From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: what are they?] Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:19:18 +0000 Lines: 129 Message-ID: <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> References: <6Br1a.561$Ni6.460@nntpserver.swip.net> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.121.111 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 1045005475 10322 217.134.121.111 (11 Feb 2003 23:17:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2003 23:17:55 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111449 "T. T. Arvind" wrote: > [snip] > > > Avari would be frightened of death just the same as mortals, since they > > have no idea that they can be re-embodied. > > Is that right? There would have been several generations of Avari before > the summons. Surely at least one of them had an accidental death of some > sort, in which case re-embodiment ought to have been a natural > consequence. Is there anything which positively shows that they did > *not* know of the possibility? I seem to remember reading a bit in HoME > about a discussion on what to do with slain elves, but I don't remember > what it says about Avari. This is an interesting area - the generations of the Elves. How many generations were there before the summons (and before the slaying of the trees), and how many Elves were there? We don't have anywhere near enough information for even a halfway canonical answer, but I got bored at work towards the end of last year, and created a spreadsheet based on some assumptions to see if I got sensible answers: 1. The dates given in Morgoth's Ring (MR) are correct. 2. The VY: YS ratio is 9.582 (not 144:1) 3. The numbers of Elves awakening is as given in "Quendi and Eldar" (sub-assumption: the ratios of the elven divisions are as stated there) 4. (To be defined and explained later in the post) 5. (To be defined and explained later in the post) The Awakening was in YT 1050; the summons was YT 1101 (from Morgoth's Ring). However, the Elves were discovered by Oromë in YT 1085 The number of generations is dependant upon the ages of the Elves at marriage and giving birth; and upon the number (and chronological spread) of children. Data on this can be gleaned from "Laws and Customs" (L&C) in MR; also looking through the Annals can give some example dates. The history in general can provide supporting (or otherwise) hints to some of the conclusions. In L&C, we are told (by Ælfwine) that Elves grow initially at similar rates to humans, but as infancy continues, they start ageing slower than us, and are not full grown until they are 50-100 years old (Years of the Sun is implicit in this passage). In the next paragraph, after the bracketed preamble by Ælfwine, we are told that the Eldar wed "soon after their fiftieth year". From the fact that it is shortly after the implicit YS description given in the preamble, our first conlusion is that the Eldar wed after c. 5 Valian Years. But in the Annals, the only birth-marriage dates that I can find explicitly are of Finarfin (or "Finrod" as he was at this stage), which are : Born 1230, married 1280. From the histories, the other houses of the Finwëans seemed to be pretty much chronologically similar, generations-wise. So my 4th assumption, which is not really supportable is that Ælfwine got confused by the differing years (possibly conflating two or more lectures given him by various Elves to form his smmaries), and that Elven generations were about 50 Valian years, or 480-ish Years of the Sun. To reflect the more urgent pace of populating the species in the earliest years, the first generations were put at 40 VY (slackening back off to 50 VY by YT 1170 - the 5th generation). This has no support apart from my whims. The size of early elven families can also be inferred: "There were seldom more than 4 children in any house, and the number grew less as ages passed; but even in days of old, while the Eldar were still few and eager to increase there kind, Fëanor was renowned as the father of seven sons, and the histories record none that surpassed him" (from MR). Here, I inferred that the numbers of kiddies per family tended to be larger in very early years, dropping quickly to four or so (in early years, and below that as the Elder Days drifted past. By the Second and Third Ages, the average could have been below 2 per family. For my assumption, I started with 5 children per generation in the early years, tapering off to 4 per generation by the 5th generation. I also assumed that the Awakened Elves were adult upon awakening, and that the children in any given generation were spread out at approximately equal intervals over 1 generation. To skew the figures, I "lost" a few of generations 1 (the Awakened) and 2 to the servants of Melkor (about a twelth of Gen 1 and a twelth of the Gen 2 that were born (the loss of Gen 1 Elves had repercussions on subsequent generations). So that really should be assumption 6. Obviously, the error bars are now huge. But the answers that I got were: At the time that the Eldar were discovered, there were about 500 Elves. By the summons, this was up to over 600 (including the first Gen 3 Elves, who would have been up to 11 VY old (100 YS)). By the Sundering, there were ~688 Elves: who became 67 Vanyar, 134 Noldor, 220 Teleri and 268 Avari (small hosts, I'll agree, but maybe big enough to count). By the time that the Teleri arrive at Aman, there were ~1570 Elves: 153 Vanyar, 305 Noldor, 218 Teleri, 283 Sindar+Nandor, and 610 Avari. By the time of the loss of the Two Trees, the first Gen 11 Elves are alive, the bulk of the population is Gen 8 or Gen 9, and the total population is about 85,000 - 90,000: c. 8,500 Vanyar, 16,000-17,000 Noldor, c.12,000 Teleri, 15,000-16,000 Sindar+Nandor and 31,000-39,000 Avari. The numbers can be taken forward to provide sensible figures during the War of the Jewel (I was very pleased to find that I got a figure of c.12,500 for the full host of Gondolin at the time of the Nirnaeth - pretty close to the 10,000 that Turgon actually led out). Obviously all of the above is conjecture and built upon very shaky foundations, but it made a very boring day at work last year go by a lot quicker :-) -- Andy Cooke ###### Lines: 25 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 12 Feb 2003 17:43:08 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-mm) Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Message-ID: <20030212124308.21188.00000708@mb-mm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!skynet.be!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111489 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >Quoth Jay Calvert in article >: >> At the time of the loss of the trees, the Finweans still had many >> 3rd generation elves that were unmarried (Galadriel, Finrod, Amrod, >> Amras, at least several of the sons of Feanor), and the 4th >> generation was "young" (Gil Galad, Idril). > >An important point that is easily overlooked is that there's no direct >evidence that Ingwe, Finwe, or Elwe _were_ "first generation" Elves. In fact the opposite. Elwe had brothers and thus was not first generation. I don't buy the comparison to the siblings among the Valar who were brothers 'in the heart of Iluvatar' Russ ------------------------------------------- Boycott Old Europe: France and Germany Boycott ungrateful South Korea 'It should come as no surprise the French won't help us kick Saddam out of Iraq, they wouldn't even help us kick Hitler out of France.' ###### From: Jay Calvert Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: what are they?] Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:39:12 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 References: <6Br1a.561$Ni6.460@nntpserver.swip.net> <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111504 > From: Andy Cooke > Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com > Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:19:18 +0000 > Subject: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: what > are they?] > > By the time of the loss of the Two Trees, the first Gen 11 Elves > are alive, the bulk of the population is Gen 8 or Gen 9, and the > total population is about 85,000 - 90,000: > c. 8,500 Vanyar, 16,000-17,000 Noldor, c.12,000 Teleri, > 15,000-16,000 Sindar+Nandor and 31,000-39,000 Avari. I wonder why the royal house of Finwe (and the noble Sindar as well) seemed to have a much longer generation time. At the time of the loss of the trees, the Finweans still had many 3rd generation elves that were unmarried (Galadriel, Finrod, Amrod, Amras, at least several of the sons of Feanor), and the 4th generation was "young" (Gil Galad, Idril). Meanwhile, the general population was, according the calculations above, starting generation 11. Likewise, Celeborn was 3rd generation and unmarried. Luthien may be a special case, but she was only 2nd generation and unmarried. Moving to the end of the 3rd age, Arwen and her brothers were only 5th generation and (IIRC) Legolas son of Thranduil was also 5th generation. Maybe the royals have better things to do than reproduce... Jay ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: what are they?] References: <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 28 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1045071214 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:33:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:33:34 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: Ozv2a-9597-K4-12517@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: e13084c2 3c9abe20 e88a1a63 412b98a2 004c3dd9 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:33:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111497 Quoth Jay Calvert in article : > At the time of the loss of the trees, the Finweans still had many > 3rd generation elves that were unmarried (Galadriel, Finrod, Amrod, > Amras, at least several of the sons of Feanor), and the 4th > generation was "young" (Gil Galad, Idril). An important point that is easily overlooked is that there's no direct evidence that Ingwe, Finwe, or Elwe _were_ "first generation" Elves. That may be a reasonable assumption, but it definitely isn't a necessary one. It's quite possible, for example, that they were simply the most respected leaders of the Elves, or that they were just the three Elves brave enough to leave the others. It's even possible that with Morgoth's evil creatures lurking in the woods, many of the First Elves were hunted down and killed before they became aware of their peril (or after). Oh, and for the record, if Finwe _was_ first generation, then Gil-galad would be fifth, not fourth. His ancestry was almost certainly Finwe --> Finarfin --> Angrod --> Orodreth --> Gil-galad (Making him the son of Fingon was one of Christopher Tolkien's errors in compiling the published _Silmarillion_, and the full story is given in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_, in a section of the essay "The Shibboleth of Feanor".) Steuard Jensen ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: what are they?] Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:45:26 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <6Br1a.561$Ni6.460@nntpserver.swip.net> <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp137-97.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1045043053 25737 62.118.137.97 (12 Feb 2003 09:44:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:44:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.rosnet.ru!rosnet!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111512 Andy Cooke wrote: > "T. T. Arvind" wrote: > > > [snip] > > > > > > Avari would be frightened of death just the same as mortals, since they > > > have no idea that they can be re-embodied. > > > > Is that right? There would have been several generations of Avari before > > the summons. Surely at least one of them had an accidental death of some > > sort, in which case re-embodiment ought to have been a natural > > consequence. Is there anything which positively shows that they did > > *not* know of the possibility? I seem to remember reading a bit in HoME > > about a discussion on what to do with slain elves, but I don't remember > > what it says about Avari. > > This is an interesting area - the generations of the Elves. How > many generations were there before the summons (and before the > slaying of the trees), and how many Elves were there? We don't > have anywhere near enough information for even a halfway > canonical answer, but I got bored at work towards the end of last > year, and created a spreadsheet based on some assumptions to see > if I got sensible answers: [snip] Saved for further perusal. Thanks a lot. Archie ###### From: "Milton" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6Br1a.561$Ni6.460@nntpserver.swip.net> <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: what are they?] Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 01:20:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.31.102.119 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1045012818 65.31.102.119 (Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:20:18 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:20:18 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!cyclone.mw.ipsvc.net!news.mw.ipsvc.net!cyclone.kc.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111528 "Andy Cooke" wrote in message news:3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com... | This is an interesting area - the generations of the Elves. How | many generations were there before the summons (and before the | slaying of the trees), and how many Elves were there? We don't | have anywhere near enough information for even a halfway | canonical answer, but I got bored at work towards the end of last | year, and created a spreadsheet based on some assumptions to see | if I got sensible answers: | Andy Cooke A few points: 1. You must have some time on your hands. 2. When I have time on my hands I tend also to become involved in the sort of conjecture and calculation you describe in your post. 3. I find your results informative and fascinating. 4. I guess I should be doing something more constructive such as protesting against war or researching the AIDS vaccine but I spend more time wondering how the Elves of Lorien economy worked. I mean did they actually produce anything? What did they live on? Mallorn fruit? Did they ranch? Farm? Any trade at all? Oh, well. Milton ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: what are they?] Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:59:15 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <6Br1a.561$Ni6.460@nntpserver.swip.net> <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> <74009d78.0302120032.108122e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-labs.di.uoa.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1045069988 52325 195.134.65.101 (12 Feb 2003 17:13:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:13:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111499 "ssmmbfcs" wrote in message news:74009d78.0302120032.108122e@posting.google.com... > Andy Cooke wrote in message news:<3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com>... > > > > At the time that the Eldar were discovered, there were about 500 > > Elves. By the summons, this was up to over 600 (including the > > first Gen 3 Elves, who would have been up to 11 VY old (100 YS)). > > > Was not Fëanor the first born Eldar? Tolkien briefly mentioned something like that, with Feanor being born on the journey of the elves westwards - but Tolkien also quickly scribbled that out, deciding that Feanor was born in Aman instead... Aris Katsaris ###### From: fernandofcsmx@yahoo.com.mx (ssmmbfcs) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: what are they?] Date: 12 Feb 2003 00:32:46 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 11 Message-ID: <74009d78.0302120032.108122e@posting.google.com> References: <6Br1a.561$Ni6.460@nntpserver.swip.net> <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.246.36.75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1045038767 16650 127.0.0.1 (12 Feb 2003 08:32:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2003 08:32:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111520 Andy Cooke wrote in message news:<3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com>... > > At the time that the Eldar were discovered, there were about 500 > Elves. By the summons, this was up to over 600 (including the > first Gen 3 Elves, who would have been up to 11 VY old (100 YS)). > Was not Fëanor the first born Eldar?, peviously, were not the woken Eldar at Cuivienen the only elves alive? ¿?, ssmmbfcs ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves ofSauron: what are they?] Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:31:49 +0000 Lines: 63 Message-ID: <3E4AA125.D1C2E4A5@hotmail.com> References: <6Br1a.561$Ni6.460@nntpserver.swip.net> <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.231.165 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 1045078226 9764 217.134.231.165 (12 Feb 2003 19:30:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2003 19:30:26 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111468 Jay Calvert wrote: > > > From: Andy Cooke > > Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com > > Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien > > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:19:18 +0000 > > Subject: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: what > > are they?] > > > > By the time of the loss of the Two Trees, the first Gen 11 Elves > > are alive, the bulk of the population is Gen 8 or Gen 9, and the > > total population is about 85,000 - 90,000: > > c. 8,500 Vanyar, 16,000-17,000 Noldor, c.12,000 Teleri, > > 15,000-16,000 Sindar+Nandor and 31,000-39,000 Avari. > > I wonder why the royal house of Finwe (and the noble Sindar as well) seemed > to have a much longer generation time. At the time of the loss of the > trees, the Finweans still had many 3rd generation elves that were unmarried > (Galadriel, Finrod, Amrod, Amras, at least several of the sons of Feanor), > and the 4th generation was "young" (Gil Galad, Idril). Meanwhile, the > general population was, according the calculations above, starting > generation 11. > > Likewise, Celeborn was 3rd generation and unmarried. Luthien may be a > special case, but she was only 2nd generation and unmarried. > > Moving to the end of the 3rd age, Arwen and her brothers were only 5th > generation and (IIRC) Legolas son of Thranduil was also 5th generation. > > Maybe the royals have better things to do than reproduce... > > Jay Your point is valid, but a clarification: One implicit assumption (that perhaps I should have made explicit) is that the leaders of the Hosts were not 1st generation - the Awakened Elves awoke in pairs. Elwë had no wife before meeting Melian, thus it can be inferred that he was 2nd or 3rd generation (this also makes the fact that he had brothers easier to account for without speculating that they were "brothers in the thought of Eru", like some of the Valar (Excerpts from "The Ruin of Doriath" notwithstanding; that chapter was created by Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay in a valiant attempt to close the Silmarillion according to JRRTs perceived wishes, and Christopher Tolkien seemed to feel that he had overstepped the editorial bounds in so doing). Thus Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë and Olwë were at least 2nd generation, and possibly 3rd (if they were the eldest children of the eldest children of the Awakened generation, they could have been ~100 solar yearsold at Oromë's summons - it _could_ be argued that the rashness of youth could contribute to their adventurousness in accepting Oromë's offer to show them around Valinor). Thus Fëanor's generation would be Gen 3 or 4; Finrod, Galadriel and co would be Gen 4 or 5, Orodreth and Idril would be Gen 5 or 6, Gil-galad and Earendil would be Gen 6 or 7. Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir would thus be Gen 8 or 9. -- Andy Cooke ###### From: Jay Calvert Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves ofSauron: what are they?] Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 00:50:03 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 References: <6Br1a.561$Ni6.460@nntpserver.swip.net> <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> <3E4AA125.D1C2E4A5@hotmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111637 > From: Andy Cooke > Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com > Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:31:49 +0000 > Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves ofSauron: > what are they?] > > Thus Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë and Olwë were at least 2nd generation, > and possibly 3rd (if they were the eldest children of the eldest > children of the Awakened generation, they could have been ~100 > solar yearsold at Oromë's summons - it _could_ be argued that the > rashness of youth could contribute to their adventurousness in > accepting Oromë's offer to show them around Valinor). > > Thus Fëanor's generation would be Gen 3 or 4; Finrod, Galadriel > and co would be Gen 4 or 5, Orodreth and Idril would be Gen 5 or > 6, Gil-galad and Earendil would be Gen 6 or 7. > > Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir would thus be Gen 8 or 9. > ...or generation 6 or 7, if calculated through the Galadriel/Celebrian line (one of the "pure elf" lines of descent for the children of Elrond). OK, I've been convinced that Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe, Olwe were probably not first generation. I wonder if there were many (any?) 1st generation elves in Beleriand at the time of the War of the Jewels? Cirdan? Jay ###### From: "Gork the Slaughterer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:35:42 -0800 Organization: Oregon State University Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <6Br1a.561$Ni6.460@nntpserver.swip.net> <3E4984F6.B7F74B3B@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp01-083.nws.orst.edu X-Trace: news.orst.edu 1045564269 29590 128.193.88.83 (18 Feb 2003 10:31:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@orst.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:31:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.nerdc.ufl.edu!news.uidaho.edu!news.oregonstate.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:111971 ELVES GET SMASHED BY US BIG STRONG ORCS ALL THOSE LONG YEARS! BWAHAHAHAHA!!! -- It may look like an orc, smell like an orc, but it's probably a troll in disguise... BEWARE, FOR NONE CAN BEAT ME IN MY UNIVERSE, AND ALL PUNIES WILL DIE WHO TRY: http://www.shadowmere.co.uk Clotilde wrote in message news:v4lf4glo2q5gef@corp.supernews.com... > > Jay Calvert wrote: > >> From: Andy Cooke > >> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com > >> Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien > >> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:19:18 +0000 > >> Subject: Elven populations and generations [was Re: Werewolves of Sauron: > what > >> are they?] > >> > >> By the time of the loss of the Two Trees, the first Gen 11 Elves > >> are alive, the bulk of the population is Gen 8 or Gen 9, and the > >> total population is about 85,000 - 90,000: > >> c. 8,500 Vanyar, 16,000-17,000 Noldor, c.12,000 Teleri, > >> 15,000-16,000 Sindar+Nandor and 31,000-39,000 Avari. > > > >I wonder why the royal house of Finwe (and the noble Sindar as well) seemed > >to have a much longer generation time. At the time of the loss of the > >trees, the Finweans still had many 3rd generation elves that were unmarried > >(Galadriel, Finrod, Amrod, Amras, at least several of the sons of Feanor), > >and the 4th generation was "young" (Gil Galad, Idril). Meanwhile, the > >general population was, according the calculations above, starting > >generation 11. > > > >Likewise, Celeborn was 3rd generation and unmarried. Luthien may be a > >special case, but she was only 2nd generation and unmarried. > > > >Moving to the end of the 3rd age, Arwen and her brothers were only 5th > >generation and (IIRC) Legolas son of Thranduil was also 5th generation. > > > >Maybe the royals have better things to do than reproduce... > > > >Jay > > > What DO Elves do all those long years? > Maybe they just figure they've got all the time in the world. Why get tied > down now? > Or maybe they are afraid of fallling in love because if they lose the love > of their lives they can die of grief. > What happens if they fall deeply in love with someone not in love with them? > Do they die then also?