From: rorowe501@netscape.net (RoRowe) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Sam's Sword Date: 18 Nov 2002 15:43:36 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.206.187.100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1037663016 25589 127.0.0.1 (18 Nov 2002 23:43:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 2002 23:43:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99742 Could someone please tell me, did Sam get one of the Elven swords from the Barrow Downs? If so, did he keep it all the way to Mount Doom? I know Sam took Sting from Frodo when Sam thought Frodo was dead. At that point, Sam carried two swords until he found Frodo alive in the tower of Cirith Ungol. Later Frodo gave Sting to Sam as they approached the mountain. From that point, Frodo wore no sword. Did Sam still carry two, or only Sting? I know Sam and Frodo threw away some of their gear. But I can't imagine Sam throwing away an Elven sword. ###### From: Jim Muller Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:10:48 -0500 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYin8bZKILZTJTwfkQ3JtS5h4sihZbczHzI20xUB+1mP0y3WHVCRIjq X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2002 00:10:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99743 On 18 Nov 2002 15:43:36 -0800, rorowe501@netscape.net (RoRowe) wrote: >Could someone please tell me, did Sam get one of the Elven swords from >the Barrow Downs? If so, did he keep it all the way to Mount Doom? As I recall, Sam did get a sword at the Barrow Downs and he did keep it all the way to MD. I think he even used it in MOria. Certainly Frodo used Sting in Moria because someone (I don't recall who) commented on the quality of the blade when he managed to cut someone/something that no one else could. >Did Sam still carry two, or only Sting? Don't recall exactly, but Sting was later placed in Michel Delving, wasn't it? So he must have carried it. Only Frodo's Elven cloak and Mithril coat were taken and presented to the Captains at the Morannon, I believe. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword Date: 19 Nov 2002 00:18:11 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 20 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99721 RoRowe wrote: : Could someone please tell me, did Sam get one of the Elven swords from : the Barrow Downs? If so, did he keep it all the way to Mount Doom? I : know Sam took Sting from Frodo when Sam thought Frodo was dead. At : that point, Sam carried two swords until he found Frodo alive in the : tower of Cirith Ungol. : Later Frodo gave Sting to Sam as they approached the mountain. From : that point, Frodo wore no sword. Did Sam still carry two, or only : Sting? I know Sam and Frodo threw away some of their gear. But I can't : imagine Sam throwing away an Elven sword. When Sam thought Frodo was dead, he left his Barrow sword by Frodo's side and took Sting. Sam's sword ended up in the hands of the Mouth of Sauron, and was the blade of the downfallen west that he mentioned. By the way, Sam's sword was not Elvish. Stephen ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword Date: 19 Nov 2002 02:24:57 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6uof8me4gm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1037669097 1991 10.0.3.2 (19 Nov 2002 01:24:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2002 01:24:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99747 stephen@nomail.com writes: > When Sam thought Frodo was dead, he left his Barrow sword > by Frodo's side and took Sting. Sam's sword ended up > in the hands of the Mouth of Sauron, and was the > blade of the downfallen west that he mentioned. And together with the Mouth only knowing of one "spy", this being Sams sword most likely pointed out to Gandalf that maybe Sam had been cought and Frodo was still free (the mithril mail was Frodos, but he would have no reason to swap Sting with Sam). Something the Mouth in his triumphant behaviour most likely did not notice. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1037679886 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:24:46 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:24:46 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: i2jC9-13125-P4-9786@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 65ec0526 52df11d5 c5c27220 8577070d 464569b1 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:24:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99805 Quoth rorowe501@netscape.net (RoRowe) in article : > Could someone please tell me, did Sam get one of the Elven swords > from the Barrow Downs? All four hobbits got swords from the Barrow Downs (but they were made by the Dunedain, not by Elves). Frodo's was shattered by the Witch King at the Ford, Merry's perished after piercing that same dreadful King, Pippin seems to have kept his throughout (though he may have let go of it when the troll he killed fell on him), and Sam, well, see below. :) > If so, did he keep it all the way to Mount Doom? I know Sam took > Sting from Frodo when Sam thought Frodo was dead. At that point, Sam > carried two swords until he found Frodo alive in the tower of Cirith > Ungol. Not so. Sam laid his sword by Frodo's side when he chose to complete the quest by himself and kept only Sting for himself. That sword, together with Frodo's mithril coat and Elvish cloak, was displayed to Gandalf and the others at the Black Gate as proof that "the" spy had been caught. Gandalf seized them back, and presumably returned them to their owners when he had the chance. > I know Sam and Frodo threw away some of their gear. But I can't > imagine Sam throwing away an Elven sword. No? He even threw his cooking gear! If he could part with that, I think he could part with anything. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: Elaine Thompson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:32:44 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-264.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99748 On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:24:46 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Not so. Sam laid his sword by Frodo's side when he chose to complete >the quest by himself and kept only Sting for himself. That sword, >together with Frodo's mithril coat and Elvish cloak, was displayed to >Gandalf and the others at the Black Gate as proof that "the" spy had >been caught. Gandalf seized them back, and presumably returned them >to their owners when he had the chance. At the Field of Cormallen, after their honoring, before the feast in the evening. But Sam's cooking gear was gone for good. -- Elaine Thompson ###### From: geoduck@webave.com (Geoduck) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:07:49 GMT Organization: Geoducks Forever Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3dda8ae7.12069607@nnrp.atgi.net> References: Reply-To: geoduck@webave.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 64-42-74-116.atgi.net X-Trace: nnrp.atgi.net 1037732972 2911 64.42.74.116 (19 Nov 2002 19:09:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@atgi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:09:32 +0000 (UTC) Keywords: fnord X-Face: ^w`SR8R8?8Zj:n/X;4k-#NX(z?)JQ`&py16%}'likbP2~n^dxk4r3ci++#l6-8`.3m]^w\%*T4m;a2N0Q$S_]U>,V{lKBmvTzE'+xpbNElX<%89xC`s>ty8lA|&W&euaUOKa8rbdZ5v#[9\jr7_k(RpcZ\._FqT&NZKN*j_`s%I53git X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!HSNX.atgi.net!nnrp.atgi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99762 On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:10:48 -0500, Jim Muller wrote: >On 18 Nov 2002 15:43:36 -0800, rorowe501@netscape.net (RoRowe) wrote: > >>Could someone please tell me, did Sam get one of the Elven swords from >>the Barrow Downs? If so, did he keep it all the way to Mount Doom? > >As I recall, Sam did get a sword at the Barrow Downs and he did keep >it all the way to MD. I think he even used it in MOria. Certainly >Frodo used Sting in Moria because someone (I don't recall who) >commented on the quality of the blade when he managed to cut >someone/something that no one else could. He stabs the troll in the foot as it trys to break down the door in Balin's tomb. I think it's the only time in the entire story that Frodo attacks someone with it. (Although he threatens Gollum with it later.) And Sam uses his sword to kill an Orc in the same fight. >>Did Sam still carry two, or only Sting? > >Don't recall exactly, but Sting was later placed in Michel Delving, >wasn't it? So he must have carried it. Only Frodo's Elven cloak and >Mithril coat were taken and presented to the Captains at the Morannon, >I believe. Sam takes Sting and leaves his sword behind when he thinks that Frodo has died. The Mouth of Sauron later mentions it at the Gate, 'blade of the downfallen west' or somesuch. The supplemental notes may say what Sting's final fate was, but the book itself doesn't. -- Geoduck http://www.olywa.net/cook ###### From: geoduck@webave.com (Geoduck) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:09:55 GMT Organization: Geoducks Forever Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3dda8c49.12423322@nnrp.atgi.net> References: <6uof8me4gm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: geoduck@webave.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 64-42-74-116.atgi.net X-Trace: nnrp.atgi.net 1037733098 2911 64.42.74.116 (19 Nov 2002 19:11:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@atgi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:11:38 +0000 (UTC) Keywords: fnord X-Face: ^w`SR8R8?8Zj:n/X;4k-#NX(z?)JQ`&py16%}'likbP2~n^dxk4r3ci++#l6-8`.3m]^w\%*T4m;a2N0Q$S_]U>,V{lKBmvTzE'+xpbNElX<%89xC`s>ty8lA|&W&euaUOKa8rbdZ5v#[9\jr7_k(RpcZ\._FqT&NZKN*j_`s%I53git X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!HSNX.atgi.net!nnrp.atgi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99759 On 19 Nov 2002 02:24:57 +0100, Neil Franklin wrote: >stephen@nomail.com writes: > >> When Sam thought Frodo was dead, he left his Barrow sword >> by Frodo's side and took Sting. Sam's sword ended up >> in the hands of the Mouth of Sauron, and was the >> blade of the downfallen west that he mentioned. > >And together with the Mouth only knowing of one "spy", this being Sams >sword most likely pointed out to Gandalf that maybe Sam had been cought >and Frodo was still free (the mithril mail was Frodos, but he would >have no reason to swap Sting with Sam). Something the Mouth in his >triumphant behaviour most likely did not notice. Yes. Gandalf was very careful to say 'in memory of our *friend*' when he took the things from the Mouth. -- Geoduck http://www.olywa.net/cook ###### From: Elaine Thompson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:30:48 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3dda8ae7.12069607@nnrp.atgi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-070.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.telebyte.nl!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99906 On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:07:49 GMT, geoduck@webave.com (Geoduck) wrote: >Sam takes Sting and leaves his sword behind when he thinks that Frodo >has died. The Mouth of Sauron later mentions it at the Gate, 'blade of >the downfallen west' or somesuch. The supplemental notes may say what >Sting's final fate was, but the book itself doesn't. Yes it does, Frodo gets it back at the Field of Cormallen, along with the dwarf-coat and elf-cloak, and Sam gets back his 'blade of the downfallen west." There's a bit of back and forth "I gave it to you, Sam" "But it's yours, Mr. F...." -- Elaine Thompson ###### From: Jim Muller Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:19:45 -0500 Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYPBXb6ExCdzlE0ZMQj4qmuzgwIYIcn/tDfq+13vfo16cFOt5sxlH8e X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2002 02:19:46 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:100019 On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:24:46 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >No? He even threw his cooking gear! If he could part with that, I >think he could part with anything. :) I checked it quickly last night. In one passage Sam specifically says he isn't going to leave a sword (in this case, Sting) when he is throwing away stuff. Sam notes how Gollum had found something else (orc armor?) and he doesn't wan't Gollum to find a sword and use it on them. (It is doubtful that Gollum would be able to handle an Elven sword anyway, but Sam wouldn 't necessarily think of that.) ###### From: geoduck@webave.com (Geoduck) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam's Sword Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:18:52 GMT Organization: Geoducks Forever Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3ddbd1df.9246573@nnrp.atgi.net> References: <3dda8ae7.12069607@nnrp.atgi.net> Reply-To: geoduck@webave.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 64-42-61-2.atgi.net X-Trace: nnrp.atgi.net 1037816437 808 64.42.61.2 (20 Nov 2002 18:20:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@atgi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:20:37 +0000 (UTC) Keywords: fnord X-Face: ^w`SR8R8?8Zj:n/X;4k-#NX(z?)JQ`&py16%}'likbP2~n^dxk4r3ci++#l6-8`.3m]^w\%*T4m;a2N0Q$S_]U>,V{lKBmvTzE'+xpbNElX<%89xC`s>ty8lA|&W&euaUOKa8rbdZ5v#[9\jr7_k(RpcZ\._FqT&NZKN*j_`s%I53git X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!nnrp.atgi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99925 On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:30:48 -0800, Elaine Thompson wrote: >On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:07:49 GMT, geoduck@webave.com (Geoduck) wrote: > >>Sam takes Sting and leaves his sword behind when he thinks that Frodo >>has died. The Mouth of Sauron later mentions it at the Gate, 'blade of >>the downfallen west' or somesuch. The supplemental notes may say what >>Sting's final fate was, but the book itself doesn't. > > >Yes it does, Frodo gets it back at the Field of Cormallen, along with >the dwarf-coat and elf-cloak, and Sam gets back his 'blade of the >downfallen west." There's a bit of back and forth "I gave it to you, >Sam" "But it's yours, Mr. F...." Yes, I meant at the very end of the story; does Frodo take it with him across the sea, or leave it with Sam? -- Geoduck http://www.olywa.net/cook