Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: The Horn of Helm X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 36 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1045146848 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:34:08 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:34:08 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: A1O2a-16126-K4-23410@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 782c5367 fa7a640d 3512199e 745b8b08 29458b88 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:34:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111604 This is a minor point, and possibly one easily answered, but I'm curious to know what others' impressions are. In "Helm's Deep", we read that after "the great horn of Helm rang out", "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and free. "'Helm! Helm!' the Riders shouted. 'Helm is arisen and comes back to war. Helm for Theoden King!'" Now, I can see three possible explanations for this, but none are particularly satisfying. First, it is possible that Helm's Deep just had a really cool echo effect, and that this behavior was perfectly normal. That may be the most likely explanation, but it's a bit odd: if that were the case, why would the defenders on the walls have been so surprised? Surely the echoes of Helm's horn in Helm's Deep would have been common lore in Rohan? A second explanation, and the one that I actually believed for quite some time, was that the extra horn-blasts were blown by other men of Rohan, quite possibly stationed around the Deep by Gandalf as part of his rescue plan, to create a chilling effect on the invaders below (alternately, Theoden could have sent them up in secret to terrify his enemies and make his final charge more effective). But this seems unnecessarily complicated, and a serious waste of manpower. Finally, it could be that Helm himself _was_ somehow watching over Rohan, and arose to provide the ghostly horncalls to aid his descendant and his people. This seems an unlikely answer, but I figured I'd include it for completeness. So which of these does everone out there believe? Or are there other possibilities that I've overlooked? Steuard Jensen ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:49:20 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp145-78.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1045158482 31524 62.118.145.78 (13 Feb 2003 17:48:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:48:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!newsfeed1.eu.ignite.net!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!any.msu.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111669 Steuard Jensen wrote: > This is a minor point, and possibly one easily answered, but I'm > curious to know what others' impressions are. In "Helm's Deep", we > read that after "the great horn of Helm rang out", > > "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes > did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer > now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and > free. > > "'Helm! Helm!' the Riders shouted. 'Helm is arisen and comes back > to war. Helm for Theoden King!'" [...] > Finally, it could be that Helm himself _was_ somehow watching over > Rohan, and arose to provide the ghostly horncalls to aid his > descendant and his people. This seems an unlikely answer, but I > figured I'd include it for completeness. > > So which of these does everone out there believe? Or are there other > possibilities that I've overlooked? > Steuard Jensen > The last one. Archie ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: 13 Feb 2003 18:46:25 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 117-moo-7.acn.waw.pl (62.121.94.117) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1045161985 47758273 62.121.94.117 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!117-moo-7.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111728 On 13 lut 2003, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) scribbled loosely: > > This is a minor point, and possibly one easily answered, but I'm > curious to know what others' impressions are. In "Helm's Deep", we > read that after "the great horn of Helm rang out", > Yay! A serious tolkien topic, at last! > "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes > did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer > now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and > free. > > "'Helm! Helm!' the Riders shouted. 'Helm is arisen and comes back > to war. Helm for Theoden King!'" > > Now, I can see three possible explanations for this, but none are > particularly satisfying. First, it is possible that Helm's Deep just > had a really cool echo effect, and that this behavior was perfectly > normal. That may be the most likely explanation, but it's a bit odd: > if that were the case, why would the defenders on the walls have been > so surprised? Surely the echoes of Helm's horn in Helm's Deep would > have been common lore in Rohan? > > Would it, I wonder. A quick look on the timeline of Rohan shows that the last time Helm's Deep would be used for battle would be perhaps in times of Brytta Leofa, 2752-2842, a generation after Helm. After that, there were no great wars or battles, only skirmishes with misty mountain orcs, so no need to use Helm's horn. So I suppose that really was the first time people heard Helm's horn after 300 years, and that's quite a long time to forget things for non-dunedainic mortals... the stories from Helm's time would become stuff of fairy-tales or legends, like stories of Helm wandering in the winter, slaying orcs... anyway, that's the explanation I've always believed in personally. -- Pradera --- -ignorance is no excuse for stupidity- http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/ ###### From: "Michael Martin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:17:09 -0500 Organization: the Militant Anti-Intolerance Cadre Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: b3dhcp6231.lexis-nexis.com X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1045167429 1431 138.12.16.231 (13 Feb 2003 20:17:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lexis-nexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2003 20:17:09 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.123!uunet!sac.uu.net!lexis-nexis!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111696 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:A1O2a.53$K4.23366@news.uchicago.edu... > This is a minor point, and possibly one easily answered, but I'm > curious to know what others' impressions are. In "Helm's Deep", we > read that after "the great horn of Helm rang out", > > "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes > did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer > now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and > free. > > "'Helm! Helm!' the Riders shouted. 'Helm is arisen and comes back > to war. Helm for Theoden King!'" > > Now, I can see three possible explanations for this, but none are > particularly satisfying. First, it is possible that Helm's Deep just > had a really cool echo effect, and that this behavior was perfectly > normal. That may be the most likely explanation, but it's a bit odd: > if that were the case, why would the defenders on the walls have been > so surprised? Surely the echoes of Helm's horn in Helm's Deep would > have been common lore in Rohan? See Pradera's post. I don't think the horn _had_ been heard, especially by most of the people there, for quite some time. > A second explanation, and the one that I actually believed for quite > some time, was that the extra horn-blasts were blown by other men of > Rohan, quite possibly stationed around the Deep by Gandalf as part of > his rescue plan, to create a chilling effect on the invaders below > (alternately, Theoden could have sent them up in secret to terrify his > enemies and make his final charge more effective). But this seems > unnecessarily complicated, and a serious waste of manpower. As well as being unsupported by the text. > Finally, it could be that Helm himself _was_ somehow watching over > Rohan, and arose to provide the ghostly horncalls to aid his > descendant and his people. This seems an unlikely answer, but I > figured I'd include it for completeness. I have a hard time with this explanation, though my argument isn't that strong. Whenever we see "spirits," they're not benevolent, they're damned or (as in the case of the marsh) probably illusions. Having the spirit of a departed mortal behaving this way seems out of character for the books and for Tolkien. YMMV, of course. > So which of these does everone out there believe? Or are there other > possibilities that I've overlooked? My assumption, and perhaps I've read too much bad fantasy and fill in too many gaps myself, was that there was some sort of providential "oomph" added to the horn-blowing - whether the Valar, or Eru, but that the Good Powers were doing what they could without becoming _active_ agents in the struggle. Thus the horn blowing becomes something numinous and stirring. -- Michael Martin http://www.stormraven.com "The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return." ###### From: JXStern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Message-ID: <0l1o4vc80en087sfvfu9p9if7d3jk3jkup@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:57:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.158.126 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1045169865 4.62.158.126 (Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:57:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:57:45 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!4fcf30b0!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111727 On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:34:08 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes > did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer > now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and > free. > > "'Helm! Helm!' the Riders shouted. 'Helm is arisen and comes back > to war. Helm for Theoden King!'" > >Now, I can see three possible explanations for this, but none are >particularly satisfying. First, it is possible that Helm's Deep just >had a really cool echo effect, and that this behavior was perfectly >normal. That may be the most likely explanation, but it's a bit odd: >if that were the case, why would the defenders on the walls have been >so surprised? Surely the echoes of Helm's horn in Helm's Deep would >have been common lore in Rohan? So maybe they weren't surprised, just enthusiastic? I'd also give some props to PJ on this, who showed some giant architectural horns built into the walls that could account for it acoustically, if someone with sufficient lung capacity showed up to play them. J. ###### From: 4Fishers@Compuserve.com (Madman2001) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: 13 Feb 2003 13:02:29 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 21 Message-ID: <711a9182.0302131302.1fc614e6@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.97.110.142 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1045170149 5126 127.0.0.1 (13 Feb 2003 21:02:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2003 21:02:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111709 Steuard: I think that simplest explanation is the best: that the Deep and the sheltering mountains and in particular the caves (which Tolkien discusses at some length) had some peculiar or different echo quality about them. In fact, Middle-Earth is replete with natural places that behave or are perceived somewhat differently, e.g. Caradhas, the Old Forest, Amon Llaw, Amon Hen, etc. The only objection you raise concerning this is that everyone was surprised. But why wouldn't they be? How many decades/centuries had it been since the Horn was sounded? I wouldn't expect that the Horn came with a fully-documented user's manual with the warning: "Sounds may appear closer than they are". ;) I see no particular need to come up with convoluted explanations to account for this phenomenon. Madman ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:18:38 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1045174946 195.82.196.155 (Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:22:26 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:22:26 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!uucp.gnuu.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!luth.se!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111606 "Steuard Jensen" skrev i en meddelelse news:A1O2a.53$K4.23366@news.uchicago.edu... > "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes > did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer > now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and > free. > "'Helm! Helm!' the Riders shouted. 'Helm is arisen and comes back > to war. Helm for Theoden King!'" This response ties in with some mythologies found in the real world. In Britain, king Arthur is said to be buried in a mountain in Wales, and will issue forth to war if ever Britain is truly in peril. Something similar is said in Denmark of a possibly historical person, Holger Danske. This person may have lived in the early Viking age, serving the king of France under the name Ogier le Danois. Possibly he died there and never returned; but he is yet said to sit in sleep under the barracks of Kronborg castle. It is no wonder that Tolkien had the Rohirrim think in similar terms about Helm, who was both their greatest hero since Eorl and who fought in Rohan's most desperate peril. > Finally, it could be that Helm himself _was_ somehow watching over > Rohan, and arose to provide the ghostly horncalls to aid his > descendant and his people. This seems an unlikely answer, but I > figured I'd include it for completeness. This is not precisely the explanation that I have generally had in mind when I thought of that part of the book, but it comes closest. In LotR there are several examples of borderline supernatural happenstances, as it were. This includes the land itself either aiding or hindering the protagonists. And even in the absence of an actually sentient soul, things may have wills and purposes. The Ring certainly had purpose, although it is probably still under debate whether it had sentience - I myself consider it not to have had. Quite possibly Helm's Deep was in some sense kindly disposed towards the Rohirrim, or any host defending itself against servants of evil. At a moment of great emotion among the Rohirrim and great importance, Helm's Deep itself may have been able and willing to take an active part in their struggle - by amplifying the horn signals. For that matter an echo of Helm Hammerhand may have existed in the Deep, though the fëa of the old warrior be departed from Arda half-third centuries earlier, and his body be sleeping in the ninth mound to the west of the road leading up to Edoras. You might say that for the mighty deeds and strong spirit of Helm, the Deep may have been in some sort of rapport with him even after his departure. Remember also this passage in Appendix A, where is related the invasion of Rohan and the Long Winter: "Yet men said that the horn was still heard at times in the Deep and the wraith of Helm would walk among the foes of Rohan and kill men with fear". A superstition of the Rohirrim, perhaps, as we say in a rational world. Brân. ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:25:32 +0000 Organization: University of Durham Lines: 51 Message-ID: <3E4C377C.4000206@durham.ac.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: howlan08.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sirius.dur.ac.uk 1045182332 29869 129.234.54.8 (14 Feb 2003 00:25:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@durham.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:25:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!feeder.news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111559 Steuard Jensen wrote: > This is a minor point, and possibly one easily answered, but I'm > curious to know what others' impressions are. In "Helm's Deep", we > read that after "the great horn of Helm rang out", > > "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes > did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer > now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and > free. > > "'Helm! Helm!' the Riders shouted. 'Helm is arisen and comes back > to war. Helm for Theoden King!'" > > Now, I can see three possible explanations for this, but none are > particularly satisfying. First, it is possible that Helm's Deep just > had a really cool echo effect, and that this behavior was perfectly > normal. That may be the most likely explanation, but it's a bit odd: > if that were the case, why would the defenders on the walls have been > so surprised? Surely the echoes of Helm's horn in Helm's Deep would > have been common lore in Rohan? > I think this is the best answer. > A second explanation, and the one that I actually believed for quite > some time, was that the extra horn-blasts were blown by other men of > Rohan, quite possibly stationed around the Deep by Gandalf as part of > his rescue plan, to create a chilling effect on the invaders below > (alternately, Theoden could have sent them up in secret to terrify his > enemies and make his final charge more effective). But this seems > unnecessarily complicated, and a serious waste of manpower. > exactly. And it requires both Gandalf and Theoden to know exactly what the other was planning to do. It doesn't make much sense to me. > Finally, it could be that Helm himself _was_ somehow watching over > Rohan, and arose to provide the ghostly horncalls to aid his > descendant and his people. This seems an unlikely answer, but I > figured I'd include it for completeness. > It's not impossible in legends: there's a legend that if someone beats Francis Drake's drum in a time of crisis, it will bring the old seadog back to lead us to victory (or summat). But I don't like it for Helm's horn. > So which of these does everone out there believe? Or are there other > possibilities that I've overlooked? I suppose it *could* be magick! ;) Jamie ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 26 Message-ID: <4G%2a.80$K4.30980@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1045202688 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:04:48 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:04:48 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 4G%2a-21097-K4-30877@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 307f3d24 61c287d9 bd538aa6 d1f6d825 7b74476d Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:04:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111591 Quoth "Morgil" in article : > > "Steuard Jensen" skrev: > > > "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the > > > echoes did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the > > > hills; nearer now and louder they answered one to another, > > > blowing fierce and free. > People! It was the Ents! Look at the next chapter, > where the Ents appear to Theoden and others. > Their voices are described to sound like horncalls. > Right? I didn't think there was any question about it... I thought you were joking! :) Of course, this raises some questions even beyond exactly how similar the Ents' calls were to a normal horn (or Helm's horn in particular). For example, what were a bunch of Ents doing back in the hills, when all the Huorns were way out at the mouth of the valley? How did they know to coordinate with Theoden in that way? In the end, this feels to me like a slightly more far-fetched version of the "Men of Rohan with horns" explanation (which, mind you, I suspected was true for quite some time). But I've got to admit, it's a possibility I hadn't considered before. :) (And it's not entirely implausible, whatever my tone above.) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1045203105 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:11:45 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:11:45 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: BM%2a-21111-K4-30966@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 9ede3074 ab75d80e 64e1a670 dcc4e084 09d5806c Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:11:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111598 Quoth "Raven" in article : > "Steuard Jensen" skrev: > > "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes > > did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills..." > In LotR there are several examples of borderline supernatural > happenstances, as it were. This includes the land itself either > aiding or hindering the protagonists. ... Quite possibly Helm's > Deep was in some sense kindly disposed towards the Rohirrim... Ooooh! You must have known my fondness for possible "nature spirits" in Middle-earth when you shared this idea. :) I've got to admit that it's lower on my probability list than some of the other answers (excitement over good natural echoes in the Deep is currently my frontrunner), but that doesn't mean I don't like thinking about the possibility. What an intriguing idea... I'll have to think about it further. Thanks! Steuard Jensen ###### Message-ID: <3E4CD6D6.25E5E086@1.au> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:50:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.36.244 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1045223431 172.21.36.244 (Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:50:31 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:50:31 EET Organization: Nokia Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111695 Steuard Jensen wrote: > "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes > did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer > now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and > free. > Now, I can see three possible explanations for this, but none are > particularly satisfying. First, it is possible that Helm's Deep just > had a really cool echo effect, and that this behavior was perfectly > normal. This part reminds me of accounts given of the "Trinity" nuclear test. Observers reported that the sound was so overwhelming, that as it echoed back and forth from the hills they dreaded that it'd never go out. -JJ ###### Message-ID: <3E4CE839.3AE05FBA@mail.dk> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:59:37 +0100 From: Troels Forchhammer Organization: Troels@ThisIsFake.dk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.196.143.130 X-Trace: 1045227547 dtext01.news.tele.dk 154 80.196.143.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@post.tele.dk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111747 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Quoth "Raven" in > article : >> "Steuard Jensen" skrev: >>> "on the walls men looked up, listening with wonder; for the echoes >>> did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills..." >> >> In LotR there are several examples of borderline supernatural >> happenstances, as it were. This includes the land itself either >> aiding or hindering the protagonists. ... Quite possibly Helm's >> Deep was in some sense kindly disposed towards the Rohirrim... > > Ooooh! You must have known my fondness for possible "nature spirits" > in Middle-earth when you shared this idea. :) I've got to admit that > it's lower on my probability list than some of the other answers > (excitement over good natural echoes in the Deep is currently my > frontrunner) I have not really given this much thought previously - having just accepted that the echoes continued ;-) Giving it some thought I think that natural echoes is not quite sufficient - the description to me strongly suggests that something extraordinary is going on. That the repetition should be merely hidden horn blowers is too prosaic an explanation for my tastes - we are told that it is the echoes that does not die - not that it's someone else blowing ... The idea of the land itself somehow enhancing the natural echoes appear to me far more attractive ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk -- "He deserves death." "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -- Tolkien in The Fellowship of the Ring ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Lines: 5 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <2g63a.845$Ni6.849@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.76.49 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1045229694 213.101.76.49 (Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:34:54 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:34:54 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-76-49.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:38:42 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!news0.de.colt.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111645 He was known as Horny Helmut. Öjevind ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:05:22 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <2g63a.845$Ni6.849@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bacchus.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1045231522 14841 129.241.210.178 (14 Feb 2003 14:05:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:05:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111610 In article <2g63a.845$Ni6.849@nntpserver.swip.net>, Öjevind Lång wrote: >He was known as Horny Helmut. That's from his other career in German adult entertainment (cue bad 1970s music...) -- Leif Kjønnøy, Geek of a Few Trades. http://www.pvv.org/~leifmk Disclaimer: Do not try this at home. Void where prohibited by law. Batteries not included. ###### From: wares@fordham.edu (Michael Wares) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: 14 Feb 2003 06:52:17 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: <2b413897.0302140652.54391f70@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.108.154.114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1045234337 26696 127.0.0.1 (14 Feb 2003 14:52:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2003 14:52:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111697 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:... A few paragraphs later, Erkenbrand appears, blowing a horn; I've always assumed that it was Erkenbrand and his men who blew the additional horns. The same sort of coincidence, "as we say in Middle-earth", as the cock crowing just before the horns of the Rohirrim were heard in _RotK_. Michael Wares wares@fordham.edu ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm References: <4G%2a.80$K4.30980@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 42 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1045248807 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:53:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:53:27 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: HWa3a-23190-K4-33594@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: d47f9008 dfab424a 5e10fb62 fd687a8c a56c6786 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:53:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111615 Quoth "Morgil" in article : > "Steuard Jensen" kirjoitti: > > Quoth "Morgil" : > > > > "Steuard Jensen" skrev: > > > > > Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer now > > > > > and louder they answered one to another... > > > People! It was the Ents! > > this raises some questions even beyond exactly how similar the > > Ents' calls were to a normal horn (or Helm's horn in particular). > Chapter 4: Treebeard. He puts his hands on his mouth as a > horn... making a sound /hoom hom/, like a sound of a horn. Right, I know the reference, which is why I said "exactly" above: we know the Ents' calls sounded like horns, but "like" could mean "indistinguishable from" or "different, but closer to horns than to anything else". And if Helm's horn had a particular sound (or was blown in some specific pattern), the Ents' calls would have had to (coincidentally) sound very similar indeed to be mistaken for echoes. > > For example, what were a bunch of Ents doing back in the hills > The way I figured it, the Ents"responded" to the horn of Helm, and > their voices echoed from the hills. But in that case, wouldn't the Riders have heard the "echoes" not just from the hills but also (and loudest!) from the plain beyond Saruman's army? Yes, this _could_ work, but I'm dubious. > Well, it might be just 'occam's razor' or whatever - thinking. The > Ents just came - their voices sounded like horns - there were > unexplainable horn-blasts *answering one to another* - must have > been the Ents chatting. :-) This raises the question of whether the Ents were actually responding to Helm's horn, thinking it was another Ent. Perhaps the blower had inadvertently said, "Your mother had dry rot!" in Entish. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Ricardo Teixeira" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <2b413897.0302140652.54391f70@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:15:50 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3e4d6a8b$0$646$a729d347@news.telepac.pt> Organization: Telepac II - Comunicacoes Interactivas, SA NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.84.50.16 X-Trace: 1045260939 news.telepac.pt 646 81.84.50.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mail.telepac.pt Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!uunet!dca.uu.net!nntp.cprm.net!venus.telepac.pt!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111780 "Michael Wares" wrote in message news:2b413897.0302140652.54391f70@posting.google.com... > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:... > > > A few paragraphs later, Erkenbrand appears, blowing a horn; I've > always assumed that it was Erkenbrand and his men who blew the > additional horns. > > The same sort of coincidence, "as we say in Middle-earth", as the > cock crowing just before the horns of the Rohirrim were heard in > _RotK_. > > Michael Wares > wares@fordham.edu I tend to agree with you. That always seemed the most obvious explanation. I didn't even wonder much about the "supernatural" echos... RT ========================= "A Túrin Turambar turún'ambartanen" ========================= ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm References: <2b413897.0302140652.54391f70@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 39 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1045277643 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:54:03 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:54:03 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: fZh3a-26006-K4-36047@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 597c4572 cfcf06dc 46d2fd03 4b2d0113 c0a05c0f Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:54:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111814 Quoth wares@fordham.edu (Michael Wares) in article <2b413897.0302140652.54391f70@posting.google.com>: > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: [What caused the "echoes" of Helm's horn?] > A few paragraphs later, Erkenbrand appears, blowing a horn; I've > always assumed that it was Erkenbrand and his men who blew the > additional horns. It was on the very next page and I _still_ overlooked it. How embarassing. :) The first quote, just as a reminder, was "the echoes did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills; nearer now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and free." And the Erkenbrand quote is "There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider, clad in white, shining in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot... Amid them strode a man tall and strong. ... As he came to the valley's brink, he set to his lips a great black horn and blew a ringing blast." So what do we have? We have horns sounding "over the low hills" just as before "the horn-blasts wound on among the hills". Moreover, these aren't just any horns, these are "the" horns, as if they have been mentioned before, and the only horns that have been mentioned recently are the horn of Helm and its mysteriously persistent "echoes". And to dispel any remaining doubt about whether the horns sounding over the hills were connected to these men, Erkenbrand blows one himself. So, it was an interesting discussion, and a number of neat ideas were raised... but I've just been 99% convinced that my prior impression was right after all. It's a shame to see a good discussion cut short, but you know, I like finding a good answer even more. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3E4CE839.3AE05FBA@mail.dk> Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:10:24 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1045335190 195.82.196.115 (Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:53:10 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:53:10 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111843 "Troels Forchhammer" skrev i en meddelelse news:3E4CE839.3AE05FBA@mail.dk... > That the repetition should be merely hidden horn blowers is too > prosaic an explanation for my tastes - we are told that it is the > echoes that does not die - not that it's someone else blowing ... The idea that the continuing echoes be attributed to hidden horncallers has a taint to me. It smells somewhat of deception. That a commander use music to strengthen his men's courage is just good strategy as well as good care of his men - unless he pretend that the music come from eg. a divine source. If king Théoden had sent secret horncallers up in the cliffs to make it appear as if Helm had returned and it were he who were repeating the horncalls, this would be just that kind of deception. I would expect it of Saruman. Not of Théoden, or Gandalf, or Aragorn, or even Denethor: it would be far beneath any of them. (Denethor may have had his faults, but a lying craven he was not.) Voron. ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:17:41 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1045335191 195.82.196.115 (Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:53:11 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:53:11 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111845 "Steuard Jensen" skrev i en meddelelse news:BM%2a.81$K4.30852@news.uchicago.edu... > Ooooh! You must have known my fondness for possible "nature spirits" > in Middle-earth when you shared this idea. :) Sorry, but I had no particular thought for your tastes, Steuard. We just think somewhat alike in this matter, it seems. At any rate, I did not have so much a *sentient* entity in mind as a *purposeful* one, and in Tolkien's universe it seems to me that you may have purpose without sentience, or awareness-of-being-aware. The Elven-rope from Lórien is an example, and much else that the Elves made, and also much that the Enemy made: the makers could put somewhat of their purposes, evil in the latter case, into that which they made: that was part of their "magic" abilities. Rabe. ###### From: this@address.is.fake (jeff...) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 03:07:42 GMT Organization: EaglesFlyingHigh.com Message-ID: <3e4f0040.16624627@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3E4C377C.4000206@durham.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: i117-210.nv.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1045364814 18746 203.59.117.210 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111880 On Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:25:32 +0000, Jamie Armstrong wrote: >It's not impossible in legends: there's a legend that if someone beats >Francis Drake's drum in a time of crisis, it will bring the old seadog >back to lead us to victory (or summat). If someone did that, and Drake actually did turn up, don't you think that would still come as a bit of a surprise in spite of the legend? jeff... "...and I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those meddling hobbits!" - Sauron, F.A.1 ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 11:26:29 +0000 Organization: University of Durham Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3E4F7565.9010805@durham.ac.uk> References: <3E4C377C.4000206@durham.ac.uk> <3e4f0040.16624627@news.m.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: howlan04.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sirius.dur.ac.uk 1045394788 9851 129.234.54.4 (16 Feb 2003 11:26:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@durham.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 11:26:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!newsfeed.esat.net!feeder.news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111860 jeff... wrote: > On Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:25:32 +0000, Jamie Armstrong > wrote: > >>It's not impossible in legends: there's a legend that if someone beats >>Francis Drake's drum in a time of crisis, it will bring the old seadog >>back to lead us to victory (or summat). > > If someone did that, and Drake actually did turn up, don't you think > that would still come as a bit of a surprise in spite of the legend? > Well, *I'd* be taken aback for a start! :) Jamie ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3E4CE839.3AE05FBA@mail.dk> Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 22:12:55 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1045430132 195.82.196.88 (Sun, 16 Feb 2003 22:15:32 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 22:15:32 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111869 "Yuk Tang" skrev i en meddelelse news:b2nnkp$1csfav$1@ID-134236.news.dfncis.de... > > If king Théoden had sent secret horncallers up in the cliffs to make > > it appear as if Helm had returned and it were he who were repeating > > the horncalls, this would be just that kind of deception. I would > > expect it of Saruman. Not of Théoden, or Gandalf, or Aragorn, > > or even Denethor: it would be far beneath any of them. > > (Denethor may have had his faults, but a lying craven he was not.) > Presumably you're not a fan of Sun Tzu. I'm not a fan of anyone. As for Sun Tzu, it has been some time since I read his book. When it comes to mobility of your army, choosing the battleground most advantageous to you, deceiving the enemy when you can, avoiding unwinnable or overly costly wars when you can, then I'm all in favour of that. Also treating your defeated enemies with humanity. Wasn't it also Sun Tzu who stated that the best general is the one who can win the war without fighting any battles, simply by maneuvering and preparing so well that the enemy realizes that he might as well cave in? Or was that commentary in a later compilation? Deceiving your own soldiers is morally wrong, and may bite you in the ass later. The villagers ceased to trust the shepherd-boy who cried wolf, after all. Wu[1] Ya[1]. ###### From: morfalas@yahoo.com (Morthond) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: 17 Feb 2003 01:29:17 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.58.53.42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1045474157 15340 127.0.0.1 (17 Feb 2003 09:29:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2003 09:29:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111946 "Raven" wrote in message news:... > "Steuard Jensen" skrev i en meddelelse > news:BM%2a.81$K4.30852@news.uchicago.edu... > > > Ooooh! You must have known my fondness for possible "nature spirits" > > in Middle-earth when you shared this idea. :) > Sorry, but I had no particular thought for your tastes, Steuard. We just > think somewhat alike in this matter, it seems. At any rate, I did not have > so much a *sentient* entity in mind as a *purposeful* one, and in Tolkien's > universe it seems to me that you may have purpose without sentience, or > awareness-of-being-aware. The Elven-rope from Lórien is an example, and > much else that the Elves made, and also much that the Enemy made: the makers > could put somewhat of their purposes, evil in the latter case, into that > which they made: that was part of their "magic" abilities. > > Rabe. I think this is the most accurate and close-to-target shot yet. It beautifully links up with Tolkien´s comments on "magic" as seen and described by the elves in "letters.." Also, the rope example is a good one. Another good quote is the one where the elves respond to the hobbits question on wether the cloacks were magic. They were woven by Galadriel and her maidens, and Tolkien seems to hint that the properties imbedded to an artifact are in proportion with the item´s maker power, alignment and fana. Thus - The ring, the cloacks, lembas, the wizards´staffs, the hobbits blades from Westernesse, sting, glamdring, etc... One could argue the same case for places. A good example is Eregion (Hollin), where the stones still mourned over the lost Noldor (but the trees did not), the anger in Fangorn forest, Mirkwood, The Shire itself was imbedded with "magic" in a very hobbittish-kuduk way. More examples would include the Brown lands, laid waste by Sauron, Lorien and Rivendel (through the elven rings), Tol Brandir, and, finally Helm´s Deep. Tolkien always established a strong "connection" between the people and the land, in a very Arthuric way. Cheers Morthond ###### From: bravenewwhirl@postmaster.co.uk (BraveNewWhirl) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: 17 Feb 2003 03:46:16 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <3E4CE839.3AE05FBA@mail.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.112.10.21 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1045482376 26030 127.0.0.1 (17 Feb 2003 11:46:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2003 11:46:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111949 > Deceiving your own soldiers is morally wrong, and may bite you in the ass > later. The villagers ceased to trust the shepherd-boy who cried wolf, after > all. > > Wu[1] Ya[1]. If you believe the "soldiers" should be told everything then you have never managed. Of if you have managed, you have not done it well. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:12:17 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3E4CE839.3AE05FBA@mail.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q220.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1045505621 7250 212.205.254.220 (17 Feb 2003 18:13:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:13:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!bnewspeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111915 "Yuk Tang" wrote in message news:b2pd5q$1eam2l$1@ID-134236.news.dfncis.de... > > "Raven" wrote in message > news:UbT3a.124$u25.11@news.get2net.dk... > > > > Deceiving your own soldiers is morally wrong, and may bite you in the > > ass > > later. The villagers ceased to trust the shepherd-boy who cried wolf, > > after all. > > So any attempt to increase your men's morale by fairly conventional means > (posting morale-boosters at regular intervals) is wrong? There's a difference between increasing your men's morale, and increasing your men's morale by outright *lying* to them... The latter is going to bite you in the ass, in the end. Men ought to trust their commanders, and lying won't do the job. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3E4C377C.4000206@durham.ac.uk> <3e4f0040.16624627@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3E4F7565.9010805@durham.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:16:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.195.55.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1045509389 80.195.55.182 (Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:16:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:16:29 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111950 "Jamie Armstrong" wrote in message news:3E4F7565.9010805@durham.ac.uk... > jeff... wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:25:32 +0000, Jamie Armstrong > > wrote: > > > >>It's not impossible in legends: there's a legend that if someone beats > >>Francis Drake's drum in a time of crisis, it will bring the old seadog > >>back to lead us to victory (or summat). > > > > If someone did that, and Drake actually did turn up, don't you think > > that would still come as a bit of a surprise in spite of the legend? > > > Well, *I'd* be taken aback for a start! > :) Especially when he appears with his head tucked underneath his arm ;-) -- Jette (aka Vinyaduriel) "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3E4C377C.4000206@durham.ac.uk> <3e4f0040.16624627@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3E4F7565.9010805@durham.ac.uk> <3E5147F6.3080008@durham.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:36:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.195.55.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1045521398 80.195.55.182 (Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:36:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:36:38 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111965 "Jamie Armstrong" wrote in message news:3E5147F6.3080008@durham.ac.uk... > Jette Goldie wrote: > > "Jamie Armstrong" wrote in message > > news:3E4F7565.9010805@durham.ac.uk... > > > >>jeff... wrote: > >> > >>>If someone did that, and Drake actually did turn up, don't you think > >>>that would still come as a bit of a surprise in spite of the legend? > >>> > >> > >>Well, *I'd* be taken aback for a start! > >>:) > > > > Especially when he appears with his head tucked underneath > > his arm ;-) > > > That were Walter Raleigh... > :) > > I could have sworn Drake got the chop too. Lizzie was her daddy's daughter after all ;-) -- Jette (aka Vinyaduriel) "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:43:01 +0000 Organization: University of Durham Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3E517385.9000308@durham.ac.uk> References: <3E4C377C.4000206@durham.ac.uk> <3e4f0040.16624627@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3E4F7565.9010805@durham.ac.uk> <3E5147F6.3080008@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: howlan10.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sirius.dur.ac.uk 1045525379 1212 129.234.54.10 (17 Feb 2003 23:42:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@durham.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:42:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!surfnet.nl!news.wind.surfnet.nl!feeder.news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111958 Jette Goldie wrote: > I could have sworn Drake got the chop too. Lizzie was > her daddy's daughter after all ;-) > She was indeed, but fate got the better of her with this one: "He died at sea on his final voyage, off the coast of Panama, in Nombre de Dios Bay. He had been suffering from dysentery for several days and in January 1596 he finally died. His body was placed inside a lead casket and he was then slipped overboard. Two other ships, his most recent prizes, were sunk near his body. He was about 54 years old." http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server.php?request=setTemplate:singlecontent&contentTypeA=conWebDoc&contentId=140&viewPage=2 He did get quite a funeral: 2 ships?! Hardly a proper Christian burial! :) Jamie ###### From: "johnj" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3E4CE839.3AE05FBA@mail.dk> Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:22:04 -0000 Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-135-19-60-62.vip.uk.com Message-ID: <3e5259fe$1_3@news1.vip.uk.com> X-Trace: news1.vip.uk.com 1045584382 modem-135-19-60-62.vip.uk.com (18 Feb 2003 16:06:22 0000) X-Report: Report abuse to nntpabuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111972 Yuk Tang wrote in message news:b2pd5q$1eam2l$1@ID-134236.news.dfncis.de... > And for all their adulation of this great leader, the British were still > objective enough to decide that they didn't want this warmongerer in charge > of the country in peacetime. > What an abject load of nonsense. Really ... ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3E4C377C.4000206@durham.ac.uk> <3e4f0040.16624627@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3E4F7565.9010805@durham.ac.uk> <3E5147F6.3080008@durham.ac.uk> <3E517385.9000308@durham.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <7zp4a.8842$mT.79617207@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:21:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.195.55.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1045570883 80.195.55.182 (Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:21:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:21:23 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:112026 "Jamie Armstrong" wrote > "He died at sea on his final voyage, off the coast of Panama, in Nombre > de Dios Bay. He had been suffering from dysentery for several days I know how he felt :-( (why do you think I'm sitting here answering you at 12.17 on a Tuesday) -- Jette (aka Vinyaduriel) "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:53:39 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3e5264af.100309717@news.compuserve.com> References: <2b413897.0302140652.54391f70@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-ner-vty52.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1045587395 3351 216.192.67.52 (18 Feb 2003 16:56:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:56:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111999 On Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:54:03 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > "the echoes did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the > hills; nearer now and louder they answered one to another, blowing > fierce and free." > >And the Erkenbrand quote is > > "There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider, clad in white, > shining in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were > sounding. Behind him, hastening down the long slopes, were a > thousand men on foot... Amid them strode a man tall and > strong. ... As he came to the valley's brink, he set to his lips a > great black horn and blew a ringing blast." Yes: I'd always simply thought the extra horns were simply Erkenbrand and the Westfolders. No need for anything supernatural: just good timing. Jim Deutch -- ULTRA Loves Those Recursive Acronyms ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <3E4CE839.3AE05FBA@mail.dk> Subject: Re: The Horn of Helm Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:01:34 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.111 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1045601197 195.82.196.111 (Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:46:37 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:46:37 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!luth.se!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111970 "Yuk Tang" skrev i en meddelelse news:b2pd5q$1eam2l$1@ID-134236.news.dfncis.de... > > Deceiving your own soldiers is morally wrong, and may bite you in the > > ass later. The villagers ceased to trust the shepherd-boy who cried > > wolf, after all. > So any attempt to increase your men's morale by fairly conventional means > (posting morale-boosters at regular intervals) is wrong? After all, if > that was indeed the explanation, Theoden wasn't specifically telling > his men that Helm was back; just playing on the legend. And imhoe playing so strongly on it that it would have crossed into the realm of lies. Somewhat similar to an adventurer encountering a technologically primitive tribe and using modern technology to indicate to them that he is a god - without explicitly saying "I am a god". > There is such a thing as a metaphorical interpretation of a legend you > know. For instance, one of the stories tells that Churchill, in WWII, > was Arthur returned. Does this mean that people believed that the > old King was back in person? Or just that the spirit of the Arthur > legend, representing the essence of Englishness, was returned in the > person of WSC? It does not seem to me that the reaction of the Rohirric warriors to the horn-blasts was that they were to them a metaphoric interpretation of old Helm Hammerhand. Though too little is shown of the full range of their reaction, or their cultural sophistication, so to speak, to make my case stand in court. As it is written, it simply seems to me that the Rohirrim thought that Helm, the wraith of Helm, or some other manifestation of Helm, had returned, and had done so independently of any conscious machinations of Théoden but simply in response to the first horn-blast. And so, if these remarkable echoes were really a scheme of Théoden's, this would establish him as a deceiver of his own men. Wu[1] Ya[1].