From: Joe K Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Noldor Avari? Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:34:35 -0800 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sfr-tgn-sfk-vty8.as.wcom.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1048221048 15755 216.192.12.8 (21 Mar 2003 04:30:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:30:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114112 I have come across a statement to the effect that the Vanyar were the only clan of elves that were 100% Eldar. (That is, they all left on the journey to Valinor). I thought that all the Noldor were also Eldar. Is this correct? Or are there Noldor who refused the summons to Valinor? Regards, Joe ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:19:03 -0500 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3E7AA0C7.ECEE3B83@solinas.org> References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> Reply-To: FotW@solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYah25FPqfrzB0utZzP1/XSi6xchiVBrlX1oQWTGdtbujBpVgvTBxk5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2003 05:19:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114099 Joe K wrote: > I have come across a statement to the effect that the Vanyar were the > only clan of elves that were 100% Eldar. (That is, they all left on the > journey to Valinor). I thought that all the Noldor were also Eldar. Is > this correct? Or are there Noldor who refused the summons to Valinor? That statement is incorrect. Rather, the Vanyar were the only kindred that all went to Valinor and stayed there. Some of the Teleri stayed in Middle-earth, and though all the Noldor went to Valinor, most of them returned. But all three kindreds are Eldar because they all left on the first stages of the journey. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1048224389 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:26:29 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:26:29 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 9oxea-15750-W4-12495@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 0fc75438 b98206c6 ef91cc9d c85408fc d589108a Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 05:26:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114131 Quoth Joe K in article <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com>: > I have come across a statement to the effect that the Vanyar were > the only clan of elves that were 100% Eldar. That's right. > I thought that all the Noldor were also Eldar. Is this correct? Or > are there Noldor who refused the summons to Valinor? The terminology can be a little tricky. As I understand it, there were originally three kindreds of Quendi (Elves). When the summons to Valinor came, all of the first kindred obeyed, and they became known as the Vanyar. Most of the second and third kindreds also obeyed (I don't recall whether exact fractions are ever given), and those that did became known as the Noldor and Teleri, respectively. All the Elves who stayed were called the Avari, regardless of which kindred they came from. However, it's probably worth noting that the Silmarillion is almost exclusively told from the perspective of the Eldar. It seems quite likely that the Avari did not call _themselves_ "The Unwilling" but some other name ("The Content"? "The Steadfast"? "The Non-Naive"?), and that they still recognized the two kindreds with their own names. It's a shame that we don't learn more about the culture of the Avari, really... though that could be said of a lot of peoples in Middle-earth. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Tord Kallqvist Romstad Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: 21 Mar 2003 09:00:46 +0100 Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 23 Sender: romstad@europa.uio.no Message-ID: References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <3E7AA0C7.ECEE3B83@solinas.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: europa.uio.no X-Trace: readme.uio.no 1048233646 1981 129.240.223.234 (21 Mar 2003 08:00:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 08:00:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Capitol Reef" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114129 Flame of the West writes: > Joe K wrote: > > > I have come across a statement to the effect that the Vanyar were the > > only clan of elves that were 100% Eldar. (That is, they all left on the > > journey to Valinor). I thought that all the Noldor were also Eldar. Is > > this correct? Or are there Noldor who refused the summons to Valinor? > > That statement is incorrect. Rather, the Vanyar were the only > kindred that all went to Valinor and stayed there. Some of the > Teleri stayed in Middle-earth, and though all the Noldor went to > Valinor, most of them returned. But all three kindreds are Eldar > because they all left on the first stages of the journey. IDHTBIFOM, but doesn't Tolkien state somewhere in "Morgoth's Ring" that there were at least some Noldor-related elves among the Avari? I vaguely recall that Eöl was said to be one of those. He certainly seems to have resembled the Noldor very much, in his appearance as well as in his skills. -- Tord Romstad ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:08:13 +0100 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline08.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1048235242 20139 131.246.65.8 (21 Mar 2003 08:27:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 08:27:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114107 Hi! Steuard Jensen (sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu) schrubbelte folgendes: [snip] > All the Elves who stayed were called the Avari, regardless of which > kindred they came from. However, it's probably worth noting that the > Silmarillion is almost exclusively told from the perspective of the > Eldar. It seems quite likely that the Avari did not call > _themselves_ "The Unwilling" but some other name ("The Content"? > "The Steadfast"? "The Non-Naive"?) Or perhaps "Those-that-were-asleep-when-the-others-went-away" ;-) -- How can you keep your head And not go insane When the only light at the end Of the tunnel is another train (Dream Theater) ###### From: henrik_gustafsson@hotmail.com (becte) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: 21 Mar 2003 07:36:07 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.67.202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1048260968 21871 127.0.0.1 (21 Mar 2003 15:36:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2003 15:36:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114203 > Most of the second and third kindreds also obeyed (I > don't recall whether exact fractions are ever given), and those that > did became known as the Noldor and Teleri, respectively. > The fractions are given in the "Quendi and Eldar" essay (HoME XI). Clan: Minyar 14: Avari 0, Eldar 14 = Vanyar Tatyar 56: Avari 28, Eldar 28 = Noldor Nelyar 74: Avari 28, Eldar 46 = Teleri = Amanyar Teleri 20 + Sindar/Nandor 26 Thus 50% of the second "Noldorian" clan chose to be Avari. In total 56/144 = 39% of the elves became Avari ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:01:31 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <3E7AA0C7.ECEE3B83@solinas.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p113.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1048266192 25758 212.205.253.113 (21 Mar 2003 17:03:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:03:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114120 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3E7AA0C7.ECEE3B83@solinas.org... > Joe K wrote: > > > I have come across a statement to the effect that the Vanyar were the > > only clan of elves that were 100% Eldar. (That is, they all left on the > > journey to Valinor). I thought that all the Noldor were also Eldar. Is > > this correct? Or are there Noldor who refused the summons to Valinor? > > That statement is incorrect. Rather, the Vanyar were the only > kindred that all went to Valinor and stayed there. Some of the > Teleri stayed in Middle-earth, and though all the Noldor went to > Valinor, most of them returned. But all three kindreds are Eldar > because they all left on the first stages of the journey. Not exactly.... The elves were originally divided in Minyar (Firsts), Tatyar (Seconds) and Nelyar (Thirds) All the Minyar went to Valinor, and were later known as Vanyar. But of the Tatyar and Nelyar, some left (becoming Noldor and Teleri, respectively) and some remained (becoming the various clans of dispersed Avari). Aris Katsaris ###### From: Joe K Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:14:42 -0800 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3E7B5692.7C9C8700@compuserve.com> References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sfr-tgn-sfz-vty57.as.wcom.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1048270254 23153 216.192.43.57 (21 Mar 2003 18:10:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 18:10:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114110 Thanks for the reply. Your table make the distinctions extremely clear. Now, are your numbers the actual number of individual elves in each category?! I had assumed that there were hundreds or thousands of elves involved in the initial migrations. Joe ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <3E7AA0C7.ECEE3B83@solinas.org> Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:11:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1048281098 65.26.218.54 (Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:11:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:11:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news-west.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114195 "Tord Kallqvist Romstad" wrote in message news:gqkadfpw3m9.fsf@europa.uio.no... > IDHTBIFOM, but doesn't Tolkien state somewhere in "Morgoth's Ring" > that there were at least some Noldor-related elves among the Avari? I > vaguely recall that Eöl was said to be one of those. He certainly > seems to have resembled the Noldor very much, in his appearance as > well as in his skills. Eol despised the Noldor. He was Sindarin originally, at least according to Silm. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS ###### From: henrik_gustafsson@hotmail.com (becte) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: 22 Mar 2003 04:07:09 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> <3E7B5692.7C9C8700@compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.64.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1048334829 17776 127.0.0.1 (22 Mar 2003 12:07:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Mar 2003 12:07:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114172 Joe K wrote in message news:<3E7B5692.7C9C8700@compuserve.com>... > Thanks for the reply. Your table make the distinctions extremely > clear. Now, are your numbers the actual number of individual elves in > each category?! I had assumed that there were hundreds or thousands of > elves involved in the initial migrations. > > Joe According to the essay (dated to 1959-60) there were originally 144 elves and that the proportions 14:56:74 were approximately maintained until the Great Journey. It is quite possible that the total number had increased from 144 to several thousands. ###### From: Joe K Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:31:57 -0800 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 3 Message-ID: <3E7CBA2D.CF95F028@compuserve.com> References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> <3E7B5692.7C9C8700@compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sfr-tgn-sfi-vty18.as.wcom.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1048361284 21886 216.192.11.18 (22 Mar 2003 19:28:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 19:28:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.telebyte.nl!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114114 Thanks again, Joe ###### From: Matthew Billmers Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> <3E7B5692.7C9C8700@compuserve.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.60.185.71 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1048692680 24.60.185.71 (Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:31:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:31:20 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:31:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114383 In article , henrik_gustafsson@hotmail.com (becte) wrote: > Joe K wrote in message > news:<3E7B5692.7C9C8700@compuserve.com>... > > Thanks for the reply. Your table make the distinctions extremely > > clear. Now, are your numbers the actual number of individual elves in > > each category?! I had assumed that there were hundreds or thousands of > > elves involved in the initial migrations. > > > > Joe > > According to the essay (dated to 1959-60) there were originally 144 > elves and that the proportions 14:56:74 were approximately maintained > until the Great Journey. It is quite possible that the total number > had increased from 144 to several thousands. "One Gross, indeed! Vulgar expression!" An interesting choice of numbers by the professor. I wonder whether whether there's a causal relationship between number of Quendi and the attendance at Bilbo's table. Perhaps Bilbo knew so much lore? -- I will take the ring, though I do not know the way. -Frodo, son of Drogo ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:25:47 -0800 Organization: tos mariposa Message-ID: References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> <3E7B5692.7C9C8700@compuserve.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c56.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114370 > > According to the essay (dated to 1959-60) there were originally 144 > > elves and that the proportions 14:56:74 were approximately maintained > > until the Great Journey. It is quite possible that the total number > > had increased from 144 to several thousands. > > "One Gross, indeed! Vulgar expression!" multiples of twelve seemed to have a special resonance with elves see also appendix d ###### From: Matthew Billmers Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> <3E7B5692.7C9C8700@compuserve.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) Message-ID: Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.60.185.71 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1048696631 24.60.185.71 (Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:37:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:37:11 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:37:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn12feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114385 In article , mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) wrote: > > > According to the essay (dated to 1959-60) there were originally 144 > > > elves and that the proportions 14:56:74 were approximately maintained > > > until the Great Journey. It is quite possible that the total number > > > had increased from 144 to several thousands. > > > > "One Gross, indeed! Vulgar expression!" > > multiples of twelve seemed to have a special resonance with elves > see also appendix d Neat. Now that makes me wonder if the significance of six and twelve to the elves had anything to do with JMS choosing three as the special number for the Minbari in "Babylon 5." Certainly, JMS admitted to having been inspired by LotR in various places, and I've often seen the Minbari as similar to the Elves. -- I will take the ring, though I do not know the way. -Frodo, son of Drogo ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: 26 Mar 2003 17:21:56 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> <9oxea.96$W4.12459@news.uchicago.edu> <3E7B5692.7C9C8700@compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 117-moo-7.acn.waw.pl (62.121.94.117) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1048699316 79229233 62.121.94.117 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!117-moo-7.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:114378 On 26 mar 2003, Matthew Billmers scribbled loosely: >> According to the essay (dated to 1959-60) there were originally 144 >> elves and that the proportions 14:56:74 were approximately maintained >> until the Great Journey. It is quite possible that the total number >> had increased from 144 to several thousands. > > "One Gross, indeed! Vulgar expression!" > > An interesting choice of numbers by the professor. I wonder whether > whether there's a causal relationship between number of Quendi and the > attendance at Bilbo's table. Perhaps Bilbo knew so much lore? It was 144 because it was Frodo's 33th and Bilbo's 111th birthday, both very significant numbers in hobbit society, and gross is almost always and almost everywhere seen as a specific number, since it's a dozen of dozens. -- Pradera --- -ignorance is no excuse for stupidity- RANT - Regulars Against Non-Topicness (on RABT) http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/ ###### From: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 05:42:08 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA Lines: 20 Sender: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Message-ID: References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com X-Trace: pcls4.std.com 1049953328 7087 199.172.62.241 (10 Apr 2003 05:42:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@TheWorld.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 05:42:08 +0000 (UTC) X-no-archive: no X-no-markup: yes Originator: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!uunet!sac.uu.net!nntp.TheWorld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:115322 In article , coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote: >> > According to the essay (dated to 1959-60) there were originally 144 >> > elves and that the proportions 14:56:74 were approximately maintained >> > until the Great Journey. It is quite possible that the total number >> > had increased from 144 to several thousands. >> >> "One Gross, indeed! Vulgar expression!" > >multiples of twelve seemed to have a special resonance with elves >see also appendix d Perhaps they had six fingers on each hand? -- pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "If more of us valued food and cheer and | song above hoarded gold, it would be a | merrier world." --Thorin Oakenshield ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Noldor Avari? Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:44:12 -0700 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: <3E7A965B.91C505AE@compuserve.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c7.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:115394 In article , pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote: > In article , > coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote: > >> > According to the essay (dated to 1959-60) there were originally 144 > >> > elves and that the proportions 14:56:74 were approximately maintained > >> > until the Great Journey. It is quite possible that the total number > >> > had increased from 144 to several thousands. > >> > >> "One Gross, indeed! Vulgar expression!" > > > >multiples of twelve seemed to have a special resonance with elves > >see also appendix d > > Perhaps they had six fingers on each hand? six is a perfect number so twelve is twice as perfect