From: "Dylonius Funk" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:05:45 -0400 Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.237.197.172 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.237.197.172 Message-ID: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> X-Trace: 22 Oct 2002 23:10:48 -0500, 209.237.197.172 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.98.63.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.cybertours.com!209.237.197.172 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96943 This is something that i've allways been somewhat curious about. You have this Balrog, a deadly spirit of fire that has served Melkor for thousands of years. It's master is defeated by the wrath of the Valar and thier allies. So it flees and hides under the mountaisn in the mansion of Khazadum. Thousands of years go by, and suddenly it's either awoken, or let loose by greedy Dwarves. It kills two Draven kings and runs the rest out of there. So now it has this whole place to itslef. But why stay? Presumably it dosen't have a lot of manuvering room. There's no evidence to suggest Balrog's could change thier shapes. Perhaps like Morgoth it was something they had lost over the long years. But anywa there seems to me that tere would not be a lot for the balrog to do. There are several options it could have taken. 1. left and just gone exploring to see what kind of world it had awoken to 2. If he knew about him, perrhaps he could have gone north to see Smaug. A winged fire drake and a balrog could make an excellent team. We know that Balrogs and Dragons served together. I belive it was during the sack Of Gondolin 3. Gone east. That's where Sauron and the Nazgul wnet after the Second Age and it seemed to be a good place to recharge. I guess it just seems strange that a creature like good old Durin's bane would want to just hang aroudn an old mine. Any other thoughts? -- "This is a test of the national .sig alert system Had this been a real .sig you would have seen actual humor This is only a test" Dylonius Funk | Live Journal:http://www.livejournal.com/users/dyloniusfunk/ | remove the "merceplanet" to contact me. Email always appreciated. "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. " Calvin,Calvin and Hobbes ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:32:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!HSNX.atgi.net!falcon.america.net!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96971 In article <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com>, Dylonius Funk wrote: > 1. left and just gone exploring to see what kind of world it had awoken to > 2. If he knew about him, perrhaps he could have gone north to see Smaug. A > winged fire drake and a balrog could make an excellent team. We know that > Balrogs and Dragons served together. I belive it was during the sack Of > Gondolin > 3. Gone east. That's where Sauron and the Nazgul wnet after the Second Age > and it seemed to be a good place to recharge. > I guess it just seems strange that a creature like good old Durin's bane > would want to just hang aroudn an old mine. Any other thoughts? The Balrog had a realm of its own, in which it was nearly undefeatable master (until an Ainu came along to clear it out). It had Orcs as servants, a wealth in mithril, and no pesky Elves. What would it have gained that it didn't already have where it was? -- AC ###### From: "Dylonius Funk" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:43:27 -0400 Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.237.197.172 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.237.197.172 Message-ID: <3db61c0f_1@news.cybertours.com> X-Trace: 22 Oct 2002 23:48:31 -0500, 209.237.197.172 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.98.63.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.cybertours.com!209.237.197.172 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96946 "AC" wrote in message news:slrnarc637.20q.spam@ts1.alberni.net... > In article <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com>, Dylonius Funk wrote: > > 1. left and just gone exploring to see what kind of world it had awoken to > > 2. If he knew about him, perrhaps he could have gone north to see Smaug. A > > winged fire drake and a balrog could make an excellent team. We know that > > Balrogs and Dragons served together. I belive it was during the sack Of > > Gondolin > > 3. Gone east. That's where Sauron and the Nazgul wnet after the Second Age > > and it seemed to be a good place to recharge. > > I guess it just seems strange that a creature like good old Durin's bane > > would want to just hang aroudn an old mine. Any other thoughts? > > The Balrog had a realm of its own, in which it was nearly undefeatable > master (until an Ainu came along to clear it out). It had Orcs as servants, Did it have those when it first awoke? I thought the orcs didn't come into Moria until the Balrog had been around for a while. I'm thinking back when it had the place all to itself > a wealth in mithril, What exactly was it going to do with it though? Balrogs don't strike me as the commerce and trade types. and no pesky Elves. What would it have gained that it > didn't already have where it was? Dominion perhaps? The chance to achive with Sauron what it couldn't with Morgoth, that is it's own realm. There had to have been some reason it choose to serve Melkor. > -- > AC ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db61c0f_1@news.cybertours.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:58:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96984 In article <3db61c0f_1@news.cybertours.com>, Dylonius Funk wrote: > It had Orcs as servants, > Did it have those when it first awoke? I thought the orcs didn't come into > Moria until the Balrog had been around for a while. I'm thinking back when > it had the place all to itself Even if the Orcs did come later, Moria was still the Balrog's. The Dwarves could never hope to defeat it, and it didn't appear that the remaining Noldorin Exiles were all that interested in having anything to do with Moria. >> a wealth in mithril, > What exactly was it going to do with it though? Balrogs don't strike me as > the commerce and trade types. Neither was Morgoth, but he seemed to have an affinity for certain Noldorin jewels. Dragons were into wealth as well, and they likely could derive even less direct enjoyment from their riches than a Balrog. > and no pesky Elves. What would it have gained that it >> didn't already have where it was? > Dominion perhaps? The chance to achive with Sauron what it couldn't with > Morgoth, that is it's own realm. There had to have been some reason it > choose to serve Melkor. The little we see of the Balrogs does not show beings all that interested in realms. Besides, perhaps the Balrog wasn't all that interested in working with (read working *for*) Sauron. He had his realm, wealth, servants and was practically unassailable. What would he have gained that he didn't already have, and for darn little risk? Sauron attracted a great deal of attention because Sauron was a big player. -- AC ###### From: "Dylonius Funk" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db61c0f_1@news.cybertours.com> Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:13:55 -0400 Lines: 47 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.237.197.172 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.237.197.172 Message-ID: <3db62333_1@news.cybertours.com> X-Trace: 23 Oct 2002 00:18:59 -0500, 209.237.197.172 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.98.63.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.cybertours.com!209.237.197.172 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96942 "AC" wrote in message news:slrnarc7ki.2bq.spam@ts1.alberni.net... > In article <3db61c0f_1@news.cybertours.com>, Dylonius Funk wrote: > > It had Orcs as servants, > > Did it have those when it first awoke? I thought the orcs didn't come into > > Moria until the Balrog had been around for a while. I'm thinking back when > > it had the place all to itself > > Even if the Orcs did come later, Moria was still the Balrog's. The Dwarves > could never hope to defeat it, and it didn't appear that the remaining > Noldorin Exiles were all that interested in having anything to do with > Moria. > > >> a wealth in mithril, > > What exactly was it going to do with it though? Balrogs don't strike me as > > the commerce and trade types. > > Neither was Morgoth, but he seemed to have an affinity for certain Noldorin > jewels. Dragons were into wealth as well, and they likely could derive even > less direct enjoyment from their riches than a Balrog. That's true. I had forgotten about Dragon's love of hoarded wealth. > > and no pesky Elves. What would it have gained that it > >> didn't already have where it was? > > Dominion perhaps? The chance to achive with Sauron what it couldn't with > > Morgoth, that is it's own realm. There had to have been some reason it > > choose to serve Melkor. > > The little we see of the Balrogs does not show beings all that interested in > realms. Besides, perhaps the Balrog wasn't all that interested in working > with (read working *for*) Sauron. He had his realm, wealth, servants and > was practically unassailable. What would he have gained that he didn't > already have, and for darn little risk? Sauron attracted a great deal of > attention because Sauron was a big player. That's something that's somewhat bugged me. In the Silmarilion it states that Melkor gave gifts and promises to those he corrputed. I figured one of those promises would have been for dominion over realms of Arda. maybe i'm not remembering the poassage right or am completly off the ball. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db61c0f_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db62333_1@news.cybertours.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 04:40:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!opentransit.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96976 In article <3db62333_1@news.cybertours.com>, Dylonius Funk wrote: > That's something that's somewhat bugged me. In the Silmarilion it states > that Melkor gave gifts and promises to those he corrputed. I figured one of > those promises would have been for dominion over realms of Arda. maybe i'm > not remembering the poassage right or am completly off the ball. However he initially corrupted the Ainur that were to become Balrogs is never said. But who is to say that their desires were great realms? Perhaps there were other methods of corruption. -- AC ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:30:52 +0000 (UTC) Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db61c0f_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db62333_1@news.cybertours.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp128-109.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1035361852 74752 62.118.128.109 (23 Oct 2002 08:30:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:30:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NewsPro163f Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed.sovam.com!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96931 AC wrote: >In article <3db62333_1@news.cybertours.com>, Dylonius Funk wrote: [...] >However he initially corrupted the Ainur that were to become Balrogs is >never said. But who is to say that their desires were great realms? >Perhaps there were other methods of corruption. I recall (Lay of Leithian or BoLT?) that in one or two places Balrogs at Morgoth's throne are described as "proud". It is interesting that this may well have been the pride of the best warrior. I'd go rather far to suggest that Balrogs were the Samurai of Morgoth. It explains the corruption, since the Valar couldn't give Balrogs the sense of dominating the battlefield with no laws to bind them. Archie ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: 23 Oct 2002 13:13:17 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1035378797 12981 128.214.205.14 (23 Oct 2002 13:13:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2002 13:13:17 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96982 BTW why was it so easy to open the West gate of Moria? You just say Mellon and it lets you enter. The gate itself appears to been quite sturdy because even Sauron could not open it when he was there in the second age. He could have asked Celebimbor for the password and invaded Moria but he was apparently too stupid for that. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: 23 Oct 2002 20:07:12 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1035396432 843 10.0.3.2 (23 Oct 2002 18:07:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2002 18:07:12 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97030 Tamim writes: > BTW why was it so easy to open the West gate of Moria? You just say > Mellon and it lets you enter. Simpler times, simpler people. So less need for effective stuff. And it did block even Gandalf for a while. > The gate itself appears to been quite > sturdy because even Sauron could not open it when he was there in the > second age. He could have asked Celebimbor for the password and invaded > Moria but he was apparently too stupid for that. Or not interested enough? Forcing Celebrimbor would take work. Simply giving rings to the Dwarves was a lot easier. That that would not corrupt them into slaves he at that time did not know. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: 23 Oct 2002 18:50:26 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1035399026 27577 128.214.205.14 (23 Oct 2002 18:50:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2002 18:50:26 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97162 Neil Franklin wrote: > Tamim writes: >> BTW why was it so easy to open the West gate of Moria? You just say >> Mellon and it lets you enter. > Simpler times, simpler people. They weren't very simple times, Sauron ruled most of Middle-earth. > So less need for effective stuff. And > it did block even Gandalf for a while. True >> The gate itself appears to been quite >> sturdy because even Sauron could not open it when he was there in the >> second age. He could have asked Celebimbor for the password and invaded >> Moria but he was apparently too stupid for that. > Or not interested enough? Forcing Celebrimbor would take work. He forced the Location of the seven fom Celebimbor, why not the password of the gates to Khazad-dum? And he was interested "Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose..... ....Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dűm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell). Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron's hate, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might." UT snip ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:53:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97161 In article , Tamim wrote: > Neil Franklin wrote: >> Tamim writes: > >>> BTW why was it so easy to open the West gate of Moria? You just say >>> Mellon and it lets you enter. > >> Simpler times, simpler people. > > They weren't very simple times, Sauron ruled most of Middle-earth. Not when Khazad-dum and Eregion were best pals, he didn't. He was still Annatar, Lord of Gifts, going around trying to con Elves. -- AC ###### From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.70.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1035406768 ST000 64.252.70.99 (Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:59:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:59:28 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: TSU[@IONPZU]BRLY@BCBNQ@@AZOZ@GXOXB]T]_MIJQR@EPIB_VUKAH_[MTX\IS[K[NGYJJFNOFZR_G[BUNTAOQLFE^TEHRPI]PZZRP_BMDSFQFL_]CBHXRWCMDCUZAZN@D_AKMNLEI]MWHCSXL^]NNC__CZFGSGHYYXWPFG@SCAVA]\FT\@B\RDGENSUQS^M Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:59:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97038 Neil Franklin wrote ... >Tamim writes: >> The gate itself appears to been quite >> sturdy because even Sauron could not open it when he was there in the >> second age. He could have asked Celebimbor for the password and invaded >> Moria but he was apparently too stupid for that. > >Or not interested enough? Forcing Celebrimbor would take work. Simply >giving rings to the Dwarves was a lot easier. That that would not >corrupt them into slaves he at that time did not know. I think you've hit on the most plausible answer here. Even with the gate open, attacking Moria would have been very costly for both sides. Even if Sauron won he would have at best a depleted, rebellious slave labour force and a depleted army with which to fight Gil-Galad. Much better from his point of view would be corrupting the King and bringing the entire productive population of Moria under his sway as thralls. By the time he realised that the Ring of Durin wouldn't work in this way, Numenor had control of Eriador and Sauron's chance was lost. Trade. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: 23 Oct 2002 22:14:53 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DB71BFB.F9E9E96D@ThisIsFake.fk> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1035411293 5915 128.214.205.14 (23 Oct 2002 22:14:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2002 22:14:53 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97153 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Tamim wrote: >> >> He forced the Location of the seven fom Celebimbor, why not >> the password of the gates to Khazad-dum? And he was interested > > That particular interest didn't come up until "Celebrimbor's body > hung upon a pole". By then it was a little too late to go back > and start torturing him again. snip True, but although we know that Sauron was quite naive abou altruism and humbleness, he wasn't stupid. He might have guessed that it would be usefull to know the password to Moria someday, especially when he had lived in Eregion in Moria's vicinity for some time. But you are right it's not a miracle that he didn't ask it from Celebimbor, what is a miracle is that anybody who knew that simple password could enter Moria. What's the use of building gates that even Sauron can't break if one can enter by saying a simple password that could either be found out from any Dwarf or by reading the text above the gate? How come Gandalf figured it out in a day and Sauron couldn't? We know he wasn't stupid. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: 23 Oct 2002 22:22:47 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1035411767 5915 128.214.205.14 (23 Oct 2002 22:22:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2002 22:22:47 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97158 AC wrote: > In article , Tamim wrote: >> Neil Franklin wrote: >>> Tamim writes: >> >>>> BTW why was it so easy to open the West gate of Moria? You just say >>>> Mellon and it lets you enter. >> >>> Simpler times, simpler people. >> >> They weren't very simple times, Sauron ruled most of Middle-earth. > Not when Khazad-dum and Eregion were best pals, he didn't. He was still > Annatar, Lord of Gifts, going around trying to con Elves. True. He had already built Barad-dur when he tortured Celebimbor though. And I don't know what the situation was in the east around 1600 SA. Whatever the case, it's strange they didn't change the system in Moria. And why did they make so magnificent gates if they could be opened by saying mellon? > -- > AC -- ###### Message-ID: <3DB725A5.B22F3D70@acm.org> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:41:46 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db61c0f_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db62333_1@news.cybertours.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.15 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1035412900 830 207.199.164.15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.154.160.102.MISMATCH!newsfeed.eunet.at!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97219 AC wrote: > > However he initially corrupted the Ainur that were to become Balrogs is > never said. But who is to say that their desires were great realms? > Perhaps there were other methods of corruption. Several passages suggest that one of the Balrogs' roles was tormenting Elves. Perhaps that was a greater desire than lordship. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### Message-ID: <3DB727C0.E340F169@acm.org> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:50:46 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.15 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1035413440 830 207.199.164.15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97218 Tamim wrote: > > BTW why was it so easy to open the West gate of Moria? You just say > Mellon and it lets you enter. The gate itself appears to been quite > sturdy because even Sauron could not open it when he was there in the > second age. He could have asked Celebimbor for the password and invaded > Moria but he was apparently too stupid for that. I always assumed that Sauron _did_ get the password. The gate was closed to him. I think it's safe to conclude from the passage that the password was the ordinary doorknob, and the Dwarves had sturdier locks when they needed to use them. In fact, I always assumed the password was not intended to be secret. I called it a doorknob because its only function was to keep the gate from flapping in the wind. Anybody reading the inscription could open the door. There were probably guards keeping an eye on who did so. This is a good lesson on the limits of passwords. The gate was not protected by its password. Everybody would have known that. A password-protected gate would be one with a mixture of uppercase and lowercase runes, at least 256 characters long, and changed at every full moon. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DB71BFB.F9E9E96D@ThisIsFake.fk> Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.70.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1035413717 ST000 64.252.70.99 (Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:55:17 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:55:17 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: T[OYRY[E]JVOBFD[@JJLNQMAPJYRUVLHWY\Z]\YIBATBDTICYFW[QB[YHL\DHWWIDFCGZAZLUNYZ_J_A[NVC^PPFINVOIPXHDPX@BQ[@J\RJADL^GSF\X\W@@\BQJJFNB\ZMKHRLZY^MFKSSDL^GOIW^GSY@FRWHMQ[GPBGACCFLAQ@F\L@J\\LGY^TUAVBM Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:55:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97042 Tamim wrote ... >What's the use of building gates that even Sauron can't break if one can >enter by saying a simple password that could either be found out from >any Dwarf or by reading the text above the gate? How come Gandalf >figured it out in a day and Sauron couldn't? We know he wasn't stupid. A hypothesis, and it's pure hypothesis with no support that I know of, is that the gates of Moria also had some kind of active lock that could be maintained by someone on the inside at need, kind of like a deadbolt in addition to a combination lock. If this second lock was active in nature then when the last dwarf who knew how to maintain it left Moria it would lapse. Such an active lock would protect the dwarves as long as they held Moria but would pose no obstacle to them if some enemy captured Moria and the dwarves wanted to retake it. The orcs of Moria would see a gate apparently closed and think themselves secure, not knowing that any dwarf army that happened to be passing could just open it up again by saying 'Mellon'. Trade. ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:40:16 +0000 (UTC) Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db61c0f_1@news.cybertours.com> <3db62333_1@news.cybertours.com> <3DB725A5.B22F3D70@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp134-144.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1035416416 36666 62.118.134.144 (23 Oct 2002 23:40:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:40:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NewsPro163f Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97069 Glenn Holliday wrote: >AC wrote: >> [...] >Several passages suggest that one of the Balrogs' roles was >tormenting Elves. Perhaps that was a greater desire than lordship. It looks like a hobby. But a very amusing one (for a Balrog). This has the intoxicating flavour of impunity. Maybe you're right. Archie ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:28:02 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97163 It had ordered DVDs from Netflix and was waiting for them to show up. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com/ "My theory was a perfectly good one. The facts were misleading." -- /The Lady Vanishes/ (1938) ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: 24 Oct 2002 10:11:34 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DB71BFB.F9E9E96D@ThisIsFake.fk> <3DB7BC22.35CE4768@ThisIsFake.fk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1035454294 29586762 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97202 On 24 pa? 2002, Troels Forchhammer scribbled loosely: > I have been speculating about that as well - especially as it would > eliminate my concern as to why Sauron never learned the password when > he lived in Eregion as Annatar. If we assume some sort of lock on the > doors that would render the password useless, then Sauron could stood > outside screaming 'Mellon' until he was hoarse, but it would have > availed him not - the gates would have remained shut. > Maybe, being a meanie he was, he could not utter the word, especially in elvish ;) -- Pradera --- Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage Tori no mure ga naiteiru Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: 24 Oct 2002 10:18:11 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DB7BF6B.DDC1CDCC@MOVEcgey.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1035454691 29586762 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97209 On 24 pa? 2002, Kristian Damm Jensen scribbled loosely: > Tamim wrote: >> >> Whatever the case, it's strange they didn't change the system in Moria. >> And why did they make so magnificent gates if they could be opened by >> saying mellon? > > To keep out the wind and the snow? > Yes, that, I think, is the answer to the question. Door to Moria was a great piece of heavy stone. Imagine moving it each time you wanted to go in. I think the word 'mellon' served as a doorknob here. You didn't have to push the door, you only had to stand and say 'mellon' and - the door opened by itself, Star Trek-like. They had to have a door, of course, and it had to be made sturdy enough to withstand siege - but in times of peace, it had to be easily openable. That's why it had 'mellon' instead of the doorknob and five strong dwarves opening and closing it all the time... -- Pradera --- Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage Tori no mure ga naiteiru Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: lazarus Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DB71BFB.F9E9E96D@ThisIsFake.fk> <3DB7BC22.35CE4768@ThisIsFake.fk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:31:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.105.118.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1035459088 68.105.118.42 (Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:31:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:31:28 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97198 On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:23:46 +0200, Troels Forchhammer wrote: >TradeSurplus wrote: >> >> Tamim wrote ... >>> >>> What's the use of building gates that even Sauron can't break if one can >>> enter by saying a simple password that could either be found out from >>> any Dwarf or by reading the text above the gate? >> >> A hypothesis, and it's pure hypothesis with no support that I know of, is >> that the gates of Moria also had some kind of active lock that could be >> maintained by someone on the inside at need > >I have been speculating about that as well - especially as it would >eliminate my concern as to why Sauron never learned the password when >he lived in Eregion as Annatar. If we assume some sort of lock on the >doors that would render the password useless, then Sauron could stood >outside screaming 'Mellon' until he was hoarse, but it would have >availed him not - the gates would have remained shut. Wasn't the door normally open, and watched by guards? And wasn't there something to do with the script, how it would only show up in moonlight? Gah, my books are in storage, sheer memory here. -- lazarus "Therefore, my Harry, Be it thy course to busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels; that action, hence borne out, may waste the memory of the former days." -- King Henry IV, Part ii Act 4, Scene 5 ###### From: "Dylonius Funk" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <3DB727C0.E340F169@acm.org> <3DB7BFD5.BCA77F46@ThisIsFake.fk> Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:13:14 -0400 Lines: 71 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.237.196.145 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.237.196.145 Message-ID: <3db8012e_2@news.cybertours.com> X-Trace: 24 Oct 2002 10:18:22 -0500, 209.237.196.145 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.98.63.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!wn12feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.cybertours.com!209.237.196.145 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97095 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message news:3DB7BFD5.BCA77F46@ThisIsFake.fk... > Glenn Holliday wrote: > > > > I always assumed that Sauron _did_ get the password. > > The gate was closed to him. I think it's safe to > > conclude from the passage that the password was the > > ordinary doorknob, and the Dwarves had sturdier locks > > when they needed to use them. > > That has occurred to me as well, and it's also being > discussed elsewhere (posted 5 minutes after your > post ;-) > > > In fact, I always assumed the password was not > > intended to be secret. > > I think Gandalf said as much ... > > Oh, well - almost: > "'That is plain enough,' said Gimli. `If you are a friend, > speak the password, and the doors will open, and you can > enter.' > 'Yes,' said Gandalf, 'these doors are probably governed by > words. Some dwarf-gates will open only at special times, or > for particular persons; and some have locks and keys that > are still needed when all necessary times and words are > known. These doors have no key. In the days of Durin they > were not secret. They usually stood open and doorwards sat > here. But if they were shut, any who knew the opening word > could speak it and pass in. At least so it is recorded, is > it not, Gimli? ' > 'It is,' said the dwarf." > - A Journey in the Dark. > It does sort of imply that the password at least wasn't a > closely guarded secret - it appears to have been given quite > freely to friends. > > > This is a good lesson on the limits of passwords. The gate > > was not protected by its password. Everybody would have > > known that. A password-protected gate would be one with > > a mixture of uppercase and lowercase runes, at least > > 256 characters long, and changed at every full moon. > > Don't forget numbers and punctuation signs ;-) > > I wonder what Gandalf would have done if faced with a > keyboard with some 100+ keys having to guess a 256 > character password ;-) That's what you get for useing Windows on your door, with it's 256 character naming system. Should have used DOS, then you only get about 8 or 10 charactes to use. Easier to remeber, though also easier to guess -- "This is a test of the national .sig alert system Had this been a real .sig you would have seen actual humor This is only a test" Dylonius Funk | Live Journal:http://www.livejournal.com/users/dyloniusfunk/ | remove the "merceplanet" to contact me. Email always appreciated. "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. " Calvin,Calvin and Hobbes ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:45:52 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3db708ae.204599498@msnews.microsoft.com> References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-ngm-vty31.as.wcom.net X-Trace: nntp-m01.news.aol.com 1035481725 22406 216.192.85.31 (24 Oct 2002 17:48:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:48:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97152 On 23 Oct 2002 18:50:26 GMT, Tamim wrote: >>> The gate itself appears to been quite >>> sturdy because even Sauron could not open it when he was there in the >>> second age. He could have asked Celebimbor for the password and invaded >>> Moria but he was apparently too stupid for that. > >> Or not interested enough? Forcing Celebrimbor would take work. > >He forced the Location of the seven fom Celebimbor, why not the password >of the gates to Khazad-dum? And he was interested [snippage] >he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell). Sauron >withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves >of Lórinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and >he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron's hate, and all >Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might." The gates opened by themselves when Gandalf said the words, but if there had been dwarf guards inside they could easily have kept them shut anyway. Or so I imagine. Jim Deutch ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3db708ae.204599498@msnews.microsoft.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:02:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!wanadoo.fr!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97168 In article <3db708ae.204599498@msnews.microsoft.com>, Jim Deutch wrote: > > The gates opened by themselves when Gandalf said the words, but if > there had been dwarf guards inside they could easily have kept them > shut anyway. Or so I imagine. That is what I'm going with. It seems the most logical solution (though obviously not supported by text). -- AC ###### From: "Chocoholic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:03:54 -0400 Organization: World Anarchists Syndicate Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DB71B7D.66925E2C@ThisIsFake.fk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97149 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message news:3DB71B7D.66925E2C@ThisIsFake.fk... > AC wrote: > > > > Tamim wrote: > >> > >> They weren't very simple times, Sauron ruled most of Middle-earth. > > > > Not when Khazad-dum and Eregion were best pals, he didn't. He was still > > Annatar, Lord of Gifts, going around trying to con Elves. > > One might wonder how it came to be that Sauron didn't learn the > password at that time. Or could the Dwarves lock the doors even > against someone using the password? > > ("but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter.") > Exactly. Who's to say they couldn't stop the spell from working on the inside? Or just put a bolt across those doors? It doesn't sound like a lote of force was involved in opening them if you could do it with your hands from the inside... Not to mention that it was just a single stair going up in the inner side. Could be a difficult climb if large numbers of Dwarves at the top with crossbows and assorted boulders didn't want you to visit. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? References: Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:44:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97445 In article , Bob Thurman wrote: > I'm not an expert, but I seem to recall something. > > There was a line somewhere about the forging of the ring that > went something like this.." he learned the craft (ring making) > from the elves" this surprised me because I would have thought > dwarves would have the craft. > > Since the craft was learned from the elves, elf writing would be > a necessary part of the magic required! You've gotten it backwards. It was Sauron's lore that permitted Celebrimbor and his smiths to forge the Rings of Power. It is precisely for that reason that Sauron could make an attempt at dominating them by forging the Ruling Ring. -- AC ###### From: "Darth Quokka" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why did the balrog stay in Moria? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:10:36 +0800 Organization: WAIA Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3db61338_1@news.cybertours.com> <6ur8ehni5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DB7BF6B.DDC1CDCC@MOVEcgey.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ophidian238.upnaway.com X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1035720238 6312 202.71.163.238 (27 Oct 2002 12:03:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 12:03:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97347 "Kristian Damm Jensen" wrote in message news:3DB7BF6B.DDC1CDCC@MOVEcgey.com... > Tamim wrote: > > > > Whatever the case, it's strange they didn't change the system in Moria. > > And why did they make so magnificent gates if they could be opened by > > saying mellon? > > To keep out the wind and the snow? > > > And that slithery "watcher" thing in the lake... You dont want lots of slippery puddles all over the place, dwarves would have been pissed with all the cleaning!!!