From: rjmartens@mmm.com (Rob) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:44:22 -0600 Organization: 3M Company Lines: 92 Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109787 As a new lurker to this group, I've been following some of the interesting discussions regarding the relative merits (structural) of the film depiction of the Argonath. From an engineering perspective, it certainly looks like the Engineers of Gondor, at the height of their powers, were pretty talented. Consider: Arm positioning aside, the Argonath as a set of substantial statues, has been standing for thousands of years (I don't have any of the books handy, so be patient with my memory...). Erosion by the Anduin doesn't seem to have had much impact during that time. Orthanc, although upkept and lived in, is a construction that is not only thousands of years old as well, but was so well constructed that the Ents couldn't even mar the outside of it. On the other hand, Treebeard and friends laid waste to the outer walls pretty easily (and dramatically), simply by reaching into the stone and tearing it apart. Assuming the outer walls were a later construction that would sugget that some knowledge and building techniques were lost. Why build an invincible tower, and comparatively substandard outer defenses. The circle of Isengard, intact, seems big enough to withstand a siege indefinitely if the outer defenses hold. What is the value of an invincible tower at the center if you get holed up in it and run out of provisions in a few weeks ? Also, if you can build an Isengard a few hundred miles from your main cities, why not employ the same techniques to the walls of Minis Tirith, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath ? Minas Tirith - a city, that while occupied the whole time, was built to last. Built at the edge of a mountain range (carved out of ?), it has stood intact and habitable for an age and then some. I always imagined Minas Tirith as having some pretty well worn steps in the main access areas... It seems to me that the peoples of Middle Earth, at least through the Second Age, designed and built things for the long haul. As has been pointed out previously, it certainly makes sense for the Elves to do this - who wants to have to put a new roof on Rivendell every 10 years if you plan to live there as an immortal ? The dwarves certainly expected to live in Khazad-dum for a while - if you're going to be digging tunnels all the way through a montain range, it's not just going to be a temporary residence. The towers to the west of the shire, on the way to the havens - I don't recall if these are still inhabited or not (probably not) but could they not date to even the First Age ? Wosrt case, they've been standing since the beginning of the Second Age. I'd like to see what's still standing on the island of Himling - if that is actually the hill that Maedhros fortified in the First Age - there may still be a fortress there - built the way only the sons of Feanor could build. Somehow, I can't see Maedhros putting up a wooden pallisade at the top of a hill to hold of Morgoth - I imagined the First Age forts to be pretty imposing structures (Turgon to Glorfindel - "OK, we're going to hide here on this hill behind the mountains for a few hundred years while we get ready to go after Morgoth with those cave dwellers in Nargothrond and Menegroth. See if you can get a few of the guys to quit singing for a while and throw up some walls. And a tower, with mabye a little fountain would be nice too - maybe get Ecthelion to give you a hand...") Even Weathertop, while ruined, still seems to have some walls and foundations, even if built by the Kings of Arnor. Compare that to some of the castles in Europe, and what they look like after only a few hundred years of decay... There are exceptions - Meduseld would probably have needed some fairly frequent repairs. But then, the Riders of Rohan don't seem to be much for stone work. I can't recall - who built Helm's Deep - it seems like that must have been a gift from Gondor... At the risk of comparing our Earth with Middle Earth - some of our comparisons could be the Coliseum (the Romans built to last too - still standing, but it hasn't been a functional building for what - 1500 years, and it's not like it's out in some provincial backwater) or the Pyramids (designed specifically to last forever !) As an entirely separate issue, economically speaking, just how much Mithral could there have been in Moria ? If the Dwarves had been mining for it back into the Second Age - you'd think that thousands of years worth of dwarves would have pretty much exhausted the ore body by now. If Balin though he could send in a few miners and restore the supply - there must have been some left. In my opinion, the supply doesn't seem to match the price Gimli estimated for Frodo's shirt - a "kingly gift" worth more than the value of the entire shire - for what, maybe 2 kgs ("light as a feather..."). Sure, the supply has been cut off since the Balrog woke up, but given its value, you'd think the Dwarves would have extracted it all by then anyway. Given the time they'd had mining it, You would think every Dwarf would have a Mithril coat. If they were fleeing Moria, I would think that would be the first stuff they'd grab (light, precious and extremely useful, as opposed to gold or silver which is available elsewhere and makes rather poor armor...). I wonder what a Mithril axe blade would be like ? I think Gurthang and some of the other Elvish swords were forged from meteoric iron - any record if Mithril was used in dwarf forged weapons ? Just wondering... Opinions expressed here are my own and may not represent those of my employer. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... From: "Jim Roberts-Miller" References: Organization: Right-Wing Gun Nuts from Texas Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:20:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.70.201.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1043176813 65.70.201.141 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:20:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:20:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109814 rjmartens@mmm.com (Rob) wrote in news:b0k0tl$2am$1@tuvok3.mmm.com: > Also, if you can build an Isengard a few hundred > miles from your main cities, why not employ the same techniques to > the walls of Minis Tirith, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath ? The walls of Minas Tirith *were* built using the same (or very similar techniques): "...and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc..." Presumably the walls of Minis Ithil as well. Did Osgoliath have walls? It was not intended to be a fortress city, IIRC. If it didn't it should have had some added at some point. Jim Roberts-Miller -- Texas A&M '89, '91 "Is there in Truth no Beauty?" "Of course, you do not have to go to the moon to find cold, dark, and inhospitable...conditions. Much of Canada will do." -- the Economist http://www.mindspring.com/~jammerjim/jimpg01.html ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: 22 Jan 2003 01:21:26 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 76 Message-ID: <6uiswi8261.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1043194887 381 10.0.3.2 (22 Jan 2003 00:21:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 2003 00:21:27 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109816 rjmartens@mmm.com (Rob) writes: > certainly looks like the Engineers of Gondor, at the height of their powers, > were pretty talented. Consider: Tolkien also says so. > couldn't even mar the outside of it. On the other hand, Treebeard and > friends laid waste to the outer walls pretty easily (and dramatically), > simply by reaching into the stone and tearing it apart. That was an fairly late addition. By Saruman himself, IIRC. > building techniques were lost. Why build an invincible tower, and > comparatively substandard outer defenses. Originally intended to be without. > previously, it certainly makes sense for the Elves to do this - who wants to > have to put a new roof on Rivendell every 10 years if you plan to live there > as an immortal ? Of course Rivendell was also an fairly late thing, built as refuge after losing Eregion. But surely improved in the 4000 years since them. > recall if these are still inhabited or not (probably not) but could they not > date to even the First Age ? Unlikely, as then the Eldar were still in Beleriand. > As an entirely separate issue, economically speaking, just how much Mithral Mithril. > would have pretty much exhausted the ore body by now. Looks like they did. The entire "delving too deep" episode that released the balrog looks like them searching for more after/near running out. > If Balin though he > could send in a few miners and restore the supply - there must have been > some left. But I suspect not much more left. > the supply has been cut off since the Balrog woke up, but given its value, > you'd think the Dwarves would have extracted it all by then anyway. They most likely did. > the time they'd had mining it, You would think every Dwarf would have a > Mithril coat. If they were fleeing Moria, I would think that would be the > first stuff they'd grab (light, precious and extremely useful, as opposed to > gold or silver which is available elsewhere and makes rather poor armor...). Dragon fire... (The Hobbit). Various other remarks about some of the 7 dwarf rings being "lost" suggest other large catastrophies. And the rings were worth more than mithril. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### Message-ID: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:23:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.37.225 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1043227391 172.21.37.225 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:23:11 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:23:11 EET Organization: Nokia Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109865 Rob wrote: > As an entirely separate issue, economically speaking, just how much Mithral > could there have been in Moria ? If the Dwarves had been mining for it back > into the Second Age - you'd think that thousands of years worth of dwarves > would have pretty much exhausted the ore body by now. I think the very high price Mithril commanded can stem from a few points: 1) Somewhere it's hinted that Khazad-dum is the only place it's found (monopoly source) 2) Perhaps mining it was very labour-intensive, many dwarves going at it with very little output per year. So perhaps there wasn't all that much of it in Moria and mining it was extremely slow and expensive. Considering the buildings Numenoreans and Elves built - many buildings in this very Earth of ours date back a long time - the Hagia Sophia over 1000 years, Saint Peter's basilica in the Vatican 400 years (not that ancient, but the most spectacular building I've ever been in. Perhaps there were halls like that in Numenor in it's height.) Of course, buildings we build today out of steel-reinforced concrete will last practically for ever. As the centuries go by, this material is such that the buildings only get stronger and stronger. -JJ ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:51:03 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-21-220.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1043239863 5907 213.122.21.220 (22 Jan 2003 12:51:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:51:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109853 "Jussi Jaatinen" <1@1.au> wrote in message news:3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au... > > Rob wrote: > > > As an entirely separate issue, economically speaking, just how much Mithral > > could there have been in Moria ? If the Dwarves had been mining for it back > > into the Second Age - you'd think that thousands of years worth of dwarves > > would have pretty much exhausted the ore body by now. > > I think the very high price Mithril commanded can stem from a few > points: > > 1) Somewhere it's hinted that Khazad-dum is the only place it's found > (monopoly source) > 2) Perhaps mining it was very labour-intensive, many dwarves going at it > with very little output per year. > > So perhaps there wasn't all that much of it in Moria and mining it was > extremely slow and expensive. > > Considering the buildings Numenoreans and Elves built - many buildings > in this very Earth of ours date back a long time - the Hagia Sophia over > 1000 years, Saint Peter's basilica in the Vatican 400 years (not that > ancient, but the most spectacular building I've ever been in. Perhaps > there were halls like that in Numenor in it's height.) 1000 years? pah! What about the Coloseum dedicated by the Flavian dynasty in Rome around 80 AD, thats still in pretty good shape, in fact the only reason large parts of it are missing is that the church removed large chunks to build cathederals etc, as was stated earlier, the Romans built to last. Where I am in Scotland we have on the southern border (ok, just over the present border in England!) Hadrian's wall, which is the largest and most impressive remains of border fortifications anywhere in the empire! > Of course, buildings we build today out of steel-reinforced concrete > will last practically for ever. As the centuries go by, this material is > such that the buildings only get stronger and stronger. > > -JJ Well, one of the reasons Roman buildings last so well is obvioulsy the quality of construction and they also had concrete, invented during the 1st century BC, There's some excellent examples of this at Maidens castle in Dorset, but no you may have beaten tem there, as they dont appear to have steel reinforced concrete! Douglas (admitted Roman-o-phile!) ###### From: Alison Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Reply-To: alisonh@ntlworld.com Message-ID: <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:14:55 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.72.23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net 1043241274 62.255.72.23 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:14:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:14:34 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109871 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:51:03 +0000 (UTC), "Douglas Eckhart" wrote: >Well, one of the reasons Roman buildings last so well is obvioulsy the >quality of construction and they also had concrete, invented during the 1st >century BC, There's some excellent examples of this at Maidens castle in >Dorset, but no you may have beaten tem there, as they dont appear to have >steel reinforced concrete! One of the main, arterial roads out of London has just reopened after about 6 months' closure due to subsidence. The original, Roman foundations of the road had given way after a prolonged period of rainfall. This is a 2000-year old road that is used daily by huge numbers of cars, coaches and heavy lorries. Sure, the 20th century slapped some hardcore and tarmac on top of it, but it's essentially the old Roman road underneath. The Romans were very good engineers. Alison ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:12:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bacchus.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1043244762 25642 129.241.210.178 (22 Jan 2003 14:12:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:12:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109847 In article <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com>, Alison wrote: [snip] >The Romans were very good engineers. From what I've read, though, their theory was kind of weak, so they didn't have much of a clue about how strong stuff needed to be built. As a consequence they often either underbuilt (in which case things fell down and didn't last long at all) or over- built, sometimes to a quite extreme degree (those structures that have remained more or less intact into the modern era would largely be examples of this). -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:29:09 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 116 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-hub.kaist.ac.kr!nntp.kreonet.re.kr!news-xfer.nuri.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109861 "Rob" wrote in message news:b0k0tl$2am$1@tuvok3.mmm.com... > As a new lurker to this group, I've been following some of the > interesting discussions regarding the relative merits (structural) of the > film depiction of the Argonath. From an engineering perspective, it > certainly looks like the Engineers of Gondor, at the height of their powers, > were pretty talented. Consider: > > Arm positioning aside, the Argonath as a set of substantial statues, has > been standing for thousands of years (I don't have any of the books handy, > so be patient with my memory...). Erosion by the Anduin doesn't seem to have > had much impact during that time. > perhaps they rebuilt the river bed leading up to the falls and coated the stone work with the same weather resisting "epoxy" coating that keeps the Argonath in such good shape. > Orthanc, although upkept and lived in, is a construction that is not only > thousands of years old as well, but was so well constructed that the Ents > couldn't even mar the outside of it? i thought the Numenorians/Gondorians (not sure when it was built) carved it out of existing rock and it was the properties of the rock that gave it it's strength not it's construction. > > Minas Tirith - a city, that while occupied the whole time, was built to > last. Built at the edge of a mountain range (carved out of ?), it has stood > intact and habitable for an age and then some. I always imagined Minas > Tirith as having some pretty well worn steps in the main access areas... > walkways can always be replaced. even Gimli said he could see old and new stonework. > It seems to me that the peoples of Middle Earth, at least through the Second > Age, designed and built things for the long haul. they had some kind of lost technology. they also had the students(Elves) of Aule as teachers. > > The towers to the west of the shire, on the way to the havens - I don't > recall if these are still inhabited or not (probably not) but could they not > date to even the First Age ? i think your thinking of the Downs. those were believed to be tombs of men from the days before Men entered Beleriand. > I imagined the > First Age forts to be pretty imposing structures me too! > > Even Weathertop, while ruined, still seems to have some walls and > foundations, even if built by the Kings of Arnor. built with the same lost Numenor technology as above. > > There are exceptions - Meduseld would probably have needed some fairly > frequent repairs. But then, the Riders of Rohan don't seem to be much for > stone work. I can't recall - who built Helm's Deep - it seems like that must > have been a gift from Gondor... yes, it was there before Rohan. > > At the risk of comparing our Earth with Middle Earth - some of our > comparisons could be the Coliseum (the Romans built to last too - still > standing, but it hasn't been a functional building for what - 1500 years, > and it's not like it's out in some provincial backwater) or the Pyramids > (designed specifically to last forever !) Numenor and Gondor could have been masters of cement concrete or even plastics for all we know. ;-) > > Sure, > the supply has been cut off since the Balrog woke up, but given its value, > you'd think the Dwarves would have extracted it all by then anyway. i always assumed that Mithril was found in very small doses. 500 years here, mine for a few months, 700 years later they find some more, and so on and so on. > If they were fleeing Moria, I would think that would be the > first stuff they'd grab they might have. but i remember reading that Sauron had been collecting all he could find. he might have had most of the worlds supply that was mined by the dwarves. although i can't remember the source for that belief right now. can anyone help me here? that would explain the rariety and inflated value. > I wonder what a Mithril axe blade would be like ? i thought Mithril was soft like silver but unbreakable.(that sounds pretty strange) T.A. ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:13:42 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp158-189.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1043266418 77835 62.118.158.189 (22 Jan 2003 20:13:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:13:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!151.189.0.77.MISMATCH!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.hostname.nl!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109975 Alison wrote: > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:51:03 +0000 (UTC), "Douglas Eckhart" > wrote: > > > >Well, one of the reasons Roman buildings last so well is obvioulsy the > >quality of construction and they also had concrete, invented during the 1st > >century BC, There's some excellent examples of this at Maidens castle in > >Dorset, but no you may have beaten tem there, as they dont appear to have > >steel reinforced concrete! > > One of the main, arterial roads out of London has just reopened after > about 6 months' closure due to subsidence. The original, Roman > foundations of the road had given way after a prolonged period of > rainfall. This is a 2000-year old road that is used daily by huge > numbers of cars, coaches and heavy lorries. Sure, the 20th century > slapped some hardcore and tarmac on top of it, but it's essentially > the old Roman road underneath. > > The Romans were very good engineers. Ah. Roads are a weaker point for Romans than walls and aqueducts. The Brits seldom touch upon the issue of Napoleon who was the next driving force (after Romans) to renovate and restore the road network in Europe. BTW, have you seen how a stone road is maintained? Nasty manual work it is, no doubt about that. Archie ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:23:26 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com> Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110004 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:23:11 GMT, Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> wrote: > >Of course, buildings we build today out of steel-reinforced concrete >will last practically for ever. Well, actually they won't. Mebbe fifty years without maintenance. > As the centuries go by, this material is >such that the buildings only get stronger and stronger. > We do not build things 'stronger and stronger'. We build them as cheaply as possible out of developed materials which were not known to the ancients. Our skill in architecture and strength of materials has advanced so far beyond the ancients that we no longer have to 'overbuild' to insure an economically reasonable lifetime for a building. In order to meet 'cost targets' we make buildings which will last at least as long as the 'target lifetime', but no longer. When we screw up, the building starts collapsing while still in service which, as you may notice, occurs from time to time. (Corrupt builders and shoddy workmanship have been with us since day one, but no one will spend the money to design and build a building which attempts to overcome them if they can avoid it.) A modern building which lasts a long time is an architectural and civil engineering mistake. the softrat "Wannabe orcodentist" ==>Jar-jaromir Lives!<== mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now. -- Steven Wright ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:24:44 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <8g6u2v461n0dr945mjfhf3ptfqam7jo29e@4ax.com> Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110008 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:14:55 +0000, Alison wrote: > >The Romans were very good engineers. > Not by modern standards: they overbuilt like crazy! the softrat "Wannabe orcodentist" ==>Jar-jaromir Lives!<== mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now. -- Steven Wright ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:42:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bacchus.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: tyfon.itea.ntnu.no 1043275338 12412 129.241.210.178 (22 Jan 2003 22:42:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:42:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109923 In article <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com>, the softrat wrote: >On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:23:11 GMT, Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> wrote: >> >> As the centuries go by, this material is >>such that the buildings only get stronger and stronger. >> >We do not build things 'stronger and stronger'. We build them as >cheaply as possible out of developed materials which were not known to >the ancients. Our skill in architecture and strength of materials has >advanced so far beyond the ancients that we no longer have to >'overbuild' to insure an economically reasonable lifetime for a >building. There are some annoying exceptions, though. Like the WW2 U-boat bunkers the Germans built here during the occupation, taking up the best spot in the harbour. Built really really strong to withstand bombing; they will never be demolished because it's just not possible to do so in an economically viable way (they *could* blow them up given enough explosives, but it would destroy the rest of the harbour and downtown area and probably set off the quick clay deposits that most of the rest of the town is built on). So they're just sitting there being mostly useless. -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:56:46 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp135-30.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1043283393 91284 62.118.135.30 (23 Jan 2003 00:56:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:56:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109979 the softrat wrote: > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:23:11 GMT, Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> wrote: > > > >Of course, buildings we build today out of steel-reinforced concrete > >will last practically for ever. > > Well, actually they won't. Mebbe fifty years without maintenance. Depends on the area. Seismodangerous zones will have lower expectancy (even without major earthquakes). Developing countries will, again, have short-living concrete due to fraud&corruption, as you noted (more sand than cement in the concrete). [...] > A modern building which lasts a long time is an architectural and > civil engineering mistake. A mistake of city planning, too (encumbers future planners with unnecessary burden). Archie ###### From: "Chocoholic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:02:35 -0500 Organization: NOT! Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109959 "Rob" wrote in message news:b0k0tl$2am$1@tuvok3.mmm.com... > As a new lurker to this group, I've been following some of the > interesting discussions regarding the relative merits (structural) of the > film depiction of the Argonath. From an engineering perspective, it > certainly looks like the Engineers of Gondor, at the height of their powers, > were pretty talented. Consider: > > Arm positioning aside, the Argonath as a set of substantial statues, has > been standing for thousands of years (I don't have any of the books handy, > so be patient with my memory...). Erosion by the Anduin doesn't seem to have > had much impact during that time. > Stone weathers much more slowly then we generally imagine it does. It's modern _pollution_ that has accelerated the decay of stone work, ancient and modern, worldwide. There are hoards of ancient monuments surviving in Egypt 3,000+ years after they were created. If the climate around the Argonath was fairly 'arid' (let's say Great Plains arid rather than Egypt arid) they could well have survived from the founding of Gondor, depending on the type of stone they were carved from. > Orthanc, although upkept and lived in, is a construction that is not only > thousands of years old as well, but was so well constructed that the Ents > couldn't even mar the outside of it. On the other hand, Treebeard and > friends laid waste to the outer walls pretty easily (and dramatically), > simply by reaching into the stone and tearing it apart. Assuming the outer > walls were a later construction that would sugget that some knowledge and > building techniques were lost. Why build an invincible tower, and > comparatively substandard outer defenses. The circle of Isengard, intact, > seems big enough to withstand a siege indefinitely if the outer defenses > hold. What is the value of an invincible tower at the center if you get > holed up in it and run out of provisions in a few weeks ? Also, if you can > build an Isengard a few hundred miles from your main cities, why not employ > the same techniques to the walls of Minis Tirith, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath > ? > Yes, the outer circle seems to be Saruman's addition. Orthanc itself seems to be the volcanic core of a mountain that's left when the softer rock erodes away, I forget the technical geological term for it. The description of the surface sounds like basalt, which is a volcanic rock and one of the hardest kinds of rock. It's the 'foundation' of the continental plates. > Minas Tirith - a city, that while occupied the whole time, was built to > last. Built at the edge of a mountain range (carved out of ?), it has stood > intact and habitable for an age and then some. I always imagined Minas > Tirith as having some pretty well worn steps in the main access areas... > The walls at least are the same stone as Orthanc. The rest of it could be maintained without too much trouble. Go cut some new flagstones in a quarry, remove the old ones & replace them. > Even Weathertop, while ruined, still seems to have some walls and > foundations, even if built by the Kings of Arnor. Compare that to some of > the castles in Europe, and what they look like after only a few hundred > years of decay... > Well, there is a 'circle of stone' still standing. I presume it's barely tall enough for someone could stand behind because they were worried about being spotted from the road. > There are exceptions - Meduseld would probably have needed some fairly > frequent repairs. But then, the Riders of Rohan don't seem to be much for > stone work. I can't recall - who built Helm's Deep - it seems like that must > have been a gift from Gondor... > Yes, Helms Deep was a Gondorian fortress. The appendices explain. > At the risk of comparing our Earth with Middle Earth - some of our > comparisons could be the Coliseum (the Romans built to last too - still > standing, but it hasn't been a functional building for what - 1500 years, > and it's not like it's out in some provincial backwater) or the Pyramids > (designed specifically to last forever !) > The coliseum would have survived much better if it had not been looted. Same for the pyramids in Egypt, and thousands of castles in Europe. Not all castles were built on the Gothic-sterotype remote crags hanging over some sea-cliff. It's just the ones in the remote locations that were harder to loot and so survived to the present day. If you remove the human factor from the 'decay' of old structures I think you'd find the survival of structures in Middle-earth less amazing. The societies that built them tended to last longer than 'Real World' cultures, so they survived better, and even when they failed (like Khazad-dum) there wasn't a new civilization building on the ruins and re-using them. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:29:30 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110014 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:42:18 +0000 (UTC), leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) wrote: >In article <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com>, >the softrat wrote: >>On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:23:11 GMT, Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> wrote: >>> >>> As the centuries go by, this material is >>>such that the buildings only get stronger and stronger. >>> >>We do not build things 'stronger and stronger'. We build them as >>cheaply as possible out of developed materials which were not known to >>the ancients. Our skill in architecture and strength of materials has >>advanced so far beyond the ancients that we no longer have to >>'overbuild' to insure an economically reasonable lifetime for a >>building. > >There are some annoying exceptions, though. Like the WW2 U-boat >bunkers the Germans built here during the occupation, taking up >the best spot in the harbour. Built really really strong to withstand >bombing; they will never be demolished because it's just not possible >to do so in an economically viable way (they *could* blow them up >given enough explosives, but it would destroy the rest of the harbour >and downtown area and probably set off the quick clay deposits that >most of the rest of the town is built on). So they're just sitting >there being mostly useless. Just demonstrating that we could build bullding forever if we chose to. (Where are those 'reinforced concrete termites'?) the softrat "Wannabe orcodentist" ==>Jar-jaromir Lives!<== mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread. -- Steven Wright ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:30:47 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110040 On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:56:46 +0300, wrote: >the softrat wrote: >> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:23:11 GMT, Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> wrote: >> > >> >Of course, buildings we build today out of steel-reinforced concrete >> >will last practically for ever. >> >> Well, actually they won't. Mebbe fifty years without maintenance. >Depends on the area. Seismodangerous zones will have lower expectancy >(even without major earthquakes). Developing countries will, again, have >short-living concrete due to fraud&corruption, as you noted (more sand >than cement in the concrete). > >[...] >> A modern building which lasts a long time is an architectural and >> civil engineering mistake. > >A mistake of city planning, too (encumbers future planners with >unnecessary burden). > Just goes to show you how incompetent those ancient Romans and Greeks were, not to mention the Chinese and Egyptians .... the softrat "Wannabe orcodentist" ==>Jar-jaromir Lives!<== mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread. -- Steven Wright ###### From: Dale Hicks Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:50:17 -0600 Organization: slight Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-156-194-221.pns.bellsouth.net (66.156.194.221) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043300878 28527975 66.156.194.221 (16 [166316]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!adsl-156-194-221.pns.bellsouth.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109941 In article , softrat@pobox.com says... > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:56:46 +0300, > wrote: > > >A mistake of city planning, too (encumbers future planners with > >unnecessary burden). > > > Just goes to show you how incompetent those ancient Romans and Greeks > were, not to mention the Chinese and Egyptians .... Yes, what _have_ the Egyptians done for us? -- Cranial Crusader dgh 1138 at bell south point net ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:30:46 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-109-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1043328646 17060 213.122.109.17 (23 Jan 2003 13:30:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:30:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109971 wrote in message > > The Romans were very good engineers. > > Ah. Roads are a weaker point for Romans than walls and aqueducts. The > Brits seldom touch upon the issue of Napoleon who was the next driving > force (after Romans) to renovate and restore the road network in Europe. > Archie How is it a weaker point when the roads have survived intact for about 2000 years? Many of the roads are mentioned and used in later periods, Robert the Bruce was described as taking the roman road to meet up with his forces at one point for example, and most of the modern motorway system in Britain is built over the roman road network A1 = Ermine Street for example. The only problem with Roman roads is that if they are not used for extensive periods of time (like decades or centures) they get overgrown, but then any road would be the same! As any historian would tell you, the roman road network was the arteries of the empire and kept the empire together. Douglas ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:35:09 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp134-212.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1043328915 37901 62.118.134.212 (23 Jan 2003 13:35:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:35:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!newsfeed.hostname.nl!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109997 the softrat wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:56:46 +0300, > wrote: > > >the softrat wrote: > >> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:23:11 GMT, Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> wrote: > >> > > >> >Of course, buildings we build today out of steel-reinforced concrete > >> >will last practically for ever. > >> > >> Well, actually they won't. Mebbe fifty years without maintenance. > >Depends on the area. Seismodangerous zones will have lower expectancy > >(even without major earthquakes). Developing countries will, again, have > >short-living concrete due to fraud&corruption, as you noted (more sand > >than cement in the concrete). > > > >[...] > >> A modern building which lasts a long time is an architectural and > >> civil engineering mistake. > > > >A mistake of city planning, too (encumbers future planners with > >unnecessary burden). > > > Just goes to show you how incompetent those ancient Romans and Greeks > were, not to mention the Chinese and Egyptians .... Different rates of population and city growth. We stumble across constraints of space, time and fashion: what is an architectural fad today will certainly be regarded as a non-option in 50 years. Archie ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:40:48 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> <8g6u2v461n0dr945mjfhf3ptfqam7jo29e@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-109-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: venus.btinternet.com 1043329248 21137 213.122.109.17 (23 Jan 2003 13:40:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:40:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109956 "the softrat" wrote in message news:8g6u2v461n0dr945mjfhf3ptfqam7jo29e@4ax.com... > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:14:55 +0000, Alison > wrote: > > > > >The Romans were very good engineers. > > > Not by modern standards: they overbuilt like crazy! > > > the softrat "Wannabe orcodentist" But we're not talking modern standards, by ancient standards they were excellent, although they got much of their technical knoweldge from the Greeks but never mind! I like to think of the Roman ab bit like the Japanese, they don't really invent anything, they take othr peoples ideas and improve them! For example, contrary to common knoweldge, the romans didnt invent the arch, they greeks did but they didnt make much use of it. Then the roman got hold of it and the idea really took off, the coloseum, aqua-duct etc Oh, another thing, Hiero of Alexandria in the 1stC AD created an elementary steam turbine, which the Romans later used to create a novelty garden ornament, it turned a wheel around... but they never developed the idea further........AAAARRRRGGHH! Everything was actually in place for an industrial revolution (at least it was possible) but it never happend. Many theories have been formed as to why. One of the most obvious reasons that my roman lecturer mentioned was that because slavery was so common and formed the whole backbon of the empire, there was no real incentive for labour saving devices to increase production or whatever, as all they did if they wanted to increase output was to through a few hundred more slaves down the mine. Basically there just wasnt the interest (or the need) to invent machines to make the job easier! Douglas ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... From: J Swanson References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> Organization: Your Company Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:00:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.208.134.126 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsb.telia.net 1043330428 217.208.134.126 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:00:28 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:00:28 CET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-stob.telia.net!telia.net!194.22.194.4.MISMATCH!masternews.telia.net.!newsb.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:109909 > Many of the roads are mentioned and used in later periods, Robert the > Bruce was described as taking the roman road to meet up with his > forces at one point for example, and most of the modern motorway > system in Britain is built over the roman road network A1 = Ermine > Street for example. One could also mention the Via Appia in Rome. When I visited Rome some years ago it was still open for cars and buses - with the original stone surface intact. There probably was a lower speed limit than on modern roads. It was also one-way, which didn't bother the hundreds of car drivers that we met on our way to Tivoli. John ###### From: "Matthew Bladen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:49:29 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-132-143-41.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: sparta.btinternet.com 1043365769 3659 81.132.143.41 (23 Jan 2003 23:49:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:49:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110098 "Yuk Tang" wrote in message news:b0puuc$s7dog$1@ID-134236.news.dfncis.de... > > "J Swanson" wrote in message > news:Xns930C9888B206B361gTggq846@195.67.237.51... > > One could also mention the Via Appia in Rome. When I visited Rome some > > years ago it was still open for cars and buses - with the original stone > > surface intact. There probably was a lower speed limit than on modern > > roads. It was also one-way, which didn't bother the hundreds of car > drivers > > that we met on our way to Tivoli. > > Ruddy heck! You mean that the original laid down by Appius is still in use > after 2300 years? Too much of that makes you go blind... -- Matthew ###### From: "pawn" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:50:30 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.141.149.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cogeco.ca X-Trace: read2.cgocable.net 1043380240 24.141.149.78 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:50:40 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:50:40 EST Organization: Cogeco Cable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!feed.cgocable.net!read2.cgocable.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110099 "the softrat" wrote in message news:3r5u2v85kinqt555pl6121mcihtm59v5b5@4ax.com... > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:23:11 GMT, Jussi Jaatinen <1@1.au> wrote: > > > We do not build things 'stronger and stronger'. We build them as > cheaply as possible out of developed materials which were not known to > the ancients. Our skill in architecture and strength of materials has > advanced so far beyond the ancients that we no longer have to > 'overbuild' to insure an economically reasonable lifetime for a > building. In order to meet 'cost targets' we make buildings which will > last at least as long as the 'target lifetime', but no longer. When we > screw up, the building starts collapsing while still in service which, > as you may notice, occurs from time to time. (Corrupt builders and > shoddy workmanship have been with us since day one, but no one will > spend the money to design and build a building which attempts to > overcome them if they can avoid it.) (Score: 4, Insightful) You obviously have a background in the business. > > A modern building which lasts a long time is an architectural and > civil engineering mistake. > > > > the softrat "Wannabe orcodentist" > ==>Jar-jaromir Lives!<== > mailto:softrat@pobox.com > -- > Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now. -- > Steven Wright ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... From: J Swanson References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> Organization: Your Company Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 8 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 07:57:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.208.134.126 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsb.telia.net 1043395061 217.208.134.126 (Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:57:41 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:57:41 CET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news1.spb.su!news-stob.telia.net!telia.net!194.22.194.4.MISMATCH!masternews.telia.net.!newsb.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110072 "Yuk Tang" wrote in news:b0puuc$s7dog$1@ID-134236.news.dfncis.de: > Ruddy heck! You mean that the original laid down by Appius is still > in use after 2300 years? Yes indeed. / John ###### From: ciaranirvine@hotmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ciar=E1n_Irvine?=) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: 24 Jan 2003 06:05:53 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.120.237.130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1043417153 29218 127.0.0.1 (24 Jan 2003 14:05:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2003 14:05:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110145 > 1000 years? pah! What about the Coloseum dedicated by the Flavian dynasty in > Rome around 80 AD, thats still in pretty good shape, in fact the only reason > large parts of it are missing is that the church removed large chunks to > build cathederals etc, as was stated earlier, the Romans built to last. > Where I am in Scotland we have on the southern border (ok, just over the > present border in England!) Hadrian's wall, which is the largest and most > impressive remains of border fortifications anywhere in the empire! > I'll second that snort of celtic contempt for these uppity Younger Races Douglas ;-)) Course, we here in Ireland trump the lot of 'em with Newgrange, still standing and still working after 5,000 years. That would be 1,500 years older than the oldest Giza pyramid, and 1,000 years older than the oldest parts of Stonehenge.... ###### From: atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: 25 Jan 2003 08:38:15 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 96 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.202.70.9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1043512696 27948 127.0.0.1 (25 Jan 2003 16:38:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2003 16:38:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110556 rjmartens@mmm.com (Rob) wrote in message news:... > As a new lurker to this group, I've been following some of the > interesting discussions regarding the relative merits (structural) of the > film depiction of the Argonath. From an engineering perspective, it > certainly looks like the Engineers of Gondor, at the height of their powers, > were pretty talented. Consider: > > Arm positioning aside, the Argonath as a set of substantial statues, has > been standing for thousands of years (I don't have any of the books handy, > so be patient with my memory...). Erosion by the Anduin doesn't seem to have > had much impact during that time. I resent their brand-new look in the flick and in many artists' rendering as much as their preposterous relationship to gravity. Tolkien intended them to look ancient and weather-worn, something like the various stone monuments on the Nile or the Euphrates (though he never saw either), or the ancient British megaliths (which he did see). The British megaliths are, of course, a great deal older than the Argonath were, so the features may be assumed to have worn away. (I assume they never had any, but that's because I don't believe in Atlantis, aka Numenor.) > Orthanc, although upkept and lived in, is a construction that is not only > thousands of years old as well, but was so well constructed that the Ents > couldn't even mar the outside of it. On the other hand, Treebeard and > friends laid waste to the outer walls pretty easily (and dramatically), > simply by reaching into the stone and tearing it apart. Assuming the outer > walls were a later construction that would sugget that some knowledge and > building techniques were lost. JRRT implies the outer walls of Isengard (which do not exist in the movie, of course) are a natural formation, perhaps volcanic in origin, into which the Numenoreans inserted a tower in order to guard the regular trade route between Gondor and Arnor. >Also, if you can > build an Isengard a few hundred miles from your main cities, why not employ > the same techniques to the walls of Minis Tirith, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath Did Osgiliath have walls? In any case, the magical techniques used to create the one slim tower of Orthanc are, perhaps, not really applicable to a fortification as large as a city. > Minas Tirith - a city, that while occupied the whole time, was built to > last. Built at the edge of a mountain range (carved out of ?), it has stood > intact and habitable for an age and then some. I always imagined Minas > Tirith as having some pretty well worn steps in the main access areas... LOL He seems to have been thinking of the walls of Constantinople, which are still pretty magnificent though they were built 1500 years ago. > The towers to the west of the shire, on the way to the havens - I don't > recall if these are still inhabited or not (probably not) but could they not > date to even the First Age ? We never see them, and they appear to exist only in hobbit fairy tales. > Even Weathertop, while ruined, still seems to have some walls and > foundations, even if built by the Kings of Arnor. Compare that to some of > the castles in Europe, and what they look like after only a few hundred > years of decay... Weathertop is based, I believe, like the Barrow Downs, on Tolkien's visits to megalithic monuments and forts in Britain (which is honeycombed with them). Weathertop is pretty ruinous compared to, say, the North Gate of Trier (the largest Roman building north of the Alps). > At the risk of comparing our Earth with Middle Earth - some of our > comparisons could be the Coliseum (the Romans built to last too - still > standing, but it hasn't been a functional building for what - 1500 years, Oh, it's been very functional, just not as an amphitheater. It was the red light district of Rome for centuries, as recently as World War II. It was also the principal building quarry for Rome for 1500 years. Other Roman monuments, tombs, theaters, baths, etc., have been turned into castles or churches and lived in for centuries. > or the Pyramids > (designed specifically to last forever !) Until the building of the Aswan High Dam, the pyramids had the benefit of the ideal climate for preserving stonework. That is no longer true, with disastrous results. It certainly would not have been true anywhere in Middle Earth north or west of Mordor. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Musings - Numenorean Engineering, Mithral economics etc... Date: 25 Jan 2003 08:56:41 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3E2E64AD.3582C77F@1.au> <546t2vk7vn081vpsv6u54b6o3ibp7f8lu2@4ax.com> <8g6u2v461n0dr945mjfhf3ptfqam7jo29e@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.202.70.9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1043513801 29447 127.0.0.1 (25 Jan 2003 16:56:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2003 16:56:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:110557 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:... > But we're not talking modern standards, by ancient standards they were > excellent, although they got much of their technical knoweldge from the > Greeks but never mind! > I like to think of the Roman ab bit like the Japanese, they don't really > invent anything, they take othr peoples ideas and improve them! > > For example, contrary to common knoweldge, the romans didnt invent the arch, > they greeks did but they didnt make much use of it. Then the roman got hold > of it and the idea really took off, the coloseum, aqua-duct etc That wasn't no Greeks, honey. That was the Etruscans -- they had the arch and the dome, and probably cement, and the Romans took all these things and Etruria to boot. (Also the Etruscan alphabet, but not, of course, the language.) Roman brickwork -- not our big blocky bricks that make walls that fall over entire, but tiles held together by cement -- lasts damn near forever. One reason it lasts so well, as opposed to stonework, is that it is not easily extractable and recyclable. The colosseum was not turned into cathedrals (there's only one cathedral in Rome, St. John Lateran) but into fortifications and castles. Benedict XIV finally put a stop to that by declaring it a holy monument to those martyred within it. He was probably aware that Christians were not, as a matter of fact, executed there, but thought it the likeliest way to stop vandalism of the building. Benedict was a scholar and a gentleman with a sense of humor; everyone liked him, even Protestants and Jews. Tsar Parmathule