Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? From: Taser Organization: Your Company Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Lines: 9 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 02:13:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.206.122.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1035252815 24.206.122.107 (Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:13:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:13:35 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96896 The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that, "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech. So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on the Ring? Just wonderin' ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:21:02 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.kc.rr.com 1035253226 65.26.218.54 (Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:20:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:20:26 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96880 "Taser" wrote in message news:Xns92AED80476BC3taser8hotmailcom@207.217.77.101... > The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but > written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that, > "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other > quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech. > > So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on > the Ring? > > Just wonderin' He had no script of his own. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS ###### From: "abracadabra" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 22:49:38 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.87.2f X-Server-Date: 22 Oct 2002 02:49:40 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96887 "Taser" wrote in message news:Xns92AED80476BC3taser8hotmailcom@207.217.77.101... > The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but > written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that, > "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other > quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech. > > So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on > the Ring? > > Just wonderin' 1) Nobody really liked reading or speaking in the "Black Speach" 2) No "r" or "b" in the black speech, making it "one ing to ule them all one ing to ind them one ing to ing all into aknes and ind them" It just didn't work Aside from that Black Speech Font is all caps, so it doens't fit on a little ring... ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:11:40 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96892 Taser wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but >written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that, >"'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other >quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech. > >So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on >the Ring? In the Council of Elrond, Gandalf quotes Isildur's answer to that question: "Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; ...". In ordinary language: The Elvish script was written with very fine lines and could condense a lot of letters in a small space. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:33:36 -0400 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org> References: Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVanwfBbAbT2teGwhT345csNJS/Z2Mbe+oKAgHA1oRCFZTzV8qRbe7Vr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2002 03:33:29 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96879 Taser wrote: > So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on > the Ring? He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself. -- -- FotW The Marmite FAQ http://www.gty.org/~phil/marmite.htm ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? From: Taser References: <3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org> Organization: Your Company Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Lines: 15 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 03:40:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.206.122.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1035258010 24.206.122.107 (Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:40:10 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:40:10 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96899 Flame of the West wrote in news:3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org: > Taser wrote: > >> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the >> inscription on the Ring? > > He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian > script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself. > But Legolas clearly states that he did not, as a habit, use Elvish characters. This would imply to me that there was a written form of Black Speech. I just haven't found any specific references to it. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? From: Taser References: Organization: Your Company Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Lines: 16 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 03:43:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.206.122.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1035258180 24.206.122.107 (Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:43:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:43:00 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96898 > Legolas clearly states at one point >> that, "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", >> and from other quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black >> Speech. > > Black-speech has no written characters. I'm trying to find out if this is indeed the case. Evidence seems to contradict this assertion - Legolas states that Sauron and his minions do not use Elvish script, implying that they use SOME kind of script; and as others have pointed out, Isildur wrote that, "they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work", implying that they do have a grosser and less elegant form of writing. But, again, a lot of "implied"s and "seems to be"s. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? From: Taser References: Organization: Your Company Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Lines: 16 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 03:48:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.206.122.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1035258536 24.206.122.107 (Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:48:56 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:48:56 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96901 > Legolas clearly states at one point >> that, "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", >> and from other quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black >> Speech. > > Black-speech has no written characters. I'm trying to find out if this is indeed the case. Evidence seems to contradict this assertion - Legolas states that Sauron and his minions do not use Elvish script, implying that they use SOME kind of script; and as others have pointed out, Isildur wrote that, "they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work", implying that they do have a grosser and less elegant form of writing. But, again, a lot of "implied"s and "seems to be"s. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? From: Taser References: Organization: Your Company Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Lines: 8 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 03:53:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.206.122.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1035258831 24.206.122.107 (Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:53:51 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:53:51 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!tornadotest1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96897 > In ordinary language: The Elvish script was written with very fine > lines and could condense a lot of letters in a small space. > This seems like the most likely answer; I also wonder if the fact that Sauron had been working so closely with the Elves at the time of the forging of the Ring had accustomed him to writing Elvish, a habit he only later changed. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? References: <3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 04:39:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96884 In article <3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org>, Flame of the West wrote: > Taser wrote: > >> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on >> the Ring? > > He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian > script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself. I really don't think Feanor was as evil as Sauron. The difference, in my humble opinion, is that Feanor went nuts, while Sauron picked a bad mentor. -- AC ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 22:42:44 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <69p9rugsbbchhk8pnpk1ukgujhuig78bdj@4ax.com> Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96917 On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 04:39:17 GMT, AC wrote: > >I really don't think Feanor was as evil as Sauron. The difference, in my >humble opinion, is that Feanor went nuts, while Sauron picked a bad mentor. That's right! Blame it all on psychology and the school system! the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "A new study shows that licking a frog can cure depression. The down side is, the minute you stop licking, the frog gets depressed again." --Jay Leno ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 07:47:41 +0000 (UTC) Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp138-152.dialup.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 1035272861 28350 62.118.138.152 (22 Oct 2002 07:47:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 07:47:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NewsPro163f Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96873 Flame of the West wrote: >Taser wrote: > >> So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on >> the Ring? > >He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian >script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself. Yeah! Bomb the Halls of Mandos! Seriously, it's not Sauron but Feanor who breaks the Silmarils at the End. Obviously, it is a repentance of a kind. Archie ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: 22 Oct 2002 12:37:09 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6u65vuu5d6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1035283035 658 10.0.3.2 (22 Oct 2002 10:37:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2002 10:37:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96918 Taser writes: > > Legolas clearly states at one point > >> that, "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", > >> and from other quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black > >> Speech. > > contradict this assertion - Legolas states that Sauron and his minions do > not use Elvish script, Legolas said "Elf-runes", not "Elvish script". There exist 2 elvish scripts: - The Tengwar of Feanor, who is/was an Noldo. Later copied by most other "good" people (other elves, Numenor, Gondor...). Used on the ring, as the inscription printed in the books shows - The Cirth of Dearon, also know as Elf Runes (as it looks like runes). Still used by the anti-Noldo Sindar of Thingol and their descendants (to which Legolas and his family belonged), and in modified for by the dwarves (Balins tomb inscription) So Legolas would use Elf Runes, and so have looked at what he knows about the ring inscription fromt ha point of view. "Not Elf-Runes" could easily mean Tengwar. > others have pointed out, Isildur wrote that, "they have no letters in > Mordor for such subtle work", implying that they do have a grosser and less > elegant form of writing. Somthing developed for Orc use. But not of any use for Sauron himself. > But, again, a lot of "implied"s and "seems to be"s. That is often the case with Tolkien. We are used to it. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: ttarvind@vsnl.in (T.T. Arvind) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re:Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: 22 Oct 2002 11:45:32 +0100 Organization: UEA Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca7.uea.ac.uk X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 1035283532 26829 139.222.130.7 (22 Oct 2002 10:45:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2002 10:45:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96927 Taser did boldly declaim: > But Legolas clearly states that he did not, as a habit, use Elvish > characters. This would imply to me that there was a written form of Black > Speech. I just haven't found any specific references to it. What about this sentence in IV:7 ("Journey to the cross-roads"), in describing the defaced statue of the king at the cross-roads: "Upon its knees and mighty chair, and all about the pedestal, were idle scrawls mixed with the foul symbols that the maggot-folk of Mordor used." The reference to "foul symbols" seems to be a clear reference to a separate script. Since the orcs of the dark tower (who presumably made those scrawls) spoke a "debased form" of the black-speech, it seems likely that their script was originally used for the black speech too. Cheers, Meneldil ###### From: Vilhelm Sjoberg Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:25:38 +0200 Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3DB535B2.8030408@cam.ac.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vas30.kings.cam.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!teaser.fr!noos.fr!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!peer.news.eu-x.com!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97022 Stan Brown wrote: > In the Council of Elrond, Gandalf quotes Isildur's answer to that > question: "Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear > as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is > fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in > Mordor for such subtle work; ...". > > In ordinary language: The Elvish script was written with very fine > lines and could condense a lot of letters in a small space. I read the same sentence as saying that the Sauronic letters were rather crude and ugly, and would look out-of-place on a work of such beauty as a ring of power. -Vilhelm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:37:51 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-t082.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1035286956 8991 62.103.252.82 (22 Oct 2002 11:42:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 11:42:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-stob.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96941 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org... > Taser wrote: > > > So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on > > the Ring? > > He had no need to invent his own script, as the Fëanorian > script was invented by someone just as evil as Sauron himself. Rather cruel to judge the entire life of Feanor only from a couple of his actions in the end. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Michael Lodge User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 11:59:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.137.199.86 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1035287954 144.137.199.86 (Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:59:14 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:59:14 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97025 Taser wrote: > The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but > written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that, > "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other > quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech. > > So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on > the Ring? > > Just wonderin' Another possible explanation for this is that Leolas didn't know as much about Sauron as he though. Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK (The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'. The mouth refers to Sauron again while he is talking 'But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the seat of Sauron the Great'. The characters in the book don't know everything. If someone comments about something outside his or her area of expertise, you have to take into account the posiblity that the character may have missed something. ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3DB535B2.8030408@cam.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:24:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1035293066 65.26.218.54 (Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:24:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:24:26 CDT Organization: RoadRunner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97002 "Vilhelm Sjoberg" wrote in message news:3DB535B2.8030408@cam.ac.uk... > Stan Brown wrote: > > In the Council of Elrond, Gandalf quotes Isildur's answer to that > > question: "Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear > > as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is > > fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in > > Mordor for such subtle work; ...". > > > > In ordinary language: The Elvish script was written with very fine > > lines and could condense a lot of letters in a small space. > > > I read the same sentence as saying that the Sauronic letters were rather > crude and ugly, and would look out-of-place on a work of such beauty as > a ring of power. I don't think there is such a thing as "Sauronic letters". -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:59:57 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97011 Taser wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >> In ordinary language: The Elvish script was written with very fine >> lines and could condense a lot of letters in a small space. >> >This seems like the most likely answer; Thank you for trimming quotes to just the specific part you're responding to. I wish everyone did that. But don't go too far, please: proper attribution should be part of every follow-up. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:01:29 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96993 Michael Cole wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Black-speech has no written characters. Where do you get that, please? Isildur says they have "no letters in Mordor for such subtle work". That implies that there _is_ some written version of the Black Speech; otherwise Isildur would have said "no letters in Mordor" and stopped there. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:59:46 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1035298812 28205 203.100.22.231 (22 Oct 2002 15:00:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2002 15:00:12 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96975 In article , taser8 @hotmail.com says... > The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but > written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that, > "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other > quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech. > > So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on > the Ring? > > Just wonderin' Couldn't it simply be a case similar to that of French and English, where the characters are the same (we do have accents, etc, in English as well), but the languages are different? Hence Legolas would recognise them as Elf-runes, but nevertheless it is still the Black Speech. -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:42:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1035301340 65.26.218.54 (Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:42:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:42:20 CDT Organization: RoadRunner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.rt.ru!rt.ru!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!news-east.rr.com!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97006 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.181f244774f62ba198a1ac@news.odyssey.net... > Michael Cole wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Black-speech has no written characters. > > Where do you get that, please? > > Isildur says they have "no letters in Mordor for such subtle work". > That implies that there _is_ some written version of the Black > Speech; otherwise Isildur would have said "no letters in Mordor" and > stopped there. I don't think it implies anything of the sort. Clearly, there *are* letters used by Sauron and his servants. The question is whether they were created by him, or simply borrowed (and most likely corrupted) from Elvish sources. The appendices state that Orcs used a form of the Cirth. In addition, the first sentence of Appendix E under "Writing" states that the scripts and letters used in the Third Age were all ultimately of Eldarin origin. Whether there was any form of writing of non-Elvish origin prior to the TA is not clear, but doesn't seem likely, IMO. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:52:48 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97024 On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:59:46 +1000, Donald Shepherd wrote: > >Couldn't it simply be a case similar to that of French and English, >where the characters are the same (we do have accents, etc, in English >as well), but the languages are different? Hence Legolas would >recognise them as Elf-runes, but nevertheless it is still the Black >Speech. We do have a great case of confusion here between Elven script and Elven runes, don't we? (Tengwar vs. Cirith...) The characters on the One Ring are *not* Elf-runes! the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- My karma ran over my dogma. ###### From: "Prai Jei" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:16:48 +0100 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.137.49.142 X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 1035317842 25972 62.137.49.142 (22 Oct 2002 20:17:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2002 20:17:22 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96952 "Michael Lodge" wrote in message news:m4bt9.13575$DP6.43588@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does > he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK > (The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls > himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'. > > The mouth refers to Sauron again while he is talking 'But this time thou > hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what > comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the seat of Sauron the Great'. Logical conclusion: Sauron is not Sauron's "right name". ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:08:56 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1035324564 28205 203.100.22.231 (22 Oct 2002 22:09:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2002 22:09:24 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96969 In article , softrat@pobox.com says... > On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:59:46 +1000, Donald Shepherd > wrote: > > > >Couldn't it simply be a case similar to that of French and English, > >where the characters are the same (we do have accents, etc, in English > >as well), but the languages are different? Hence Legolas would > >recognise them as Elf-runes, but nevertheless it is still the Black > >Speech. > > We do have a great case of confusion here between Elven script and > Elven runes, don't we? (Tengwar vs. Cirith...) > > The characters on the One Ring are *not* Elf-runes! Probably. There's a reason I usually stay out of Elven debates. :) Care to fill me in on the difference? -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### From: Xaonon Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: 22 Oct 2002 22:18:27 GMT Organization: HappyFunballCo., an EAC subsidiary Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: machamp-59.dynamic.rpi.edu X-Mind-Control-Beam: Activated X-Irony-Meter: Running X-Evil-Atheist-Conspiracy: Nonexistent X-Geek-Code: GCS/S dpu s+:+ a19>? C++++ UL+>++++$ P++ L++>++++ E+ W++ N+++ o+ K+++ w--- O? M+ V? PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+ t++@* 5++ X++ R tv+ b++++ DI+ D+ G++ e>++++ h!>++ !r !y X-Face: $7Ee}n[ZyA(Kr>j8.~)C@,[b-#yCG NFb(%f3xP0Q'p9!&!.hjA9Si:6MnDUkP%E&>u]_Q7J&v User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uwm.edu!rpi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96978 Ned i bach , Donald Shepherd teithant i thiw hin: > In article , > softrat@pobox.com says... > > > We do have a great case of confusion here between Elven script and > > Elven runes, don't we? (Tengwar vs. Cirith...) > > > > The characters on the One Ring are *not* Elf-runes! > > Probably. There's a reason I usually stay out of Elven debates. :) > Care to fill me in on the difference? http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/ http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/ -- Xaonon, EAC Chief of Mad Scientists and informal BAAWA, aa #1821, Kibo #: 1 Visit The Nexus Of All Coolness (i.e. my site) at http://xaonon.dyndns.org/ "To fill a world with religion... is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used." -- Richard Dawkins ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:00:07 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.kc.rr.com 1035334769 65.26.218.54 (Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:59:29 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:59:29 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news-west.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96963 "the softrat" wrote in message news:mv3bruch7r1pc3oc8s6gnk87cnrjm1rl9j@4ax.com... > On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:59:46 +1000, Donald Shepherd > wrote: > > > >Couldn't it simply be a case similar to that of French and English, > >where the characters are the same (we do have accents, etc, in English > >as well), but the languages are different? Hence Legolas would > >recognise them as Elf-runes, but nevertheless it is still the Black > >Speech. > > We do have a great case of confusion here between Elven script and > Elven runes, don't we? (Tengwar vs. Cirith...) > > The characters on the One Ring are *not* Elf-runes! Maybe therein lies the answer to the confusion. Tolkien states that Orcs used a form of Cirth, which was most likely corrupted due to their lack of skill in such matters. AFAIK, no mention is made in Tolkien's writings of the use of script (tengwar) by Sauron or his servants (apart from the Ring inscription, of course). It seems possible that the Cirth used by Sauron's servants (and possibly Sauron himself on the rare occasion he may have had to write something), was wholly unsuitable for the ring inscription. Cirth, we know was mainly used for "inscribing names and brief memorials upon wood or stone" (appendix E). Hence Isildur's comment that there were "no letters in Mordor for such subtle work." If that was the case, Sauron would therefore use tengwar for such subtle work as a Ring inscription. In that it was not in common use in Mordor, it would have been used in its pure, uncorrupted form. Just a theory. Bill ###### Reply-To: "Doug" From: "Doug" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 15 Organization: HOME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 02:24:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.21.205.128 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1035339874 63.21.205.128 (Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:24:34 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:24:34 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96930 In news:Xns92AED80476BC3taser8hotmailcom@207.217.77.101, Taser typed: | The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but | written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that, | "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other | quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech. | | So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on | the Ring? | | Just wonderin' If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle earth afraid of the elves, which there are some who are. ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 02:51:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1035341505 65.26.218.54 (Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:51:45 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:51:45 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news-west.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96999 "Doug" wrote in message news:CLnt9.9429$071.849940@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > > If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle earth afraid of the elves, which there are > some who are. > I'm not sure I follow. Could you explain further? -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS ###### Reply-To: "Doug" From: "Doug" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 19 Organization: HOME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:34:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.21.205.41 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1035344099 63.21.205.41 (Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:34:59 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:34:59 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96932 In news:59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com, Bill O'Meally typed: | "Doug" wrote in message | news:CLnt9.9429$071.849940@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... || || If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle | earth afraid of the elves, which there are || some who are. || | I'm not sure I follow. Could you explain further? | -- | Bill | | "Wise fool" | Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS Sauron is a deceiver, so, he may be deceiving the people of middle earth to think that the Elves helped in forming the One Ring, which is a deception. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:46:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!telocity-west!TELOCITY!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96979 In article , Doug wrote: > In news:59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com, > Bill O'Meally typed: >| "Doug" wrote in message >| news:CLnt9.9429$071.849940@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... >|| >|| If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle >| earth afraid of the elves, which there are >|| some who are. >|| >| I'm not sure I follow. Could you explain further? >| -- >| Bill >| >| "Wise fool" >| Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS > > Sauron is a deceiver, so, he may be deceiving the people of middle earth to think that the Elves helped in forming > the One Ring, which is a deception. I don't quite understand this. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that Sauron wanted people to believe the Elves had the One Ring? -- AC ###### From: Michael Lodge User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:58:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.137.200.44 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1035367080 144.137.200.44 (Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:58:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:58:00 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97027 Prai Jei wrote: > "Michael Lodge" wrote in message > news:m4bt9.13575$DP6.43588@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > >>Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does >>he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK >>(The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls >>himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'. >> >>The mouth refers to Sauron again while he is talking 'But this time thou >>hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what >>comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the seat of Sauron the > > Great'. > > Logical conclusion: Sauron is not Sauron's "right name". > > Then Aragorn's comment wouldn't have been an argument against the S rune referring to Sauron then would it? ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3DB4C70F.E623B06C@nospam.solinas.org> Subject: Re: Re:Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:34:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1035293642 65.26.218.54 (Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:34:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:34:02 CDT Organization: RoadRunner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.rt.ru!rt.ru!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!news-east.rr.com!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97005 "T.T. Arvind" wrote in message news:ap3a8c$9oj$1@cpca7.uea.ac.uk... > > Taser did boldly declaim: > > > But Legolas clearly states that he did not, as a habit, use Elvish > > characters. This would imply to me that there was a written form of Black > > Speech. I just haven't found any specific references to it. > > What about this sentence in IV:7 ("Journey to the cross-roads"), in > describing the defaced statue of the king at the cross-roads: > > "Upon its knees and mighty chair, and all about the pedestal, were idle > scrawls mixed with the foul symbols that the maggot-folk of Mordor used." > > The reference to "foul symbols" seems to be a clear reference to a > separate script. Since the orcs of the dark tower (who presumably > made those scrawls) spoke a "debased form" of the black-speech, it seems > likely that their script was originally used for the black speech too. From Appendix E: "The Cirth in their older and simpler form spread eastward in the Second Age, and became known to many peoples, to Men and Dwarves, and even to Orcs, all of whom altered them to suit their purposes and according to their skill or lack of it". It sounds like the scrawling was probably a debased form of Cirth. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:59:04 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3db6f60b.199828408@news.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-now-vty27.as.wcom.net X-Trace: nntp-m01.news.aol.com 1035403314 1214 216.192.81.27 (23 Oct 2002 20:01:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:01:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97138 On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:16:48 +0100, "Prai Jei" wrote: >"Michael Lodge" wrote in message >news:m4bt9.13575$DP6.43588@news-server.bigpond.net.au... >> Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does >> he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK >> (The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls >> himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'. >> >> The mouth refers to Sauron again while he is talking 'But this time thou >> hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what >> comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the seat of Sauron the >Great'. > >Logical conclusion: Sauron is not Sauron's "right name". Logical, but wrong. His name had been "Sauron" for ages. Literally. Jim Deutch -- "We must go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin ###### Message-ID: <3DB721AD.62AE461F@acm.org> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:24:49 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.15 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1035411886 830 207.199.164.15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97221 Taser wrote: > ... I also wonder if the fact that > Sauron had been working so closely with the Elves at the time of the > forging of the Ring had accustomed him to writing Elvish, a habit he only > later changed. I don't think we know when the Black Speech was first written. You'd think Orcs had need of it in the First Age. That leads me to think it was more likely invented by Morgoth, which would mean that Sauron chose to use Elvish script rather than was forced to use it by lack of other choices. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### Message-ID: <3DB7237B.99FAB3F0@acm.org> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:32:31 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.15 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1035412347 830 207.199.164.15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97222 Michael Lodge wrote: > > Taser wrote: > > Another possible explanation for this is that Leolas didn't know as much > about Sauron as he though. Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does > he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK > (The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls > himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'. The Sil says the Eldar called him Sauron. It also gives the name Gorthaur. It may well be that Sauron's right name appears nowhere in the published works. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: Jim Muller Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:55:09 -0400 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbEOhnj1bQ8zizXISIWxhC3aRoYbirNst+fS2iLM+udyWUAZ5AI/rva X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2002 00:55:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97228 On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:34:59 GMT, "Doug" wrote: >In news:59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com, >Bill O'Meally typed: >| "Doug" wrote in message >| news:CLnt9.9429$071.849940@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... >|| If I were to venture a guess, he probably wanted the people of middle >| earth afraid of the elves, which there are >|| some who are. >Sauron is a deceiver, so, he may be deceiving the people of middle earth to think that the Elves helped in forming >the One Ring, which is a deception. In FOTR, Gandalf explains to someone, either Frodo or the Council, that the language was that of Mordor but the writing was Elvish because they had no writing for such things in Mordor. Most likely that Elven script was the best or only thing available at that time. ###### Reply-To: "Lotho Tighfield of Tookbank" From: "Lotho Tighfield of Tookbank" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:24:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.217.64.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1035444294 207.217.64.11 (Thu, 24 Oct 2002 00:24:54 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 00:24:54 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97066 "Kristian Damm Jensen" wrote : > > Too farfetched. Very few people would ever see Sauron, even fewer would > be close enough to recognize the writings on the ring. Of these very > few, all would be in the service of Sauron already. > > Why not stick to the explanation given by Isildur? > ### Perhaps Sauron took a perverse glee in using the Elves' own high-born language against them via a weapon of Utmost Evil ... At any rate that is what I have come to think, after reading through all the posts. === Lotho ! ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <1ASt9.15870$cG.286805@twister.kc.rr.com> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:29:07 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.kc.rr.com 1035466109 65.26.218.54 (Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:28:29 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:28:29 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!news-east.rr.com!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97110 "Lotho Tighfield of Tookbank" wrote in message news:afNt9.1865$6F4.172522@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > > "Kristian Damm Jensen" > wrote : > > > > Too farfetched. Very few people would ever see Sauron, even fewer would > > be close enough to recognize the writings on the ring. Of these very > > few, all would be in the service of Sauron already. > > > > Why not stick to the explanation given by Isildur? > > > > ### Perhaps Sauron took a perverse glee in using the Elves' own high-born > language against them via a weapon of Utmost Evil ... > > At any rate that is what I have come to think, after reading through all the > posts. Ok folks. Let's keep this straight. The *language* was Black Speech, not Elvish. The *characters* were Elven script or tengwar. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS ###### From: "Chocoholic" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:57:39 -0400 Organization: World Anarchists Syndicate Message-ID: References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97129 "Lotho Tighfield of Tookbank" wrote in message news:afNt9.1865$6F4.172522@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > > "Kristian Damm Jensen" > wrote : > > > > Too farfetched. Very few people would ever see Sauron, even fewer would > > be close enough to recognize the writings on the ring. Of these very > > few, all would be in the service of Sauron already. > > > > Why not stick to the explanation given by Isildur? > > > > ### Perhaps Sauron took a perverse glee in using the Elves' own high-born > language against them via a weapon of Utmost Evil ... > > At any rate that is what I have come to think, after reading through all the > posts. > If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated' them just yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as evil. The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember. Since Sauron planned on having everything 'Elvish' at his disposal in the near future, through that very Ring itself, he was just appropriating the Tengwar a bit early. But the plan didn't work as he expected... and as in most cases of greed denied he quickly came to hate what he could not have, the Elves and their culture. A case of 'sour grapes' as it were. I wonder if he considered removing the inscription somehow... :) ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:30:32 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3DB7237B.99FAB3F0@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o178.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1035484522 615 212.205.252.178 (24 Oct 2002 18:35:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:35:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.154.160.102.MISMATCH!newsfeed.eunet.at!news.netway.at!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97074 "Glenn Holliday" wrote in message news:3DB7237B.99FAB3F0@acm.org... > Michael Lodge wrote: > > > > Taser wrote: > > > > Another possible explanation for this is that Leolas didn't know as much > > about Sauron as he though. Aragorn replies to this saying 'Neither does > > he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken', yet in RotK > > (The Black Gate Opens), Gandalf speaks to someone who openly calls > > himself 'The Mouth of Sauron'. > > The Sil says the Eldar called him Sauron. It also gives the name > Gorthaur. It may well be that Sauron's right name appears nowhere > in the published works. In the Two Towers movie it seems that Orcs will call him "Zigur" when using the Black Tongue... In Tolkien's writings "Zigur" was Sauron's Numenorean name. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:01:06 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1035496907 14831 203.100.22.231 (24 Oct 2002 22:01:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2002 22:01:47 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97140 In article , Chocoholic@Cocoa.org says... > If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated' them just > yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as evil. > The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember. They do? Can I get a quote on this please? -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### From: NIL_AON_SPAM_AGAMdaithi_f@hotmail.com (David Flood) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Message-ID: <3db8771c.3846147@news1.eircom.net> References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:42:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.136.81 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eircom.net X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1035499454 159.134.136.81 (Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:44:14 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:44:14 BST Organization: Eircom.Net http://www.eircom.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97079 On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:01:06 +1000, Donald Shepherd wrote: >In article , Chocoholic@Cocoa.org >says... >> If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated' them just >> yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as evil. >> The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember. > >They do? Can I get a quote on this please? Shagrat and his friend called them that, IIRC. D. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:38:27 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> <3db8771c.3846147@news1.eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1035502748 14831 203.100.22.231 (24 Oct 2002 23:39:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2002 23:39:08 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97114 In article <3db8771c.3846147@news1.eircom.net>, NIL_AON_SPAM_AGAMdaithi_f@hotmail.com says... > On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:01:06 +1000, Donald Shepherd > wrote: > > >In article , Chocoholic@Cocoa.org > >says... > >> If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated' them just > >> yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as evil. > >> The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember. > > > >They do? Can I get a quote on this please? > > Shagrat and his friend called them that, IIRC. The one I immediately thought of was this one: 'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai, TTT But you seem to be referring to: `You may well put your thinking cap on, if you've got one. It's no laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think- there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great Siege. Something has slipped.' - Gorbag, The Choices of Master Samwise, TTT Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs, since this seems to be a fairly common occurance going by the goings on with the Orcs inside Mordor ("That's cursed Rebel-talk", etc). -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> <3db8771c.3846147@news1.eircom.net> Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.86 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1035533046 213.101.77.86 (Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:04:06 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:04:06 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-77-86.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:06:22 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97113 "Donald Shepherd" wrote: [snip] > > Shagrat and his friend called them that, IIRC. > > The one I immediately thought of was this one: > 'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the > pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can > through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are > dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai, > TTT > > But you seem to be referring to: > `You may well put your thinking cap on, if you've got one. It's no > laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, > as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think- > there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other > damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great > Siege. Something has slipped.' - Gorbag, The Choices of Master Samwise, > TTT > > Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs, since this seems to be a > fairly common occurance going by the goings on with the Orcs inside > Mordor ("That's cursed Rebel-talk", etc). I think the term was used with a wider application. During the Second Age, Sauron tried to become master of all Middle-earth, and he kept that ambition when he arose again. That meant that all people who resisted him were dismissed as rebels. I should say that the first statement you quote definitely contains a reference to those who resisted Sauron during the Second Age. Öjevind ###### From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> <3db8771c.3846147@news1.eircom.net> Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 35 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.71.210 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1035553580 ST000 64.252.71.210 (Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:46:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:46:20 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: Q[R_PJSCOHWMRUHXORHD]_LAPJYZTB\MV@BT]_MIJQR@EPIB_VUKAH_[MTX\IS[K[NGYJJFNOFZR_G[BUNTAOQLFE^TEHRPI]PZZRP_BMDSFQFL_]CBHXRWCMDCUZAZN@D_AKMNLEI]MWHCSXL^]NNC__CZFGSGHYYXWPFG@SCAVA]\FT\@B\RDGENSUQS^M Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:46:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!207.115.63.142!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97034 Donald Shepherd wrote ... >NIL_AON_SPAM_AGAMdaithi_f@hotmail.com says... >> , Donald Shepherd wrote: >> >, Chocoholic@Cocoa.org says... >> >> If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated' them just >> >> yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as evil. >> >> The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember. >> > >> >They do? Can I get a quote on this please? >> >> Shagrat and his friend called them that, IIRC. > > > >Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs, since this seems to be a >fairly common occurance going by the goings on with the Orcs inside >Mordor ("That's cursed Rebel-talk", etc). I always assumed that these referred to rebels against the 'rightful' authority of Sauron and Morgoth, i.e. primarily the Elves and Edain and their allies. In Rohan orcs of Moria, Saruman and Sauron all worked together so it seems unlikely that there was an additional batch of rebel orcs out there, especially since we se no other orcs whereas we see plenty of Rohirrim. In your second quote it seems even clearer that Gorbag is referring to elves and tarks as rebels. We know that the orcs think that Sam is either an elf or a tark so Gorbag's phrasing "any *other* damned rebel" seems to point to the rebels being the same type of creature as Sam, i.e. elves or tarks. Trade. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:21:29 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> <3db8771c.3846147@news1.eircom.net> <3DB91059.627F624C@ThisIsFake.fk> NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1035555737 14831 203.100.22.231 (25 Oct 2002 14:22:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Oct 2002 14:22:17 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97142 In article <3DB91059.627F624C@ThisIsFake.fk>, Troels@ThisIsFake.fk says... > Donald Shepherd wrote: > > > > The one I immediately thought of was this one: > > 'These lands are dangerous: full of foul rebels and > > brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai, TTT > > and > > > 'there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous > > than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the > > bad old times, since the Great Siege.' - Gorbag, The > > Choices of Master Samwise, TTT > > > > Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs > > Why on earth should it refer to rebel Orcs in Rohan? The in-fighting within the Orc troop. I'm probably wrong. I'm just explaining why I interpreted those passages this way. -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### From: NIL_AON_SPAM_AGAMdaithi_f@hotmail.com (David Flood) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Message-ID: <3db98007.2261789@news1.eircom.net> References: <59ot9.98600$om2.1659682@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <3DB661C1.7EE3F8AF@MOVEcgey.com> <3db8771c.3846147@news1.eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 54 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:40:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.136.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eircom.net X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1035567787 159.134.136.76 (Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:43:07 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:43:07 BST Organization: Eircom.Net http://www.eircom.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97076 On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:38:27 +1000, Donald Shepherd wrote: >In article <3db8771c.3846147@news1.eircom.net>, >NIL_AON_SPAM_AGAMdaithi_f@hotmail.com says... >> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:01:06 +1000, Donald Shepherd >> wrote: >> >> >In article , Chocoholic@Cocoa.org >> >says... >> >> If he was among them for so long it seems unlikely that he 'hated' them just >> >> yet. That came later. And remember, Sauron doesn't see _himself_ as evil. >> >> The Orcs call all the forces of the West 'Rebels' in LotR, remember. >> > >> >They do? Can I get a quote on this please? >> >> Shagrat and his friend called them that, IIRC. > >The one I immediately thought of was this one: >'Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the >pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can >through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are >dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.' - Grishnakh, The Uruk-Hai, >TTT > >But you seem to be referring to: >`You may well put your thinking cap on, if you've got one. It's no >laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, >as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think- >there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other >damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great >Siege. Something has slipped.' - Gorbag, The Choices of Master Samwise, >TTT > >Both of these I took to refer to rebel Orcs, since this seems to be a >fairly common occurance going by the goings on with the Orcs inside >Mordor ("That's cursed Rebel-talk", etc). I meant the second, but the first does as well ;) You've got to understand the imperialist mindset [1] - they have to provide themselves with a justification - ie not even Orcs are completely bad. So, the Free Peoples of the West are simply 'rebels', in the mindset of the servants of Mordor. David [1] and (of course) there is an Irish angle to this as well - from the first moment an Anglo-Norman expedition set foot on these shores, the native Irish were to be inculcated in English own minds as the "King's rebels" - a vital psychological victory in establishing a successful colony. ###### From: "Bob Thurman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Language: Why Elvish on the Ring? Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 04:11:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.219.145.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1035605511 67.219.145.96 (Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:11:51 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:11:51 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!90e7b4d1!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97255 I'm not an expert, but I seem to recall something. There was a line somewhere about the forging of the ring that went something like this.." he learned the craft (ring making) from the elves" this surprised me because I would have thought dwarves would have the craft. Since the craft was learned from the elves, elf writing would be a necessary part of the magic required! buzard "Taser" wrote in message news:Xns92AED80476BC3taser8hotmailcom@207.217.77.101... > The Ring-inscription is clearly described as being Black Speech, but > written in Elvish script. Why so? Legolas clearly states at one point that, > "'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'", and from other > quotes I assume there's a written form of the Black Speech. > > So why did Sauron choose to use Elvish script to write the inscription on > the Ring? > > Just wonderin'