From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: question about the reproduction of orcs Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:46:11 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 31 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline40.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033556132 3981 131.246.65.40 (2 Oct 2002 10:55:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:55:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95664 Hi! I recently read the "slimy" FAQs, and reading the passage "All of these suggested origins still support the notion that Orcs reproduced in the same manner as other races (and therefore that there were female Orcs). This is explicitly discussed in Text X of "Myths Transformed", which states that" I ask myself if there have to be compellingly female orcs. It might be an evil thought, but isn't it possible that female thralls (of elvish or human origin) are used as "breeding machines" for the orc population? I mean, many of the male captives have been forced to work in the mines (in the first age. e.g. after the sack of Nargothrond), but wouldn't the females be of lesser use for this purpose. So what have they been taken captive for? As female orcs have never been mentioned and it is just stated that they multiply "after the manner of the Children Of Illuvatar" the whole thing doesn't seem impossible to me. Yet: this would imply that all Orcs are the result of an interbreeding, or else the "orc-genes" must be so dominant that any "classic" orc-child has exceptionally orc-characteristics, and that the real interbreeding presupposes great knowledge in this matter. -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### Lines: 2 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 02 Oct 2002 15:10:44 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs Message-ID: <20021002111044.00258.00006624@mb-ce.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95667 An orc man will fuck pretty much anything that's stacked and has a great ass and a clean amber hairy pussy. ###### From: cee@eatspammindspring.com (C. M. Malm) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 03:42:56 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 59 Message-ID: <3d9bb673.5738000@news.mindspring.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.27.44.82 X-Server-Date: 3 Oct 2002 03:46:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95763 On Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:46:11 +0200, "Michael Graf" took keyboard in hand and typed: >I ask myself if there have to be compellingly female orcs. It might be >an evil thought, but isn't it possible that female thralls (of elvish >or human origin) are used as "breeding machines" for the orc >population? Well, it does seem logical that if Morgoth--as we are informed at one point--"made" (created isn't really the proper word) the race of the Orcs by corrupting Elves, at some point "breeding" would need to happen. In fact, if the goal is to have an army of humanoids, breeding a strain of Orcs from a few captured Elves would probably be easier than corrupting numerous individual Elves. The major problem with such a breeding program, however, is Tolkien's assertion that female elves can't survive being raped. Of course, it's possible that they were corrupted to the point that they were willing to participate. It does seem rather odd, though, that Morgoth could successfully manage to "corrupt" (whatever that involves) the captured female Elves without driving out their spirits, when merely being raped seems to be sufficient to produce that result. >I mean, many of the male captives have been forced to work >in the mines (in the first age. e.g. after the sack of Nargothrond), >but wouldn't the females be of lesser use for this purpose. So what >have they been taken captive for? As female >orcs have never been mentioned and it is just stated that they >multiply "after the manner of the Children Of Illuvatar" the whole >thing doesn't >seem impossible to me. Yet: this would imply that all Orcs are the >result of an interbreeding, or else the "orc-genes" must be so >dominant that any "classic" orc-child has exceptionally >orc-characteristics, and that the real interbreeding presupposes great >knowledge in this matter. Considering that Saruman is supposed to have bred a special daylight-resistant strain of Orcs by crossing them with Men (fortunately for Saruman, human women can survive being raped), I doubt that the regular mode of Orc reproduction involved this kind of cross-breeding. Is it not possible that Orcs keep their females secluded, perhaps in a form of harem, and that is why we never see them? Treating women like possessions rather than people seems like something the Orcs' culture would approve of. Cee --- remove spamblocker to reply "It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one." "In all the long wars with the Dark Tower treason has ever been our greatest foe." - Gandalf (The Fellowship of the Ring) ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:22:13 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <20021002111044.00258.00006624@mb-ce.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline50.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033639356 5973 131.246.65.50 (3 Oct 2002 10:02:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:02:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95751 Hi! "Mark Constantino" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:20021002111044.00258.00006624@mb-ce.aol.com... > An orc man will fuck pretty much anything that's stacked and has a great ass > and a clean amber hairy pussy. So that's why orcs look like this... -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:51:28 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <3d9bb673.5738000@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline50.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033639357 5973 131.246.65.50 (3 Oct 2002 10:02:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:02:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95752 Hi! "C. M. Malm" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3d9bb673.5738000@news.mindspring.com... > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:46:11 +0200, "Michael Graf" > took keyboard in hand and typed: > >I ask myself if there have to be compellingly female orcs. It might be > >an evil thought, but isn't it possible that female thralls (of elvish > >or human origin) are used as "breeding machines" for the orc > >population? [snip] > The major problem with such > a breeding program, however, is Tolkien's assertion that female elves > can't survive being raped. Of course, it's possible that they were > corrupted to the point that they were willing to participate. It does > seem rather odd, though, that Morgoth could successfully manage to > "corrupt" (whatever that involves) the captured female Elves without > driving out their spirits, when merely being raped seems to be > sufficient to produce that result. ...And that could mean that the "creation" (and preservation) of the orc race can't be availed by the corruption of male and female elves, but only by twisting male elves and mate them with human women. Interesting thought... > Considering that Saruman is supposed to have bred a special > daylight-resistant strain of Orcs by crossing them with Men > (fortunately for Saruman, human women can survive being raped), I > doubt that the regular mode of Orc reproduction involved this kind of > cross-breeding. But as I said, perhaps it's not enough to let an orc-man "have his way" with a human female to create a new orc-men or men-orc- race. It might be enough to "produce" a standard-orc. > Is it not possible that Orcs keep their females secluded, perhaps in a > form of harem, and that is why we never see them? Treating women like > possessions rather than people seems like something the Orcs' culture > would approve of. Possible, yes, but IMHO it's unlikely that nobody in SIL/LOTR talks about female orcs, or knows about them. I think it's rather odd that Tolkien wrote that they multiply in the same way as Elves anf Men, but that he never mentioned orc-ladies. -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs References: <3d9bb673.5738000@news.mindspring.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 16:19:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95786 In article , Michael Graf wrote: > > Possible, yes, but IMHO it's unlikely that nobody in SIL/LOTR talks > about female orcs, or knows about them. I think it's rather odd that > Tolkien wrote that they multiply in the same way as Elves anf Men, but > that he never mentioned orc-ladies. The closest we ever get to seeing actual Orc behavior is during Pippin and Merry's captivity and during Frodo's captivity in Cirith Ungol. Orcs were, throughout the rest of the mythology, little more than cannon fodder. We learn nothing about their societies, and can gleam only the most limited knowledge about their social structure. Some were clearly literate (Azog for instance) and there must have been some fairly good material culture to fashion swords, shields and such. But beyond that, we don't have any real detail as to the life of the average Orc, how he or she lives, and what family life is like. I'm not being facetious here. I just think you're asking for far more detail than Tolkien was particularly willing to write about them. We know they were likely corrupted Children of Illuvatar, that they multiplied after the manner of Elves and Men, they had a material culture of some advancement, and disliked sunlight. So to start questioning the existence of female orcs based upon the fact that Tolkien never mentions them is a very large stretch, considering he goes into very little detail on Orcs in any respect. -- AC ###### From: "Bratt" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d9bb673.5738000@news.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-GC-Trace: gv1-JOv/JGOR+9HgX0OTndPpQuc3538z4YZrgccVjmTl6dhqF1/ajnn+ly0xA== Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 12:07:19 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing Lines: 17 X-Trace: sv3-S21JvuU4S5Ems98FZ9tLrCgrG7mS25FRK3cnqQ2KmVT5xod0KkiPs+S3CI3IP/OE1qoswnTo4VftCrT!06lKP2DzxjUtRn4JF2Q+Dr0EKARXwvYqFUsjk2pZitYqJ/1wEqaj/xllyktyo28nw1cwUxDxDAka!ee4519neQNhlDmP3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:07:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95743 > > Possible, yes, but IMHO it's unlikely that nobody in SIL/LOTR talks > about female orcs, or knows about them. I think it's rather odd that > Tolkien wrote that they multiply in the same way as Elves anf Men, but > that he never mentioned orc-ladies. > i was wondering if it could be the way that Mules are produced? a.. Mules are hybrids, and therefore sterile and cannot be bred to each other to produce more mules. (http://horses.about.com/library/weekly/aa062401a.htm) could it be that there weren't females that COULD reproduce and either destroyed at birth or were as the male orcs? ###### From: cee@eatspammindspring.com (C. M. Malm) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 04:03:14 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 84 Message-ID: <3d9d0da0.19961355@news.mindspring.com> References: <3d9bb673.5738000@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.27.44.15 X-Server-Date: 4 Oct 2002 04:02:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95866 On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:51:28 +0200, "Michael Graf" took keyboard in hand and typed: >> The major problem with such >> a breeding program, however, is Tolkien's assertion that female >elves >> can't survive being raped. Of course, it's possible that they were >> corrupted to the point that they were willing to participate. It >does >> seem rather odd, though, that Morgoth could successfully manage to >> "corrupt" (whatever that involves) the captured female Elves without >> driving out their spirits, when merely being raped seems to be >> sufficient to produce that result. > >...And that could mean that the "creation" (and preservation) of the >orc race can't be availed by the corruption of male and female elves, >but only by twisting male elves and mate them with human women. >Interesting thought... That is an interesting thought. Definitely something twisted enough for Morgoth to have come up with. It would also help explain the Orcs' mortality, if in fact they are mortals. Does anyone know whether/what Tolkien decided about the mortal/immortal status of Orcs? (I know that there was never any firm conclusion about whether or not they have souls.) >> Considering that Saruman is supposed to have bred a special >> daylight-resistant strain of Orcs by crossing them with Men >> (fortunately for Saruman, human women can survive being raped), I >> doubt that the regular mode of Orc reproduction involved this kind >> of cross-breeding. > >But as I said, perhaps it's not enough to let an orc-man "have his >way" with a human female to create a new orc-men or men-orc- race. It >might be enough to "produce" a standard-orc. Perhaps, but I always had the impression that cross-breeding Orcs with Men was evil largely BECAUSE of the fact that it would probably involve the capture and rape of human females. If captured human females are necessary to ordinary Orc reproduction, you'd think that it would have serious ramifications on human cultures that lived anywhere near Orcs. There's no hint (apart from the capture of Celebrian, and she's an Elf) that Orcs make any special point of raiding human settlements to capture women. >> Is it not possible that Orcs keep their females secluded, perhaps in >a >> form of harem, and that is why we never see them? Treating women >like >> possessions rather than people seems like something the Orcs' >culture >> would approve of. > >Possible, yes, but IMHO it's unlikely that nobody in SIL/LOTR talks >about female orcs, or knows about them. I think it's rather odd that >Tolkien wrote that they multiply in the same way as Elves anf Men, but >that he never mentioned orc-ladies. Well, the characters never SEE them, and hence have no occasion to talk about them. As far as Orcs themselves never talking about their females, well....Tolkien does note in the appendices to LotR that he "toned down" the Orc talk; I can't imagine a man like Tolkien putting in the sort of talk about even female *Orcs* as Orc soldiers (like most soldiers) would be likely to use about their women. And I daresay that most of the non-Orc characters (as well as the readers) would prefer not to ponder too much on Orcs' sexual relations. The idea of a female Orc is rather horrid, IMO, and describing their conditions, behavior, etc. does not, again, seem like the sort of thing that a man like Tolkien would want to put into words. Cee --- remove spamblocker to reply "It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one." "In all the long wars with the Dark Tower treason has ever been our greatest foe." - Gandalf (The Fellowship of the Ring) ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:25:08 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3d9bb673.5738000@news.mindspring.com> <3d9d0da0.19961355@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline34.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033720172 2589 131.246.65.34 (4 Oct 2002 08:29:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 08:29:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95842 Hi! "C. M. Malm" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3d9d0da0.19961355@news.mindspring.com... > On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:51:28 +0200, "Michael Graf" > took keyboard in hand and typed: > >...And that could mean that the "creation" (and preservation) of the > >orc race can't be availed by the corruption of male and female elves, > >but only by twisting male elves and mate them with human women. > >Interesting thought... > That is an interesting thought. Definitely something twisted enough > for Morgoth to have come up with. ACK. Twisting the Firstborn so that they rape the Secondborn and get a result that hates the First- and the Secondborn as well. -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:28:16 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3d9bb673.5738000@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline34.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033720173 2589 131.246.65.34 (4 Oct 2002 08:29:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 08:29:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95844 Guten Morgen! "Bratt" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:bP_m9.42666$bY5.240227@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > i was wondering if it could be the way that Mules are produced? > a.. Mules are hybrids, and therefore sterile and cannot be bred to each > other to produce more mules. Mmm, but remember the multitude of orcs needed for battle. It is often told that in some periods the orcs multiplied like flies, and if they would have exceptionally been bred by crossing Elves with Men the amount of captives must indeed have been great. But perhaps Morgoth forced captured female and male men to couple so that his storage of human "crossing-material"...my god, what are we talking about! ;-) -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: question about the reproduction of orcs Date: 4 Oct 2002 09:25:58 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3d9bb673.5738000@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1033723558 15527900 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95892 On 04 paz 2002, "Michael Graf" scribbled loosely: >> i was wondering if it could be the way that Mules are produced? >> a.. Mules are hybrids, and therefore sterile and cannot be bred to >> each other to produce more mules. > > Mmm, but remember the multitude of orcs needed for battle. It is often > told that in some periods the orcs multiplied like flies, and if they > would have exceptionally been bred by crossing Elves with Men the > amount of captives must indeed have been great. But perhaps Morgoth > forced captured female and male men to couple so that his storage of > human "crossing-material"...my god, what are we talking about! ;-) > Oh please. The orcs multiply like hell all the time, even when they have no master. When they had to hide in bowels of Misty Mountains they multiplied. When they had to run and hide from War of Wrath, they still multiplied. Where did they get their female captives then? We don't hear of any plagues of 'missing women' around Middle-Earth in times of relative peace. Of course, we can always explain establishing of kingdom of Angmar as a plan to get more breeding stock for Misty Mountains orcs, but that's a bit far-fetched... -- Pradera --- The Holy Document of Vatican Law cannot be changed! So sayeth the spider. http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/