From: Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:16:27 +0000 (UTC) Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp134-187.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1037240187 50496 62.118.134.187 (14 Nov 2002 02:16:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:16:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NewsPro163f Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.sovam.com!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:98901 Does anybody have any idea of the origins of Theoden's sword (TTT, "The King of the Golden Hall")? Does it go back to the Third Age or Second Age? Whose make is it? And what does the name mean ? (is it Northern Mannish or Sindarin?) Last, but not least: is it a frequently answered question? If so, you can make those loathsome sounds (google, google) and I won't be offended. Archie ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: 14 Nov 2002 14:32:01 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037284321 15021082 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99084 On 14 lis 2002, scribbled loosely: > > Does anybody have any idea of the origins of Theoden's sword > (TTT, "The King of the Golden Hall")? Does it go back to the Third Age > or Second Age? Whose make is it? And what does the name mean ? > (is it Northern Mannish or Sindarin?) > > Last, but not least: is it a frequently answered question? If so, you > can make those loathsome sounds (google, google) and I won't be > offended. > > I'd say it's 'just' a king's sword. It is possible that it has some longer lineage, but I'm not sure how long would it be effective, if it was just a man-made sword (no magic or special skills) - a few generations... And I'm not sure if there would be any artifacts from pre- Helm time left in Edoras. (how long did the early medieval swords stay sharp and useful?) -- Pradera --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### Message-ID: <3DD3CE09.B2E47BD8@aon.at> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:23:37 +0100 From: Georg =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6negger?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [de] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: M364P018.adsl.highway.telekom.at X-Trace: 1037290949 newsreader01.highway.telekom.at 24540 62.47.213.114 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!news.telebyte.nl!news.salzburg-online.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.highway.telekom.at!newsreader01.highway.telekom.at!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99087 > (how long did the early medieval swords stay sharp and useful?) > > -- > Pradera there were quite different qualities, but swords which were in regulary use and good repair could last maybe five years (in those times there was not much armour around). it depends if the blade gets a notch you can't hone away. note that usually only the blade was replaced. later, as armour came into use, swords were used more for stabbing than for slashing; some of them were not blades any more; rather a kind of spike. those must have lasted longer, i suppose. georg ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:09:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99031 In article <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > > While its possible it was made by the dwarves for a Mannish King, it is > unlikely its a Dwarf Sword in the same way that Glamdring was and Elvish > blade. Dwarves are small people, you see and Theoden was a tall chap. But a Dwarf originally forged Narsil (the later Anduril). -- AC ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: 14 Nov 2002 09:44:21 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0211140944.4fcdaa44@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.146.85.123 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1037295861 15151 127.0.0.1 (14 Nov 2002 17:44:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 2002 17:44:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99075 wrote in message news:... > Does anybody have any idea of the origins of Theoden's sword > (TTT, "The King of the Golden Hall")? Does it go back to the Third Age > or Second Age? Whose make is it? And what does the name mean ? > (is it Northern Mannish or Sindarin?) I think the name is Anglo-Saxon (I'm not sure though). > Last, but not least: is it a frequently answered question? I've never seen it before. ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: 14 Nov 2002 18:41:28 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3DD3CE09.B2E47BD8@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037299288 14486319 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99092 On 14 lis 2002, Georg Schönegger scribbled loosely: >> (how long did the early medieval swords stay sharp and useful?) >> >> -- >> Pradera > > there were quite different qualities, but swords which were in regulary > use and good repair could last maybe five years (in those times there > was not much armour around). it depends if the blade gets a notch you > can't hone away. > > note that usually only the blade was replaced. > > Thank you. So, basically, we can asume that if it wasn't a magical blade, it was simply what it was called - Theoden's sword (with replacable blade?). Nothing more, nothing less. -- Pradera --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### Message-ID: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:15:03 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.134.140 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1037279516 194.125.134.140 (Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:11:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:11:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:98870 put-the-no-mail-out-archimedes99@mail.ru wrote: > > Does anybody have any idea of the origins of Theoden's sword > (TTT, "The King of the Golden Hall")? Does it go back to the Third Age > or Second Age? Whose make is it? And what does the name mean ? > (is it Northern Mannish or Sindarin?) > > Last, but not least: is it a frequently answered question? If so, you can make > those loathsome sounds (google, google) and I won't be offended. > > Archie While its possible it was made by the dwarves for a Mannish King, it is unlikely its a Dwarf Sword in the same way that Glamdring was and Elvish blade. Dwarves are small people, you see and Theoden was a tall chap. HTH M. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: 14 Nov 2002 23:25:27 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 59 Message-ID: <6ur8dnokko.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3DD3CE09.B2E47BD8@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1037312730 520 10.0.3.2 (14 Nov 2002 22:25:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 2002 22:25:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99107 Georg Schönegger writes: > > (how long did the early medieval swords stay sharp and useful?) > > there were quite different qualities, but swords which were in regulary > use and good repair could last maybe five years (in those times there > was not much armour around) Way longer. According to the professional Aikido and Thalhoffer instruktor I learned Thalhoffer (15th century) fencing from, there exists an actual archeologocal object, a sword made in the 800s or 900s which was re-fitted with an new handle in the 1500s, so that it was better usable with the newer fighting styles. Note that this is more duel fighting (no armor and the consequent sword damage), not warfare. So it seems that the cost saving from not making an new blade was larger that the fighting value loss from re-using an over 500 year old blade. > it depends if the blade gets a notch you > can't hone away. Which should be avoided by proper fighting style anyway. A hit that can make a notch, can also mean immediate sword breakage. And then you face unarmed an still armed opponenent. So trained fighting styles were optimised to prevent such damaging. And of course blade iron is a lot better than even plate armor iron (and maile is totally inferior), due to the way it is processed (many times folding), which done properly amounts to the same sort of effects as modern micro-alloys do (but at lot higher work time cost). > note that usually only the blade was replaced. Or in this case a handle. As as (hobby) smith myself I can assure you that so long you stay out of heavily artistic/expensive decorated handles, the blade is the far more time expensive part of a _good_ sword. By an wide margin. > later, as armour came into use, swords were used more for stabbing than > for slashing; some of them were not blades any more; rather a kind of > spike. Actually the "spikes" (misericorde is the proper name) were usually long daggers, used to give the final kill of an wounded opponent. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:19:19 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3ac4908.0211140944.4fcdaa44@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99341 On 14 Nov 2002 09:44:21 -0800, the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) wrote: > wrote in message news:... >> Does anybody have any idea of the origins of Theoden's sword >> (TTT, "The King of the Golden Hall")? Does it go back to the Third Age >> or Second Age? Whose make is it? And what does the name mean ? >> (is it Northern Mannish or Sindarin?) > >I think the name is Anglo-Saxon (I'm not sure though). > >> Last, but not least: is it a frequently answered question? > >I've never seen it before. 'Herugrim' means approximately 'Grim Battle' in Old English. the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- I tried sniffing Coke once, but the ice cubes got stuck in my nose. ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: 14 Nov 2002 23:31:26 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3DD3CE09.B2E47BD8@aon.at> <6ur8dnokko.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037316686 15380671 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99315 On 14 lis 2002, Neil Franklin scribbled loosely: > >> later, as armour came into use, swords were used more for stabbing than >> for slashing; some of them were not blades any more; rather a kind of >> spike. > > Actually the "spikes" (misericorde is the proper name) were usually > long daggers, used to give the final kill of an wounded opponent. > > I don't think he meant misericorde. I guess he meant something which is in polish called 'koncerz' - I don't know the english name - a medium-length blade of rectangular cross-section, used by armored riders to punch through armor after they used up their lances. It was indeed only useful for stabbing. -- Pradera --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: 14 Nov 2002 23:55:08 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD4144E.7DA150C6@aon.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037318108 14499896 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99323 On 14 lis 2002, Georg Schönegger scribbled loosely: > there -have- been recounts of two handed swords actually being used > while riding, but most of these feats seem to have been accomplished by > japonese warriors. i never imagined any of the swords in lotr being a > 'bihaender' as they are called hereabouts. in fact, i never could see > the middle earth cultures as 'mediaval'. > Ummm... holding a two-handed sword by japanese is not really a 'feat' - katanas are always held this way... Or did you mean using dai-katanas while riding a horse? That would surely be impressive... Certainly I don't see any heavy two-handed swords in ME, either. It's too late an invention for ME reality, IMO. -- Pradera, Shogun-Overlord of BC --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:54:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99244 In article <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > AC wrote: >> >> In article <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >> > >> > While its possible it was made by the dwarves for a Mannish King, it is >> > unlikely its a Dwarf Sword in the same way that Glamdring was and Elvish >> > blade. Dwarves are small people, you see and Theoden was a tall chap. >> >> But a Dwarf originally forged Narsil (the later Anduril). > > Really? Is this another David Day extravaganza? > > From "The Ring Goes South" > > "The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade > was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the > rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn son of > Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor. Very bright was > that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone > redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard > and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it Andúril, Flame of > the West." > > I don't recall its lineage being a Dwarvish Blade either. Where's the > reference please? I will supply the reference tonight. From memory, the sword of Elendil was "forged by Telchar in the depths of time". Telchar was a smith of Nogrod. -- AC ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:24:52 +0000 (UTC) Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3ac4908.0211140944.4fcdaa44@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp128-237.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1037384692 53623 62.118.128.237 (15 Nov 2002 18:24:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:24:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NewsPro163f Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99137 the softrat wrote: >On 14 Nov 2002 09:44:21 -0800, the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David >Sulger) wrote: >> wrote in message news:... >>> Does anybody have any idea of the origins of Theoden's sword >>> (TTT, "The King of the Golden Hall")? Does it go back to the Third Age >>> or Second Age? Whose make is it? And what does the name mean ? >>> (is it Northern Mannish or Sindarin?) >> >>I think the name is Anglo-Saxon (I'm not sure though). >> >>> Last, but not least: is it a frequently answered question? >> >>I've never seen it before. > >'Herugrim' means approximately 'Grim Battle' in Old English. Thanks. Then, at least, we have narrowed down the origins of the sword. Since 'Herugrim' is OE/Northern Mannish it cannot be Elven work (I was almost sure of that, but one cannot exclude certain possibilities). Either it was made by the Northmen themselves (who learnt the skill from the Dwarves - "On Dwarves and Men") or by the Dwarves of Moria/Iron Hills. In either case, a non-Khuzdul name is a must. I'm afraid that we cannot establish "reliably" further details of the sword's history. There's small place even for speculation... I mean, if the sword had slain Scatha the Worm, we would surely have been told by JRRT. Given peculiar properties of dragon-slaying swords (Gurthang, Codimordax (sp?)), we may confidently rule out the idea. Archie ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:05:03 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99292 Javier Caselli wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Yet Gimli was no a tall chap, and nevertheless he carried a battle axe, I've >heard and read a few comentaries about a battle axes, but I'm yet to read >one that says that they are small. You seem to be assuming that the battle-axes carried by Dwarves Age would be identical in size to those carried by Men. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Message-ID: <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:43:45 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.205.137 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1037378440 194.125.205.137 (Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:40:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:40:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99353 AC wrote: > > In article <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > > > > While its possible it was made by the dwarves for a Mannish King, it is > > unlikely its a Dwarf Sword in the same way that Glamdring was and Elvish > > blade. Dwarves are small people, you see and Theoden was a tall chap. > > But a Dwarf originally forged Narsil (the later Anduril). Really? Is this another David Day extravaganza? From "The Ring Goes South" "The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn son of Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor. Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it Andúril, Flame of the West." I don't recall its lineage being a Dwarvish Blade either. Where's the reference please? M. ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:29:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp133-57.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1037399358 69167 62.118.133.57 (15 Nov 2002 22:29:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:29:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NewsPro163f Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99359 Stan Brown wrote: >Javier Caselli wrote in >rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Yet Gimli was no a tall chap, and nevertheless he carried a battle axe, I've >>heard and read a few comentaries about a battle axes, but I'm yet to read >>one that says that they are small. > >You seem to be assuming that the battle-axes carried by Dwarves Age >would be identical in size to those carried by Men. Dwarves fought against heavily armoured enemies (Orcs and other Dwarves). To cleave armour in combat (i.e., quickly), battle axes should be heavier and have a longer handle than a certain minimum. Gimli got his axe notched while killing an armour-clad Uruk. All that considered, I agree that Gimli's or Dain's axe could have been shorter than, for instance, Tuor's Dramborleg (he was the tallest of Men, IIRC). Archie ###### From: "John Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:17:55 -0000 Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-186-216-176-194.vip.uk.com Message-ID: <3dd65a21_2@news1.vip.uk.com> X-Trace: 16 Nov 2002 14:45:53 GMT, modem-186-216-176-194.vip.uk.com X-Report: Report abuse to nntpabuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99389 "Michael O'Neill" wrote in message news:3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie... > AC wrote: > > > > In article <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > > > > > > While its possible it was made by the dwarves for a Mannish King, it is > > > unlikely its a Dwarf Sword in the same way that Glamdring was and Elvish > > > blade. Dwarves are small people, you see and Theoden was a tall chap. > > > > But a Dwarf originally forged Narsil (the later Anduril). > > Really? Is this another David Day extravaganza? > > I don't recall its lineage being a Dwarvish Blade either. Where's the > reference please? > Aragorn outside Meduseld: "Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time". Telchar was a dwarf, I think. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> <3dd65a21_2@news1.vip.uk.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:28:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!teaser.fr!wanadoo.fr!freenix!deine.net!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99419 In article <3dd65a21_2@news1.vip.uk.com>, John Jones wrote: > "Michael O'Neill" wrote in message > news:3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie... >> AC wrote: >> > >> > In article <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >> > > >> > > While its possible it was made by the dwarves for a Mannish King, it > is >> > > unlikely its a Dwarf Sword in the same way that Glamdring was and > Elvish >> > > blade. Dwarves are small people, you see and Theoden was a tall chap. >> > >> > But a Dwarf originally forged Narsil (the later Anduril). >> >> Really? Is this another David Day extravaganza? >> > >> I don't recall its lineage being a Dwarvish Blade either. Where's the >> reference please? >> > > Aragorn outside Meduseld: "Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time". > Telchar was a dwarf, I think. Telchar was a Dwarf of Nogrod. It appears that we may have an inconsistency here. -- AC ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: 16 Nov 2002 23:10:41 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> <3dd65a21_2@news1.vip.uk.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1037488241 16379579 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99453 On 16 lis 2002, AC scribbled loosely: >>> > But a Dwarf originally forged Narsil (the later Anduril). >>> >>> Really? Is this another David Day extravaganza? >>> >> >>> I don't recall its lineage being a Dwarvish Blade either. Where's >>> the reference please? >>> >> >> Aragorn outside Meduseld: "Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time". >> Telchar was a dwarf, I think. > > Telchar was a Dwarf of Nogrod. It appears that we may have an > inconsistency here. > What do you mean? Why would that be an inconsistency? (I got lost a bit in this thread - are we now talking about Narsil or Herugrim?) -- Pradera --- "Good morning! How is everyone? Its now 6am. Time for sleepy heads to wake up! Heres the list of your dead friends in the order they died..." -Battle Royale http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: 17 Nov 2002 00:50:38 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> <3dd65a21_2@news1.vip.uk.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1037494238 10076 128.214.205.14 (17 Nov 2002 00:50:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Nov 2002 00:50:38 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99508 AC wrote: > In article , Pradera wrote: >> >> What do you mean? Why would that be an inconsistency? (I got lost a bit >> in this thread - are we now talking about Narsil or Herugrim?) > Someone quoted yesterday (or possibly the day before) a passage where the > sword was said to have been forged by Elven smiths. Then someone finally > revealed where Aragorn had said Narsil/Anduril had been forged by Telchar. > I'm going to have to get off my lazy butt and look up both passages. It was forged by Telchar and reforged by elven smiths in Imlandris. It was broken for some time, if you remember. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> <3dd65a21_2@news1.vip.uk.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:02:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99514 In article , Donald Shepherd wrote: > On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:43:42 GMT, AC > alleged... >> In article , Pradera wrote: >> > >> > What do you mean? Why would that be an inconsistency? (I got lost a bit >> > in this thread - are we now talking about Narsil or Herugrim?) >> >> Someone quoted yesterday (or possibly the day before) a passage where the >> sword was said to have been forged by Elven smiths. Then someone finally >> revealed where Aragorn had said Narsil/Anduril had been forged by Telchar. >> I'm going to have to get off my lazy butt and look up both passages. > > The only reference to Elven smiths that I can find trawling through the > thread was referring to the reforging of Anduril, and it's subsequent > renaming as Narsil. Then I'm not quite as delusional as I was beginning to think. It is indeed a Dwarvish blade. -- AC ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> <3dd65a21_2@news1.vip.uk.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:03:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99513 In article , Tamim wrote: > AC wrote: >> In article , Pradera wrote: >>> >>> What do you mean? Why would that be an inconsistency? (I got lost a bit >>> in this thread - are we now talking about Narsil or Herugrim?) > >> Someone quoted yesterday (or possibly the day before) a passage where the >> sword was said to have been forged by Elven smiths. Then someone finally >> revealed where Aragorn had said Narsil/Anduril had been forged by Telchar. >> I'm going to have to get off my lazy butt and look up both passages. > > It was forged by Telchar and reforged by elven smiths in Imlandris. It > was broken for some time, if you remember. Well, I was accused of a Day-ism on this point, and lord knows I've been wrong before. Now it's been confirmed that my sometimes-questionable memory was right this time. -- AC ###### From: john_altum@hotmail.com (John) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? Date: 16 Nov 2002 22:22:16 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: <51c18e24.0211162222.471ae0c@posting.google.com> References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> <3dd65a21_2@news1.vip.uk.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.233.213.202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1037514136 31706 127.0.0.1 (17 Nov 2002 06:22:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Nov 2002 06:22:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99524 AC wrote in message news:... > In article , Pradera wrote: > > > > What do you mean? Why would that be an inconsistency? (I got lost a bit > > in this thread - are we now talking about Narsil or Herugrim?) > > Someone quoted yesterday (or possibly the day before) a passage where the > sword was said to have been forged by Elven smiths. Then someone finally > revealed where Aragorn had said Narsil/Anduril had been forged by Telchar. > I'm going to have to get off my lazy butt and look up both passages. "...forged ANEW by elvensmiths." Telchar forged it, it broke, the elves forged it again. --John ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Herugrim - a Dwarven sword? References: <3DD41257.BDB39AB6@indigo.ie> <3DD594C1.45AAF580@indigo.ie> <3dd65a21_2@news1.vip.uk.com> <51c18e24.0211162222.471ae0c@posting.google.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:33:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!falcon.america.net!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:99507 In article <51c18e24.0211162222.471ae0c@posting.google.com>, John wrote: > AC wrote in message news:... >> In article , Pradera wrote: >> > >> > What do you mean? Why would that be an inconsistency? (I got lost a bit >> > in this thread - are we now talking about Narsil or Herugrim?) >> >> Someone quoted yesterday (or possibly the day before) a passage where the >> sword was said to have been forged by Elven smiths. Then someone finally >> revealed where Aragorn had said Narsil/Anduril had been forged by Telchar. >> I'm going to have to get off my lazy butt and look up both passages. > > "...forged ANEW by elvensmiths." Telchar forged it, it broke, the > elves forged it again. That wasn't the dispute. I had been accused of a Day-ism, which turned out to be wrong. Whatever its later history, Narsil was a sword forged by a Dwarf. -- AC