Message-ID: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:49:26 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.141 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1046394215 2266 207.199.164.141 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112877 A parallel in LOTR recently bubbled up from my subconscious. In "The Scouring of the Shire" Frodo says "No hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to begin now." When _The Silmarillion_ was published, some part of my mind made a link between the hobbit experience and the Elvish experience of kinslaying. I expect Tolkien drew that parallel intentionally, and now I'm thinking about what he intended to point out. Here's my first cut: The Sons of Feanor made their oath and killed their kin because they were caught up in their strength. They assumed they, as Elven nobility, were able to contest Melkor, and therefore they did so. The first Kinslaying (and I suppose the later ones as well) happened because the Feanorans decided their importance overwhelmed the concerns of anybody else. This followed partly from the grandness of the Firstborn, the enhancing of their native qualities that came from dwelling in Valinor, and was then inflated by self-importance and anger at the Valar. The hobbits, on the other hand, were built of pretty much the inverse or complementary qualities. Their culture encouraged them to stay at home, and they had no thought of influence beyond their own borders. The kind of self-importance that might lead to a murder of passion in the Shire was tempered by the smallness of scale of everything in that place. We have examples throughout Tolkien's writings of why it is usually good to be great and powerful. We don't have examples, but I think most of us would agree that it is often bad to be small and limited (there was a recent thread about whether the Rangers patronized the Shire by keeping them a simple people). But I think here we have a comment by Tolkien on why it is sometimes dangerous to be great, and a virtue to be simple. As a result, hobbits can boast they have never had a Kinslaying, and elves can only admit silently that they can't make that boast. Of course, part of the hobbit character is they are unlikely to think of making that boast. Especially to an elf. (Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the boast.) -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:14:13 -0600 Message-ID: <3E5EC64B.4040202@mfx.net> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:15:39 -0500 From: PeterH User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 (NSCD7.01) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.5.183.69 X-Trace: sv3-XHj269JKRi+phpKMBkbin7xQ0+gCqIOenBqreF8asne1XtlAwC1atd892nXh1K0IkoRuyMuis4T9x0I!ALkDyGEub0CXZyWUid1cu4xwJ2MhTJfZLyE1tDwK8eUiezBb/XSto2I= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gwi.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@gwi.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.gwi.net!news.gwi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112874 Glenn Holliday wrote: > But I think here we have a comment >by Tolkien....it is sometimes dangerous to be great, >and a virtue to be simple. > > > A pleasingly stated thesis which is pleasant to behold. Thank you. Yours in the north Maien woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent -- There's such a thing as too much point on a pencil. H. Allen Smith ###### Message-ID: <3E5F119C.81FDE78A@mail.ptd.net> From: "T.M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:48:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.186.33.9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net X-Trace: nnrp1.ptd.net 1046418506 204.186.33.9 (Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:48:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:48:26 EST Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!ptdnetT!newsgateT.ptd.net!ptdnetS!newsgate.ptd.net!nnrp1.ptd.net.POSTED!7bdc509e!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112763 Glenn Holliday wrote: > > (Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify > his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as > part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the > boast.) And perhaps there were plenty of other hobbitcides in pre-Shire days that simply aren't recorded in Tolkien's sources. ###### From: rudy2@rednecks.com (Rudy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: 28 Feb 2003 05:39:15 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 5 Message-ID: <35ab3c7c.0302280539.6fc578ab@posting.google.com> References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.55.10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1046439555 3693 127.0.0.1 (28 Feb 2003 13:39:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2003 13:39:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112884 When you think about it, the elves were one of the worst things to ever happen to Middle Earth. It's funny how TH and LOTR kind of suggest they are noble, but the SILM really opens your eyes to their evils. Illuvatar should have recorgnized the superiority of Aule's work and aborted his so-called "first-born." ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: 28 Feb 2003 13:56:46 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> <3E5F119C.81FDE78A@mail.ptd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 117-moo-7.acn.waw.pl (62.121.94.117) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1046440606 58890715 62.121.94.117 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!117-moo-7.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112866 On 28 lut 2003, "T.M. Sommers" scribbled loosely: >> (Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify >> his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as >> part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the >> boast.) > > And perhaps there were plenty of other hobbitcides in pre-Shire days > that simply aren't recorded in Tolkien's sources. Or that hobbits used to settle their matters in Buckland, or other areas outside Shire. 'Let's go outside, you and me' - said Pansy to his arch-rival Posco, as they reached the Brandywine Bridge. He meant, of course, outside Shire. -- Pradera --- -ignorance is no excuse for stupidity- http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/ ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:00:18 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> <35ab3c7c.0302280539.6fc578ab@posting.google.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112794 "Rudy" wrote in message news:35ab3c7c.0302280539.6fc578ab@posting.google.com... > When you think about it, the elves were one of the worst things to > ever happen to Middle Earth. It's funny how TH and LOTR kind of > suggest they are noble, but the SILM really opens your eyes to their > evils. Illuvatar should have recorgnized the superiority of Aule's > work and aborted his so-called "first-born." did you *really* read the Silmarilion? it sounds like you missed a lot. remember that the Silmarilion spanned a very long length of time. a Hobbit's pride in the history of the Shire is a blink of the eye to an elf. and except for Feanor and his sons the Elves were as noble as you can get. Dwarves fought amongst themselves and even on the side of Morgoth(?) and Sauron. T.A. ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: 28 Feb 2003 08:09:20 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 55 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0302280809.4fcdf2a2@posting.google.com> References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.50.252.117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1046448560 16686 127.0.0.1 (28 Feb 2003 16:09:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2003 16:09:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112899 Glenn Holliday wrote in message news:<3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org>... > A parallel in LOTR recently bubbled up from my subconscious. > In "The Scouring of the Shire" Frodo says "No hobbit has ever > killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to > begin now." When _The Silmarillion_ was published, some part > of my mind made a link between the hobbit experience and > the Elvish experience of kinslaying. > > I expect Tolkien drew that parallel intentionally, and > now I'm thinking about what he intended to point out. > Here's my first cut: > > The Sons of Feanor made their oath and killed their kin because > they were caught up in their strength. They assumed they, > as Elven nobility, were able to contest Melkor, and therefore > they did so. The first Kinslaying (and I suppose the later ones > as well) happened because the Feanorans decided their importance > overwhelmed the concerns of anybody else. This followed partly > from the grandness of the Firstborn, the enhancing of their > native qualities that came from dwelling in Valinor, and > was then inflated by self-importance and anger at the Valar. > > The hobbits, on the other hand, were built of pretty much > the inverse or complementary qualities. Their culture > encouraged them to stay at home, and they had no thought of > influence beyond their own borders. The kind of self-importance > that might lead to a murder of passion in the Shire was > tempered by the smallness of scale of everything in that > place. > > We have examples throughout Tolkien's writings of why > it is usually good to be great and powerful. We don't have > examples, but I think most of us would agree that it is > often bad to be small and limited (there was a recent thread > about whether the Rangers patronized the Shire by keeping > them a simple people). But I think here we have a comment > by Tolkien on why it is sometimes dangerous to be great, > and a virtue to be simple. > > As a result, hobbits can boast they have never had a > Kinslaying, and elves can only admit silently that > they can't make that boast. Of course, part of the > hobbit character is they are unlikely to think of > making that boast. Especially to an elf. > > (Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify > his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as > part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the > boast.) This sort of comment is what makes a Tolkien board worthwhile. Excellent. Gary ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: 28 Feb 2003 11:45:43 -0500 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1046450743 18873 166.84.1.1 (28 Feb 2003 16:45:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:45:43 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112771 In article <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday wrote: >A parallel in LOTR recently bubbled up from my subconscious. >In "The Scouring of the Shire" Frodo says "No hobbit has ever >killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to >begin now." When _The Silmarillion_ was published, some part >of my mind made a link between the hobbit experience and >the Elvish experience of kinslaying. [...] Having just reread the Silmarillion after about 25 years I have to say that for most of its history Middle Earth seems to have been a rather rough place, and it is hard to believe that Hobbits could have survived in it without ever having known or resorted to violence. The Hobbits in the Shire may have been protected and peaceable, but somewhere, sometime, there must have been Hobbits who knew how to fight. Otherwise they wouldn't have survived long enough to found the Shire. I'm trying to visualize an army of grim, battle-scarred Hobbit warriors, in their cute little Hobbit armor, charging into battle on their adorable little Hobbit ponies.... OK, it's not really working for me, but I think my logic still holds. :-) -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:08:17 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 42 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112787 "John Brock" wrote in message news:b3o3nn$psk$1@panix1.panix.com... > In article <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org>, > Glenn Holliday wrote: > >A parallel in LOTR recently bubbled up from my subconscious. > >In "The Scouring of the Shire" Frodo says "No hobbit has ever > >killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to > >begin now." When _The Silmarillion_ was published, some part > >of my mind made a link between the hobbit experience and > >the Elvish experience of kinslaying. > [...] > > Having just reread the Silmarillion after about 25 years I have to > say that for most of its history Middle Earth seems to have been > a rather rough place, and it is hard to believe that Hobbits could > have survived in it without ever having known or resorted to > violence. The Hobbits in the Shire may have been protected and > peaceable, but somewhere, sometime, there must have been Hobbits > who knew how to fight. Otherwise they wouldn't have survived long > enough to found the Shire. > > I'm trying to visualize an army of grim, battle-scarred Hobbit > warriors, in their cute little Hobbit armor, charging into battle > on their adorable little Hobbit ponies.... > from The Hobbit: "Old Took's great-granduncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul's head clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and went down a rabbit hole, and in this way the battle was won and the game of Golf invented at the same moment." and Gollum killed his hobbit friend. T.A. . ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:52:17 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u104.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1046454821 20093 62.103.251.104 (28 Feb 2003 17:53:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:53:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112772 "The American" wrote in message news:v5v5h23737cf6d@corp.supernews.com... > > from The Hobbit: > "Old Took's great-granduncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that > he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in > the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul's head > clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and > went down a rabbit hole, and in this way the battle was won and the game of > Golf invented at the same moment." > > and Gollum killed his hobbit friend. I don't have The Letters myself, but it seems there mentioned that Pearl Took, Pippin's sister, may have been responsible for the murder of "Lalia the Fat", a matriarch of the Took clan. A google found me only a partial reading of this letter: **** Letter #214 "A well-known case, also, was that of Lalia the Great (or less courteously the Fat). Fortinbras II, one time head of the Tooks and Thain, married Lalia of the Clayhangers in 1314, when he was 36 and she was 31. He died in 1380 at the age of 102, but she long outlived him, coming to an unfortunate end in 1402 at the age of 119. So she ruled the Tooks and the Great Smials for 22 years, a great and memorable, if not universally beloved, 'matriarch'. She was not at the famous Party (SY 1401), but was prevented from attending rather by her great size and immobility than by her age. Her son, Ferumbras, had no wife, being unable (it was alleged) to find anyone willing to occupy apartments in the Great Smials, under the rule of Lalia. Lalia, in her last and fattest years, had the custom of being wheeled to the great Door, to take the air on a fine morning. In the spring of SY 1402 her clumsy attendant let the heavy chair run over the threshold and tipped Lalia down the flight of steps into the garden. So ended a reign and life that might well have rivalled that of the Great Took." ***** Also here: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/30026 Aris Katsaris ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers, thanks. Organization: Randori News http://www.randori.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:55:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!out.nntp.be!propagator2-SanJose!in.nntp.be!feed.news.sonic.net!157.206.13.15.MISMATCH!newsfeeder2.randori.com!news.randori.com!263039bc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112821 In article , John Brock wrote: > > Having just reread the Silmarillion after about 25 years I have to > say that for most of its history Middle Earth seems to have been > a rather rough place, and it is hard to believe that Hobbits could > have survived in it without ever having known or resorted to > violence. The Hobbits in the Shire may have been protected and > peaceable, but somewhere, sometime, there must have been Hobbits > who knew how to fight. Otherwise they wouldn't have survived long > enough to found the Shire. > > I'm trying to visualize an army of grim, battle-scarred Hobbit > warriors, in their cute little Hobbit armor, charging into battle > on their adorable little Hobbit ponies.... > > OK, it's not really working for me, but I think my logic still > holds. :-) See "Bandobras the Bullroarer" -- A. Clausen ###### From: helmsdip@yahoo.com (Matthew Revington) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: 28 Feb 2003 10:21:35 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> <3E5F119C.81FDE78A@mail.ptd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.211.201.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1046456495 27861 127.0.0.1 (28 Feb 2003 18:21:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2003 18:21:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112869 "T.M. Sommers" wrote in message news:<3E5F119C.81FDE78A@mail.ptd.net>... > Glenn Holliday wrote: > > > > (Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify > > his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as > > part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the > > boast.) > > And perhaps there were plenty of other hobbitcides in pre-Shire days > that simply aren't recorded in Tolkien's sources. We'll see all those hobbitcides soon in the new spinoff CSI:Bree ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: 28 Feb 2003 14:32:27 -0500 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> <3E5F119C.81FDE78A@mail.ptd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1046460747 22678 166.84.1.2 (28 Feb 2003 19:32:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:32:27 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112769 In article , Matthew Revington wrote: >"T.M. Sommers" wrote in message news:<3E5F119C.81FDE78A@mail.ptd.net>... >> Glenn Holliday wrote: >> > (Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify >> > his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as >> > part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the >> > boast.) >> And perhaps there were plenty of other hobbitcides in pre-Shire days >> that simply aren't recorded in Tolkien's sources. >We'll see all those hobbitcides soon in the new spinoff CSI:Bree "This one is a bit unusual guys. The forensic evidence suggests that the victims were sat upon and then eaten..." -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### From: "Matthew Bladen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:29:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-132-132-91.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: sparta.btinternet.com 1046464184 22776 81.132.132.91 (28 Feb 2003 20:29:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:29:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112809 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:b3o7n5$jjt$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > I don't have The Letters myself, but it seems there mentioned that > Pearl Took, Pippin's sister, may have been responsible for the > murder of "Lalia the Fat", a matriarch of the Took clan. > > A google found me only a partial reading of this letter: > > **** > Letter #214 [snip] > "... In the spring of SY 1402 her clumsy > attendant let the heavy chair run over the threshold and tipped > Lalia down the flight of steps into the garden. So ended a reign > and life that might well have rivalled that of the Great Took." > ***** What we are clearly seeing here is a manifestation of the 'Pippin Gene', successfully isolated (after much experimentation) by Dr. Faramir. The Pippin Gene is the recessive form of the Took Gene: that factor in the makeup of Tooks that makes them apt for adventuring. Occasionally a Took may by chance receive a double dose of Tookishness, as seen in the case of the Übertook Bandobras. Pippin's family, however, was sadly cursed with the recessive strain, which made them foolhardy without skill or judgement. The incredible survival of Pippin in the War of the Ring (against which the Pippin Gene itself was fighting on many occasions - making him look into the Palantir, contrive to get squashed by a troll, and so on) was, alas, the cause of the decline of the Tooks in the Fourth Age. No previous sufferer had managed to live long enough to procreate (thanks to a skilful eugenics campaign maintained by Gandalf -- all those hobbits who 'never returned' were Pippins), but Pippin caused the mighty bloodline to waste away into one long stream of stone-throwing, loud-question-asking- in-dangerous-situations useless twits. -- Matthew Hobbit evolution: Survival of the Fattest. ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:39:47 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112799 "Matthew Bladen" wrote in message news:b3ogrn$m7o$1@sparta.btinternet.com... > > very good! T.A. ###### From: "Clotilde" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:57:44 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: "Clotilde" Reply-To: "Clotilde" X-User-Info: 199.253.23.1 199.253.23.1 hnowell References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 42 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112797 AC wrote: >In article , John Brock wrote: >> >> Having just reread the Silmarillion after about 25 years I have to >> say that for most of its history Middle Earth seems to have been >> a rather rough place, and it is hard to believe that Hobbits could >> have survived in it without ever having known or resorted to >> violence. The Hobbits in the Shire may have been protected and >> peaceable, but somewhere, sometime, there must have been Hobbits >> who knew how to fight. Otherwise they wouldn't have survived long >> enough to found the Shire. >> >> I'm trying to visualize an army of grim, battle-scarred Hobbit >> warriors, in their cute little Hobbit armor, charging into battle >> on their adorable little Hobbit ponies.... >> >> OK, it's not really working for me, but I think my logic still >> holds. :-) > >See "Bandobras the Bullroarer" > >-- >A. Clausen In the book, the usual form of fighting done by - geez - Merry or Pippin that was actually on the battlefield, one of you people with perfect memories provide that piece of info will you - was rather reminiscent of a small feisty dog. To do damage to the legs. Then maybe attack the rest of them when they're down? Somewhat like the scene in the movie in Fellowship where Merry & Pippin bring Boramir down in play fighting by stomping his feet and then jumping him once he's on the ground. So my imagination provides for me an army of hobbits swarming like little terriers through a Big battlefield, cutting ankles and swarming over the fallen. - - As Asimov put it many years back, 'Major scientific discoveries don't generally start with "Eureka!", they start with "That's funny ..."'. ###### From: "Clotilde" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:01:29 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: "Clotilde" Reply-To: "Clotilde" X-User-Info: 199.253.23.1 199.253.23.1 hnowell References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> <3E5F119C.81FDE78A@mail.ptd.net> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112823 jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) wrote: >In article , >Matthew Revington wrote: >>"T.M. Sommers" wrote in message news:<3E5F119C.81FDE78A@mail.ptd.net>... >>> Glenn Holliday wrote: > >>> > (Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify >>> > his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as >>> > part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the >>> > boast.) > >>> And perhaps there were plenty of other hobbitcides in pre-Shire days >>> that simply aren't recorded in Tolkien's sources. > >>We'll see all those hobbitcides soon in the new spinoff CSI:Bree > >"This one is a bit unusual guys. The forensic evidence suggests >that the victims were sat upon and then eaten..." > > >-- >John Brock >jbrock@panix.com > This one seems to have been starved to death after his relatives camped out at every available entrance and he ran out of food for not wanting to open the door to them. - - As Asimov put it many years back, 'Major scientific discoveries don't generally start with "Eureka!", they start with "That's funny ..."'. ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:04:13 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3e5fcdee.195242934@news.compuserve.com> References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-ngv-vty5.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1046466433 20556 216.192.88.5 (28 Feb 2003 21:07:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:07:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112815 On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:49:26 -0500, Glenn Holliday wrote: >A parallel in LOTR recently bubbled up from my subconscious. >In "The Scouring of the Shire" Frodo says "No hobbit has ever >killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to >begin now." But was Frodo actually correct when he said this? Speculation in The Green Dragon (IIRC) was that his very own parents might have died through foul play: "...she pushed him in, and he dragged her in after him". This speculation came from Sandyman and was quickly quashed, but that it even came up seems to indicate that such things were at least not unthinkable. And it's not often that people who think of things never do them (if you'll forgive my illogical grammar). On the whole, I think you've characterised the author's main intention very accurately. But Tolkien is never as simple as all that: his world is so real because it contains contradictions and mysteries, with truth, lie, and misconception inextricably mixed. That's why I love it so. Jim Deutch -- "Utilitarianism? Pfagh! A useless concept!" ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:13:38 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!nntp!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112812 "Clotilde" wrote in message news:v5vja8ihl14m1d@corp.supernews.com... > > > In the book, the usual form of fighting done by - geez - Merry or Pippin > that was actually on the battlefield, one of you people with perfect memories > provide that piece of info will you - was rather reminiscent of a small feisty > dog. To do damage to the legs. Then maybe attack the rest of them when they're > down? well, i think in the books most orcs are rather small or dwarf sized. it was rare to find one as big as a Man and when it was it was noted. (i can't remember where right now though) Saruman changed all that with his cross breed. so hobbits and orcs would have been for the most part on even ground as far as one on one fighting goes. T.A. ###### From: Pete Gray Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:15:37 +0000 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6mjv5vonk6rtu61qhujg5tmpaon1rfoedq@4ax.com> References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> Reply-To: peter@redbadge.fsnet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.78.38.15 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 1046466872 2683 81.78.38.15 (28 Feb 2003 21:14:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2003 21:14:32 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112755 On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:49:26 -0500, Glenn Holliday wrote: >(Just to be complete, perhaps Tolkien had Frodo qualify >his comment with "in the Shire" to account Smeagol as >part of hobbit history and exclude his deeds from the >boast.) No, it's just that they always drive their hobbit victims over the border, and do them in there. It was a tradition. Frodo was just afraid it wouldn't be practicable to do that this time, but didn't want to break with tradition. Very British, of course. "No hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the Shire" -- but what about the killing of non-hobbits? Is that OK? Commonplace? Is that why only hobbits live in the Shire -- incomers get whacked? Unlike Bree. Hmmm. -- Pete Gray while ($cat!="home"){$mice=="play";} ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:23:04 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <89ov5vcrseglamnevgs2te856upquf31lb@4ax.com> Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112905 On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:57:44 -0000, "Clotilde" wrote: >Boramir Isn't that supposed to be 'Borimor'? the softrat "Wannabe orcodentist" ==>Jar-jaromir Lives!<== mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Help wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply. ###### From: skadabra65@hotmail.com (K2_Greyhame) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: 28 Feb 2003 20:06:24 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 31 Message-ID: <31ae81e1.0302282006.1338a088@posting.google.com> References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.212.197.44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1046491584 10449 127.0.0.1 (1 Mar 2003 04:06:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Mar 2003 04:06:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112851 "The American" wrote in message news:... > "Clotilde" wrote in message > news:v5vja8ihl14m1d@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > In the book, the usual form of fighting done by - geez - Merry or Pippin > > that was actually on the battlefield, one of you people with perfect > memories > > provide that piece of info will you - was rather reminiscent of a small > feisty > > dog. To do damage to the legs. Then maybe attack the rest of them when > they're > > down? > > well, i think in the books most orcs are rather small or dwarf sized. > it was rare to find one as big as a Man and when it was it was noted. > (i can't remember where right now though) > Saruman changed all that with his cross breed. > so hobbits and orcs would have been for the most part on even ground as far > as one on one fighting goes. > > T.A. Well, I don't own TTT, but I'm pretty sure that after Boromir's death Pippin says that Merry defended himself from the orcs, killing multiples of them by beheading. Pretty impressive feat considering the # of orcs, although the orcs were trying to capture Merry, not kill him, but not everyone can be Hurin. k2 ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 00:49:09 -0800 Organization: tos mariposa Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> <31ae81e1.0302282006.1338a088@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c33.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112849 > Well, I don't own TTT, but I'm pretty sure that after Boromir's death > Pippin says that Merry defended himself from the orcs, killing > multiples of them by beheading. Pretty impressive feat considering by cutting off their hands the orcs were under orders to grab them not kill them ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: 1 Mar 2003 12:55:54 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 117-moo-7.acn.waw.pl (62.121.94.117) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1046523354 59420758 62.121.94.117 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!117-moo-7.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112875 On 28 lut 2003, jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) scribbled loosely: > I'm trying to visualize an army of grim, battle-scarred Hobbit > warriors, in their cute little Hobbit armor, charging into battle > on their adorable little Hobbit ponies.... > > OK, it's not really working for me, but I think my logic still > holds. :-) > -- Obviously you've never seen a mad countryfolk... (english or other - they're all the same when they're pissed off) -- Pradera --- -ignorance is no excuse for stupidity- http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/ ###### From: "johnj" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3E5D5254.5A44DC1@acm.org> <31ae81e1.0302282006.1338a088@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Hobbits nobler than Elves? Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 15:02:10 -0000 Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-39-14-60-62.vip.uk.com Message-ID: <3e61f31f$1_2@news1.vip.uk.com> X-Trace: news1.vip.uk.com 1046606623 modem-39-14-60-62.vip.uk.com (2 Mar 2003 12:03:43 0000) X-Report: Report abuse to nntpabuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112981 K2_Greyhame wrote in message news:31ae81e1.0302282006.1338a088@posting.google.com... > Well, I don't own TTT, but I'm pretty sure that after Boromir's death > Pippin says that Merry defended himself from the orcs, killing > multiples of them by beheading. Pretty impressive feat considering > the # of orcs, although the orcs were trying to capture Merry, not > kill him, but not everyone can be Hurin. > No - Merry just "cut off several of their arms and hands". Of course, the Orcs were not trying to fight back.