From: kosullivan_xlib@my-deja.com (Kieran O' Sullivan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: 10 Oct 2002 09:19:46 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.218.102.30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1034266786 360 127.0.0.1 (10 Oct 2002 16:19:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2002 16:19:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96319 I was reading a rather old post on this group about the possibility that some of the rings of power survived after the destruction of the one. This got me wondering how Sauron got the one ring back from Numinor. According to the Silmarillion Sauron's body was destroyed in the destruction of Numinor and he returned to middle-earth as spirit. So where was the one. It couldn't have been with him but who would he give it to? More to the point who would give it back to him when he got back? I can't see the king of the 9 saying "thanks for the lend here's your ring back". The lord of the rings suggests that the 9 were slaves to the one but how would this spell be affected if one of the 9 were to take the ring. ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the One Ring get back from Numenor? Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:59:05 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 83 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96300 "Kieran O' Sullivan" wrote in message [snip] good question and unfortunately there is no satisfactory answer (at least not to me or atleast not the answer i like!) "Letters" is a book that puts together a large collection of letters written by Tolkien himself that answer questions posed to him by fans. here's is a post on Google from 1996 that asked all the same questions. i hope it will sum it up for you: ********************************************************* Date: 1996/07/19 David Poulton (by994@torfree.net) wrote: >Bob Figg (robptc@wantree.com.au) wrote: >: It says in The Silmarillion (of The Rings of Power and the Third Age) >: that Sauron "took up again the great ring" after returning to Middle >: Earth in the wake (excuse the pun) of Numenor's destruction. This appears >: to infer that he had not had in Numenor. Where it was in the meantime >: one can only wonder! Neither the "Akallabeth" nor "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" make any reference to Sauron leaving the Ring behind. Indeed, Letter #211 is most helpful in resolving this question: "Ar-Pharazon, as is told in the 'Downfall' or _Akallabeth_, conquered a terrified Sauron's *subjects* [emphasis JRRT's], not Sauron. Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning:he got free transport to Numenor! *He naturally had the One Ring* [emphasis mine], and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Numenoreans." [p. 279, _Letters_] >Anyway, this Tolkien FAQ that I read says that the Ring may have been in >Numenor with Sauron, The passage I cite above has JRRT pretty clearly stating that Sauron took the Ring with him to Numenor. >and that since he was Maia (which clearly have the ability to manipulate >objects of the world) he would be able to carry the Ring back to >Middle-Earth. Again from Letter #211, with JRRT writing about Sauron's return to Middle-earth after the Wreck of Numenor: "Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended." [p. 280] >However, as mentioned above, the Silmarillion says that Saruon returned >to his stronghold in Middle-Earth and took up his great ring. Which does *not* necessarily mean that he left it behind when he went to Numenor. >Also, wouldn't Ar-Pharazon (or some other member of the >King's Men in Numenor) have tried to take the Ring from Sauron? Once again from Letter #211: "I do not think Ar-Pharazon knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazon was not in communication with them." [p. 279] Even if the Numenoreans did know about the Ring, I doubt it very much that they would have been able to take it from Sauron. Look back on that first passage I cited: Sauron's surrender wasn't a capitulation, but rather a tactical move, and a dandy. Pat -- Patrick G. Matthews or Jennie Rosenbaum Matthews? I hope you can tell the difference :) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 19 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:09:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!telocity-west!TELOCITY!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96293 In article <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com>, Kieran O' Sullivan wrote: > I was reading a rather old post on this group about the possibility > that some of the rings of power survived after the destruction of the > one. This got me wondering how Sauron got the one ring back from > Numinor. According to the Silmarillion Sauron's body was destroyed in > the destruction of Numinor and he returned to middle-earth as spirit. > So where was the one. It couldn't have been with him but who would he > give it to? More to the point who would give it back to him when he > got back? I can't see the king of the 9 saying "thanks for the lend > here's your ring back". The lord of the rings suggests that the 9 > were slaves to the one but how would this spell be affected if one of > the 9 were to take the ring. Tolkien states in Letters that Sauron, even disembodied, could carry the Ruling Ring out of Numenor. He also essentially states that Sauron needed the Ruling Ring to dominate lesser minds. -- AC ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:38:17 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <9r9cqu4a6pk26836vb7078o1a2vqaf2snk@4ax.com> Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 49 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!216.65.160.204.MISMATCH!triton.net!smallfeed.triton.net!news-hub.kaist.ac.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.hananet.net!news-xfer.nuri.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96403 On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:14:41 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth kosullivan_xlib@my-deja.com (Kieran O' Sullivan) in article ><3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com>: >> According to the Silmarillion Sauron's body was destroyed in the >> destruction of Numinor and he returned to middle-earth as spirit. >> So where was the one. It couldn't have been with him but who would >> he give it to? > >... point, though, as discussed above: Sauron brought it back from Numenor >himself. > Steuard Jensen > I concur that that is what Tolkien said. However I believe that notion that Sauron's spirit transported the physical Ring to be one of the weakest of Tolkien's ideas, and would have been rejected if he had had the time to think the matter through. We may note that Tolkien, being human, did make mistakes, and, strangely believe it, acknowledged that he did. To me, a better solution would have been for Sauron to have concealed the ring in Mordor, probably in the Barad-Dûr, using all of his skill as a Maia. Then he would retrieve it later. Actually my first paragraph contains a solecism: 'Sauron's spirit'. Sauron *is* a spirit who had embodied himself. In Numenor, his embodiment was destroyed but not his essential spiritual self. That essence is what returned to Mordor 'on a dark wind' and re-embodied itself and retrieved the Ring. When the Ring was destroyed in the War of the Ring, so much of Sauron's essence was destroyed that he would forever be impotent. Notice the different situation here between the Fall of Numenor and the Destruction of the Ring. PS. Sauron was also not omnipotent. After his bodily dissolution in the War of the Last Alliance, he could not tell whether the Ring had been destroyed or not, probably not, but it was lost perhaps in the depths of Ulmo's Ocean and so irretrievable. Ultimately he discovered from Smeagol that that was not true. the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- I don't have a solution, but I admire the problem ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> <9r9cqu4a6pk26836vb7078o1a2vqaf2snk@4ax.com> Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:09:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.48.198.168 X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-Trace: news1.news.adelphia.net 1034302191 24.48.198.168 (Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:09:51 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:09:51 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!router1.news.adelphia.net!news1.news.adelphia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96413 "the softrat" wrote in message news:9r9cqu4a6pk26836vb7078o1a2vqaf2snk@4ax.com... > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:14:41 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > >Quoth kosullivan_xlib@my-deja.com (Kieran O' Sullivan) in article > ><3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com>: > >> According to the Silmarillion Sauron's body was destroyed in the > >> destruction of Numinor and he returned to middle-earth as spirit. > >> So where was the one. It couldn't have been with him but who would > >> he give it to? > > > > >... point, though, as discussed above: Sauron brought it back from Numenor > >himself. > > Steuard Jensen > > > I concur that that is what Tolkien said. However I believe that notion > that Sauron's spirit transported the physical Ring to be one of the > weakest of Tolkien's ideas, and would have been rejected if he had had > the time to think the matter through. We may note that Tolkien, being > human, did make mistakes, and, strangely believe it, acknowledged that > he did. > > To me, a better solution would have been for Sauron to have concealed > the ring in Mordor, probably in the Barad-Dûr, using all of his skill > as a Maia. Then he would retrieve it later. > ok, now i'm scared. first you make me laugh on another post and now you sum up perfectly how i feel about the Sauron/Ring/Numenor issue. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> <9r9cqu4a6pk26836vb7078o1a2vqaf2snk@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 49 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1034305525 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:05:25 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:05:25 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: Vdrp9-13508-H4-6423@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 18b500ea 56fce033 f9dad335 18360cc1 41e78774 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 03:05:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96373 Quoth softrat@pobox.com in article <9r9cqu4a6pk26836vb7078o1a2vqaf2snk@4ax.com>: > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >Sauron brought [the Ring] back from Numenor himself. > I concur that that is what Tolkien said. However I believe that > notion that Sauron's spirit transported the physical Ring to be one > of the weakest of Tolkien's ideas, and would have been rejected if > he had had the time to think the matter through. Why? I agree that Tolkien did change his mind and acknowledge mistakes in many cases, certainly, but I don't see what makes this one of them. We know for a fact that the Ainur could manipulate the physical world even without bodies: otherwise, they couldn't ever create a physical body in the first place. I generally believe that they shaped Arda directly, too (rather than taking the physical form of a gigantic bulldozer, for example). No, we don't know how exactly that worked. We _do_ know (from the "Osanwe-kenta") that Ainur who had become "habituated" to a physical form grew dependent on it, finding it "increasingly difficult to operate without the [body]." Referring to Sauron, the essay says that just as Melkor was eventually unable to master his visible form and became bound in a body as hideous as his mind, "So it was also with some of [Melkor's] greatest servents, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their formar habitations". Note that at the time of the Akalabeth, Sauron had not quite reached that stage in his decline: while in Numenor, he was still fair to look upon. Why, then, is it unreasonable to think that he still retained some ability to directly manipulate the physical world in a small way, however much of a strain it might have been? Only after the Akalabeth was Sauron bound to a visibly evil form: after his previous body had been destroyed, and after he had (probably) expended great effort to bring the Ring back with him. I have wondered in the past whether the effort of bringing back the Ring contributed to his inability to take a pleasing form. So, what part of this scenario do you object to? It all feels very natural to me, and it has the additional advantage of not contradicting the only direct statement Tolkien ever made on the issue. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:04:25 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> <9r9cqu4a6pk26836vb7078o1a2vqaf2snk@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96411 On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 03:05:25 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >So, what part of this scenario do you object to? It all feels very >natural to me, and it has the additional advantage of not >contradicting the only direct statement Tolkien ever made on the >issue. :) > To me it appears inconsistant that spirit-Sauron could carry a physical Ring and not retain his physical body. Especially after he had used so much of his power to make the Ring. I just feel happier with *my* solution. I notice that after the initial creation and shaping of Arda, the Ainur do not fly around or move physical objects unless they are embodied (Ulmo). They get other critters to move stuff for them. Why does Orome *ride* a horse? the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- With a running leap, one can take offence at almost anything. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:11:01 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96394 Kieran O' Sullivan wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >This got me wondering how Sauron got the one ring back from >Numinor. According to the Silmarillion Sauron's body was destroyed in N.B. Numenor not Numinor. (C.S. Lewis popularized this spelling error, I think.) >the destruction of Numinor and he returned to middle-earth as spirit. Others have answered this pretty adequately, I think. >So where was the one. It couldn't have been with him D6. Where was the One Ring while Sauron was in Númenor? On his finger. "He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans." [L #211 (279)] -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com "US-Germany relations slide to an all-time low" -- /Cortland Standard/ headline, 24 Sep 2002 I guess 1917-1918 and 1941-1945 don't count. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:19:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96397 In article , Stan Brown wrote: > Kieran O' Sullivan wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>This got me wondering how Sauron got the one ring back from >>Numinor. According to the Silmarillion Sauron's body was destroyed in > > N.B. Numenor not Numinor. (C.S. Lewis popularized this spelling > error, I think.) > >>the destruction of Numinor and he returned to middle-earth as spirit. > > Others have answered this pretty adequately, I think. > >>So where was the one. It couldn't have been with him > > D6. Where was the One Ring while Sauron was in Númenor? > > On his finger. "He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon > dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans." [L #211 > (279)] I agree. Nowhere did Tolkien state otherwise, and there wasn't any revision of the notion of Sauron taking the Ring to Numenor. I, myself, find it very unlikely that Sauron would have left the Ruling Ring, which he had imparted so much of his native strength into, anywhere in Middle Earth. I really can't see Sauron being willingly parted from the Ring for any reason. -- AC ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> <9r9cqu4a6pk26836vb7078o1a2vqaf2snk@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 46 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1034352719 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:11:59 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:11:59 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: jLCp9-17355-H4-7468@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 82b02908 86eb3ce2 988c455b a90888b9 b0fdb5aa Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:11:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!128.135.12.170.MISMATCH!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96370 Quoth softrat@pobox.com in article : > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >So, what part of this scenario do you object to? It all feels very > >natural to me... > To me it appears inconsistant that spirit-Sauron could carry a > physical Ring and not retain his physical body. I can think of two possible reasons for that. First, his body might well have been destroyed along with the island of Numenor: I recall Tolkien saying that the severity of the reaction against the whole island caught Sauron by surprise. Why bring back a "killed" body? Second, a body weighs a lot more than a Ring. If there was a significant cost in power or effort involved when Sauron tried to transport matter at that point, it's possible that a Ring was all he could manage. > I just feel happier with *my* solution. Not much I can say to that. :) > I notice that after the initial creation and shaping of Arda, the > Ainur do not fly around or move physical objects unless they are > embodied (Ulmo). They get other critters to move stuff for them. So, how did the Valar make all their "security fixes" during the Hiding of Valinor? _Did_ Aule turn himself into a giant bulldozer to build up the Pelori? Did they marshall tens of thousands of Elvish laborers to carry giant stones? It feels more natural to me to think that they still had the ability to directly affect the physical world, but that either they increasingly chose not to or they found it increasingly difficult. As for moving physical objects, the fog that Galadriel apparently sent to hide the ride of the Eotheod might even count in that regard. If Galadriel can move a mass of concealing and invigorating fog, why couldn't Sauron move a Ring? > Why does Orome *ride* a horse? How much fun would it be to hunt evil things by floating, disembodied, next to it and then tweaking its heart to stop beating? Nah, it's gore and bloodshed all the way. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Lines: 17 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 12 Oct 2002 00:39:30 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-cu) Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!208.49.253.98!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96366 In article , "The American" writes: >> To me, a better solution would have been for Sauron to have concealed >> the ring in Mordor, probably in the Barad-Dûr, using all of his skill >> as a Maia. Then he would retrieve it later. >> > >ok, now i'm scared. >first you make me laugh on another post and now you sum up perfectly how i >feel about the Sauron/Ring/Numenor issue. > That reading is supported by the published text which states that upon his return to Mordor, he took up his Ring again. Russ ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:56:03 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> <9r9cqu4a6pk26836vb7078o1a2vqaf2snk@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 49 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96398 Steuard Jensen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Quoth softrat@pobox.com in article >: >> (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >> >So, what part of this scenario do you object to? It all feels very >> >natural to me... > >> To me it appears inconsistant that spirit-Sauron could carry a >> physical Ring and not retain his physical body. I thought I had addressed this in the latest round of revisions to the FAQ of the Rings, but I see that I did not. I'll remedy that soon. >I can think of two possible reasons for that. [snip] I can suggest a third. We already know that the Ring had limited power of movement: it could slip on or off a finger unexpectedly. Perhaps that power was somehow in rapport with Sauron's own will, and the two together were sufficient to carry it across an ocean. But really I think the explanation is the simpler one that was given in an earlier article: All the Ainur could manipulate the physical world by mere will. >How much fun would it be to hunt evil things by floating, disembodied, >next to it and then tweaking its heart to stop beating? Hmm, this feels too much like black magic. One of the many minor themes of Tolkien's world is that there are certain rules that bind the good guys. Think of Faramir's "I would not trap even an Orc with a lie",(*) for instance. The general principle is that the end does _not_ justify the means. (*) paraphrased from memory, from his first long conversation with Frodo -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:59:35 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96396 Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , "The American" > writes: > >>> To me, a better solution would have been for Sauron to have concealed >>> the ring in Mordor, probably in the Barad-Dûr, using all of his skill >>> as a Maia. Then he would retrieve it later. >>> >> >>ok, now i'm scared. >>first you make me laugh on another post and now you sum up perfectly how i >>feel about the Sauron/Ring/Numenor issue. >> > >That reading is supported by the published text which states that upon his >return to Mordor, he took up his Ring again. "Took up" is not the same as "retrieved from its hiding place". We "take up" the study of calculus, and after a vacation we take it up again. We have Tolkien's own words in Letter #211 that Sauron had the Ring with him in Númenor. Surely there is no room for argument on that point? (If you suggest that it would have been possible for Tolkien to have Sauron leave the Ring in Barad-dûr, I cannot deny that. But it would have been a serious plot hole. Sauron would have had no reason to do such a thing, with the consequent risk that while he spent decades in Númenor one of his servants might decide to claim the unguarded Ring -- or if it was guarded, one of the guards might.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 02:00:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96390 In article <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com>, Russ wrote: > In article , "The American" > writes: > >>> To me, a better solution would have been for Sauron to have concealed >>> the ring in Mordor, probably in the Barad-Dûr, using all of his skill >>> as a Maia. Then he would retrieve it later. >>> >> >>ok, now i'm scared. >>first you make me laugh on another post and now you sum up perfectly how i >>feel about the Sauron/Ring/Numenor issue. >> > > That reading is supported by the published text which states that upon his > return to Mordor, he took up his Ring again. But it's already been established that the phrase "took up the Ring" is not nearly as definitive as it sounds. "Took up" doesn't necessarily mean picked up his Ring where he left it, somewhere in Mordor or there-abouts. I think of it this way. Sauron was obviously surprised by the Downfall, so he clearly didn't expect that kind of calamity that occured to Numenor. Why would he leave the most precious of his possessions, the object which he had imparted so much of his native strength into, back in Middle Earth? -- AC ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:15:40 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96351 On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 02:00:32 GMT, AC wrote: > >But it's already been established that the phrase "took up the Ring" is not >nearly as definitive as it sounds. "Took up" doesn't necessarily mean >picked up his Ring where he left it, somewhere in Mordor or there-abouts. > Yeah: I done herd of a woman what 'took up' with a man. Whuht *did* Suaron do wid dat Ring ennyhau? Ali ibn Whitbridge the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Some people have one of those days. I have one of those lives. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 24 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1034444294 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 12 Oct 2002 12:38:14 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 12:38:14 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: a6Zp9-25623-H4-10773@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 542c359e 62dc9e99 41356a8a 5780d988 6ea66b46 Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:38:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96435 Quoth mcresq@aol.com (Russ) in article <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com>: > That reading is supported by the published text which states that > upon his return to Mordor, he took up his Ring again. To quote the FAQ on this topic: A passage from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in The Silmarillion is sometimes cited as evidence that, contrary to the statements above, Sauron left the Ring in Mordor before going to Numenor. In that essay, after Sauron returned to Middle-earth and rebuilt his body, "He took up again the great Ring". However, this is not a contradiction: according to the Oxford English Dictionary, one definition of "take up" is c. With special obj., implying a purpose of using in some way: as, to take up one's pen, to proceed or begin to write; to take up a book (i.e. with the purpose to read); to take up the (or one's) cross (see CROSS n. 4, 10): to take up ARMS, [etc.] In the context of "Of the Rings of Power", this definition fits very well. "Took up" can mean a good bit more than "picked up". Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:25:47 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o206.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1034451022 8873 212.205.252.206 (12 Oct 2002 19:30:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:30:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.netway.at!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96429 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.18114c0ee5e499a98a135@news.odyssey.net... > Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >In article , "The American" > > writes: > > > >>ok, now i'm scared. > >>first you make me laugh on another post and now you sum up perfectly how i > >>feel about the Sauron/Ring/Numenor issue. > >> > > > >That reading is supported by the published text which states that upon his > >return to Mordor, he took up his Ring again. > > "Took up" is not the same as "retrieved from its hiding place". We > "take up" the study of calculus, and after a vacation we take it up > again. > > We have Tolkien's own words in Letter #211 that Sauron had the Ring > with him in Númenor. Surely there is no room for argument on that > point? There's pretty much room for argument about everything that wasn't published during Tolkien's lifetime... But yes, at the time he was writing that letter, he envisioned Sauron taking the ring with him, no argument there. And if he was actually *using* the Great Ring in Numenor, as Tolkien claimed in that letter, how did he take it up again, as if he hadn't once abandoned its use? > (If you suggest that it would have been possible for Tolkien to have > Sauron leave the Ring in Barad-dûr, I cannot deny that. But it would > have been a serious plot hole. Sauron would have had no reason to do > such a thing, with the consequent risk that while he spent decades > in Númenor one of his servants might decide to claim the unguarded > Ring -- or if it was guarded, one of the guards might.) Things in Middle-earth can be guarded without the need for guards... Think of hidden vaults, keys, passwords, etc, etc... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:27:28 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o206.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 1034451123 8914 212.205.252.206 (12 Oct 2002 19:32:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:32:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.completel.de!news.netway.at!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96432 "AC" wrote in message news:slrnaqf0id.f3p.spam@ts1.alberni.net... > In article <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com>, Russ wrote: > > > > That reading is supported by the published text which states that upon his > > return to Mordor, he took up his Ring again. > > But it's already been established that the phrase "took up the Ring" is not > nearly as definitive as it sounds. "Took up" doesn't necessarily mean > picked up his Ring where he left it, somewhere in Mordor or there-abouts. > > I think of it this way. Sauron was obviously surprised by the Downfall, so > he clearly didn't expect that kind of calamity that occured to Numenor. Why > would he leave the most precious of his possessions, the object which he had > imparted so much of his native strength into, back in Middle Earth? He was being taken to Numenor as a prisoner - though he could hope to escape from there, perhaps he wouldn't want to risk the ring being taken from him by Ar-Pharazon... Aris Katsaris ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:07:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96449 In article , Aris Katsaris wrote: > He was being taken to Numenor as a prisoner - though he could hope to escape > from there, perhaps he wouldn't want to risk the ring being taken from him by > Ar-Pharazon... But we know that Sauron wasn't exactly an unwilling prisoner. He saw an opportunity. For Sauron to leave the Ring behind means that Sauron must have forseen some substantial risk in Numenor. We know he was taken surprise by the Downfall, so it seems clear that he had no foreknowledge of the intervention of Eru. With that in mind, and coupled with Tolkien's own statement that Sauron did have the Ring in Numenor, I can't see any reason that Sauron would not have actually had the Ruling Ring with him. By that point, he relied upon it for the domination of other wills, and it seems pretty certain (to me, at least) that it was Sauron was using the Ring to work his way up to Ar-Pharazon's chief advisor. I cannot see Sauron leaving the Ring in Middle Earth, and when I read the Letter, it clinches it. Sauron had the Ring in Numenor, and even as a disembodied spirit, was capable of carrying it from the Downfall. The Ainur obviously had the ability to effect the physical world, and the Ring was no mere physical object, but something linked to Sauron himself. -- AC ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: 12 Oct 2002 21:21:42 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1034457702 21776233 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96473 On 12 paz 2002, "Aris Katsaris" scribbled loosely: > > Things in Middle-earth can be guarded without the need for guards... > Think of hidden vaults, keys, passwords, etc, etc... > > Retina scans ;) ... -- Pradera --- The Holy Document of Vatican Law cannot be changed! So sayeth the spider. http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: "Chocoholic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:38:10 -0400 Organization: World Anarchists Syndicate Message-ID: References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96446 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:ao9t8d$8l9$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > > > There's pretty much room for argument about everything that wasn't published > during Tolkien's lifetime... But yes, at the time he was writing that letter, he > envisioned Sauron taking the ring with him, no argument there. > > And if he was actually *using* the Great Ring in Numenor, as Tolkien claimed > in that letter, how did he take it up again, as if he hadn't once abandoned its > use? > When he had created a new body with a finger to wear it 'took it up' again? ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.70.242.113 From: "Adrian Whapkaplet" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 01:25:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1034472313 24.70.95.207 (Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:25:13 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:25:13 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96469 "AC" wrote in message news:slrnaqdr1a.tnv.spam@ts1.alberni.net... > In article , Stan Brown wrote: > > Kieran O' Sullivan wrote in > > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>This got me wondering how Sauron got the one ring back from > >>Numinor. According to the Silmarillion Sauron's body was destroyed in > > > > N.B. Numenor not Numinor. (C.S. Lewis popularized this spelling > > error, I think.) > > > >>the destruction of Numinor and he returned to middle-earth as spirit. > > > > Others have answered this pretty adequately, I think. > > > >>So where was the one. It couldn't have been with him > > > > D6. Where was the One Ring while Sauron was in Númenor? > > > > On his finger. "He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon > > dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans." [L #211 > > (279)] > > I agree. Nowhere did Tolkien state otherwise, and there wasn't any revision > of the notion of Sauron taking the Ring to Numenor. I, myself, find it very > unlikely that Sauron would have left the Ruling Ring, which he had imparted > so much of his native strength into, anywhere in Middle Earth. I really > can't see Sauron being willingly parted from the Ring for any reason. > But if he could control it without being in physical contact with it then why did he let Isildur take it? If his spirit was able to pick it up and lift it out of the wreckage of Numenor why would he not lift it up before Isildur could grab it? ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:45:25 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96462 Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >And if he was actually *using* the Great Ring in Numenor, as Tolkien claimed >in that letter, how did he take it up again, as if he hadn't once abandoned its >use? He didn't use the Ring while his spirit was returning to Middle- earth. And there was most likely some period of time when all his attention was focused on recreating a body. Only when that was done did he turn his attention to dominating Middle-earth again. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor References: <3d2cc6d8.0210100819.200f84ae@posting.google.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 02:24:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96454 In article , Adrian Whapkaplet wrote: > But if he could control it without being in physical contact with it then > why did he let Isildur take it? If his spirit was able to pick it up and > lift it out of the wreckage of Numenor why would he not lift it up before > Isildur could grab it? Tolkien never provided an answer to that particular question, other than to say that Sauron's spirit fled. That may be enough of an answer in and of itself. The fact remains that Tolkien states clearly that Sauron had the Ring in Numenor, and was also clear that Sauron would have had no difficulty carrying the Ring away. When Isildur took the Ring, Sauron had fled from his physical body. -- AC ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:55:51 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96461 I conjectured in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >He didn't use the Ring while his spirit was returning to Middle- >earth. And there was most likely some period of time when all his >attention was focused on recreating a body. Only when that was done >did he turn his attention to dominating Middle-earth again. Page 292 of "Of the Rings of Power" confirms this: "[In Mordor] now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power. ..." -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.70.242.113 From: "Adrian Whapkaplet" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20021011203930.10684.00002857@mb-cu.aol.com> Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:55:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1034524516 24.70.95.207 (Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:55:16 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:55:16 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96468 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1812aabd5703b51e98a143@news.odyssey.net... > I conjectured in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >He didn't use the Ring while his spirit was returning to Middle- > >earth. And there was most likely some period of time when all his > >attention was focused on recreating a body. Only when that was done > >did he turn his attention to dominating Middle-earth again. > > Page 292 of "Of the Rings of Power" confirms this: > > "[In Mordor] now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for > himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had > departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of > Númenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in > power. ..." > It doesnt answer the question of how he was able to control a physical object, the Ring, while in spirit form at the time of the fall of Numenor but when the ring is cut off his hand by Isildur he is unable to do so. I agree there is a lot of evidence to suggest that he had the ring but there are inconsistencies in this position. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How did the one ring get back from numinor References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 38 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1034535720 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:02:00 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:02:00 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: Iqjq9-33849-H4-12844@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: ee9cc2f1 1c0220de ec8a1282 360a9c92 bee29905 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:02:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:96492 Quoth "Adrian Whapkaplet" in article : > "Stan Brown" wrote: > > "[In Mordor] now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for > > himself a new shape... He took up again the great Ring..." > It doesnt answer the question of how he was able to control a > physical object, the Ring, while in spirit form at the time of the > fall of Numenor but when the ring is cut off his hand by Isildur he > is unable to do so. There is quite a bit of evidence that having a "habitual" body destroyed can be quite a blow to one of the Ainur. Even without blaming that specific cause, however, it's clear that Sauron's "available power" dropped substantially between his "incarnations". Consider the time that it took him to rebuild his body each time. After the Akalabeth in SA 3319, Sauron had rebuilt his power enough to take Minas Ithil 110 years later in 3429; it's clear that he must have reformed his body much earlier than that to allow time for him to rebuild his armies. After being overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad in essentially TA 0, it took until TA 1050 for the shadow to begin to fall on Greenwood: the first sign of Sauron's return. Even if he waited a while before making his move, this is still a full order of magnitude longer than the time it took him to make all-out war the previous time. I would be amazed if that didn't reflect increased difficulty in rebuilding a body, and I suspect that would be associated with increased difficulty in manipulating the physical world in general. Whether you blame that loss of "operative power" on being "killed" multiple times or on other causes (spending power on controling subordinates, for example), it seems pretty clear that it was real. Given that, why should it be surprising that Sauron was able to carry the Ring back to Mordor within a year after the Akalabeth but wasn't able to drag it away from Isildur immediately after his next physical death? Steuard Jensen