From: "Matthew Bladen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:12:47 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 69 Message-ID: References: <3b26e128.0304302033.2e96c59d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305010413.3be89005@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-132-102-76.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: sparta.btinternet.com 1052334767 21568 81.132.102.76 (7 May 2003 19:12:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:12:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!zen.net.uk!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116719 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com... [the nature of Elves to realise their artistic intentions fully] > You can't logically have an immortal race of 'superior artistic faculty' > and a world relatively devoid of art. This connects with something I've had in the back of my mind for a long time now. We have a wide variety of works of literature attributed to Elves -- poetry, cosmological myth, historical records, philological inquiries, and the like. But I can think of no examples of works of the imagination with the possible exception of the 'counting-story' in 'Quendi and Eldar' (HoME 11) -- and even that is based firmly on 'truth' (the relative numbers of the three clans of Elves). This is all fairly close to argument from silence so far, since as you pointed out, Tolkien was a storyteller rather than a world-builder (something that we would all do well to remember when performing exegesis on his writings!). The impression of depth is a masterfully managed illusion, employing intense descriptive writing, a wealth of allusive remarks, an often excellent realisation of character, and names and words in distinct and distinctive languages (which themselves were 'sketches' to an extent). But the story came first, and the history followed it. Much of the 'world-building' found in 'Unfinished Tales' and HoME seems to have been started off by the process of writing the Appendices to LOTR, and many have pointed out that this was not always a process beneficial to Tolkien's cast of mind -- the clearest instance being the crisis of conscience over the 'round world' vs 'flat world' mythologies that did so much to prevent him finishing the Silmarillion. But there are in fact a few totally 'made-up' works (that is to say, having no basis in things that happened) - the Troll Song, Perry-the-Winkle, The Sea-Bell, The Man In The Moon, and so on and on. These all come from Hobbit folk tales, and doubtless were inspired by stories of Elves and legends of the Elder Days. It is nonetheless interesting to note that the Hobbits provide pretty much the only source of works of the imagination. Hobbits are, of course, a sub-group of Men, and shared their Gift. To Elves was given the greater ability to conceive of and bring forth beauty, to be inspired by something and effect their inspiration, drawing out the beauty of the world. But the Gift of Men was to be able to move outside the 'real world', literally so when they died, but also to have a freedom of action beyond the Music - the blueprint for the universe. Tolkien believed that the 'sub-creative' faculty, the ability to tell stories that were founded in imagination rather than fact, was a divine gift (for which see his essay 'On Fairy-Stories' and his poem 'Mythopoeia'). I suggest that *this* is what he meant by the Gift of Men in his legendarium -- the ability to create imaginary worlds in the same fashion, though not with the same capacity to breathe life into them, as Eru brought Ea into being (through the mediation of the Ainur). This would indicate a limitation to the creative faculty of Elves: they could bring about tremendous beauty, but nothing 'inspirational.' Hence poems and histories and scholarly works, but no imaginative literature. I suspect that, although the idea was not explicitly stated, Elves didn't write novels - because they couldn't. This was one artistic endeavour that was beyond them. -- Matthew ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3b26e128.0304302033.2e96c59d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305010413.3be89005@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.241 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1052350895 213.101.77.241 (Thu, 08 May 2003 01:41:35 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 01:41:35 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-77-241.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 01:42:31 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116767 "Matthew Bladen" wrote: [snip] > But there are in fact a few totally 'made-up' works (that is to say, having > no > basis in things that happened) - the Troll Song, Perry-the-Winkle, The > Sea-Bell, The Man In The Moon, and so on and on. These all come from > Hobbit folk tales, and doubtless were inspired by stories of Elves and > legends of the Elder Days. It is nonetheless interesting to note that the > Hobbits provide pretty much the only source of works of the imagination. Yes, that *is* rather remarkable. Not to say that I insist on Faramir spending his free hours reading mystery stories or books of poetry, but where did he get all his knowledge of Gondor's history? From his father and Gandalf, it seems. That is definitely the impression one gets. Öjevind ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Date: 8 May 2003 16:43:38 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 63 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> References: <3b26e128.0304302033.2e96c59d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305010413.3be89005@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.242.228.171 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052437419 12487 127.0.0.1 (8 May 2003 23:43:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 May 2003 23:43:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116916 "Matthew Bladen" wrote in message news:... > "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message > news:1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com... > But there are in fact a few totally 'made-up' works (that is to say, having > no > basis in things that happened) - the Troll Song, Perry-the-Winkle, The > Sea-Bell, The Man In The Moon, and so on and on. These all come from > Hobbit folk tales, and doubtless were inspired by stories of Elves and > legends of the Elder Days. It is nonetheless interesting to note that the > Hobbits provide pretty much the only source of works of the imagination. > > Hobbits are, of course, a sub-group of Men, and shared their Gift. To > Elves was given the greater ability to conceive of and bring forth beauty, > to be inspired by something and effect their inspiration, drawing out the > beauty of the world. But the Gift of Men was to be able to move outside > the 'real world', literally so when they died, but also to have a freedom of > action beyond the Music - the blueprint for the universe. Tolkien > believed that the 'sub-creative' faculty, the ability to tell stories that > were > founded in imagination rather than fact, was a divine gift (for which see > his essay 'On Fairy-Stories' and his poem 'Mythopoeia'). I suggest that > *this* is what he meant by the Gift of Men in his legendarium -- the > ability to create imaginary worlds in the same fashion, though not > with the same capacity to breathe life into them, as Eru brought Ea into > being (through the mediation of the Ainur). This would indicate a > limitation to the creative faculty of Elves: they could bring about > tremendous beauty, but nothing 'inspirational.' Hence poems and > histories and scholarly works, but no imaginative literature. I suspect > that, > although the idea was not explicitly stated, Elves didn't write novels - > because they couldn't. This was one artistic endeavour that was beyond > them. Interesting interpretation ... This text from Ainulindale may be relevant (V.178-9): "Therefore he [Ilúvatar] willed that the *hearts* of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein [...]" (Emphasis added.) Tis suggests to me that Men are characterized by the *desire* to move outside of the world as it really exists. Isn't this desire the primary motive behind fantasy? A little further on in the same passage, Tolkien writes, "yet it it said that they [Men] will join in the Second Music of the Ainur." Since the First Music was involved in the act of creation, it follows that the Second Music is creative as well, which probably reflects Tolkien's longing to take part in the "enrichment of Creation" ("On Fairy Stories"). Tolkiens' reference to "Faërian Drama" in OFS may be relevant here. In this passage -- which always puzzled me a bit -- Tolkien says that Faërian Drama creates a "Tertiary World" and concludes "It is a world too much." So perhaps for Tolkien having a made-up world *within* his imaginary world would have been overkill. Also, Tolkien's pleasure in subcreation was better met by inventing things that purported to be real than it would have been by inventing things that were fictional on the "story-internal" level. The fact that we only have hobbit fiction is probably consonant with the fact that thye are the most deeply realized culture in Middle-earth. (The Elves always seem to be viewed from a distance.) As for the *novel*, it's a relatively recent development (though with a longish prehistory), especially compared to epic. I doubt that anyone in Middle-earth even possessed the "romance." (Although Sauron had a thing for French absurdism ...) ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:33:52 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3b26e128.0304302033.2e96c59d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305010413.3be89005@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116918 On 8 May 2003 16:43:38 -0700, Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) wrote: >Since the First Music was >involved in the act of creation, it follows that the Second Music is >creative as well, ... Naaah! Obviously the Second Music is concerned with Demolition (to preserve the Cosmic Balance). the softrat ==> Careful! I have a hug and I know how to use it! mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Keep this up and we'll have a vicious triangle. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3b26e128.0304302033.2e96c59d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305010413.3be89005@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.76.232 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1052490500 213.101.76.232 (Fri, 09 May 2003 16:28:20 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 16:28:20 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-76-232.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:29:16 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116859 "Count Menelvagor" wrote: [snip] > As for the *novel*, it's a relatively recent development (though with > a longish prehistory), especially compared to epic. I doubt that > anyone in Middle-earth even possessed the "romance." (Although Sauron > had a thing for French absurdism ...) It is true that the novrel only really started to thrve in 17th century Europe; but some novels were written in Roman times, and the ancient Chinese and Japanese also practised the art. Öjevind ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 08:30:21 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <32inbvopgoeflhgk6i1d03ronskma2istb@4ax.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305010413.3be89005@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> <8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116927 On Fri, 9 May 2003 16:29:16 +0200, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > >It is true that the novrel only really started to thrve in 17th century >Europe; but some novels were written in Roman times, and the ancient Chinese >and Japanese also practised the art. > We could get into a real nit-picky semantic argument over whether the Roman, Chinese, and Japanese literature were 'novels' or 'romances'. As I remember from eleventh-grade high school English, 'novels' have non-trivial plots and 'character development'. The mere passage of time in a story does not automatically mean that there is character development. Of course, what did Mrs. Fieldmouse, aka Fieldhouse, know? She called me a 'fool' for my choice of questions to answer on the New York State Regents exam in English. I got 96% correct overall. the softrat ==> Careful! I have a hug and I know how to use it! mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- I believe no problem is so large or so difficult that it can't be blamed on somebody else. ###### From: "Matthew Bladen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 20:47:23 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3b26e128.0304302033.2e96c59d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305010413.3be89005@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305080425.77e97931@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-132-136-218.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1052513243 328 81.132.136.218 (9 May 2003 20:47:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 20:47:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116858 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:1178b6d1.0305080425.77e97931@posting.google.com... [the theory that Elves lacked the ability to 'sub-create' works of imaginative literature] > It is an interesting theory and seems generally in keeping with the > framework, but... Elves were capable of lying. Maeglin certainly did > so. He made up a story to explain where he'd been when captured by > Melkor. Doesn't that imply a 'creative' ability in addition to their > 'sub-creative' talents? Possibly - but arguably not to Tolkien. His poem 'Mythopoeia' was written as a rebuttal of CS Lewis's view that myths were 'lies breathed through silver.' Another take on the issue is that, since Elves were so deeply in love with the real world, they had no interest in 'fantasy' or 'other-reality' literature, because their desires were satisfied by what they found around them. The Gift of Men is described as an innate dissatisfaction with 'reality', an inability to be at peace with the world. Taking this view, Elves would not so much lack the capacity to 'sub-create', as the interest in doing so. In any case, it's nice to be able to contribute to a wider-ranging discussion. :) -- Matthew ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Date: 9 May 2003 17:54:35 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0305091654.3ea97102@posting.google.com> References: <3b26e128.0304302033.2e96c59d@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> <8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.242.228.130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052528075 18277 127.0.0.1 (10 May 2003 00:54:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 May 2003 00:54:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116913 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message news:<8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net>... > "Count Menelvagor" wrote: > > [snip] > > > As for the *novel*, it's a relatively recent development (though with > > a longish prehistory), especially compared to epic. I doubt that > > anyone in Middle-earth even possessed the "romance." (Although Sauron > > had a thing for French absurdism ...) > > It is true that the novrel only really started to thrve in 17th century > Europe; but some novels were written in Roman times, and the ancient Chinese > and Japanese also practised the art. Were they really *novels*, though? I've read some of the Greek romances, but in any case even they seem a bit "modern" for Middle-earth. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1178b6d1.0305010413.3be89005@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> <8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net> <32inbvopgoeflhgk6i1d03ronskma2istb@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.75.122 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1052578318 213.101.75.122 (Sat, 10 May 2003 16:51:58 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:51:58 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-75-122.swipnet.se Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:52:56 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116964 "the softrat" wrote: > We could get into a real nit-picky semantic argument over whether the > Roman, Chinese, and Japanese literature were 'novels' or 'romances'. > As I remember from eleventh-grade high school English, 'novels' have > non-trivial plots and 'character development'. The mere passage of > time in a story does not automatically mean that there is character > development. I agree that there are varying definitions of what constitutes a novel. Still, woula you really say that Robinson Crusoe, for excample, or Ivanhoe, experience som kind of character development? Öjevind ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:17:26 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <4ijrbvsc9m8knd0pno216ke1nlatd5364h@4ax.com> References: <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> <8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net> <32inbvopgoeflhgk6i1d03ronskma2istb@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!teaser.fr!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116996 On Sat, 10 May 2003 16:52:56 +0200, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: >Still, woula you really say that Robinson Crusoe, for excample, or Ivanhoe, >experience som kind of character development? > Me? No, of course not! They haven't got the character to develop like I have. :-) They are *really* romances, although RC slips into satire occasionally. Satire can be *anything*. the softrat ==> Careful! I have a hug and I know how to use it! mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Hex dump: Where witches put used curses... ###### From: T. T. Arvind Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:55:37 +0100 Organization: Ents for the Great Teuncitarian Revolution Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3b26e128.0304302033.2e96c59d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305010413.3be89005@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0305022226.ba52a61@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> <8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d49.dialup.uea.ac.uk (139.222.250.249) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1052643392 21486865 139.222.250.249 (16 [167593]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!d49.dialup.uea.ac.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116963 þus cwæð Count Menelvagor: > > As for the *novel*, it's a relatively recent development (though with > a longish prehistory), especially compared to epic. I doubt that > anyone in Middle-earth even possessed the "romance." (Although Sauron > had a thing for French absurdism ...) What is the accepted distinction between novel, romance, and epic? I've heard the terms often enough, but I'm not clear on what exactly they represent. -- Meneldil Synonym: a word you use when you can't spell the other one. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> <8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net> <32inbvopgoeflhgk6i1d03ronskma2istb@4ax.com> <4ijrbvsc9m8knd0pno216ke1nlatd5364h@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.210 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1052663625 213.101.77.210 (Sun, 11 May 2003 16:33:45 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 16:33:45 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-77-210.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 16:34:44 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:116969 "the softrat" wrote: > On Sat, 10 May 2003 16:52:56 +0200, "Öjevind Lång" > wrote: > > >Still, woula you really say that Robinson Crusoe, for excample, or Ivanhoe, > >experience som kind of character development? > > > Me? No, of course not! They haven't got the character to develop like > I have. :-) > > They are *really* romances, although RC slips into satire > occasionally. Satire can be *anything*. If certain novels are declared not to be novels at all, but romances, then I really can't find anything to add to the discussion, my dear Umbopa. Öjevind ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) Date: 12 May 2003 15:56:06 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0305121456.16abd38@posting.google.com> References: <3b26e128.0304302033.2e96c59d@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> <8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.242.228.182 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052780167 6348 127.0.0.1 (12 May 2003 22:56:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 May 2003 22:56:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117100 T. T. Arvind wrote in message news:... > þus cwæð Count Menelvagor: > > > > As for the *novel*, it's a relatively recent development (though with > > a longish prehistory), especially compared to epic. I doubt that > > anyone in Middle-earth even possessed the "romance." (Although Sauron > > had a thing for French absurdism ...) > > What is the accepted distinction between novel, romance, and epic? I've > heard the terms often enough, but I'm not clear on what exactly they > represent. Let's see: epic vs. romance/novel is easiest to explain, treating the romance and novel, for the moment, as different branches of the same genre. Moreover, this distinction is the primary one. According to Bakhtin in "Epic and Novel" (in The Dialogic Imagination), the epic maintains an "absolute epic distance" between the world it describes and contemporary reality; both the narrator and the reader view the events described from the outside as *complete*. The romance or epic hero, on the other hand, is incomplete; the auhtor uses waht he knows and the hero does not to manipulate the narrative. The typical epic theme is war, while romance generally cocnentrates on the quest. This quest is bound up with the hero's search for *identity*. Romance vs. novel is a bit harder (since I haven't much studied the novel sensu stricto). But in general I wd say that the novel is more realistic and more concerned with using physical details to create a context or environment for the action. The romance retains soem epic characteristics, as the exemplary nature of the hero, whose nature fits a marvellous world. The hero of the novel is less a *hero*. I'm a little less certain than I was that no novels or romances existed in Middle-earth, though. After all, LOTR, which *is* a novel, claims to translate "The Red Book of Westmarch." But it's unclear how much the literary form of LOTR is supposed to reflect the "original" (which in any case wd belong to history and not fiction). Which brings us back to the original question: is there any evidence for either rimances or novels in Middle-earth. The examples that come to mind (Túrin, Aldarion and Erendis, etc.) are all presented as *history*. ###### Message-ID: <3ECD0D3F.FBF00CC1@indigo.ie> From: Michael 0'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Did Elves write novels? (was Re: Theatre and the Arts in Middle-earth) References: <1178b6d1.0305050240.650a1e03@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0305070254.7fde4126@posting.google.com> <6u8ua.15$nk5.45@nntpserver.swip.net> <1178b6d1.0305071017.41b9725c@posting.google.com> <6bfb27a8.0305081543.64a3cb58@posting.google.com> <8WOua.103$nk5.142@nntpserver.swip.net> <32inbvopgoeflhgk6i1d03ronskma2istb@4ax.com> <4ijrbvsc9m8knd0pno216ke1nlatd5364h@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 16 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:47:43 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.173.127 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1053596879 194.125.173.127 (Thu, 22 May 2003 10:47:59 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:47:59 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:117512 the softrat wrote: > > On Sat, 10 May 2003 16:52:56 +0200, "Öjevind Lång" > wrote: > > >Still, woula you really say that Robinson Crusoe, for excample, or Ivanhoe, > >experience som kind of character development? > > > Me? No, of course not! They haven't got the character to develop like > I have. :-) > > They are *really* romances, although RC slips into satire > occasionally. Satire can be *anything*. Part of you seems to have "developed" if your photograph [cringe] is anything to go by.