Lines: 1 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: nightwitchx@aol.com (NightWitchx) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 13 Dec 2002 04:17:14 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102673 Who was older - Celeborn or Galadriel? ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1039754410 12.236.164.237 (Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:40:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:40:10 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:40:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102713 In article <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com>, nightwitchx@aol.com says... > Who was older - Celeborn or Galadriel? > Unknown. We do know that Galadriel was considered young at the time of the rebellion. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Lines: 11 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 13 Dec 2002 04:44:56 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021212234456.11210.00000011@mb-ce.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsxfer.visi.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102670 >Who was older - Celeborn or Galadriel? They don't kiss and tell, witchy. Supposing that Celeborn was around when Elwe and Olwe marched West, then he would be older, since Galadriel was born in Valinor. Otherwise, it might be a tossup, perhaps an issue over which to argue endlessly because each would claim to be older. How long did Galadriel tarry in Valinor? Does her hair stop growing after hundreds of years or does she still have to shave her legs and armpits and make that cutey little tuft between? Mark ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include "all" headers, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our New Gallery! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:46:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102711 In article <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com>, NightWitchx wrote: > Who was older - Celeborn or Galadriel? Tolkien never said. -- AC ###### From: Jon Meltzer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:43:18 -0500 Organization: Esoteric Order of Dagon Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.0f.92 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 13 Dec 2002 12:44:53 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102768 On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:40:10 GMT, Tar-Elenion wrote: >In article <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com>, >nightwitchx@aol.com says... >> Who was older - Celeborn or Galadriel? >> >Unknown. We do know that Galadriel was considered young at the time of >the rebellion. And Tolkien changed his mind several times about Celeborn's origins. ###### Message-ID: <3DFA4970.972C31E@eci.esys.com> From: John X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:56:16 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.18.228.117 X-Complaints-To: news@ext.ray.com X-Trace: dfw-service2.ext.raytheon.com 1039813108 147.18.228.117 (Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:58:28 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:58:28 CST Organization: Raytheon Company Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!cyclone.swbell.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!dfw-service2.ext.raytheon.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102784 AC wrote: > In article <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com>, NightWitchx wrote: > > Who was older - Celeborn or Galadriel? > > Tolkien never said. > > -- > AC I've read that Galadriel was the oldest elf in middle earth. Can't remember where I read it. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <3DFA4970.972C31E@eci.esys.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include "all" headers, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our New Gallery! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:08:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102798 In article <3DFA4970.972C31E@eci.esys.com>, John wrote: > > > AC wrote: > >> In article <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com>, NightWitchx wrote: >> > Who was older - Celeborn or Galadriel? >> >> Tolkien never said. >> >> -- >> AC > > I've read that Galadriel was the oldest elf in middle earth. Can't remember > where I read it. Not in any of Tolkien's writings. -- AC ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 13 Dec 2002 21:08:48 GMT References: <3DFA4970.972C31E@eci.esys.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-mm) Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021213160848.17758.00000068@mb-mm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102794 In article <3DFA4970.972C31E@eci.esys.com>, John writes: >I've read that Galadriel was the oldest elf in middle earth. Can't remember >where I read it. > You didn't. Cirdan is older than she. Russ "Only liberals really think. Only liberals are intellectual. Only liberals understand the needs of their fellows." How much viciousness lay concealed in that word! Odrade thought. How much secret ego demanding to feel superior. (Heretics of Dune) ###### From: Jon Meltzer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:26:57 -0500 Organization: Esoteric Order of Dagon Lines: 13 Message-ID: <22kkvukcphb5o7rsisrpu2n0ga9nqk8fm5@4ax.com> References: <3DFA4970.972C31E@eci.esys.com> <20021213160848.17758.00000068@mb-mm.aol.com> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.04.c6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 13 Dec 2002 21:28:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102809 On 13 Dec 2002 21:08:48 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <3DFA4970.972C31E@eci.esys.com>, John writes: > >>I've read that Galadriel was the oldest elf in middle earth. Can't remember >>where I read it. > >You didn't. Cirdan is older than she. Far, far older ... Cirdan was around before the Great Journey to Valinor, and if not a first generation Elf is almost that old. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1039833047 12.236.164.237 (Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:30:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:30:47 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:30:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102895 In article <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com>, jonmeltzer@mindspring.com says... > On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:40:10 GMT, Tar-Elenion > wrote: > > >In article <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com>, > >nightwitchx@aol.com says... > >> Who was older - Celeborn or Galadriel? > >> > >Unknown. We do know that Galadriel was considered young at the time of > >the rebellion. > > And Tolkien changed his mind several times about Celeborn's origins. > What does that have to do with Galadriel being considered young at the time of the rebellion? -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Message-ID: <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:56:00 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.116 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1039834521 20776 207.199.164.116 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102937 Tar-Elenion wrote: > > And Tolkien changed his mind several times about Celeborn's origins. > > > > What does that have to do with Galadriel being considered young at the > time of the rebellion? The description of Galadriel at the rebellion puts some limits around her age. At various times Tolkien wrote things that could be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: bomea@lao.on.ca (Andrew) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: 13 Dec 2002 19:01:02 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 10 Message-ID: <96df7c95.0212131901.33e7f612@posting.google.com> References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.185.84.70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1039834862 6059 127.0.0.1 (14 Dec 2002 03:01:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 2002 03:01:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102916 > Who was older - Celeborn or Galadriel? Don't you know its impolite to ask a woman her age. I am sure the first time Celeborn asked that of Galadriel he spent the night sleeping on a treebranch. You must admit that she does look good for her age. Cheers Andrew ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1039836113 12.236.164.237 (Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:21:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:21:53 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:21:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102910 In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > > And Tolkien changed his mind several times about Celeborn's origins. > > > > > > > What does that have to do with Galadriel being considered young at the > > time of the rebellion? > > The description of Galadriel at the rebellion puts some limits > around her age. Galadriel's age at the time of the rebellion was between 1200 and 1300 (sun) years of age (133 Valian Years). > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Lines: 10 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: tdciago@aol.comFeathers (Jiromi) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 Dec 2002 07:08:27 GMT References: <96df7c95.0212131901.33e7f612@posting.google.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021214020827.17828.00000056@mb-mm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102852 Andrew wrote: >Don't you know its impolite to ask a woman her age. I am sure the >first time Celeborn asked that of Galadriel he spent the night >sleeping on a treebranch. Doesn't he spend *every* night sleeping on a treebranch? Okay, maybe not sleeping. Meditating. Or whatever Elves do to rest. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:02:45 -0600 From: Bryan S. Slick Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:02:36 -0500 Message-ID: References: <96df7c95.0212131901.33e7f612@posting.google.com> <20021214020827.17828.00000056@mb-mm.aol.com> Organization: Rivendell Enterprises Reply-To: bryan@slick-family.not X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 16 X-Trace: sv3-JGXGo2N3VdXjNDWw/jHxuT3LlWh08dB1EqP34hBQb1/2e3K7pKkc8HLyuf5vO40XSU47R3qmgVnMatJ!ulPlKFooR7Ip1poF36SDLHsX6xhMbc544kN8+apVMUfhxRxW4802YGazOiaAcWcUaTYYjbyXfy0t!Jg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:102961 [Jiromi] [14 Dec 2002 07:08:27 GMT] :Andrew wrote: :>Don't you know its impolite to ask a woman her age. I am sure the :>first time Celeborn asked that of Galadriel he spent the night :>sleeping on a treebranch. : :Doesn't he spend *every* night sleeping on a treebranch? : :Okay, maybe not sleeping. Meditating. Or whatever Elves do to rest. Playing spades. -- Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net ###### From: Jon Meltzer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 07:32:57 -0500 Organization: Esoteric Order of Dagon Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <96df7c95.0212131901.33e7f612@posting.google.com> <20021214020827.17828.00000056@mb-mm.aol.com> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.0f.bc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 15 Dec 2002 12:34:37 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103089 On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:02:36 -0500, Bryan S. Slick wrote: >[Jiromi] >[14 Dec 2002 07:08:27 GMT] > >:Andrew wrote: >:>Don't you know its impolite to ask a woman her age. I am sure the >:>first time Celeborn asked that of Galadriel he spent the night >:>sleeping on a treebranch. >: >:Doesn't he spend *every* night sleeping on a treebranch? >: >:Okay, maybe not sleeping. Meditating. Or whatever Elves do to rest. > >Playing spades. No. Playing Solitaire on their Microsoft Windows palantirs. ###### Message-ID: <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:09:15 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.35 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1039995193 22816 207.199.164.35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103187 Tar-Elenion wrote: > > In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > > I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older than Galadriel. Galadriel also says he is counted wisest of Elves. That is a strange statement, since being among the Wise usually comes as a result of spending time with the Valar. Yet Celeborn is clearly not Noldor, and it appears he never saw the Light of the Trees. If he were part of the Return of the Noldor, then he would be approximately of the same generation as Galadriel. The evidence seems to be against that, so I find it very curious that the Noldor count Celeborn wiser than any of them. One explanation that fits is that Celeborn was, indeed, in the Awakening. I believe that would make him the only Elf remaining in Middle Earth who remembers the Awakening. That is a pedigree that might cause the Wise to count him as the wisest. Personally, I find it romantic and attractive to think that there is one of the Awakening who still remains. In the Silmarillion he is several times described as an Elf of Doriath. That could be interepreted as putting his birth anytime between the Awakening and the Return of the Noldor, so possibly either younger or older than Galadriel. Unfinished Tales also gives him an alternate history as a grandson of Elmo. I understand there is also support for this in the Silmarillion, though I didn't find the quote when I looked for it. That would make him younger than Galadriel. So it appears to me that Celeborn's origin and age is one of those questions that evolved in Tolkien's mind over the years, and we don't have a definitive answer. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include "all" headers, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our New Gallery! Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:43:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103144 In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday wrote: > Tar-Elenion wrote: >> >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. >> >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > > In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the > days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn > was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. > Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly > names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, > Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older > than Galadriel. Of course dawn could be meant literally. That Celeborn had dwelt in the West since the first rising of the Sun. -- AC ###### Lines: 74 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Dec 2002 00:10:49 GMT References: <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-fe) Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021215191049.15012.00000228@mb-fe.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103126 In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday writes: >Tar-Elenion wrote: >> >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. >> >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > >In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the >days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn >was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. >Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly >names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, >Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older >than Galadriel. The term 'West' applies also to the West of Middle-earth, not only the far West of Aman. Elves of the Great Journey were called West-elves, those who remained in Cuivienen were called East-elves. The the term West used by Galadriel means the West of Middle-earth. Moreover, the implication is clearly not that he was there as early as you are opining. There was not a dawn until the rising of the sun, which occurred a *long* time before the Awakening, the Great Journey or the Separation. >Galadriel also says he is counted wisest of Elves. That is a >strange statement, since being among the Wise usually comes as >a result of spending time with the Valar. Yet Celeborn is >clearly not Noldor, and it appears he never saw the Light of >the Trees. If he were part of the Return of the Noldor, then >he would be approximately of the same generation as Galadriel. >The evidence seems to be against that, so I find it very curious >that the Noldor count Celeborn wiser than any of them. Or that the wise ones already bit the dust. Celeborn may have been wiser than the Noldor currently around. In Galadriel's opinion, that is. >One explanation that fits is that Celeborn was, indeed, in >the Awakening. I believe that would make him the only Elf >remaining in Middle Earth who remembers the Awakening. That >is a pedigree that might cause the Wise to count him as the >wisest. Personally, I find it romantic and attractive to >think that there is one of the Awakening who still remains. This contradicts several genealogies for him that place him several generations from the Awakening. Your quote abov does not contradict that because Cuivienen was not in the West of Middle-earth. In fact, the elves who remained at Cuivienen were known as 'East-elves.' >In the Silmarillion he is several times described as an Elf of >Doriath. That could be interepreted as putting his birth anytime >between the Awakening and the Return of the Noldor, so possibly >either younger or older than Galadriel. > >Unfinished Tales also gives him an alternate history as a grandson >of Elmo. I understand there is also support for this in the >Silmarillion, though I didn't find the quote when I looked >for it. That would make him younger than Galadriel. Why? She's a grandaughter of Finwe and Olwe, both the same generation as Elmo. >So it appears to me that Celeborn's origin and age is one of those >questions that evolved in Tolkien's mind over the years, and >we don't have a definitive answer. Russ "Only liberals really think. Only liberals are intellectual. Only liberals understand the needs of their fellows." How much viciousness lay concealed in that word! Odrade thought. How much secret ego demanding to feel superior. (Heretics of Dune) ###### From: massar@alum.mit.edu (JP Massar) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <3dfd1d88.63707182@netnews.attbi.com> References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.233.254.142 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1039998544 12.233.254.142 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:29:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:29:04 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:29:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.6.MISMATCH!wn12feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103131 On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:09:15 -0500, Glenn Holliday wrote: >Tar-Elenion wrote: >> >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. >> >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > >In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the >days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn >was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. But it could also mean that he was born in the West of Middle Earth about the time that the Sun first rose, and remained there. This would make him younger than Galdriel. ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 03:31:55 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> <20021215191049.15012.00000228@mb-fe.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp139-144.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1039998634 54745 62.118.139.144 (16 Dec 2002 00:30:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:30:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: Where now the horse and the rider? Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news3.cnt.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103145 Russ wrote: > In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday > writes: > > >Tar-Elenion wrote: > >> [...] > >Galadriel also says he is counted wisest of Elves. That is a > >strange statement, since being among the Wise usually comes as > >a result of spending time with the Valar. Yet Celeborn is > >clearly not Noldor, and it appears he never saw the Light of > >the Trees. If he were part of the Return of the Noldor, then > >he would be approximately of the same generation as Galadriel. > >The evidence seems to be against that, so I find it very curious > >that the Noldor count Celeborn wiser than any of them. > > Or that the wise ones already bit the dust. Celeborn may have been wiser than > the Noldor currently around. In Galadriel's opinion, that is. > Your opinion is corroborated by a version of G&C in the UT where Celebrimbor is rejected by Galadriel in favour of Celeborn - who knew what his limitations were. Archie ###### Lines: 36 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Dec 2002 01:23:54 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-ch) Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021215202354.02640.00000215@mb-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103122 In article , writes: >Russ wrote: >> In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday >> writes: >> >> >Tar-Elenion wrote: >> >> >[...] >> >Galadriel also says he is counted wisest of Elves. That is a >> >strange statement, since being among the Wise usually comes as >> >a result of spending time with the Valar. Yet Celeborn is >> >clearly not Noldor, and it appears he never saw the Light of >> >the Trees. If he were part of the Return of the Noldor, then >> >he would be approximately of the same generation as Galadriel. >> >The evidence seems to be against that, so I find it very curious >> >that the Noldor count Celeborn wiser than any of them. >> >> Or that the wise ones already bit the dust. Celeborn may have been wiser >than >> the Noldor currently around. In Galadriel's opinion, that is. >> >Your opinion is corroborated by a version of G&C in the UT where >Celebrimbor is rejected by Galadriel in favour of Celeborn - who knew >what his limitations were. > Well, Galadriel sorta was already hooked up with Celeborn by that point so Celebrimbor hardly stood a chance. Russ "Only liberals really think. Only liberals are intellectual. Only liberals understand the needs of their fellows." How much viciousness lay concealed in that word! Odrade thought. How much secret ego demanding to feel superior. (Heretics of Dune) ###### From: lazarus Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> <20021215191049.15012.00000228@mb-fe.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 07:33:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.105.118.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.central.cox.net 1040024037 68.105.118.42 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 02:33:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 02:33:57 EST Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news.astraweb.com!news-small.astraweb.com!news-xfer.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.central.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103192 On 16 Dec 2002 00:10:49 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday >writes: > >>Tar-Elenion wrote: >>> >>> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... >>> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could >>> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after >>> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. >>> >>> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. >> >>In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the >>days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn >>was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. >>Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly >>names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, >>Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older >>than Galadriel. > >The term 'West' applies also to the West of Middle-earth, not only the far West >of Aman. Elves of the Great Journey were called West-elves, those who remained >in Cuivienen were called East-elves. The the term West used by Galadriel means >the West of Middle-earth. Moreover, the implication is clearly not that he was >there as early as you are opining. There was not a dawn until the rising of >the sun, which occurred a *long* time before the Awakening, the Great Journey >or the Separation. Um, the rising of the sun occurred after the Kin-Slaying, when the Noldor set foot on Middle-Earth again upon their exile. Beginning of the First Age. Did you mean a long time after, rather than before? -- lazarus "Therefore, my Harry, Be it thy course to busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels; that action, hence borne out, may waste the memory of the former days." -- King Henry IV, Part ii Act 4, Scene 5 ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Dec 2002 15:04:37 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-cm) Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021216100437.18530.00000054@mb-cm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103127 In article , lazarus writes: >There was not a dawn until the rising of >>the sun, which occurred a *long* time before the Awakening, the Great >Journey >>or the Separation. > >Um, the rising of the sun occurred after the Kin-Slaying, when the >Noldor set foot on Middle-Earth again upon their exile. Beginning of >the First Age. Did you mean a long time after, rather than before? > Yep. Russ "Only liberals really think. Only liberals are intellectual. Only liberals understand the needs of their fellows." How much viciousness lay concealed in that word! Odrade thought. How much secret ego demanding to feel superior. (Heretics of Dune) ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 88 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1040061569 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:59:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:59:29 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:59:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103152 In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > > In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > > > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > > > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > > > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > > > > I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > > In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the > days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn > was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. > Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly > names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, > Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older > than Galadriel. I don't find it that easy to interpret it that way. The 'days of dawn' just means for a long time. Celeborn could not be part of the original Awakening as his wife was Galadriel and she was not part of it. RGEO, which was published by JRRT in his lifetime, explicitly makes Celeborn a Sinda, and (to my mind) trumps possible changes indicated elsewhere. > > Galadriel also says he is counted wisest of Elves. That is a > strange statement, since being among the Wise usually comes as > a result of spending time with the Valar. Cirdan and Elrond were both accounted among the Wise. Indeed Cirdan saw further and deeper than anyone else in Middle-earth. > Yet Celeborn is > clearly not Noldor, and it appears he never saw the Light of > the Trees. If he were part of the Return of the Noldor, then > he would be approximately of the same generation as Galadriel. As either the grandson of Elmo or the grandson of Olwe he would be of the same generation as Galadriel (however if Celeborn were to be the grandson of Olwe, his marriage to Galadriel would be incestuous according to the ways of the Eldar). In any event Galadriels cousins and sibilings were all older than her, despite being of the same generation. > The evidence seems to be against that, so I find it very curious > that the Noldor count Celeborn wiser than any of them. > One explanation that fits is that Celeborn was, indeed, in > the Awakening. I believe that would make him the only Elf > remaining in Middle Earth who remembers the Awakening. That > is a pedigree that might cause the Wise to count him as the > wisest. Personally, I find it romantic and attractive to > think that there is one of the Awakening who still remains. Again this would be impossible, those Elves who Awoke at Cuivienen each awoke with their 'destined spouse'. Galadriel, his spouse, was born in Aman. > > In the Silmarillion he is several times described as an Elf of > Doriath. That could be interepreted as putting his birth anytime > between the Awakening and the Return of the Noldor, so possibly > either younger or older than Galadriel. > > Unfinished Tales also gives him an alternate history as a grandson > of Elmo. I understand there is also support for this in the > Silmarillion, though I didn't find the quote when I looked > for it. That would make him younger than Galadriel. The Silmarillion does not give Celeborn's parentage. As I noted above RGEO makes Celeborn a Sinda of Doriath. This is in keeping with him being the grandson of Elmo (brother of Olwe and Elwe). I do not see how this would make him younger than Galadriel however. They would be of the same generation, and Galadriel was (with Aredhel) the youngest of her generation of Finwe's descendants. Celeborn was the second of his generation from Elmo. > > So it appears to me that Celeborn's origin and age is one of those > questions that evolved in Tolkien's mind over the years, and > we don't have a definitive answer. Quite, but I don't think anything supports Celeborn being younger than Galadriel. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1040061670 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:01:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:01:10 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:01:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103157 In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid says... > In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday wrote: > > Tar-Elenion wrote: > >> > >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > >> > >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > > > > In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the > > days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn > > was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. > > Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly > > names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, > > Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older > > than Galadriel. > > Of course dawn could be meant literally. That Celeborn had dwelt in the > West since the first rising of the Sun. That would make him older than the Elvish race. > > -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include "all" headers, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our New Gallery! Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:01:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!wanadoo.fr!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103150 In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid > says... >> In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday wrote: >> > Tar-Elenion wrote: >> >> >> >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... >> >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could >> >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after >> >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. >> >> >> >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. >> > >> > In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the >> > days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn >> > was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. >> > Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly >> > names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, >> > Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older >> > than Galadriel. >> >> Of course dawn could be meant literally. That Celeborn had dwelt in the >> West since the first rising of the Sun. > > That would make him older than the Elvish race. Eh? Elves awoke beneath the stars, unless you are talking about the incomplete attempt by Tolkien to write a round-Earth version of the mythology. It was Men who awoke with the rising of the Sun. -- AC ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Dec 2002 18:03:30 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-bd) Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021216130330.19512.00000162@mb-bd.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103121 In article , Tar-Elenion writes: >> > In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the >> > days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn >> > was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. >> > Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly >> > names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, So? The Sindar are a subset of Teleri. >> > Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older >> > than Galadriel. >> >> Of course dawn could be meant literally. That Celeborn had dwelt in the >> West since the first rising of the Sun. > >That would make him older than the Elvish race. Why? The Sun didn't rise until Fingolfin set foot in ME. Russ "Only liberals really think. Only liberals are intellectual. Only liberals understand the needs of their fellows." How much viciousness lay concealed in that word! Odrade thought. How much secret ego demanding to feel superior. (Heretics of Dune) ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> <20021215191049.15012.00000228@mb-fe.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1040061930 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:05:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:05:30 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:05:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103171 In article , lazarus33pjf@cox.net says... > On 16 Dec 2002 00:10:49 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > > >In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday > >writes: > > > >>Tar-Elenion wrote: > >>> > >>> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > >>> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > >>> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > >>> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > >>> > >>> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > >> > >>In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the > >>days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn > >>was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. > >>Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly > >>names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, > >>Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older > >>than Galadriel. > > > >The term 'West' applies also to the West of Middle-earth, not only the far West > >of Aman. Elves of the Great Journey were called West-elves, those who remained > >in Cuivienen were called East-elves. The the term West used by Galadriel means > >the West of Middle-earth. Moreover, the implication is clearly not that he was > >there as early as you are opining. There was not a dawn until the rising of > >the sun, which occurred a *long* time before the Awakening, the Great Journey > >or the Separation. > > Um, the rising of the sun occurred after the Kin-Slaying, when the > Noldor set foot on Middle-Earth again upon their exile. Beginning of > the First Age. Did you mean a long time after, rather than before? As Russ said above, the (first) rising of the sun occured long _before_ the Kin-slaying, before the Noldor set foot on Middle-earth. And the First Age lasted thousands of years. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> <3dfd1d88.63707182@netnews.attbi.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1040062055 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:07:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:07:35 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:07:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103160 In article <3dfd1d88.63707182@netnews.attbi.com>, massar@alum.mit.edu says... > On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:09:15 -0500, Glenn Holliday > wrote: > > >Tar-Elenion wrote: > >> > >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > >> > >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > > > >In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the > >days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn > >was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. > > But it could also mean that he was born in the West of Middle Earth > about the time that the Sun first rose, and remained there. > > This would make him younger than Galdriel. The Sun first rose long before Galadriel was ever born. 'Days of dawn' just means a long time IMO. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Lines: 25 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Dec 2002 18:11:01 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-bd) Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021216131101.19512.00000163@mb-bd.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103120 In article , Tar-Elenion writes: >There was not a dawn until the rising of >> >the sun, which occurred a *long* time before the Awakening, the Great >Journey >> >or the Separation. >> >> Um, the rising of the sun occurred after the Kin-Slaying, when the >> Noldor set foot on Middle-Earth again upon their exile. Beginning of >> the First Age. Did you mean a long time after, rather than before? > >As Russ said above, the (first) rising of the sun occured long _before_ >the Kin-slaying, before the Noldor set foot on Middle-earth. And the >First Age lasted thousands of years. That was an inadvertant typo. The sun rose when Fingolfin set foot upon Middle-earth. (I'm no counting the very late revisions Tolkien was working on) Russ "Only liberals really think. Only liberals are intellectual. Only liberals understand the needs of their fellows." How much viciousness lay concealed in that word! Odrade thought. How much secret ego demanding to feel superior. (Heretics of Dune) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> <3dfd1d88.63707182@netnews.attbi.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include "all" headers, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our New Gallery! Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:16:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103146 In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: > In article <3dfd1d88.63707182@netnews.attbi.com>, massar@alum.mit.edu > says... >> On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:09:15 -0500, Glenn Holliday >> wrote: >> >> >Tar-Elenion wrote: >> >> >> >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... >> >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could >> >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after >> >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. >> >> >> >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. >> > >> >In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the >> >days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn >> >was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. >> >> But it could also mean that he was born in the West of Middle Earth >> about the time that the Sun first rose, and remained there. >> >> This would make him younger than Galdriel. > > The Sun first rose long before Galadriel was ever born. 'Days of dawn' > just means a long time IMO. The Elves were born long before the first rising of the Sun. Remember, the Sun and the Moon were made from the last flowers of the Two Trees, and the Eldar were in Aman when the Two Trees still lived. -- AC ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1040064131 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:42:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:42:11 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:42:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103168 In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid says... > In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: > > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid > > says... > >> In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday wrote: > >> > Tar-Elenion wrote: > >> >> > >> >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > >> >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > >> >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > >> >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > >> >> > >> >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > >> > > >> > In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the > >> > days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn > >> > was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. > >> > Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly > >> > names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, > >> > Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older > >> > than Galadriel. > >> > >> Of course dawn could be meant literally. That Celeborn had dwelt in the > >> West since the first rising of the Sun. > > > > That would make him older than the Elvish race. > > Eh? Elves awoke beneath the stars, unless you are talking about the > incomplete attempt by Tolkien to write a round-Earth version of the > mythology. It was Men who awoke with the rising of the Sun. > > No, I am in this case referring to LotR (where the passage under discussion is from) and The Hobbit. In LotR and The Hobbit the Sun is older than Elves (the Myths Transformed supports this as does Q&E and the Late Writings). For example from LotR read Gimli's song in Moria, (and arguably Galadriel's 'I sang of leaves'). Also note in The Hobbit (Flies and Spiders) that when the Light-elves, Deep-elves and Sea-elves journed to the West, "the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon". -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021216130330.19512.00000162@mb-bd.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1040064311 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:45:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:45:11 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:45:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!wn12feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103178 In article <20021216130330.19512.00000162@mb-bd.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com says... > In article , Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >> > >> Of course dawn could be meant literally. That Celeborn had dwelt in the > >> West since the first rising of the Sun. > > > >That would make him older than the Elvish race. > > Why? The Sun didn't rise until Fingolfin set foot in ME. Not according to LotR and The Hobbit, but see my reply to AC above. I thought you were refering to that in your above post but I see that you thought that you were in error. But really you were not. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 45 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include "all" headers, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our New Gallery! Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 19:48:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103221 In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid > says... >> In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: >> > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid >> > says... >> >> >> >> Eh? Elves awoke beneath the stars, unless you are talking about the >> >> incomplete attempt by Tolkien to write a round-Earth version of the >> >> mythology. It was Men who awoke with the rising of the Sun. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > No, I am in this case referring to LotR (where the passage under >> > discussion is from) and The Hobbit. In LotR and The Hobbit the Sun is >> > older than Elves (the Myths Transformed supports this as does Q&E and the >> > Late Writings). >> >> So you're stating that Myths Transformed is canonical? > > No. LotR, RGEO, A Guide to Names and The Hobbit are canonical. > However Myths Transformed, Quendi and Eldar and Late Writings support > what is written in the canonical LotR etc. > > Are you stating that The Silmarillion is canonical? > No, and neither is HoME. And you have yet to actually prove LotR says the world was round from the beginning, or that the cosmology was fundementally changed during the writing of LotR. Unfortunately, I am nowhere near my books, but I believe the chronology is quite clear. The basic notion of the round-Earth mythology arose during the final stages of LotR, but was not taken up until the late 1950s and early 1960s. Thus when LotR was written, flat-Earth was still in place. Elves awoke beneath the stars in a world that was still flat, and the Downfall of Numenor was an intervention that lead to the rounding of the Earth. You seem to have interpreted two passages that, in and of themselves say little or nothing as to the cosmology, and then claimed, chronologically out of sequence, that the round-Earth cosmology was in place. But as I said, I'm not near my books, so I'll have to wait until I can get a hold of the passages in question, and then we'll talk. -- AC ###### Lines: 27 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Dec 2002 19:58:10 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-fa) Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021216145810.10302.00000130@mb-fa.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103209 In article , Tar-Elenion writes: >> Eh? Elves awoke beneath the stars, unless you are talking about the >> incomplete attempt by Tolkien to write a round-Earth version of the >> mythology. It was Men who awoke with the rising of the Sun. >> >> > >No, I am in this case referring to LotR (where the passage under >discussion is from) and The Hobbit. In LotR and The Hobbit the Sun is >older than Elves (the Myths Transformed supports this as does Q&E and the >Late Writings). For example from LotR read Gimli's song in Moria, (and >arguably Galadriel's 'I sang of leaves'). Also note in The Hobbit (Flies >and Spiders) that when the Light-elves, Deep-elves and Sea-elves journed >to the West, "the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and >Moon". > Huh? I can't see how any of this supports the notion that in LOTR and Hobbit the Sun is older than the Elves. Russ "Only liberals really think. Only liberals are intellectual. Only liberals understand the needs of their fellows." How much viciousness lay concealed in that word! Odrade thought. How much secret ego demanding to feel superior. (Heretics of Dune) ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 23:29:42 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <20021216131101.19512.00000163@mb-bd.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp138-189.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1040070496 33694 62.118.138.189 (16 Dec 2002 20:28:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:28:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: Where now the horse and the rider? Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news1.spb.su!news-zero.demos.su!demos!news.rssi.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103217 Russ wrote: > In article , Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >There was not a dawn until the rising of > >> >the sun, which occurred a *long* time before the Awakening, the Great > >Journey > >> >or the Separation. > >> > >> Um, the rising of the sun occurred after the Kin-Slaying, when the > >> Noldor set foot on Middle-Earth again upon their exile. Beginning of > >> the First Age. Did you mean a long time after, rather than before? > > > >As Russ said above, the (first) rising of the sun occured long _before_ > >the Kin-slaying, before the Noldor set foot on Middle-earth. And the > >First Age lasted thousands of years. > > That was an inadvertant typo. The sun rose when Fingolfin set foot upon > Middle-earth. (I'm no counting the very late revisions Tolkien was working > on) Do you have the mental picture of it? I suppose it is one of the most promising upbeat scenes for a movie (if it is ever made). Archie P.S. How many people out there *do agree* with the late revisions? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021216131101.19512.00000163@mb-bd.aol.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include "all" headers, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our New Gallery! Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:32:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103222 In article , wrote: > Russ wrote: >> In article , Tar-Elenion >> writes: >> >> >There was not a dawn until the rising of >> >> >the sun, which occurred a *long* time before the Awakening, the Great >> >Journey >> >> >or the Separation. >> >> >> >> Um, the rising of the sun occurred after the Kin-Slaying, when the >> >> Noldor set foot on Middle-Earth again upon their exile. Beginning of >> >> the First Age. Did you mean a long time after, rather than before? >> > >> >As Russ said above, the (first) rising of the sun occured long _before_ >> >the Kin-slaying, before the Noldor set foot on Middle-earth. And the >> >First Age lasted thousands of years. >> >> That was an inadvertant typo. The sun rose when Fingolfin set foot upon >> Middle-earth. (I'm no counting the very late revisions Tolkien was working >> on) > > Do you have the mental picture of it? I suppose it is one of the most > promising upbeat scenes for a movie (if it is ever made). I agree. It is an extraordinarily stirring image, a perfect counterpoint to the Kinslaying, and one that seemed to offer some hope that the Noldor wouldn't fail utterly. -- AC ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021216145810.10302.00000130@mb-fa.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1040071457 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:44:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:44:17 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:44:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103228 In article <20021216145810.10302.00000130@mb-fa.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com says... > In article , Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >> Eh? Elves awoke beneath the stars, unless you are talking about the > >> incomplete attempt by Tolkien to write a round-Earth version of the > >> mythology. It was Men who awoke with the rising of the Sun. > >> > >> > > > >No, I am in this case referring to LotR (where the passage under > >discussion is from) and The Hobbit. In LotR and The Hobbit the Sun is > >older than Elves (the Myths Transformed supports this as does Q&E and the > >Late Writings). For example from LotR read Gimli's song in Moria, (and > >arguably Galadriel's 'I sang of leaves'). Also note in The Hobbit (Flies > >and Spiders) that when the Light-elves, Deep-elves and Sea-elves journed > >to the West, "the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and > >Moon". > > > > Huh? I can't see how any of this supports the notion that in LOTR and Hobbit > the Sun is older than the Elves. > From Flies and Spiders: " -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Lines: 32 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Dec 2002 20:51:40 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-fa) Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021216155140.10302.00000135@mb-fa.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103210 In article , writes: >Do you have the mental picture of it? I suppose it is one of the most >promising upbeat scenes for a movie (if it is ever made). > >Archie > >P.S. How many people out there *do agree* with the late revisions? I don't know whether it's a matter of agree or disagree. Christopher seems to give these revisions some weight however, from the material we see, they seem very sketchy and it does not at all seem clear they represent a true change of mind on his father's part. However, even in these *potential* revisions, Tolkien wanted to keep the idea of a 'rising of the sun' at the point of Fingolfin's arrival in Middle-earth. Tolkien solution was that the sun and moon were either shrouded or knocked off course or otherwise not visible due to the primeval wars between the Valar and Melkor. Thus even in the revisions, Tolkien retained a 'rising of the Sun'. In the regular version, the Sun and Moon were newly created; in the revised version they were fixed so that they could be seen from ME. In either event, the Sun and Moon could not be seen from ME during all that time. Whether we are considering the original or the revised, from Cuivienen to Fingolfin's landing ME was in starlight alone. Russ "Only liberals really think. Only liberals are intellectual. Only liberals understand the needs of their fellows." How much viciousness lay concealed in that word! Odrade thought. How much secret ego demanding to feel superior. (Heretics of Dune) ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021216145810.10302.00000130@mb-fa.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 80 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1040073338 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:15:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:15:38 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:15:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103226 In article <20021216145810.10302.00000130@mb-fa.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com says... > In article , Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >> Eh? Elves awoke beneath the stars, unless you are talking about the > >> incomplete attempt by Tolkien to write a round-Earth version of the > >> mythology. It was Men who awoke with the rising of the Sun. > >> > >> > > > >No, I am in this case referring to LotR (where the passage under > >discussion is from) and The Hobbit. In LotR and The Hobbit the Sun is > >older than Elves (the Myths Transformed supports this as does Q&E and the > >Late Writings). For example from LotR read Gimli's song in Moria, (and > >arguably Galadriel's 'I sang of leaves'). Also note in The Hobbit (Flies > >and Spiders) that when the Light-elves, Deep-elves and Sea-elves journed > >to the West, "the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and > >Moon". > > > > Huh? I can't see how any of this supports the notion that in LOTR and Hobbit > the Sun is older than the Elves. > From Flies and Spiders: "The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea- elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost." How can the Wood-elves linger in the Wide World in the twilight of the Sun and Moon while the High Elves are living in Faereie for ages, before the Return of the Noldor if the Sun and Moon did not exist then? See also Anderson's commentary in the Annotated Hobbit. The 1937 version has a the Wood-elves lingering "in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon...". JRRT changes this in the revision. From A Journey in the Dark: "The world was young, the mountains green, No stain yet on the Moon was seen, No words were laid on stream or stone When Durin woke and walked alone... A king he was on carven throne In many-pillared hals of stone With golden roof and silver floor, And runes of power on the door. The light of sun and star and moon In shining lamps of crystal hewn Undimmed by cloud or shade of night There shone forever fair and bright." How can Durin awake with an extant Moon, and have the light of sun and moon in crystal lamps if the Sun and Moon did not exist for ages afterward? From Farewell to Lorien: "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew: Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew. Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a Golden tree." How can there be a Sun and Moon beyond which Galadriel was singing _in Ilmaren_, if Galadriel passed into Beleriand before they rose? (And to think, all I was doing was agreeing with you). :) -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### Lines: 17 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Dec 2002 21:20:04 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-fa) Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: <20021216162004.10302.00000136@mb-fa.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103208 In article , Tar-Elenion writes: >> Huh? I can't see how any of this supports the notion that in LOTR and >Hobbit >> the Sun is older than the Elves. >> >From Flies and Spiders: >" The quote didn't make it. Russ "Only liberals really think. Only liberals are intellectual. Only liberals understand the needs of their fellows." How much viciousness lay concealed in that word! Odrade thought. How much secret ego demanding to feel superior. (Heretics of Dune) ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 00:28:46 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp138-109.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1040074040 38250 62.118.138.109 (16 Dec 2002 21:27:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:27:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: Where now the horse and the rider? Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!any.msu.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103218 Tar-Elenion wrote: > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid > says... > > In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid > > > says... > > >> In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday wrote: > > >> > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > > >> >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > > >> >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > > >> >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > > >> >> > > >> >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > > >> > > > >> > In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the > > >> > days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn > > >> > was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. > > >> > Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly > > >> > names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, > > >> > Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older > > >> > than Galadriel. > > >> > > >> Of course dawn could be meant literally. That Celeborn had dwelt in the > > >> West since the first rising of the Sun. > > > > > > That would make him older than the Elvish race. > > > > Eh? Elves awoke beneath the stars, unless you are talking about the > > incomplete attempt by Tolkien to write a round-Earth version of the > > mythology. It was Men who awoke with the rising of the Sun. > > > > > > No, I am in this case referring to LotR (where the passage under > discussion is from) and The Hobbit. In LotR and The Hobbit the Sun is > older than Elves (the Myths Transformed supports this as does Q&E and the > Late Writings). For example from LotR read Gimli's song in Moria, (and > arguably Galadriel's 'I sang of leaves'). Also note in The Hobbit (Flies > and Spiders) that when the Light-elves, Deep-elves and Sea-elves journed > to the West, "the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and > Moon". What we have here is an attempt to confront Q.S. with indirect evidence picked piecewise from LotR and the Hobbit. The MT and all other late writings represent an altogether different albeit unfinished mythology with an implicit intention to bring Arda in agreement with modern science. Speaking for myself, I do not see how this 'Round-Earth' mythos can be reconciled with the immense corpus of 'Flat-Earth' legends. Loving the latter as a (mostly) internally coherent piece of art I discount late writings as a (totally understandable) weakness of Tolkien's mind. In his late years Tolkien was tempted by his old acquaintance - the daemon of perfection. Alas! He failed. Archie ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 126 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1040074519 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:35:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:35:19 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:35:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103231 In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid says... > In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: > > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid > > says... > >> In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: > >> > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid > >> > says... > >> >> > >> >> Eh? Elves awoke beneath the stars, unless you are talking about the > >> >> incomplete attempt by Tolkien to write a round-Earth version of the > >> >> mythology. It was Men who awoke with the rising of the Sun. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > No, I am in this case referring to LotR (where the passage under > >> > discussion is from) and The Hobbit. In LotR and The Hobbit the Sun is > >> > older than Elves (the Myths Transformed supports this as does Q&E and the > >> > Late Writings). > >> > >> So you're stating that Myths Transformed is canonical? > > > > No. LotR, RGEO, A Guide to Names and The Hobbit are canonical. > > However Myths Transformed, Quendi and Eldar and Late Writings support > > what is written in the canonical LotR etc. > > > > Are you stating that The Silmarillion is canonical? > > > > No, and neither is HoME. Then it is a good thing I am using LotR, RGEO and The Hobbit. > And you have yet to actually prove LotR says the > world was round from the beginning, I have not said anything about a 'round world'. I have pointed out the extant Sun and Moon. > or that the cosmology was fundementally > changed during the writing of LotR. The passage I have cited show an already extant Sun and Moon. > Unfortunately, I am nowhere near my > books, but I believe the chronology is quite clear. The basic notion of the > round-Earth mythology arose during the final stages of LotR, but was not > taken up until the late 1950s and early 1960s. Thus when LotR was written, > flat-Earth was still in place. Elves awoke beneath the stars in a world > that was still flat, and the Downfall of Numenor was an intervention that > lead to the rounding of the Earth. You seem to have interpreted two > passages that, in and of themselves say little or nothing as to the cosmology, > and then claimed, chronologically out of sequence, that the round-Earth > cosmology was in place. I made no such claim. The passages show an already extant sun and moon. This is neither out of context nor out of sequence. Indeed I am using _only_ the canonical works to prove my position. LotR and The Hobbit make no mention of a sun and moon that rise only when the Noldor return. > > But as I said, I'm not near my books, so I'll have to wait until I can get a > hold of the passages in question, and then we'll talk. Here are the passages: From Flies and Spiders: "The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea- elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost." How can the Wood-elves linger in the Wide World in the twilight of the Sun and Moon while the High Elves are living in Faereie for ages, before the Return of the Noldor if the Sun and Moon did not exist then? See also Anderson's commentary in the Annotated Hobbit. The 1937 version has a the Wood-elves lingering "in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon...". JRRT changes this in the revision. From A Journey in the Dark: "The world was young, the mountains green, No stain yet on the Moon was seen, No words were laid on stream or stone When Durin woke and walked alone... A king he was on carven throne In many-pillared hals of stone With golden roof and silver floor, And runes of power on the door. The light of sun and star and moon In shining lamps of crystal hewn Undimmed by cloud or shade of night There shone forever fair and bright." How can Durin awake with an extant Moon, and have the light of sun and moon in crystal lamps if the Sun and Moon did not exist for ages afterward? From Farewell to Lorien: "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew: Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew. Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea, And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a Golden tree." How can there be a Sun and Moon beyond which Galadriel was singing _in Ilmaren_, if Galadriel passed into Beleriand before they rose? > > -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 68 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1040074784 12.236.164.237 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:39:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:39:44 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:39:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103230 In article , put-the-no-mail- out-archimedes99@mail.ru says... > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid > > says... > > > In article , Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > > In article , spam@nospam.com.invalid > > > > says... > > > >> In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, Glenn Holliday wrote: > > > >> > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > > > >> >> > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > > > >> >> > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > > > >> >> > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > > > >> > > > > >> > In FOTR Galadriel says that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the > > > >> > days of dawn." It's easy to interpret that to say that Celeborn > > > >> > was part of the original Awakening and refused the Great Journey. > > > >> > Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn," explicitly > > > >> > names him a Teleri, though he is elsewhere called Sindarin, > > > >> > Either way, being alive at the time of the Journey make him older > > > >> > than Galadriel. > > > >> > > > >> Of course dawn could be meant literally. That Celeborn had dwelt in the > > > >> West since the first rising of the Sun. > > > > > > > > That would make him older than the Elvish race. > > > > > > Eh? Elves awoke beneath the stars, unless you are talking about the > > > incomplete attempt by Tolkien to write a round-Earth version of the > > > mythology. It was Men who awoke with the rising of the Sun. > > > > > > > > > > No, I am in this case referring to LotR (where the passage under > > discussion is from) and The Hobbit. In LotR and The Hobbit the Sun is > > older than Elves (the Myths Transformed supports this as does Q&E and the > > Late Writings). For example from LotR read Gimli's song in Moria, (and > > arguably Galadriel's 'I sang of leaves'). Also note in The Hobbit (Flies > > and Spiders) that when the Light-elves, Deep-elves and Sea-elves journed > > to the West, "the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and > > Moon". > What we have here is an attempt to confront Q.S. with indirect evidence > picked piecewise from LotR and the Hobbit. The MT and all other late > writings represent an altogether different albeit unfinished mythology > with an implicit intention to bring Arda in agreement with modern > science. The evidence is quite direct and directly from the 'canon'. I have posted the passages in question. > > Speaking for myself, I do not see how this 'Round-Earth' mythos can be > reconciled with the immense corpus of 'Flat-Earth' legends. Loving the > latter as a (mostly) internally coherent piece of art I discount late > writings as a (totally understandable) weakness of Tolkien's mind. It is easy to reconcile. It is Mannish myth and legend, confused with some Elvish fact. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 00:56:55 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <20021216155140.10302.00000135@mb-fa.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp130-106.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1040075731 39543 62.118.130.106 (16 Dec 2002 21:55:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:55:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: Where now the horse and the rider? Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!any.msu.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103219 Russ wrote: > In article , > writes: [...] > >P.S. How many people out there *do agree* with the late revisions? > > I don't know whether it's a matter of agree or disagree. Christopher seems to > give these revisions some weight however, from the material we see, they seem > very sketchy and it does not at all seem clear they represent a true change of > mind on his father's part. I found illuminating the version of the Drowning where the Elves were merged with the Valar (in Mannish legends) into the Avaloim(sp?). Perhaps, late revisions were meant to add one or more layers of legends onto the QS 'truths'. > However, even in these *potential* revisions, Tolkien wanted to keep the idea > of a 'rising of the sun' at the point of Fingolfin's arrival in Middle-earth. > Tolkien solution was that the sun and moon were either shrouded or knocked off > course or otherwise not visible due to the primeval wars between the Valar and > Melkor. Thus even in the revisions, Tolkien retained a 'rising of the Sun'. > In the regular version, the Sun and Moon were newly created; in the revised > version they were fixed so that they could be seen from ME. Too many additional assumptions to heap on unsuspecting readers. > In either event, the Sun and Moon could not be seen from ME during all that > time. Whether we are considering the original or the revised, from Cuivienen > to Fingolfin's landing ME was in starlight alone. You discount Morgoth. His 'surprised' attitude was a very efficient explanation of why the Noldor succeeded (in military terms) in putting Angband under siege. To explain that success away by recourse to the statement 'OK, Morgoth knew about the Sun, but the Orcs didn't' is to diminish the tension in the narrative. Archie ###### Message-ID: <3DFE9CAF.E62D41E7@acm.org> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:40:36 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.7 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1040096430 28549 207.199.164.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103503 Tar-Elenion wrote: > > In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > > > > In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > > > > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > > > > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > > > > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > > > > > > I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. This thread sure grew a lot in one day. And it's an interesting discussion. > > Again this would be impossible, those Elves who Awoke at Cuivienen each > awoke with their 'destined spouse'. Galadriel, his spouse, was born in > Aman. I'm persuaded that the support for Celeborn being among the Awakening is feeble. But I don't think the "destined spouse" doctrine is very helpful. I didn't find that passage while looking, but the Silmarillion's description of that passage doesn't include it. I recall a passage somewhere else about seeing some in couples and some singly... Is there a more canonical source? Thingol, of course, found his spouse while on the Journey, so if "destined spouse" is doctrine, it's not foolproof. > Quite, but I don't think anything supports Celeborn being younger than > Galadriel. I think the evidence is stronger for him being older, but my original point was the evidence is not explicit and could be interpreted either way. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> <3DFE9CAF.E62D41E7@acm.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 63 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1040098011 12.236.164.237 (Tue, 17 Dec 2002 04:06:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 04:06:51 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 04:06:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn14feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103420 In article <3DFE9CAF.E62D41E7@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > > In article <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > > > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > > > > > > In article <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org>, holliday@acm.org says... > > > > > At various times Tolkien wrote things that could > > > > > be interpreted as putting Celborn's birth either before or after > > > > > the approximate time we know for Galadriel's birth. > > > > > > > > I don't think so. But I would be willing to look at your evidence. > > This thread sure grew a lot in one day. And it's an interesting > discussion. Thanks. > > > > > Again this would be impossible, those Elves who Awoke at Cuivienen each > > awoke with their 'destined spouse'. Galadriel, his spouse, was born in > > Aman. > > I'm persuaded that the support for Celeborn being among the Awakening > is feeble. But I don't think the "destined spouse" doctrine is > very helpful. I didn't find that passage while looking, but the > Silmarillion's description of that passage doesn't include it. > I recall a passage somewhere else about seeing some in couples > and some singly... Is there a more canonical source? The Legend of the Awakening in of the Quendi in WotJ, given as an appendix to Quendi and Eldar. "While their first bodies were being made from the 'flesh of Arda' the Quendi slept 'in the womb of the Earth', beneath the green sward, and awoke when they were full-grown. But the First Elves (also called the Unbegotten, or the Eru-begotten) did not all wake together. Eru had so ordained that each should lie beside his or her 'destined spouse'." There were 144 Unbegotten, 72 male and 72 female. > > Thingol, of course, found his spouse while on the Journey, so if > "destined spouse" is doctrine, it's not foolproof. Thingol did not Awaken at Cuivienen. He was born there. He also had at least two siblings. Similarly Ingwe was born (he had a sister (Indis who Finwe later married) or Indis mother). Finwe also did not Awaken as his first wife was Miriel who had parents and was likely born in Aman. > > > Quite, but I don't think anything supports Celeborn being younger than > > Galadriel. > > I think the evidence is stronger for him being older, but my > original point was the evidence is not explicit and could be > interpreted either way. Okay. :) -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:03:43 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp136-155.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1040126545 89279 62.118.136.155 (17 Dec 2002 12:02:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:02:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: Where now the horse and the rider? Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!demos!news.rssi.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103378 Matthew Bladen wrote: > wrote in message > news:MPG.18687ec6789d5cf5989760@news.mtu-net.ru... > > [snip] > > > Speaking for myself, I do not see how this 'Round-Earth' mythos can be > > reconciled with the immense corpus of 'Flat-Earth' legends. Loving the > > latter as a (mostly) internally coherent piece of art I discount late > > writings as a (totally understandable) weakness of Tolkien's mind. > > I once postulated that he could have kept the Flat World legends by having > the Downfall as a structural alteration in the nature of Arda by the One > (a glitch in the Matrix?). So that, from the Downfall onwards, the world > not only was round, but had ALWAYS been round, while retaining a memory > of another set of rules. > > Since Eru is in supreme control of his creation Ea, there is no reason why > this would not be possible. It's exactly like an author retroactively > introducing > alterations into his story -- the drafts may preserve a memory of another > time, > and in the case of Middle-earth the Elves helped keep this memory alive. > > I don't think this possibility ever occurred to Tolkien, which is a pity -- > it > has a lot to do with one of his major themes, the nature and power of > story-telling, and it would have enabled him to preserve his older work and > not attempt an essentially destructive process of rewriting that probably > stopped him from ever finishing the Silmarillion. Even Eru has limitations on his means imposed by his grand plan. Depriving people of the memory of the Flat world is like ridding them of history and the right to remember the Good and the Evil of the first two ages. And the author, too, as a sub-creator is bound by his earlier thoughts. Archie ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1040183425 12.236.164.237 (Wed, 18 Dec 2002 03:50:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 03:50:25 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 03:50:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn14feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103447 In article , put-the-no-mail- out-archimedes99@mail.ru says... > Matthew Bladen wrote: > > wrote in message > > news:MPG.18687ec6789d5cf5989760@news.mtu-net.ru... > > > > [snip] > > I don't think this possibility ever occurred to Tolkien, which is a pity -- > > it > > has a lot to do with one of his major themes, the nature and power of > > story-telling, and it would have enabled him to preserve his older work and > > not attempt an essentially destructive process of rewriting that probably > > stopped him from ever finishing the Silmarillion. > > Even Eru has limitations on his means imposed by his grand plan. > Depriving people of the memory of the Flat world is like ridding them of > history and the right to remember the Good and the Evil of the first two > ages. > > And the author, too, as a sub-creator is bound by his earlier thoughts. So: Aragorn is Trotter the Hobbit with wooden feet? Dwarves are actually evil? Eonwe is Fionwe and the son of Manwe? Gothmog is the son of Morgoth? I could go on... -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:56:13 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp139-52.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1040205281 432 62.118.139.52 (18 Dec 2002 09:54:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:54:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Incantation: Where now the horse and the rider? Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.sovam.com!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103364 Tar-Elenion wrote: > In article , put-the-no-mail- > out-archimedes99@mail.ru says... > > Matthew Bladen wrote: > > > wrote in message > > > news:MPG.18687ec6789d5cf5989760@news.mtu-net.ru... > > > > > > [snip] > > > I don't think this possibility ever occurred to Tolkien, which is a pity -- > > > it > > > has a lot to do with one of his major themes, the nature and power of > > > story-telling, and it would have enabled him to preserve his older work and > > > not attempt an essentially destructive process of rewriting that probably > > > stopped him from ever finishing the Silmarillion. > > > > Even Eru has limitations on his means imposed by his grand plan. > > Depriving people of the memory of the Flat world is like ridding them of > > history and the right to remember the Good and the Evil of the first two > > ages. > > > > And the author, too, as a sub-creator is bound by his earlier thoughts. > > So: > Aragorn is Trotter the Hobbit with wooden feet? > Dwarves are actually evil? > Eonwe is Fionwe and the son of Manwe? > Gothmog is the son of Morgoth? > I could go on... You forgot to mention that Sauron is Tevildo. ;-) The point is that late writings are an attempt to improve the mythology by putting in all the spare ideas Tolkien had (like pizza). That was a mistake, since a bird in the hand is worth five in the sky. One man has only one life, and to harness one's hubris and perfectionism would do a lot more good to Tolkien. In this regard the BoLT is qualitatively different from QS. The interwoven net of semantic links from one chapter to another and back again is weak in the BoLT but rather dense in QS/LQS. And Tolkien ought to have realised that he had no strength to redo his mythology, starting from the very beginning. Unfortunately, he didn't. Archie ###### Message-ID: <3E029A7F.EBBF2841@gapingvoid.org> From: pHotEK X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:23:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.102.150.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1040358215 24.102.150.24 (Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:23:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:23:35 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!c03.atl99!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!newsfeeds-atl01!newsfeeds-atl2!news.webusenet.com!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:103691 Glenn Holliday wrote: > > Galadriel also says he is counted wisest of Elves. That is a > strange statement, since being among the Wise usually comes as > a result of spending time with the Valar. Yet Celeborn is > clearly not Noldor, and it appears he never saw the Light of > the Trees. If he were part of the Return of the Noldor, then > he would be approximately of the same generation as Galadriel. > The evidence seems to be against that, so I find it very curious > that the Noldor count Celeborn wiser than any of them. > One explanation that fits is that Celeborn was, indeed, in > the Awakening. I believe that would make him the only Elf > remaining in Middle Earth who remembers the Awakening. That > is a pedigree that might cause the Wise to count him as the > wisest. Personally, I find it romantic and attractive to > think that there is one of the Awakening who still remains. > Didn't she say "wisest of the elves *of Middle-Earth*"? That would leave out the majority of the elves that had been in Valinor, that were still around in Middle-Earth, I think? (Trying to remember where that's from, exactly...) ###### Message-ID: <3E0752D6.1B18FF8A@acm.org> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:15:51 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn and Galadriel References: <20021212231714.27493.00000003@mb-bk.aol.com> <6eljvuk71vcqllt3pbh2lte3ssq22g09uq@4ax.com> <3DFA9DBD.32CB0922@acm.org> <3DFD0B9C.8F8EE046@acm.org> <3E029A7F.EBBF2841@gapingvoid.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.222 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1040667464 7664 207.199.164.222 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:104750 pHotEK wrote: > > Glenn Holliday wrote: > > > > > Galadriel also says he is counted wisest of Elves. That is a > > strange statement, since being among the Wise usually comes as > > a result of spending time with the Valar. Yet Celeborn is > > Didn't she say "wisest of the elves *of Middle-Earth*"? That would leave > out the majority of the elves that had been in Valinor, that were still > around in Middle-Earth, I think? (Trying to remember where that's from, > exactly...) I see what you're saying - that "of Middle-Earth" includes only those born there. That interpretation would trim the field some, and you could be right. I wouldn't interpret it that way, which is why I didn't quote that far into Galadriel's comment. I didn't think that qualification mattered. The dialogue is in FOTR, "The Mirror of Galadriel", the first interview with Galadriel and Celeborn. Galadriel contradicts Celeborn, and adds that comment as if to emphasize that she rarely has to correct the poor dear :-) -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org