > > > > Galadriel says `beyond the Sun'. Not `the Sun is beyond'. Read the > > song again. > > > > > > > > > Read the song. > > > > No, you read the song. The relevant lines are: > > > > Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, > > And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree. > > > > What, in your interpretation, is meant by `beyond the Sun'? > > Already answered. You just do no not like the answer and are now simply > 'trolling'. No. This is not trolling. You simply have /not/ given a valid answer to this question. Jon Cast ###### Sender: jcast@jcomain Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> <871xylzbzb.fsf@ou.edu> From: Jon Cast Message-ID: <87vfvwr3zj.fsf@ou.edu> Lines: 53 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:57:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.12.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1054036651 68.12.153.42 (Tue, 27 May 2003 07:57:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:57:31 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!206.252.192.28.MISMATCH!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117747 Tar-Elenion writes: > In article <871xylzbzb.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > In article <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > > > > > > > > > > `Mannish' mythology? Why do you call it that? > > > > > > Because JRRT says "the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' > > > affair": "It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must > > > actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in > > > Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being > > > tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their > > > writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to > > > their measure of understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion > > > etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon > > > actors, such as Fëanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in > > > Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the > > > first association of the Dúnedain and Elf- friends with the Eldar in > > > Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and > > > cosmic ideas." Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, section I > > > > Wait a second. You're using Myths Transformed to argue that LotR > > contradicts the pre-LotR, pre-Myths Transformed mythology? You're not > > allowed to do that, if you want to show that LotR assumes the Myths > > Transformed mythology. > > No, I was using LotR to show that LotR has a pre-existing Sun and Moon. I > noted this before I ever read MT. I was using MT to answer your query as > to why I referred to something as Mannish Myth (and made a connection > between Arien, and Arie, Azie in MT and the 'She' when referring to the > Sun). No. You said that, since Durin supposedly awoke when the Moon was in existence, and since according to the `mannish mythology' Durin awoke before the trees were destroyed, the Moon must have been in existence before the trees were destroyed. But the second prong of your argument rests on MT, /not/ on LotR or pre-LotR texts. As such, it is an invalid premise in trying to show a contradiction between LotR and the pre-LotR cosmology. > OTOH I don't recall anyone saying you make the rules ("You're not > allowed to do that"), and even if someone did, I do not recall > agreeing to it. What I was citing was a common, well understood rule of logic, a subject you have obviously never studied. This conversation is over. Jon Cast ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 27 May 2003 05:50:42 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305270450.5975a893@posting.google.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> <871xylzbzb.fsf@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1054039843 7040 127.0.0.1 (27 May 2003 12:50:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 2003 12:50:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117930 Jon Cast wrote in message news:<871xylzbzb.fsf@ou.edu>... > No words were laid on stream or stone > When Durin woke and walked alone. > Try inventing language without `laying words on stream or stone'. Your argument that this suggests that Durin woke before language was invented does not conform with ANY version of the histories. The Dwarves were given language by Aule before they were ever put into slumber. The Ainur themselves had the Valarin speech. The Elves woke and invented their own languages before Durin and his kind arose. Clearly then, if this passage WERE to refer to Durin in a time before language it would be inconsistent with the rest of the history. As such, it seems far more likely to me that this text is intended to mean, 'No NAMES were laid on stream or stone'. That is, none of the geographic features in the area had been named. Presumably because no speaking beings lived there yet. That IS consistent with the history and a perfectly plausible intended meaning for the words above. ###### From: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Date: 27 May 2003 06:27:41 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: <1178b6d1.0305270527.24420789@posting.google.com> References: <87d6iewq8m.fsf@ou.edu> <878yt2wohp.fsf@ou.edu> <87u1bp2ze9.fsf@ou.edu> <871xytgwly.fsf@ou.edu> <87of1xfgoj.fsf@ou.edu> <87k7clezkv.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305210449.2ffe6e62@posting.google.com> <87he7i1hkf.fsf@ou.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.42.51.28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1054042061 8770 127.0.0.1 (27 May 2003 13:27:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 2003 13:27:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117914 Jon Cast wrote in message news:<87he7i1hkf.fsf@ou.edu>... > conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) writes: > I don't know. Did you think I meant Lorien-in-Aman? I didn't---I > meant Lorien-where-Galadriel-is-singing (i.e., the vantage point for > her song). I wasn't sure which you meant. If you were saying that Lothlorien was not beyond the Sun and Moon then I don't think anyone disagrees or claimed otherwise. Lorien, the gardens of Irmo, is a different matter. >> Irmo's dwelling was in Aman and thus 'beyond the Sun and Moon' during >> the time of the Trees under the later cosmology. > Really? `Beyond' from which vantage point? 'Beyond the reach of'. During the time of the Trees in the conception of the mythology with the dome all of Aman (Lorien included) was 'beyond' the Sun and Moon in the sense that they were not visible and cast no light there. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> <871xylzbzb.fsf@ou.edu> <1178b6d1.0305270450.5975a893@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.133 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1054075121 213.101.77.133 (Wed, 28 May 2003 00:38:41 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 00:38:41 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-77-133.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 00:39:52 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117876 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: [snip] > Your argument that this suggests that Durin woke before language was > invented does not conform with ANY version of the histories. The > Dwarves were given language by Aule before they were ever put into > slumber. The Ainur themselves had the Valarin speech. The Elves woke > and invented their own languages before Durin and his kind arose. > > Clearly then, if this passage WERE to refer to Durin in a time before > language it would be inconsistent with the rest of the history. > > As such, it seems far more likely to me that this text is intended to > mean, 'No NAMES were laid on stream or stone'. That is, none of the > geographic features in the area had been named. Presumably because no > speaking beings lived there yet. That IS consistent with the history > and a perfectly plausible intended meaning for the words above. I agree. It couldn't be put better. Öjevind ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: [Essay] Tolkien's Parish: The Canonical Middle-earth Message-ID: References: <1178b6d1.0305140650.4522f372@posting.google.com> <87he7ry3uo.fsf@ou.edu> <87brxxeykl.fsf@ou.edu> <871xylzbzb.fsf@ou.edu> <87vfvwr3zj.fsf@ou.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1054079278 12.236.164.115 (Tue, 27 May 2003 23:47:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:47:58 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:47:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117960 In article <87vfvwr3zj.fsf@ou.edu>, jcast@ou.edu says... > Tar-Elenion writes: > > > > OTOH I don't recall anyone saying you make the rules ("You're not > > allowed to do that"), and even if someone did, I do not recall > > agreeing to it. > > What I was citing was a common, well understood rule of logic, a > subject you have obviously never studied. . I have, alas, studied philosphy, jurisprudence and medicine too, and, worst of all, theology, with keen endeavor through and through. Yet here I am, for all my lore, the wretched fool I was before. > This conversation is over That is a shame, I was so looking forward to you proving your position. --- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.