From: Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:29:31 +0000 (UTC) Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp133-57.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1037399371 69185 62.118.133.57 (15 Nov 2002 22:29:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:29:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NewsPro163f Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!any.msu.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99358 Javier Caselli wrote: >"Pradera" escribió en el mensaje >news:Xns92C7957E21DApraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4... >> On 14 lis 2002, Georg Schönegger scribbled loosely: >> [...] >It is generally known that a medieval european sword is no match for a >katana, in terms on quality of the blade (Some families still keep as >treasures blades hundreds of years old in an impresive state of >conservation, and as razor sharp as when they were made) and ease of use. >It is true however that Samurais used leather armors, thus, the need of >razor sharp blades was evident, while as it's been pointed out already in >the thread, the improvement in metal armors in europe concluded in the use >of swords for stabbing rathet than for slashing. Europe was sitting on its hindmost parts till a certain monk "invented" (or re-invented, to be correct) gunpowder. All that brings us to a question. Who was the best sword-smith of Arda? Possible suggestions include Feanor, Eol, Celebrimbor, Telchar, his teacher (I forgot his name, sorry), Elves of Imladris (Elrond???)... Anybody I left out? Archie ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 15 Nov 2002 22:37:16 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037399836 15884247 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99378 On 15 lis 2002, scribbled loosely: > > All that brings us to a question. Who was the best sword-smith of > Arda? Possible suggestions include Feanor, Eol, Celebrimbor, Telchar, > his teacher (I forgot his name, sorry), Elves of Imladris > (Elrond???)... Anybody I left out? > > Melkor...and his best student, Feanor's father-in-law (I hope I remember this correctly). -- Pradera --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 16 Nov 2002 02:22:16 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 62 Message-ID: <6u65uys3zr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1037409739 730 10.0.3.2 (16 Nov 2002 01:22:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2002 01:22:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99382 writes: > Javier Caselli wrote: > >It is generally known that a medieval european sword Given that "medieval" ranges from roughly 500 (fall of Rome) to 1500 (renaissance) which gives one millennium and over 1000s of miles distance and over cultures ranging from barbarian and desintegrating roman empire to feudalism, swords have varied _a_lot_ in that time. Both in design and quality and techniques (manufacturing and use). Any such sweeping statement is bound to be wrong. > >is no match for a > >katana, in terms on quality of the blade (Some families still keep as > >treasures blades hundreds of years old in an impresive state of > >conservation, and as razor sharp as when they were made) and ease of use. Same applies to some of the better medieval swords. Some of the best are capable of cutting metal armor. Even same manufacturing technology (many times folding, which produces lots of thin layers of different metal composition (alloy elements), allowing hard and elastic to reinforce each other). And such technology is available at lots of time points, not just at the end. Not to mention that Aikido (the original with-sword styles, not todays unarmed stuff) has a good chance of being imported to Japan from Europe (it is near identical to Thalhoffer, which predates it). Actually triggering (or at least contributing to) the development of the katana. > >It is true however that Samurais used leather armors, thus, the need of > >razor sharp blades was evident, And cutting metal requires just as much sharpness. If not more. > Europe was sitting on its hindmost parts Actually the medieval times saw quite a few technical inventions. The romans may have made great water systems, but slaves were cheaper than machinery to them. Getting rid of slavery spurned technological development quite a bit. > till a certain monk "invented" (or > re-invented, to be correct) gunpowder. Huh? Gunpowder was inferior to archery up until the mid-1800s (!) invention of reloading rifles. Both the USA revolutionaries and Napoleon would have preferred archers, if they had just been able to get an adequate supply of good boyers and fletchers. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 16 Nov 2002 08:48:35 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037436515 15375406 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99439 On 16 lis 2002, Tamim scribbled loosely: >> Melkor...and his best student, Feanor's father-in-law (I hope I >> remember this correctly). > > You don't. It was Aule and his student, Feanor's father in law Mahtan. > But AFAIK F‰anor surpassed his teachers and even Melkor was envious of > him. > Ah, I reread the passage and see where I'm wrong. Yes, Aule taught Mahtan metalworking, and Melkor taught Feanor weaponsmithy. So Melkor still stays there as a candidate. -- Pradera --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 16 Nov 2002 11:15:52 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1037445352 9592 128.214.205.14 (16 Nov 2002 11:15:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2002 11:15:52 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99415 In alt.fan.tolkien Pradera wrote: > On 16 lis 2002, Tamim scribbled loosely: >>> Melkor...and his best student, Feanor's father-in-law (I hope I >>> remember this correctly). >> >> You don't. It was Aule and his student, Feanor's father in law Mahtan. >> But AFAIK F‰anor surpassed his teachers and even Melkor was envious of >> him. >> > Ah, I reread the passage and see where I'm wrong. Yes, Aule taught Mahtan > metalworking, And Mahtan isntructed Fëanor. > and Melkor taught Feanor weaponsmithy. Nope: "But the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them; and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard. Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in his lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared though he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no counsel from him" > So Melkor still stays there as a candidate. I'd say so too ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 16 Nov 2002 11:45:18 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037447118 15411431 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99438 On 16 lis 2002, Tamim scribbled loosely: > >> and Melkor taught Feanor weaponsmithy. > > Nope: > > "But the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge that he could > reveal to them; and some hearkened to words that it would have been > better for them never to have heard. Melkor indeed declared afterwards > that F‰anor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been > instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in his > lust and his envy, for none of the Eldali‰ ever hated Melkor more than > F‰anor son of Finw‰, who first named him Morgoth; and snared though he > was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no > converse with him and took no counsel from him" > > 'And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak, for each believed that he alone had received the warning. And F?anor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned of Aul?.' Where did Feanor learn all these things from? Maybe not directly from Melkor, but the influence was there. -- Pradera --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 16 Nov 2002 12:48:01 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1037450881 13166 128.214.205.14 (16 Nov 2002 12:48:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2002 12:48:01 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99418 In alt.fan.tolkien Pradera wrote: >> > 'And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride > and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning > weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and > axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many > houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore > abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak, for each believed that > he alone had received the warning. And F?anor made a secret forge, of > which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for > himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red. > Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of > Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned of Aul?.' > Where did Feanor learn all these things from? Maybe not directly from > Melkor, but the influence was there. Of course the influence was there but that doesn't mean that Melkor taught him. As the passage you quote said, Fëanor learnt metalwork from Mahtan. When the lies (and truths) of Melkor reached his ears he made weapons. He might have learned the art of for forging weapons from somebody, who had learnt it from somebody, who had learnt it from Melkor. OTOH there might not be any need for teaching, once you see what a sword looks like and you are an adept metalsmith, I don't think you would need very much teaching to make a sword. ###### From: Andy Cooke Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:32:52 +0000 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3DD65714.8BE5654E@hotmail.com> References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> Reply-To: cooke_adrian@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.116.235 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 1037457120 26910 217.134.116.235 (16 Nov 2002 14:32:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2002 14:32:00 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99388 put-the-no-mail-out-archimedes99@mail.ru wrote: > [snip] > All that brings us to a question. Who was the best sword-smith of Arda? > Possible suggestions include Feanor, Eol, Celebrimbor, Telchar, his teacher > (I forgot his name, sorry), Gamil Zirak, IIRC. -- Andy Cooke ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> <6u65uys3zr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.75.124 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1037463255 213.101.75.124 (Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:14:15 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:14:15 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-75-124.swipnet.se Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:16:45 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99406 "Neil Franklin" wrote: [snip] > Actually the medieval times saw quite a few technical inventions. The > romans may have made great water systems, but slaves were cheaper than > machinery to them. Getting rid of slavery spurned technological > development quite a bit. During the Middle Ages, Europeans invented the windmill, the sluice, the wheelbarrow, the stirrup, optometrics, the wheel plough, crop rotation, the crossbow and many other useful things. (Though the sluice and the crossbow were possibly early importations from the Chinese.) Incidentally, they also built on Aristotle's writings on logic (which had been translated into Latin before a knowledge of Greek became a great rarity) and improved on it a lot. Even today, many of the tools of logic in use were first introduced or refined by medieval thinkers. > > till a certain monk "invented" (or > > re-invented, to be correct) gunpowder. > > Huh? Gunpowder was inferior to archery up until the mid-1800s (!) > invention of reloading rifles. Both the USA revolutionaries and > Napoleon would have preferred archers, if they had just been able to > get an adequate supply of good boyers and fletchers. In general, the soldiers only had the time to fore two or three salvos before they were so close that the fight man to man began. That is why the bayonette was invented. Öjevind ###### Reply-To: "Noldor" From: "Noldor" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:09:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.181.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1037502554 63.14.181.107 (Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:09:14 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:09:14 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn14feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!207.217.77.102!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99472 wrote in message news:ar3sga$23i1$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru... > All that brings us to a question. Who was the best sword-smith of Arda? > Possible suggestions include Feanor, Eol, Celebrimbor, Telchar, his teacher > (I forgot his name, sorry), Elves of Imladris (Elrond???)... Anybody I left out? From UT: "Now Thingol had in Menegroth deep armouries filled with great wealth of weapons: metal wrought like fishes' mail and shinning like water in the moon; swords and axes, shields and helms, wrought by Telchar himself or by his master Gamil Zirak the old, or by elven-wrights more skillful still. For some things he had received in gift that came out of Valinor and were wrought by Feanor in his mastery, than whom no crafstman was greater in all the days of the world." -Matthew- ###### From: JXStern Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Message-ID: <476etus8qc25qbpr1e0dh88ega6m23m06a@4ax.com> References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> <6u65uys3zr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:22:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.121.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc03.gnilink.net 1037506966 4.62.121.38 (Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:22:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:22:46 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc03.gnilink.net.POSTED!4fcf30b0!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99526 On 16 Nov 2002 02:22:16 +0100, Neil Franklin wrote: >Same applies to some of the better medieval swords. Some of the best >are capable of cutting metal armor. Even same manufacturing technology >(many times folding, which produces lots of thin layers of different >metal composition (alloy elements), allowing hard and elastic to >reinforce each other). That would be the Damascus sword. J. ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 17 Nov 2002 13:48:42 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> <6u65uys3zr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <476etus8qc25qbpr1e0dh88ega6m23m06a@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037540922 16773219 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99542 On 17 lis 2002, JXStern scribbled loosely: >>Same applies to some of the better medieval swords. Some of the best >>are capable of cutting metal armor. Even same manufacturing technology >>(many times folding, which produces lots of thin layers of different >>metal composition (alloy elements), allowing hard and elastic to >>reinforce each other). > > That would be the Damascus sword. > Is damascene steel really equivalent to well-made katana? How many layers are there in a damascene blade? There are 32-65,000 layers for outer steel and 1000 layers for inner steel in katana blade. Plus, japanese steel was usually superior, as it has lots of meteoric iron present in it... -- Pradera --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:00:54 -0600 From: paulh Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:00:51 +1100 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> <6u65uys3zr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <476etus8qc25qbpr1e0dh88ega6m23m06a@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 X-Trace: sv3-j2S4JgenC/zmoQZZZ8vmmFu8PnO6aXCj+zQVpG5fMqGv/75ohYGJd2XPzNHzBvT1LxBdHMX/rrwVMMf!vMVTGfUFn5hg0AKdqzzO5lNXxH+ufakQc5auK4jzZmfDsJlVySFta4vxrr/7AJU3Q6fWSow= X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99460 On 17 Nov 2002 13:48:42 GMT, Pradera wrote: >On 17 lis 2002, JXStern scribbled loosely: > >>>Same applies to some of the better medieval swords. Some of the best >>>are capable of cutting metal armor. Even same manufacturing technology >>>(many times folding, which produces lots of thin layers of different >>>metal composition (alloy elements), allowing hard and elastic to >>>reinforce each other). >> >> That would be the Damascus sword. >> > >Is damascene steel really equivalent to well-made katana? How many layers >are there in a damascene blade? There are 32-65,000 layers for outer steel >and 1000 layers for inner steel in katana blade. Plus, japanese steel was >usually superior, as it has lots of meteoric iron present in it... all rather academic to the one you've just skewered.. paulh ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 18 Nov 2002 01:13:27 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 58 Message-ID: <6u7kfbvioo.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> <6u65uys3zr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <476etus8qc25qbpr1e0dh88ega6m23m06a@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1037578408 1181 10.0.3.2 (18 Nov 2002 00:13:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 2002 00:13:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99548 Pradera writes: > On 17 lis 2002, JXStern scribbled loosely: > > >>Same applies to some of the better medieval swords. Some of the best > >>are capable of cutting metal armor. Even same manufacturing technology > >>(many times folding, which produces lots of thin layers of different > >>metal composition (alloy elements), allowing hard and elastic to > >>reinforce each other). > > > > That would be the Damascus sword. The speciality of the damascene sword is apparently not the actual folding (which was standard technology then) but the accidental use of metal from one specific mine in India, which had exactly the right impurities (in particular Vanadium) in its iron, that combined with an process then discovered delivered its famed power. For details see an analysis in the Journal of Metallurgy: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html "The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades" > Is damascene steel really equivalent to well-made katana? How many layers > are there in a damascene blade? AFAIK the damascene was less layered than the katana. The material used seems to have been the trick. And also the reason it disappeard once the particular mine(s) was/were depleted. > There are 32-65,000 layers for outer steel 15 or 16 foldings. > and 1000 layers for inner steel in katana blade. 10 foldings. How do they do different amounts for the 2 steels? First fold the outer for 5 or 6 times few times, then add the inner and fold further? And what are the features of the 2 materials used? > Plus, japanese steel was > usually superior, as it has lots of meteoric iron present in it... Hmmm. I have heard exact the opposite. That the Japanaees had lots of trouble with impurities in their local iron sources. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 18 Nov 2002 09:18:45 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> <6u65uys3zr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <476etus8qc25qbpr1e0dh88ega6m23m06a@4ax.com> <6u7kfbvioo.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037611125 17538315 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99678 On 18 lis 2002, Neil Franklin scribbled loosely: > >> There are 32-65,000 layers for outer steel > > 15 or 16 foldings. > > >> and 1000 layers for inner steel in katana blade. > > 10 foldings. > Damn, you make it look so less impressive ;) > How do they do different amounts for the 2 steels? First fold the > outer for 5 or 6 times few times, then add the inner and fold further? > > And what are the features of the 2 materials used? > The inner steel has lower percentage of coal than outer (0,5% and 1,5% respectively) And that's just the simplest way. In shihozume style, blade was made of five different kinds of steel (all different hardness) for five parts of the blade. I lack in proper terminology in english, so I can't elaborate much, I'm afraid. AFAICT, each part was folded separately, and then they were all smithied together, folding once to form the final blade (like two pieces of paper) There's this site on japanese swords, but I haven't yet check it out fully (I get my info from books), you might want to browse it: http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm -- Pradera --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 18 Nov 2002 09:07:23 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0211180907.532d72bd@posting.google.com> References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> <6u65uys3zr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.146.85.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1037639243 26382 127.0.0.1 (18 Nov 2002 17:07:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 2002 17:07:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99664 " jevind L ng" wrote in message news:... > > During the Middle Ages, Europeans invented the windmill, the sluice, the > wheelbarrow, the stirrup, optometrics, the wheel plough, crop rotation, the > crossbow and many other useful things. (Though the sluice and the crossbow > were possibly early importations from the Chinese.) IIRC, the Chinese invented crossbows first. I'm not sure but it's possible that the crossbow was introduced to Europe via the silk trade. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who's the best sword-smith? [Was: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword?] Date: 18 Nov 2002 23:54:13 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 64 Message-ID: <6usmxyebfu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> <6u65uys3zr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <476etus8qc25qbpr1e0dh88ega6m23m06a@4ax.com> <6u7kfbvioo.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1037660054 1477 10.0.3.2 (18 Nov 2002 22:54:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 2002 22:54:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99695 Pradera writes: > On 18 lis 2002, Neil Franklin scribbled > loosely: > > >> There are 32-65,000 layers for outer steel > > > > 15 or 16 foldings. > > > > > >> and 1000 layers for inner steel in katana blade. > > > > 10 foldings. > > > Damn, you make it look so less impressive ;) Given that each single folding step is a multi-hour process... - heat and flattening out - head 2nd putting the "v" cut in (often done by 2 man) - heat 3rd and getting rid of oxidation - fold - head 4th and weld (requires very high temperature, so possibly in sections) - possibly do the high temperatue bit twice to ensure no delaminating now repeat that 10 or more times So, hope it looks a bit more impressive now :-) > > How do they do different amounts for the 2 steels? First fold the > > outer for 5 or 6 times few times, then add the inner and fold further? > > > > And what are the features of the 2 materials used? > > > The inner steel has lower percentage of coal than outer (0,5% and 1,5% > respectively) Hmmm so an 5 to 6 times fording of 1.5% steel which welds badly. And then only adding in the 0.5% which makes welding simpler. > I lack in proper terminology in english, so I can't elaborate much, I'm > afraid. AFAICT, each part was folded separately, and then they were all > smithied together, folding once to form the final blade (like two pieces > of paper) Hmm, sounds in danger of delaminating to me. I suppose that translates into "ery difficult to do propperly". > There's this site on japanese swords, but I haven't yet check it out > fully (I get my info from books), you might want to browse it: > > http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm Thanks for the tip. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today?