From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:46:13 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1033516048 30118 203.100.22.231 (1 Oct 2002 23:47:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2002 23:47:28 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95693 In article , grafm@rhrk.uni-kl.de says... > Hi! > > Are Elves allowed to return to Middle-Earth when they've died and are > re-incarnated from the Halls Of Mandos? Some time ago it was suggested > (or proofed?) that Glorfindel of Gondolin is the same as Glorfindel of > Imladris, and so he would be one of those. > Is there any hint in further literature? (letters, HOME) IIRC, there is a direct statement in HoME... and checking Steuard's FAQ, I can see that this is actually the case: http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#Glorfindel for the reference. -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 18:43:51 -0700 Organization: dis mariposa Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c90.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95706 In article , "Michael Graf" wrote: > Hi! > > Are Elves allowed to return to Middle-Earth when they've died and are > re-incarnated from the Halls Of Mandos? Some time ago it was suggested > (or proofed?) that Glorfindel of Gondolin is the same as Glorfindel of > Imladris, and so he would be one of those. not after the world was made round before then its not clear if any except glorfindel would want to bother with middleearth anymore however boring aman was it was apparently free of orcs trolls sauron and balrogs ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:05:15 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline40.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033556131 3981 131.246.65.40 (2 Oct 2002 10:55:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:55:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95662 Hi! "Donald Shepherd" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:MPG.1804d0c3b5cf52a9989ca4@news.uq.edu.au... > IIRC, there is a direct statement in HoME... and checking Steuard's FAQ, > I can see that this is actually the case: > http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#Glorfindel for the Ok, so Glorfindel seems to be an exception. -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:09:26 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline40.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033556131 3981 131.246.65.40 (2 Oct 2002 10:55:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:55:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95663 Hi! "coyotes rand mair fheal" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:mair_fheal-0110021843510001@c90.ppp.tsoft.com... > In article , "Michael Graf" > wrote: > > Are Elves allowed to return to Middle-Earth when they've died and are > > re-incarnated from the Halls Of Mandos? Some time ago it was suggested > > (or proofed?) that Glorfindel of Gondolin is the same as Glorfindel of > > Imladris, and so he would be one of those. > not after the world was made round > before then its not clear if any except glorfindel would want to bother > with middleearth anymore In the FAQs (that I recently read) is mentioned, that Glorfindel might have come to ME as a companion of Gandalf. This would be impossible if it's true what you say. How do you know that the round world makes journeying to Aman a one-way-ticket? (at least for the Elves) -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 23:26:52 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1033565291 771 203.100.22.231 (2 Oct 2002 13:28:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Oct 2002 13:28:11 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95678 In article , grafm@rhrk.uni-kl.de says... > Hi! > > "Donald Shepherd" schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:MPG.1804d0c3b5cf52a9989ca4@news.uq.edu.au... > > > IIRC, there is a direct statement in HoME... and checking Steuard's > FAQ, > > I can see that this is actually the case: > > http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#Glorfindel for the > > Ok, so Glorfindel seems to be an exception. I haven't actually read the relevant passage, but it seems to be an accepted fact that it happens for all Elves. They just spent varying amounts of time before being reborn. -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 46 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1033572577 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 02 Oct 2002 10:29:37 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 10:29:37 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: BhEm9-1761-e5-1610@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: e325fd47 ba1589e9 3235a9c0 d0d96787 621732d8 Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:29:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95671 Quoth "Michael Graf" in article : > Are Elves allowed to return to Middle-Earth when they've died and > are re-incarnated from the Halls Of Mandos? It seems that in general, the answer was "no", but I don't think Tolkien explored the issue in depth. By the end of the First or Second Age, the Elves in Middle-earth were already beginning to become weary of the passing years and of the swift pace of change in the world that surrounded them, so at that point, once they had come to Valinor it seems likely that in almost all cases they would prefer to remain. Some may have been among the Eldar who visited Numenor from Eressea in the Second Age, but I don't think that any significant number of Elves went farther east than that (reincarnated or not); I'm tempted to say that just one did, though that's not certain. > Some time ago it was suggested (or proofed?) that Glorfindel of > Gondolin is the same as Glorfindel of Imladris, and so he would be > one of those. Proven, yes. :) Tolkien seems to have had this in mind from some of the earliest drafts that included Glorfindel, and he discussed the issue in detail in writings near the end of his life. You can find them in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_; relevant excerpts are given in the FAQ at http://tolkien.slimy.com/. The discussion there about Glorfindel's return to Middle-earth is uncertain, unfortunately, but if I recall correctly Tolkien portrayed him as a "messenger" from the Valar in every case, sent to help those in Middle-earth more actively than the Istari were. One suggestion was that he returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age by way of Numenor, and was involved in the affairs of Eregion from then on (which Tolkien realized would have to be "written in" to the history of the period). Another was that he returned as a companion of Gandalf when the Istari came in the Third Age, though that raises some substantial questions: did the other Istari also have Elvish companions? How was Glorfindel associated with Gandalf specifically? Or did "with Gandalf" just mean "with the Istari"? In all these cases, Glorfindel's situation was certainly portrayed as a "special case"; it's even possible that Tolkien may have commented on him being a rare or unique exception (I don't have my books here right now to check). So, no final answers, I'm afraid, but that's a summary of what we do know. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 20:40:01 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline03.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033585789 27958 131.246.65.3 (2 Oct 2002 19:09:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:09:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.hanau.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95727 Hi! "Donald Shepherd" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:MPG.1805911435490c28989cb0@news.uq.edu.au... > I haven't actually read the relevant passage, but it seems to be an > accepted fact that it happens for all Elves. They just spent varying > amounts of time before being reborn. Yes, but the question is whether they are allowed to return to Middle-Earth. -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:01:15 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline03.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033585790 27958 131.246.65.3 (2 Oct 2002 19:09:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:09:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95728 Hi! "Steuard Jensen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:BhEm9.11$e5.1706@news.uchicago.edu... > Quoth "Michael Graf" in article > : > > Are Elves allowed to return to Middle-Earth when they've died and > > are re-incarnated from the Halls Of Mandos? [snip] > the Elves in Middle-earth were already beginning to become > weary of the passing years and of the swift pace of change in the > world that surrounded them, so at that point, once they had come to > Valinor it seems likely that in almost all cases they would prefer > to remain. An interesting question is: does the previous death wash clean from sins, I mean, Feanor sits in the halls of Mandos until the end of the world, but those of the Noldor that swore the oath might be freed of it when they die, or do they share the lot of Feanor? > > Some time ago it was suggested (or proofed?) that Glorfindel of > > Gondolin is the same as Glorfindel of Imladris, and so he would be > > one of those. > Proven, yes. :) Ooops, sorrie vour mi eengklish! :-) [snip] > it's even possible that Tolkien may have commented on him being > a rare or unique exception (I don't have my books here right now to > check). If it's such a unique exception, I wonder why Tolkien didn't point it out a little bit more and why he gave Glorfindel the part of a support actor. -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:56:38 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1033599480 27126 203.100.22.231 (2 Oct 2002 22:58:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Oct 2002 22:58:00 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95772 In article , grafm@rhrk.uni-kl.de says... > Hi! > > "Donald Shepherd" schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:MPG.1805911435490c28989cb0@news.uq.edu.au... > > > I haven't actually read the relevant passage, but it seems to be an > > accepted fact that it happens for all Elves. They just spent > varying > > amounts of time before being reborn. > > Yes, but the question is whether they are allowed to return to > Middle-Earth. Having managed to get hold of a copy of PoME (apparently the library has a set that they didn't tell me about), it appears that they are: "When [Elves] were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there." - Peoples of Middle-Earth -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:04:59 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1033599987 27126 203.100.22.231 (2 Oct 2002 23:06:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Oct 2002 23:06:27 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95773 In article , grafm@rhrk.uni-kl.de says... > Hi! > > "Steuard Jensen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:BhEm9.11$e5.1706@news.uchicago.edu... > > Quoth "Michael Graf" in article > > : > > > > Are Elves allowed to return to Middle-Earth when they've died and > > > are re-incarnated from the Halls Of Mandos? > > [snip] > > > the Elves in Middle-earth were already beginning to become > > weary of the passing years and of the swift pace of change in the > > world that surrounded them, so at that point, once they had come to > > Valinor it seems likely that in almost all cases they would prefer > > to remain. > > An interesting question is: does the previous death wash clean from > sins, I mean, Feanor sits in the halls of Mandos until the end of the > world, but those of the Noldor that swore the oath might be freed of > it when they die, or do they share the lot of Feanor? "...when Glorfindel was slain his spirit would then go to Mandos and be judged, and then would remain in the Halls of Waiting until Manwe granted him release. The Elves were destined to be by nature 'immortal', within the unknown limits of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm, and their disembodiment was a grievous thing. It was the duty, therefore, of the Valar to restore them, if they were slain, to incarnate life, if they desired it - unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant." - PoME By the looks of that, they would spend a period of time in the Halls of Waiting judged suitable by Manwe to consider their sins, after which they could be re-embodied if so desired (except in very rare cases). -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 02:58:32 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95782 Michael Graf wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >An interesting question is: does the previous death wash clean from >sins, I mean, Feanor sits in the halls of Mandos until the end of the >world, but those of the Noldor that swore the oath might be freed of >it when they die, or do they share the lot of Feanor? Merely dying is not any kind of atonement for Elves. Their spirit waits in Mandos and it is there that the healing of their spirit takes place, both of hurts imposed from outside and of sins(*) committed. (*)not Tolkien's word, but I can't remember which words he used -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:17:05 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline50.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033639355 5973 131.246.65.50 (3 Oct 2002 10:02:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:02:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95750 Hi! "Donald Shepherd" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:MPG.180616a3c58152ff989cb7@news.uq.edu.au... > Having managed to get hold of a copy of PoME (apparently the library has > a set that they didn't tell me about), it appears that they are: > "When [Elves] were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return > to Middle-earth if their home had been there." - Peoples of Middle-Earth Ah, that's interesting. Then Glorfindel wouldn't be an exception, but this seems to contradict what most people think about this subject. Is PoME canonic? -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:08:38 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1033650610 11097 203.100.22.231 (3 Oct 2002 13:10:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Oct 2002 13:10:10 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95780 In article , grafm@rhrk.uni-kl.de says... > Hi! > > "Donald Shepherd" schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:MPG.180616a3c58152ff989cb7@news.uq.edu.au... > > > Having managed to get hold of a copy of PoME (apparently the library > has > > a set that they didn't tell me about), it appears that they are: > > "When [Elves] were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or > return > > to Middle-earth if their home had been there." - Peoples of > Middle-Earth > > Ah, that's interesting. Then Glorfindel wouldn't be an exception, but > this seems to contradict what most people think about this subject. Is > PoME canonic? These are some of his last writings, so it depends whether you consider Tolkien's final mythology canonical or the mythology at the time of the publication of the LotR to be canonical (though by the context around the Glorfindel notes by the editor, it appears that Tolkien had this as the idea while writing the LotR, it just wasn't put down on paper). IMO, yes they are. -- Donald Shepherd "To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid" ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1033678197 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:49:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:49:57 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: V32n9-11618-e5-11902@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 8d612116 49f7329d af8a5cea e9722a54 1eb90613 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:49:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95817 Quoth Donald Shepherd in article : > grafm@rhrk.uni-kl.de says... > > Yes, but the question is whether they are allowed to return to > > Middle-Earth. > Having managed to get hold of a copy of PoME (apparently the library > has a set that they didn't tell me about), it appears that they are: > "When [Elves] were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or > return to Middle-earth if their home had been there." - Peoples of > Middle-Earth Well, would you look at that. Which essay does that come from? (Most of the essays in PoMe are quite canonical in my eyes, but some _were_ written later than others and all else being equal, I give those more weight if they contradict.) I thought I remembered at least a suggestion of the opposite in one of the Glorfindel essays, but memory could easily be playing tricks on me. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 44 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1033678816 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 03 Oct 2002 16:00:16 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 16:00:16 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: Ad2n9-11738-e5-11919@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: c9a3e2c1 e18744ea a8d91373 a95ba495 4b284a11 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:00:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95818 Quoth "Michael Graf" in article : > "Steuard Jensen" schrieb: > > Quoth "Michael Graf" : > An interesting question is: does the previous death wash clean from > sins...? My understanding is that the Elves weren't able/allowed to leave Mandos until they had been fully "healed" in spirit, including some sort of understanding of and repentance for their own mistakes. In PoMe, Tolkien says that Glorfindel's "spiritual power" after returning to Middle-earth was especially great, specifically because he had been "purified" before being reembodied. > > > Some time ago it was suggested (or proofed?) that Glorfindel of > > > Gondolin is the same as Glorfindel of Imladris, and so he would > > > be one of those. > > Proven, yes. :) > Ooops, sorrie vour mi eengklish! :-) To be honest, I believe that both "I have proved it" and "I have proven it" are considered acceptable in modern English. I much prefer "proven", but some people probably find my usage a little old fashioned. (On the other hand, you would always say "I proved it"; the phrase "I proven it" doesn't make sense.) > > it's even possible that Tolkien may have commented on him being a > > rare or unique exception (I don't have my books here right now to > > check). > If it's such a unique exception, I wonder why Tolkien didn't point > it out a little bit more and why he gave Glorfindel the part of a > support actor. Well, as I mentioned, he realized when he came to that conclusion that Glorfindel's role in the Third Age (and possibly the Second) would have been much greater than was implied in what he'd already written. His deep musings on Glorfindel came very late in his life, and he didn't have a chance to rewrite everything that he would have wanted to to integrate his new understanding of Glorfindel into the stories. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Michael Graf" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:28:00 +0200 Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: talkline34.rhrk.uni-kl.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-kl.de 1033720173 2589 131.246.65.34 (4 Oct 2002 08:29:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uni-kl.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 08:29:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-kl.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95843 Hi! "Steuard Jensen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:Ad2n9.67$e5.11751@news.uchicago.edu... > My understanding is that the Elves weren't able/allowed to leave > Mandos until they had been fully "healed" in spirit, including some > sort of understanding of and repentance for their own mistakes. In > PoMe, Tolkien says that Glorfindel's "spiritual power" after returning > to Middle-earth was especially great, specifically because he had been > "purified" before being reembodied. So is this the reason why Frodo saw him as a bright shape in the shadow world when he wore the ring, the only thing beside the Nazgul that he could descry clearly? Up 'til now, It never came to my mind that this could be caused by Glorfindels reincarnation, I thought this was a general characterisic for elves....but now I'm in doubt. Frode never wore the ring in the presence of Legolas, did he? > To be honest, I believe that both "I have proved it" and "I have > proven it" are considered acceptable in modern English. I much prefer > "proven", but some people probably find my usage a little old > fashioned. (On the other hand, you would always say "I proved it"; > the phrase "I proven it" doesn't make sense.) Thank you, but this doesn't excuse "proofed" ;-) > Well, as I mentioned, he realized when he came to that conclusion that > Glorfindel's role in the Third Age (and possibly the Second) would > have been much greater than was implied in what he'd already written. > His deep musings on Glorfindel came very late in his life, and he > didn't have a chance to rewrite everything that he would have wanted > to to integrate his new understanding of Glorfindel into the stories. Perhaps there's a story-internal solution: But for Pippin and Merry Glorfindel would have been a companion of Frodo.(AFAIR that's the one who he thought to be chosen by Elrond) -- An apple a day Keeps Bill Ferny away ###### From: imrahill@hotmail.com (Jeff E of the GWN) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: 4 Oct 2002 10:24:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: <96d6eceb.0210040924.2df4b0b1@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.66.112.251 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033752289 21345 127.0.0.1 (4 Oct 2002 17:24:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 2002 17:24:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95895 he realized when he came to that conclusion that > > Glorfindel's role in the Third Age (and possibly the Second) would > > have been much greater than was implied in what he'd already written. > > > who is to say that his role wasnt great, one perhaps should not judge the outcomes of a direct action as a great role or lack thereof. Glorfindel had a big role in forcing the Nine to the waters edge thus they are drowned. What would they have done if not forced kills aragorn and the hobbitsd take their time and get Frodo the river maybe could only have been flooded once there were nine riders. look at bilbo he didnt take the ring to Orodruin but he saved Gollums life and thus the ring DID go into the cracks of doom, if not for Bilbos pity there would have been disaster. my two bits ,IMHO that is ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 23:02:03 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95953 stephen@nomail.com wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In the book we are told that Glorfindel appeared so because he >had lived in the Blessed Realm. This does not imply that he >died and was reincarnated. Not by itself, true. However, the "Quenta Silmarillion" tells of his death and burial after the fall of Gondolin. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com "US-Germany relations slide to an all-time low" -- /Cortland Standard/ headline, 24 Sep 2002 I guess 1917-1918 and 1941-1945 don't count. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Back to Life in Middle-Earth? Date: 5 Oct 2002 15:38:30 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 16 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95939 Stan Brown wrote: : stephen@nomail.com wrote in : rec.arts.books.tolkien: :>In the book we are told that Glorfindel appeared so because he :>had lived in the Blessed Realm. This does not imply that he :>died and was reincarnated. : Not by itself, true. However, the "Quenta Silmarillion" tells of his : death and burial after the fall of Gondolin. Yes, but my point was that he appeared to Frodo as he did not because he had died and been reincarnated, but because he had lived in the Blessed Realm. Galadriel, who had never died, would presumably had appeared in a similar way. Stephen