Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Probability of Elven gender From: "Frank N. Furter" Organization: Transexual Transelvania Corp Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:19:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.96.112.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net 1041524384 81.96.112.104 (Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:19:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:19:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:106240 I find it strange that so many of the Elven heroes than we know of (e.g. the Noldor princes) are male and the vast majority of their offspring are male. Just take a look at the family trees of the Noldor in the Silmarillion, notice how many of them are female? Finwe had 3 sons and 0 daughters. Feanor had 7 sons and 0 daughters. Fingolfin had 2 sons and 1 daughter. Finarfin had 4 sons and 1 daughter. So is this mere coincidence or is there something else than we (or I!) don't know about? Perhaps the probablitity of the gender of an Elf is not equal like it is with Humans. Are they more likely to be male than female? Or can they choose what gender their children are doing to be? Frank N. Furter ###### Reply-To: "teepee" From: "teepee" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Probability of Elven gender Lines: 19 Organization: home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Inktomi-Trace: public3-walt3-4-cust37.walt.broadband.ntl.com 1041526426 4188 81.99.225.37 (2 Jan 2003 16:53:46 GMT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:47:49 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.1.224.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net 1041526426 80.1.224.4 (Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:53:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:53:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:106242 "Frank N. Furter" wrote in message news:Xns92F7A61DE99C2franknfuterntlworldc@194.168.222.15... > I find it strange that so many of the Elven heroes than we know of (e.g. > the Noldor princes) are male and the vast majority of their offspring are > male. Just take a look at the family trees of the Noldor in the > Silmarillion, notice how many of them are female? Well as they're immortal and child bearing, the whole of middle earth would be over-run with little elflings if there were lots of females. No wonder they don't like their very few ladies marrying humans. But how come no elf chap ever did the same. They must be, how shall we put it, a little frustrated after a few thousand years. tp ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Probability of Elven gender Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 17:26:01 +0000 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3E147629.6661E5FA@hotmail.com> References: Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.92.192 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 1041528293 18744 217.134.92.192 (2 Jan 2003 17:24:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2003 17:24:53 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:106254 "Frank N. Furter" wrote: > > I find it strange that so many of the Elven heroes than we know of (e.g. > the Noldor princes) are male and the vast majority of their offspring are > male. Just take a look at the family trees of the Noldor in the > Silmarillion, notice how many of them are female? > > Finwe had 3 sons and 0 daughters. Feanor had 7 sons and 0 daughters. > Fingolfin had 2 sons and 1 daughter. Finarfin had 4 sons and 1 daughter. So > is this mere coincidence or is there something else than we (or I!) don't > know about? > > Perhaps the probablitity of the gender of an Elf is not equal like it is > with Humans. Are they more likely to be male than female? Or can they > choose what gender their children are doing to be? > The family trees that we are shown tend to only mention the family members that are involved in the histories. For example, Finwë actually had _six_ children (we find out in HoME X; One son by Míriel, and then three daughters and two sons by Indis (the daughters were called Findis, Finvain and Faniel). I can't locate my copy of HoME XII, but that has more information about other members of the family trees (like Fingon and Turgon's younger brother, Argon, who was slain in the first skirmish in Middle-Earth). -- Andy Cooke ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Probability of Elven gender Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:43:29 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q084.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1041529807 58198 212.205.254.84 (2 Jan 2003 17:50:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:50:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:106333 "Frank N. Furter" wrote in message news:Xns92F7A61DE99C2franknfuterntlworldc@194.168.222.15... > I find it strange that so many of the Elven heroes than we know of (e.g. > the Noldor princes) are male and the vast majority of their offspring are > male. Just take a look at the family trees of the Noldor in the > Silmarillion, notice how many of them are female? > > Finwe had 3 sons and 0 daughters. Feanor had 7 sons and 0 daughters. > Fingolfin had 2 sons and 1 daughter. Finarfin had 4 sons and 1 daughter. So > is this mere coincidence or is there something else than we (or I!) don't > know about? Call it coincidence - and that Tolkien mainly wrote about guys... His elven women usually take the role of the only *daughters* of the kings of hidden realms (Luthien, Idril, Finduilas, Arwen), not queens of their own right. Also those family trees are not "final" in a way - as Andy said, Tolkien long tinkered with the idea of relatives that did not have much to do with the war in the long term and thus aren't mentioned... Like Finwe's two or three daughters. He also removed Orodreth from Finarfin's children, making him a son of Angrod instead, thus having Finarfin have 3 sons and 1 daughter, not 4 and 1. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Probability of Elven gender Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 23:36:03 +0000 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3E14CCE3.4345A880@hotmail.com> References: <3E147629.6661E5FA@hotmail.com> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.251.219 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 1041550494 21075 217.134.251.219 (2 Jan 2003 23:34:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2003 23:34:54 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:106575 Andy Cooke wrote: > > I can't locate my copy of HoME XII, but that has more information > about other members of the family trees (like Fingon and Turgon's > younger brother, Argon, who was slain in the first skirmish in > Middle-Earth). > Oh, and they had four more younger siblings: Neon, Krypton, Radon and Xenon* * - The Warrior Prince. -- Andy Cooke ###### From: "Manwe Sulimo" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3E147629.6661E5FA@hotmail.com> <3E14CCE3.4345A880@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Probability of Elven gender Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Message-ID: <%G5R9.210223$qF3.14603@sccrnsc04> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.234.248.62 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1041557307 12.234.248.62 (Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:28:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:28:27 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:28:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:106573 "Andy Cooke" wrote in message news:3E14CCE3.4345A880@hotmail.com... > Andy Cooke wrote: > > > > > I can't locate my copy of HoME XII, but that has more information > > about other members of the family trees (like Fingon and Turgon's > > younger brother, Argon, who was slain in the first skirmish in > > Middle-Earth). > > > > Oh, and they had four more younger siblings: > Neon, Krypton, Radon and Xenon* > > * - The Warrior Prince. > > -- > Andy Cooke I really do not know why, but I laughed :) ###### From: Panurge Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Probability of Elven gender Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:10:29 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.5c.d7 X-Server-Date: 3 Jan 2003 06:10:30 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!feed01.bs1!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!jblanks Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:106821 "teepee" wrote: >No wonder they don't like their very few ladies marrying humans. But how >come no elf chap ever did the same. They must be, how shall we put it, >a little frustrated after a few thousand years. /? (Makes more sense than Frodo/Sam, anyway.) But seriously, I suspect JRRT understood it to be a defect of construction that there weren't more women mentioned. He tried to fix it, at least, but I wonder if that wasn't the sort of thing that kept him from publishing _The_Silmarillion_. -- "Composers tend to think most people really care a lot about music. Well, most people don't." --Aaron Copland ###### From: "Colin Lord" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Probability of Elven gender Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:11:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.45.133.211 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1041833493 203.45.133.211 (Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:11:33 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:11:33 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:107332 "Michael Cole" wrote in message news:avb4ni$dobg5$1@ID-156864.news.dfncis.de... > Frank N. Furter wrote: > > I find it strange that so many of the Elven heroes than we know of > > (e.g. the Noldor princes) are male and the vast majority of their > > offspring are male. Just take a look at the family trees of the > > Noldor in the Silmarillion, notice how many of them are female? > > > > Finwe had 3 sons and 0 daughters. Feanor had 7 sons and 0 daughters. > > Fingolfin had 2 sons and 1 daughter. Finarfin had 4 sons and 1 > > daughter. So is this mere coincidence or is there something else than > > we (or I!) don't know about? > > And Galadhriel had one daughter and no sons. > > > Perhaps the probablitity of the gender of an Elf is not equal like it > > is with Humans. Are they more likely to be male than female? Or can > > they choose what gender their children are doing to be? > > Or possibly that only those who matter are important, and thus generally, > more males than females are listed. And also that the Noldorian Royalty are > but a small subset of the Noldorian race, thus trying to draw inferences out > of that is dangerous. Exactly. When I grew up our area was dominated by boys, 3 boys in my family, 3 boys in my neighbours, 5 boys 1 girl in his neighbours etc. Coincidence. At any rate it makes a better book given male heirs are more dominant in Tolkien's world. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Probability of Elven gender Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:04:34 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: m009-203.nv.iinet.net.au (203.217.9.203) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1041851101 13946744 203.217.9.203 (16 [173710]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!m009-203.nv.iinet.net.AU!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:107306 On Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:11:33 GMT, Colin Lord alleged... > Exactly. When I grew up our area was dominated by boys, 3 boys in my family, > 3 boys in my neighbours, 5 boys 1 girl in his neighbours etc. Coincidence. > At any rate it makes a better book given male heirs are more dominant in > Tolkien's world. It's those Y chromosomes in the water. -- Donald Shepherd "He left you a Baggin" - http://users3.ev1.net/~eekfrenzy/captionspage/badfotrcaptionsx.html