User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2106 Subject: The Dark Elves From: Tar Ancalime Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:16:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.160.21.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1043291805 68.160.21.162 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:16:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:16:45 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109955 Hi. I've been wondering [well, worrying ;-)] about them. I figure that the ones that refused the call eventually assimilated/cross-bred with Men, weakening their (potential) powers and that probably many met their end due to physical "death" or the heartbreak and spiritual ruin they experienced in the world. Were those "dead" Dark Elves allowed into the Halls of Mandos? Did they experience punishment for their refusal (at the nefarious suggestions of Melkor/Morgoth)? I wonder also if they ever actually *knew* that they were Elves (apart from realizing that, oddly, they were living way longer than Men) and what they were missing out on. Were their descendants (Elven or Half-Elven) refused passage to the West and/or refused the choice of immortality vs. the Gift of Men? I can't believe Eru would allow this. Just thinking, thanks. Silm presently on loan. Anc ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:36:33 -0800 Organization: dis mariposa Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c7.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109994 > I wonder also if they ever actually *knew* that they were Elves (apart from > realizing that, oddly, they were living way longer than Men) and what they > were missing out on. Were their descendants (Elven or Half-Elven) refused > passage to the West and/or refused the choice of immortality vs. the Gift of > Men? I can't believe Eru would allow this. jrrt seemed to have a different notion of authority than most americans would accept in the usa authority comes from the people and authority figures only have legitimacy when they act in accord with the will of the people in middleearth being an authority figure was itself legitimacy so the valar were the authorities and when they invited elves to aman even though eru had not told them to do so the elves who refused had acted against that authority and were in the wrong and even though eru did not say noldor had to stay in aman when noldor left against the wishes of the valar that was again acting against authority and were in the wrong ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2106 Subject: Re: The Dark Elves From: Tar Ancalime Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:01:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.160.21.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1043294488 68.160.21.162 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:01:28 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:01:28 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109954 in article mair_fheal-2201031936330001@c7.ppp.tsoft.com, coyotes rand mair fheal at mair_fheal@yahoo.com wrote on 1/22/03 10:36 PM: > > jrrt seemed to have a different notion of authority > than most americans would accept OK, American. Idealistic. Hopeful. Naive. Yet strangely realistic. > in the usa authority comes from the people > and authority figures only have legitimacy > when they act in accord with the will of the people Ideally. > > in middleearth being an authority figure > was itself legitimacy So Sauruman was legitimate? According to whose law? OK, if the Valar didn't know (and how could they not have? Were they sleeping?) of his treachery, when he failed...he was automatically illegitimate. > > so the valar were the authorities and when they invited elves > to aman even though eru had not told them to do so > the elves who refused had acted against that authority > and were in the wrong > You'd think that the Valar would be in the doghouse for exercising such authority over the Children of Illuvatar. . But it's all His plan. He knew what was going on. You're right. But, Crud. Why, Illuvitar, Why? > and even though eru did not say noldor had to stay in aman > when noldor left against the wishes of the valar > that was again acting against authority > and were in the wrong Middle Managers. $#@& 'em. Anc ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:07:00 -0800 Organization: dis mariposa Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c7.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109992 In article , Tar Ancalime wrote: > in article mair_fheal-2201031936330001@c7.ppp.tsoft.com, coyotes rand mair > fheal at mair_fheal@yahoo.com wrote on 1/22/03 10:36 PM: > > > > > > jrrt seemed to have a different notion of authority > > than most americans would accept > > OK, American. Idealistic. Hopeful. Naive. Yet strangely realistic. > > > in the usa authority comes from the people > > and authority figures only have legitimacy > > when they act in accord with the will of the people > > Ideally. > > > > in middleearth being an authority figure > > was itself legitimacy > > So Sauruman was legitimate? According to whose law? OK, if the Valar didn't saruman wasnt supposed to be an authority figure eomer was thrown in gaol for going against the command of theoden even though eomers action furthered the fight against sauron and his inaction wouldve aided sauron ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2106 Subject: Re: The Dark Elves From: Tar Ancalime Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:35:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.160.21.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1043296533 68.160.21.162 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:35:33 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:35:33 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109958 in article mair_fheal-2201032007010001@c7.ppp.tsoft.com, coyotes rand mair fheal at mair_fheal@yahoo.com wrote on 1/22/03 11:07 PM: > saruman wasnt supposed to be an authority figure Um, he was an Istari. He was supposed to be an authority figure under strict conditions. He was Intended to be authoritative in influence, if not in outright command. Which, when he wrested it, lost it. > > eomer was thrown in gaol for going against the command of theoden > even though eomers action furthered the fight against sauron > and his inaction wouldve aided sauron Never mind, sorry...slow to think and quick to speak... I just realized that the plight of the Dark Elves = The Fall from Eden. They were seduced by the dark side due to their personal weaknesses. But I still feel sorry for them. Are they forgotten and utterly bereft? Do their descendants have to suffer for their faults? Am I beginning to understand why people say JRRT's work is "Catholic"? Just thinking Anc ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 100 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1043298541 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:09:01 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:09:01 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: NNKX9-5683-w4-4964@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: d310302b 635088bb ad495688 c560b8de 3af3fd07 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 05:09:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109922 Quoth Tar Ancalime in article : > I've been wondering [well, worrying ;-)] about them. I figure that > the ones that refused the call eventually assimilated/cross-bred > with Men I wouldn't be surprised if there were examples of that, but my own feeling is that the Elves were more likely to withdraw into isolated communities and have less and less to do with human populations. This already seemed to be occurring at the time of LotR: the Elves in Lorien were little more than legend to the nearby people of Rohan, and while the Wood-elves of Mirkwood traded with the Lake Men, it doesn't seem that their peoples mingled much (is there any indication that humans ever visited the Elvenking's own halls? The raftsmen on the Forst River were Elves, after all). And there's a general theme in LotR that the Elves and Dwarves are dwindling, not due to interbreeding but just as part of the natural progression of things. It may be important to remember (or to learn, depending on how much you've read :) ) that Tolkien made it clear the the Elves who remained in Middle-earth would eventually "fade". To quote one reasonably clear statement on the matter (from _Morgoth's Ring_, "Myths Transformed: Text XI"): "after the vitality of the _hroa_ [physical body] was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed... For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling _fea_ [spirit], and then its vitality would begin to ebb... Then an Elf would begin... to 'fade', until the _fea_ as it were consumed the _hroa_ until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it." This is one of many similar statements in Tolkien's writings, and while some of them do differ in detail his general intent is clear: after many ages, the Elves would eventually cease to interact with the physical world in any usual way. Given that, it sounds like Elves and Men would grow increasingly distant over the many years, until the groups could hardly relate to each other any more (or even interact at all, to some degree; see the essay "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" also in MR for a discussion of that). > Were those "dead" Dark Elves allowed into the Halls of Mandos? Tolkien wasn't entirely clear on this. In the section "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in _Morgoth's Ring_, we read that "Concerning the fate of the other elves, especially of the Dark-elves who refused the summons to Aman, the Eldar know little. The Re-born report that in Mandos there are many elves, and among them many of the Alamanyar [an early form of _Umanyar_: Elves of the Journey who did not reach Aman - SJ]..." It is important to note that this may not have been Tolkien's final thought on the subject: among other things, he did eventually reject the idea of Elves being "re-born" as children entirely, deciding instead that their spirits would work together with the Valar to reconstruct their former bodies, when they were ready. However, the presence in Mandos of Elves who left the Great Journey (and other more general statements) makes it seem very likely that all dead Elves were summoned there. However, the Elven spirits had the ability to refuse that summons, which one might imagine that the Avari would be likely to do. When that happened, they were subject to a "counter-summons" to Morgoth, but it is implied that at least a few may have been able to escape both summons and remain "spirits at large" in Middle-earth. This topic is discussed in slightly more detail in the relevant entry in the Tolkien Meta-FAQ, at http://tolkien.slimy.com/ > Did they experience punishment for their refusal (at the nefarious > suggestions of Melkor/Morgoth)? I believe that they would have remained in Mandos longer to be "healed" of their improper attitude (sounds disturbingly Orwellian, doesn't it? But in this case, the Valar _were_ given authority by "God", so it _might_ be okay). > I wonder also if they ever actually *knew* that they were Elves > (apart from realizing that, oddly, they were living way longer than > Men) and what they were missing out on. As I said, I think the Elves would most likely have formed close-knit communities and isolated themselves from non-Elves. I expect that they were very aware of what they were. > Were their descendants (Elven or Half-Elven) refused passage to the > West and/or refused the choice of immortality vs. the Gift of Men? I > can't believe Eru would allow this. It seems that in general, the offspring of an Elf and a human would be treated as human when it came to mortality and related issues. The choices granted to Earendil, Elwing, and their children were very much a special case. Moreover, note that Elros's choice to be mortal was apparently passed on to his children, while Elrond's children were still given one last chance to choose mortality. Iluvatar and the Valar seem to have been very hesitant to withhold the Gift of Men from anyone who could conceivably be eligible. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Message-ID: <3E2FC76B.7084D583@1.au> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:36:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.37.225 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1043318205 172.21.37.225 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:36:45 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:36:45 EET Organization: Nokia Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109989 coyotes rand mair fheal wrote: > so the valar were the authorities and when they invited elves > to aman even though eru had not told them to do so > the elves who refused had acted against that authority > and were in the wrong I'll disagree with you here and say that the Valar invited the Elves to live in Aman voluntarily. Those that declined the invitation weren't _wrong_ to decline it, they just preferred the quieter and more modest life in M-E. Being a "dark elf" doesn't imply any inclination toward evil, despite the dramatic name. These dark elves (Moriquendi) will likely live in M-E until the end of the world, unless then decide to remove to Aman later on. How they could accomplish the journey in their faded state isn't IMO very central, basically the invitation is still open and if they choose to they can still make the journey somehow. Their role in the greater scheme of things might be to preserve memories of the wide lands of Middle-earth in the quiet twilight before the making of the Sun. -JJ ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:56:46 -0800 Organization: dis mariposa Message-ID: References: <3E2FC76B.7084D583@1.au> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c89.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110001 > These dark elves (Moriquendi) will likely live in M-E until the end of > the world, unless then decide to remove to Aman later on. How they could they arent allowed to remove to aman except through bodily death and its not explicitly stated that efveen then they would be reincanated in aman > basically the invitation is still open and if they choose to they can > still make the journey somehow. the invitation is closed grey elves like legolas are permitted because he or his ancestors accepted the invitation even if they havent yet finished the journey ###### Message-ID: <3E2FE349.80E79E04@1.au> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves References: <3E2FC76B.7084D583@1.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:47:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.37.225 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1043326066 172.21.37.225 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:47:46 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:47:46 EET Organization: Nokia Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109990 coyotes rand mair fheal wrote: > > These dark elves (Moriquendi) will likely live in M-E until the end of > > the world, unless then decide to remove to Aman later on. How they could > they arent allowed to remove to aman except through bodily death > and its not explicitly stated that efveen then > they would be reincanated in aman Where is it stated that they wouldn't be allowed into Aman? WRT bodily death, In HoME X it's stated that Moriquendi "might" refuse the summons to Mandos but that would imply a taint in the individual in question. (bodily death is presumambly now unlikely anyway since the bodies have fallen to dust) -JJ ###### From: Paul.Ratliff@mail.state.ky.us (Darat9999) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: 23 Jan 2003 05:57:31 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.211.143 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1043330251 6313 127.0.0.1 (23 Jan 2003 13:57:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jan 2003 13:57:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110016 (snip most of Steuard's impeccable reasoning) Comment fom Mr. Jensen vis-a-vis the half-Elven: 'It seems that in general, the offspring of an Elf and a human would be treated as human when it came to mortality and related issues. The choices granted to Earendil, Elwing, and their children were very much a special case. Moreover, note that Elros's choice to be mortal was apparently passed on to his children, while Elrond's children were still given one last chance to choose mortality. Iluvatar and the Valar seem to have been very hesitant to withhold the Gift of Men from anyone who could conceivably be eligible.' Dear Steuard, I was wondering if you have ever considered that the difference in choices given to Elros's offspring & Elrond's offspring might have something to do with Elros's wife being a non-elf (I am assuming) & Elrond's wife being a full-blooded elf? Cheers, Paul ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves References: <3E2FC76B.7084D583@1.au> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 32 Message-ID: <_7TX9.32$w4.6502@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1043332730 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:38:50 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:38:50 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: _7TX9-8039-w4-6545@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 0dee6c43 34b4ee7e fd780e66 e61c24fb 00ea13b2 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:38:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.cs.wisc.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109920 Quoth mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal) in article : [Someone said:] > > These dark elves (Moriquendi) will likely live in M-E until the > > end of the world, unless then decide to remove to Aman later on. ... > > basically the invitation is still open and if they choose to they > > can still make the journey somehow. > the invitation is closed > grey elves like legolas are permitted because he or his ancestors > accepted the invitation even if they havent yet finished the journey We've had some discussions of this issue in the past. I don't know that they were conclusive, but _I_ came out of them with the following impression: some of the Avari gradually assimilated into populations of Eldar, largely the Silvan Elves. However, the Silvan Elves were uniformly treated as Eldar and were allowed to make the journey to Aman (as I said, my memory is that it was fairly convincing that this did _not_ depend on their ancestry, Eldar or Avari or a blend of the two). My conclusion was that the "permanance" of the choice of the Avari was in fact a statement about their own psychological makeup rather than a statement about a ban by the Valar (or perhaps the _original_ Avari were banned, but their descendants had the right to choose otherwise, although that would be unlikely unless they chose to live in the culture of the Eldar). As I said, that's just the impression that I left with. For the full discussion, you'll have to search on Google Groups, and I'm afraid I don't recall too many details about the date or subject line of the thread in question. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 04:24:03 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp128-131.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1043371662 75231 62.118.128.131 (24 Jan 2003 01:27:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:27:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110131 Darat9999 wrote: > (snip most of Steuard's impeccable reasoning) > > Comment fom Mr. Jensen vis-a-vis the half-Elven: 'It seems that in > general, the offspring of an Elf and a human would be treated as human > when it came to mortality and related issues. The choices granted to > Earendil, Elwing, and their children were very much a special case. > Moreover, note that Elros's choice to be mortal was apparently passed > on to his children, while Elrond's children were still given one last > chance to choose mortality. Iluvatar and the Valar seem to have been > very hesitant to withhold the Gift of Men from anyone who could > conceivably be eligible.' > > Dear Steuard, > > I was wondering if you have ever considered that the difference in > choices given to Elros's offspring & Elrond's offspring might have > something to do with Elros's wife being a non-elf (I am assuming) & > Elrond's wife being a full-blooded elf? I suppose not. The decision was taken by Manwe when Earendil reached Aman, and Elrond&Elros were still unwed (being captured by Maedhros & Maglor). I would deem it a case of reverse causality: each brother chose a wife from the people with whom he associated himself. Archie ###### From: Paul.Ratliff@mail.state.ky.us (Darat9999) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: 24 Jan 2003 05:39:26 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 21 Message-ID: <30ade48e.0301240539.21479fad@posting.google.com> References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.211.143 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1043415566 27128 127.0.0.1 (24 Jan 2003 13:39:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2003 13:39:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110160 Archie commented on my question regarding children of Elros/Elrond: 'I suppose not. The decision was taken by Manwe when Earendil reached Aman, and Elrond&Elros were still unwed (being captured by Maedhros & Maglor). I would deem it a case of reverse causality: each brother chose a wife from the people with whom he associated himself.' Dear Archie, I think you misunderstood my question to Steuard. I was asking about the difference in choices given to Elrond's children (the twins & Arwen) vs the apparent absence of choice given to Elros's children (don't have their names). If my assumption about Elros's wife being a member of Edain are correct, then their children were 1/4 Elvish, while Elrond's children were 3/4 Elvish. I thought maybe this was germane to the kids of Elros not having the same choice as Elrond's kids were given. Cheers, Paul ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:00:12 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> <30ade48e.0301240539.21479fad@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp139-208.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1043434810 55936 62.118.139.208 (24 Jan 2003 19:00:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:00:10 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.hostname.nl!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110128 Paul wrote: > Archie commented on my question regarding children of Elros/Elrond: 'I > suppose not. The decision was taken by Manwe when Earendil reached > Aman, and Elrond&Elros were still unwed (being captured by Maedhros & > Maglor). I would deem it a case of reverse causality: each brother > chose a wife from the people with whom he associated himself.' > > > Dear Archie, > > I think you misunderstood my question to Steuard. I was asking > about the difference in choices given to Elrond's children (the twins > & Arwen) vs the apparent absence of choice given to Elros's children > (don't have their names). If my assumption about Elros's wife being a > member of Edain are correct, then their children were 1/4 Elvish, > while Elrond's children were 3/4 Elvish. I thought maybe this was > germane to the kids of Elros not having the same choice as Elrond's > kids were given. The real problem is that there are only two Fates: the Doom of Men and the Doom of Elves. The Doom of Men (death and departure from the Circles of the World) is a Gift from Eru Iluvatar; the Valar cannot take the Gift away unless explicitly permitted by Eru. Thus, _any_ child in a mixed marriage is mortal by default. Earendil is an exception: he and his family were given an irrevocable choice - whether to accept immortality or to stay mortal. After he makes the choice, Elros technically is not a Half-elven, he stays mortal. Then, his children, irrespective of the race of his wife, are mortal. Elrond, OTOH, chose the Doom of Elves. For his future offspring the Valar (Manwe) reserved and postponed the choice because a) they were loath to take away the Gift without consent of the rightful holder, b) they may have foreseen the Aragorn-Arwen romance. Of course, Earendil had to be rewarded without violating the Ban; moreover, he had to be persuaded to become a star and a guardian of the sky - the bonus package had to be convincing. The freedom of choice for those whose parents were Half-Elven seems to be part of the package. Archie ###### From: Leons Petrazickis <02petraz@scar.utoronto.ca> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:48:06 -0500 Organization: University of Toronto at Scarborough Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3E357EE6.11CB3C24@scar.utoronto.ca> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: holstein.scar.utoronto.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: anemos.scar 1043693000 19567 142.150.160.195 (27 Jan 2003 18:43:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@scar.utoronto.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2003 18:43:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!torn!utnut!news.scar!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110279 Tar Ancalime wrote: > You'd think that the Valar would be in the doghouse for exercising such > authority over the Children of Illuvatar. . But it's all His plan. He knew > what was going on. You're right. But, Crud. Why, Illuvitar, Why? Well, the action was basically the translation of Iluvatar & Melkor's musical jam into real-world wave functions. The outcome is predetermined and we get to blame all the nasty stuff on Melkor. Leons Petrazickis import java.lang.disclaimer; ###### From: Paul.Ratliff@mail.state.ky.us (Darat9999) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: 27 Jan 2003 10:50:41 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 47 Message-ID: <30ade48e.0301271050.4fbcd650@posting.google.com> References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> <30ade48e.0301240539.21479fad@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.211.143 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1043693442 7842 127.0.0.1 (27 Jan 2003 18:50:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2003 18:50:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110569 Archie responded to my comments: 'The real problem is that there are only two Fates: the Doom of Men and the Doom of Elves. The Doom of Men (death and departure from the Circles of the World) is a Gift from Eru Iluvatar; the Valar cannot take the Gift away unless explicitly permitted by Eru. Thus, _any_ child in a mixed marriage is mortal by default. Earendil is an exception: he and his family were given an irrevocable choice - whether to accept immortality or to stay mortal. After he makes the choice, Elros technically is not a Half-elven, he stays mortal. Then, his children, irrespective of the race of his wife, are mortal. Elrond, OTOH, chose the Doom of Elves. For his future offspring the Valar (Manwe) reserved and postponed the choice because a) they were loath to take away the Gift without consent of the rightful holder, b) they may have foreseen the Aragorn-Arwen romance. Of course, Earendil had to be rewarded without violating the Ban; moreover, he had to be persuaded to become a star and a guardian of the sky - the bonus package had to be convincing. The freedom of choice for those whose parents were Half-Elven seems to be part of the package.' Dear Archie, Thank's for your clarifying response. I do surmise, and I'm probably splitting hairs here, that if Elros had married & conceived kids with an Elven lady, their kids would also have been given the same choice as Elrond's were. For even though Elros chose to be counted among mortals, he was as half-Elven as Elrond was (although I think you are saying that once he chose mortality, he was as much a man as Ghan-Buri-Ghan). Now, since he did marry a mortal woman, his kids were not 'mixed' & thus were accounted mortal (end of story there). I still think that Celebrian being a full-blooded Elf may have played some part in the decision to extend the Gift to their children. Since, by your reasoning, once Elrond chose to be among Elven kind, he was as much an Elf as Ingwe and with Celebrian being Elven-to-the-bone, you'd have thought that the children would automatically be counted among the Elves. Yet, they weren't automatically; (although when none of them dropped dead around age 400 or so, I guess they could say 'whoo, I guess I'm being counted as an Elf right now'). I wonder if the twins had sired children with Elvish wives during the 3rd Age, would they have been given the choice as well? I would think 'yes' to that hypothetical question. Anyway, enjoyed hearing your point of view in this complicated matter. Paul ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 27 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1043729117 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:45:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:45:17 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: xVnZ9-11939-J4-16113@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: b3dbe272 184423a2 c946763f ad03bfe5 47cf8cba Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 04:45:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110335 Quoth Paul.Ratliff@mail.state.ky.us (Darat9999) in article <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com>: > (snip most of Steuard's impeccable reasoning) Why thank you. :) Probably more than it deserves, but I do appreciate the compliment. :) [I said:]----------------------- > It seems that in general, the offspring of an Elf and a human > would be treated as human when it came to mortality and related > issues. The choices granted to Earendil, Elwing, and their children > were very much a special case. -------------------------------- > I was wondering if you have ever considered that the difference in > choices given to Elros's offspring & Elrond's offspring might have > something to do with Elros's wife being a non-elf (I am assuming) & > Elrond's wife being a full-blooded elf? It's certainly possible, but my impression is that the exact fraction of Elvish blood wasn't a crucial factor (Earendil and Elwing had substantially different ancestry, for example). I'm not sure if there's any stronger evidence than that. The children of Mithrellas and Galador of Dol Amroth were 50% elvish (making them less Elvish than Elrond and Elros), but they were certainly mortal. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Paul.Ratliff@mail.state.ky.us (Darat9999) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: 28 Jan 2003 05:35:09 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 18 Message-ID: <30ade48e.0301280535.49cb5eae@posting.google.com> References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.211.143 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1043760909 3330 127.0.0.1 (28 Jan 2003 13:35:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2003 13:35:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110597 Steuard answered my question: 'It's certainly possible, but my impression is that the exact fraction of Elvish blood wasn't a crucial factor (Earendil and Elwing had substantially different ancestry, for example). I'm not sure if there's any stronger evidence than that. The children of Mithrellas and Galador of Dol Amroth were 50% elvish (making them less Elvish than Elrond and Elros), but they were certainly mortal.' Dear Steuard, Thank you for your clarification. I think that between you & Archie I have a much better understanding of this special dispensation provided to some children of these mixed unions. Cheers, Paul ###### From: "Clotilde" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:43:35 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: "Clotilde" Reply-To: "Clotilde" X-User-Info: 199.253.23.1 199.253.23.1 hnowell References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110370 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth Paul.Ratliff@mail.state.ky.us (Darat9999) in article ><30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com>: >> (snip most of Steuard's impeccable reasoning) > >Why thank you. :) Probably more than it deserves, but I do appreciate >the compliment. :) > >[I said:]----------------------- >> It seems that in general, the offspring of an Elf and a human >> would be treated as human when it came to mortality and related >> issues. The choices granted to Earendil, Elwing, and their children >> were very much a special case. >-------------------------------- > >> I was wondering if you have ever considered that the difference in >> choices given to Elros's offspring & Elrond's offspring might have >> something to do with Elros's wife being a non-elf (I am assuming) & >> Elrond's wife being a full-blooded elf? > >It's certainly possible, but my impression is that the exact fraction >of Elvish blood wasn't a crucial factor (Earendil and Elwing had >substantially different ancestry, for example). I'm not sure if >there's any stronger evidence than that. The children of Mithrellas >and Galador of Dol Amroth were 50% elvish (making them less Elvish >than Elrond and Elros), but they were certainly mortal. > > Steuard Jensen I know this may be totally incorrect because I wasn't reading very very closely at the time and should probably go back and re-read the history of Elrond & Elros but for some reason I got the impression they were given the choice they were because of what had happened to the two of them before that point and the things they had done in their lives not just because of their parentage. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 25 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1043771320 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:28:40 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:28:40 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: YcyZ9-15028-J4-18503@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 28c868ee de54b955 d633d516 dcf77258 a5426f61 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:28:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.cs.wisc.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110334 Quoth sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) in article : > The children of Mithrellas and Galador of Dol Amroth were 50% elvish > (making them less Elvish than Elrond and Elros), but they were > certainly mortal. Hmm. I'm now rethinking this statement. A case could be made for Elrond and Elros having 50% "mortal" ancestry: Earendil was clearly 50/50, and if you count Luthien as mortal at the time she had children, then Elwing was 50/50 as well. In that case, the example of Mithrellas supports my overall point (if you drop the inaccurate parenthetical remark): the fraction of immortal ancestry isn't the determining factor. However, counting Luthien as "genetically" immortal would make Elwing 75% immortal, so my parenthetical remark _would_ be accurate, but then the example of Mithrellas doesn't provide any evidence at all (if anything, it supports the idea that more mortal blood means you will be mortal, though of course it's very far from proof). In either case, my statement above was incorrect. I'm just glad I was the first one to catch it. :) I still stand by my claim, though: the choice given to Earendil, Elwing, and their heirs was a special case, not the norm. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 24 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1043772146 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:42:26 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:42:26 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: SpyZ9-15086-J4-18649@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 3c265691 bfdf8029 407506dd eb1ca9b1 60291ef5 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:42:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110340 Quoth "Clotilde" in article : > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >[I said:]----------------------- > >> It seems that in general, the offspring of an Elf and a human > >> would be treated as human when it came to mortality and related > >> issues. The choices granted to Earendil, Elwing, and their > >> children were very much a special case. > I got the impression they [Elrond and Elros] were given the choice > they were because of what had happened to the two of them before > that point and the things they had done in their lives not just > because of their parentage. Well, I might need to go back to double check as well, but my recollection is that at the time the Havens were attacked by the Sons of Feanor, Elrond and Elros were still children: most chronologies seem to agree that they were at most six years old when the Havens were sacked, Earendil and Elwing crossed the Sea, and they were fostered by Maglor. Given that, I doubt that they had done very many impressive things yet in their lives. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Dark Elves Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:54:51 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp138-164.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1043776477 29914 62.118.138.164 (28 Jan 2003 17:54:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:54:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110487 Clotilde wrote: > > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >Quoth Paul.Ratliff@mail.state.ky.us (Darat9999) in article > ><30ade48e.0301230557.4ac63a37@posting.google.com>: > >> (snip most of Steuard's impeccable reasoning) > > > >Why thank you. :) Probably more than it deserves, but I do appreciate > >the compliment. :) > > > >[I said:]----------------------- > >> It seems that in general, the offspring of an Elf and a human > >> would be treated as human when it came to mortality and related > >> issues. The choices granted to Earendil, Elwing, and their children > >> were very much a special case. > >-------------------------------- > > > >> I was wondering if you have ever considered that the difference in > >> choices given to Elros's offspring & Elrond's offspring might have > >> something to do with Elros's wife being a non-elf (I am assuming) & > >> Elrond's wife being a full-blooded elf? > > > >It's certainly possible, but my impression is that the exact fraction > >of Elvish blood wasn't a crucial factor (Earendil and Elwing had > >substantially different ancestry, for example). I'm not sure if > >there's any stronger evidence than that. The children of Mithrellas > >and Galador of Dol Amroth were 50% elvish (making them less Elvish > >than Elrond and Elros), but they were certainly mortal. > > > > Steuard Jensen > > > I know this may be totally incorrect because I wasn't reading very very closely > at the time and should probably go back and re-read the history of Elrond > & Elros but for some reason I got the impression they were given the choice > they were because of what had happened to the two of them before that point > and the things they had done in their lives not just because of their parentage. By the time Manwe (even with his foresight) had to pronounce the judgement, Elrond & Elros were captives to the last Sons of Feanor. Archie