From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Tolkien's Artwork Lines: 85 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 18:39:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.198.120.62 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc03.gnilink.net 1032719960 151.198.120.62 (Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:39:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:39:20 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc03.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95172 When discussing Tolkien's graphic art there are generally two main source books; "Pictures by JRR Tolkien" ('Pictures'), by Christopher Tolkien (ISBN 0-395-60648-9) "JRR Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator" ('A&I'), by Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull (ISBN 0-395-74816-X) Of these two, it is generally agreed that A&I is by far the 'better' book. It has many more pictures, generally higher reproduction quality of the images (cleaner lines, colors sharper and truer to the original), and a great deal of detailed analysis putting the artwork into context with Tolkien's life and literary work. Why then would anyone buy Pictures? There are several reasons; 1: Because of the printing format of the two books the images in Pictures are almost invariably larger than those in A&I. 2: In addition to original black and white drawings by Tolkien, Pictures also includes versions of several of the images 'colourized' by other artists. 3: There are several images which appear in Pictures but not in A&I; #11 - An unfinished painting of the Elvenking's Gate from 'The Hobbit'. A&I has a sketch (#118) which was probably a working draft for this painting. #18 - A painting of the Lonely Mountain with Smaug flying past it. Images #134-136 in A&I are sketches of very similar scenes. #24 - Shows three pages from the 'Book of Mazarbul'. Page III and an alternate version of Page I appear in A&I. There is also a great deal of analysis and translation of the pages in Pictures, including some bits which Gandalf couldn't make out when reading it in the text of the story. #27 - Shows a sketch of Orthanc which does not appear in A&I though it is similar to #164. #30 - Shows a sketch of Mount Doom with the road and Sammath Naur. #33 - A watercolour of the entrance to Nargothrond very similar to a pencil and black ink sketch in A&I (#57). #39 - Shows a polar bear having fallen down a staircase from the Father Christmas Letters. #40 - Shows three green dragons. Images #48 & #49 in A&I match two of them, but the third, twined around a tree, does not. #41 - Shows four images of very ornate trees. One of them matches A&I #62. #42 - A very colorful display of a flowering tree and bird. #43 - Ornate patterns drawn on newspapers. Very similar to #184 in A&I. #44 - Patterns and symbols, some of which match #183 in A&I and others which are unique. #45 - Floral designs of vines and rushes. One labeled 'Pilinehtar'. #46 - Three Numenorean tile and textile designs. One of them is also shown in A&I #187. #47 - Sixteen heraldric devices, nine of which are shown in A&I #189-195. The additional devices shown in Pictures are for Feanor, Beren, Finrod, Hador, Beor, the Silmarils, and the House of Haleth. #48 - Three pages of elvish script with partial text of 'Errantry' and 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil'. If you are going to buy only one of these two books I would certainly suggest it be A&I. However, there is enough unique material in Pictures that I would recommend it to anyone who has the resources to afford both. ###### From: stug.taliesen@telerama.com (Stug) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:40:11 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!208.49.253.98!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95277 On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 18:39:20 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock: >Why then would anyone buy Pictures? There are several reasons; > >If you are going to buy only one of these two books I would >certainly suggest it be A&I. However, there is enough unique >material in Pictures that I would recommend it to anyone who has >the resources to afford both. > It is interesting to see this comparison even if one has both books. Actually, I didn't realize just how much Pictures has that A&I does not. I've always wondered, though, why the drawing of the Numenorean helmet that was used on the cover of the original (American edition) Unfinished Tales never appeared in either of these two books. Tolkien's rather Dali-esque title for the picture was "Helmet of a captain of the Uinendili, helm made of overlapping plates of metal, the 'fish-crest' of leather embossed and colored." Does anyone know if there are other such drawings like this that were not reproduced elsewhere? The cover of UT is the only place I've ever seen this one printed. Stug "...the Balrogs get hence with a measureless booty." --Meglin, The Fall of Gondolin Guide to U.S. Editions: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/editions.html FAQ-Like Guide to the Letters: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Remove 'stug' from address to e-mail me. ###### From: Wayne.G.Hammond@williams.edu (Wayne Hammond) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: 24 Sep 2002 05:25:09 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 44 Message-ID: <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.213.11.95 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1032870309 29345 127.0.0.1 (24 Sep 2002 12:25:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Sep 2002 12:25:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95309 To reply to several parts of this thread: _Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien_ is most definitely out of print, and will remain so. It was meant to be only a temporary publication, based on examples of Tolkien art that had appeared in calendars, until a serious study of his paintings and drawings could appear. Once _J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator_ was published in 1995, _Pictures_ could be retired -- happily, since its reproductions were not of the best quality (the second edition was printed from scans of the first edition, and the drop in quality, deviation from true color values, etc. is very evident). Even so, when Christina and I wrote A&I we took _Pictures_ into account. It was not then strangely scarce and amazingly expensive on the secondhand market! We were allowed by HarperCollins only 200 pictures, roughly half in color and half black and white, but Tolkien made hundreds of drawings, and ideally one would want to reproduce them all. So we had to make a selection -- the major pictures for the major works, plus anything else that best exemplified Tolkien's art and related to his writings. We chose to leave out a few pictures that are in _Pictures_, and referred to them in notes, because that book was (then) readily available. Similarly, we left out the Numenorean helmet, only referring to it (p. 189), because it was represented on the jackets of many copies of _Unfinished Tales_, though we did include other such doodles by Tolkien in chapter 6. I say "represented" rather than "reproduced" because the helmet was redrawn for the purpose, so the cover illustration is not Tolkien's original. _Pictures_ also includes a small selection of doodles. Christina and I are happy to see A&I being mentioned here. It's an odd thing that it never gets into any of the big Tolkien book displays at Barnes & Noble or Borders, though these do include the likes of David Day and Grotta! Nor do we often see single copies of A&I on the Tolkien shelves (or, in Borders, in the Art section). Apparently Houghton Mifflin prefer to push their most recent Tolkien volumes, though it seems daft that they ignore their Tolkien backlist in this way, at a time when anything with "Tolkien" on it will sell dramatically. A&I most definitely is in print! but it might have to be special-ordered, or bought through an online source such as Amazon or Booksamillion. Wayne Hammond ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:24:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.198.121.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1032913499 151.198.121.121 (Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:24:59 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:24:59 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95349 "Wayne Hammond" wrote in message news:9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com... > Once _J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator_ was published in 1995, > _Pictures_ could be retired -- happily, since its reproductions > were not of the best quality (the second edition was printed from > scans of the first edition, and the drop in quality, deviation from > true color values, etc. is very evident). I noticed (and read about) several problems with the picture quality, but hadn't realized it differed between the first and second edition of Pictures (I have not seen the first edition). > It was not then strangely scarce and amazingly expensive on > the secondhand market! Is it? Somehow or other I wound up with two. Should probably look into selling one of them back at some point. > Christina and I are happy to see A&I being mentioned here. And not just because we like you guys. :) ###### From: TorgosPizza@webtv.net (Michael Theroff) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:03:22 -0500 (CDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 11 Message-ID: <2674-3D910B5A-380@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net> References: <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQKA0v50oV07MnCBVGUUHPQ6nlRXgIVAMJy+T+F/j3LL7UWI75I9guwhe/u Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newssorter-2001.public.lawson.webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95334 A & I is a brilliant book. It's well written and manifest throughout that it not only was the subject poured over meticulously, but a good deal of respect was put into it. But more than respect, I see a good deal of joy in his work exemplified by the authors, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. I picked my copy up at a local "Mom-and-Pop" bookstore, and it was located with the rest of the oversized Tolkien books (mainly dealing with the film), with the cover facing out from the shelf towards the customer. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 25 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1032970000 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:06:40 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:06:40 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: kalk9-2076-J4-1168@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 160dcb31 9811e9b2 d46dbc29 9095f408 15317233 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:06:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95337 Quoth Wayne.G.Hammond@williams.edu (Wayne Hammond) in article <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com>: > Christina and I are happy to see A&I being mentioned here. It really is a wonderful book: I got it as a Christmas gift from my parents a few years ago, and that was undoubtedly the most excited I've been about a Christmas gift since I was a little kid. I don't know if you've noticed, but I have included it in the list of very good secondary works about Tolkien that I've recently added to the Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ. (It's also mentioned in the question about the term "canonical".) I don't think that my FAQ will sell many copies for you, but at least it's there. :) > It's an odd thing that it never gets into any of the big Tolkien > book displays at Barnes & Noble or Borders, though these do include > the likes of David Day and Grotta! The attention given to David Day continues to astound me. I am surprised that your book isn't featured more prominently, now that I think of it. Is there anything that those of us who appreciate _real_ Tolkien scholarship could do to encourage Houghton Mifflin or our local bookstores to put more emphasis on books like yours? Steuard Jensen ###### From: Stug Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:43:53 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <05k6pu0r56cc0gp0l78nre8s3b9m8l6k2h@4ax.com> References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 44 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95430 On 24 Sep 2002 05:25:09 -0700, Wayne.G.Hammond@williams.edu (Wayne Hammond) carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock: >To reply to several parts of this thread: > >Christina and I are happy to see A&I being mentioned here. It's an odd >thing that it never gets into any of the big Tolkien book displays at >Barnes & Noble or Borders, though these do include the likes of David >Day and Grotta! Nor do we often see single copies of A&I on the >Tolkien shelves (or, in Borders, in the Art section). Apparently >Houghton Mifflin prefer to push their most recent Tolkien volumes, >though it seems daft that they ignore their Tolkien backlist in this >way, at a time when anything with "Tolkien" on it will sell >dramatically. A&I most definitely is in print! but it might have to be >special-ordered, or bought through an online source such as Amazon or >Booksamillion. > I think it's safe to say that nearly everyone here loves that book. In fact, a possible reason that it's not mentioned more often is that it's just one those situtations where it kind of goes without saying. I think I got one (two) of the remaining hardcover copies just before the recent paperback reprint came out. I had never been able to find it prior to that, so I bought two so I could give one to a friend who was also looking for it. Shortly after that I began seeing it prominently displayed on shelves in Borders. I agree that it deserves way more attention that the David Day material and other stuff like that. I mentioned the Numenorean helmet because although one can simply look at the cover of UT to see it, I would love to read the insightful and intriguing commentary would most certainly accompany the drawing in a book such as A&I (which is what gives it a real edge over Pictures, aside from the quantity of artwork presented). It's understandable, of course, that the editors had to be selective regarding the contents. Therefore, might we hope for a Volume 2 someday? Stug "...the Balrogs get hence with a measureless booty." --Meglin, The Fall of Gondolin (Remove 'stug' from e-mail address to contact me) FAQ-like Guide to the Letters of JRRT: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html Guide to U.S. Editions: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/editions.html ###### From: andrew@wellinghall.force9.co.uk (Andrew Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: 27 Sep 2002 03:01:25 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2f9adb4c.0209270201.4df061df@posting.google.com> References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.40.128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033120885 10349 127.0.0.1 (27 Sep 2002 10:01:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 2002 10:01:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95456 Wayne.G.Hammond@williams.edu (Wayne Hammond) wrote in message news:<9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com>... > Christina and I are happy to see A&I being mentioned here. It's an odd > thing that it never gets into any of the big Tolkien book displays at > Barnes & Noble or Borders, though these do include the likes of David > Day and Grotta! Nor do we often see single copies of A&I on the > Tolkien shelves (or, in Borders, in the Art section). Apparently > Houghton Mifflin prefer to push their most recent Tolkien volumes, > though it seems daft that they ignore their Tolkien backlist in this > way, at a time when anything with "Tolkien" on it will sell > dramatically. A&I most definitely is in print! but it might have to be > special-ordered, or bought through an online source such as Amazon or > Booksamillion. Wayne and Christina may be cheered to know that A&I does seem to be reasonably well represnted, at least, in bookshops in the UK. Andrew ###### From: andrew@wellinghall.force9.co.uk (Andrew Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: 27 Sep 2002 03:04:26 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2f9adb4c.0209270204.54afa425@posting.google.com> References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.40.128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033121066 10529 127.0.0.1 (27 Sep 2002 10:04:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 2002 10:04:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95450 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:... > The attention given to David Day continues to astound me. I agree! It may be relevant that David Day (or his publisher) is continually bringing out "new" books. These are not really new - the contents are lifted wholesale from his early Bestiary and Encyclopedia - but bookshops will always give preference to new books than to old ones. Andrew ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (cr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: 27 Sep 2002 03:29:04 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: <22680de.0209270229.2e8ad81b@posting.google.com> References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.23.77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033122545 11798 127.0.0.1 (27 Sep 2002 10:29:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 2002 10:29:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95436 Wayne.G.Hammond@williams.edu (Wayne Hammond) wrote in message news:<9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com>... > To reply to several parts of this thread: > _Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien_ is most definitely out of print, and will > remain so. ... You sound very emphatic, but wasn't it put back into print several years ago? Maybe it went right back out of print again, but I don't know about that. And where do you get your information that Pictures was only 'temporary'? My hardback slipcased edition does not look like a temporary publication at all. I like A&I very much also, but let's be accurate with information about Pictures, please. There's no need to trash one book in order to promote the other. We are intelligent enough people here to appreciate two things at once. -cr ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (cr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: 27 Sep 2002 03:46:29 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 5 Message-ID: <22680de.0209270246.52347798@posting.google.com> References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> <05k6pu0r56cc0gp0l78nre8s3b9m8l6k2h@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.23.77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033123589 12733 127.0.0.1 (27 Sep 2002 10:46:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 2002 10:46:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95425 1979, I believe, was the first year of publication of Pictures, and a 'revised' edition was published in 1992. Whether the 1992 edition is still in print or not, I don't know. -cr ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> <22680de.0209270229.2e8ad81b@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6X%k9.79$J4.10094@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1033145154 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:45:54 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:45:54 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 6X%k9-17954-J4-10066@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: d64f5f7c 7d884bce 4fb88b13 67a18e44 eb67af31 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:45:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95403 Quoth oscwr@netscape.net (cr) in article <22680de.0209270229.2e8ad81b@posting.google.com>: > Wayne.G.Hammond@williams.edu (Wayne Hammond) wrote: > > _Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien_ is most definitely out of print, and > > will remain so. ... > You sound very emphatic, but wasn't it put back into print several > years ago? Maybe it went right back out of print again, but I don't > know about that. And where do you get your information that > Pictures was only 'temporary'? ... > I like A&I very much also, but let's be accurate with information > about Pictures, please. There's no need to trash one book in order > to promote the other. If someone _else_ posted an emphatic claim about the publication history of a book related to Tolkien and I wanted to verify the information, I can't think of a better person to ask than Wayne Hammond. Given that he's one of the authors of _Artist and Illustrator_, I would be surprised if he _hadn't_ had conversations with the publisher about the status of _Pictures_ and its relationship to the new book. Do you have any particular reason to doubt that his information is accurate? (Or are you just suspicious that he's misleading people to promote his own work? I think a scholar of his standing deserves more credit than that.) As for your question, "wasn't [_Pictures_] put back into print again several years ago", yes, it was: I believe that it was reprinted in 1992. Wayne commented on the recent edition in his previous post: he said that "its reproductions were not of the best quality" and that "Once _J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator_ was published in 1995, _Pictures_ could be retired". It sounds to me as if he was specifically talking about the 1992 edition, and as if he had direct information to back up his statements. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Wayne.G.Hammond@williams.edu (Wayne Hammond) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: 27 Sep 2002 20:13:01 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 92 Message-ID: <9b02363b.0209271913.1fccb8e1@posting.google.com> References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> <22680de.0209270229.2e8ad81b@posting.google.com> <6X%k9.79$J4.10094@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.213.11.91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033182781 3005 127.0.0.1 (28 Sep 2002 03:13:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2002 03:13:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95482 oscwr@netscape.net (cr) wrote in message news:<22680de.0209270229.2e8ad81b@posting.google.com>... > You sound very emphatic, but wasn't it put back into print several years ago? > Maybe it went right back out of print again, but I don't know about that. > And where do you get your information that Pictures was only 'temporary'? > > My hardback slipcased edition does not look like a temporary publication at all. > > I like A&I very much also, but let's be accurate with information about Pictures, > please. There's no need to trash one book in order to promote the other. We > are intelligent enough people here to appreciate two things at once. I wasn't trying to trash _Pictures_, CR, just stating the facts. _Pictures_ wasn't "temporary" in the sense of ephemeral, flimsy, or poorly made. Both editions (1979 and 1992) are nice to look at and to hold. But that compilation of art that had appeared earlier in Tolkien calendars, with brief notes by Christopher Tolkien, was never meant to be more than a "gift book" for fans to enjoy until someone could write the serious book on Tolkien's art that the Tolkien family had desired for a long time. This comes directly from Christopher, who told us that such a book was wanted, that it needed someone with knowledge both of art and of his father's writings, and that the family had not yet found the right person to do the job. In conversation with Christina at the 1992 Tolkien centenary conference at Oxford, it occurred to him that she and I had strong credentials in art and were well-known Tolkien scholars, so he asked us to give it a try. (You may imagine that we agreed at once!) The research, writing, and design (I also designed and typeset the book) took us over two years, and with production A&I didn't appear until late 1995. Meanwhile, another edition of _Pictures_ came out in 1992, planned before Christopher gave us the commission for A&I; this began to be remaindered around the time A&I was published. Obviously the publisher didn't want two Tolkien art books on the market at the same time, and A&I was meant to replace _Pictures_, to have a much more substantive text and much more accurate color and fidelity to detail. _Pictures_ had reproduced existing reproductions, and had enlarged some art to the point of distortion (Tolkien tended to draw or paint small). For A&I HarperCollins generously allowed us a budget to re-photograph the original color art, we never reproduced anything larger than actual size, and we took pains to see that the color was correct in our proofs (only one of Tolkien's designs for _Lord of the Rings_ dust-jackets went "off", at the printer's). So, indeed, even the 1992 edition of _Pictures_ is out of print, and as far as I know will remain out of print -- at least in English! I don't know if it's still in print in, say, France (the French translation is by Adam Tolkien, the younger of Christopher's two sons). Of course one never knows what HarperCollins might do. Stug wrote in message news:<05k6pu0r56cc0gp0l78nre8s3b9m8l6k2h@4ax.com>... > I think it's safe to say that nearly everyone here loves that book. Thanks! > I mentioned the Numenorean helmet because although one can simply look > at the cover of UT to see it, I would love to read the insightful and > intriguing commentary would most certainly accompany the drawing in a > book such as A&I (which is what gives it a real edge over Pictures, > aside from the quantity of artwork presented). It's understandable, > of course, that the editors had to be selective regarding the > contents. Therefore, might we hope for a Volume 2 someday? At the moment, it doesn't seem likely, as A&I was an expensive book to print, and hasn't done as well as our publisher had hoped. (We might re-cover it, seven years on, and make it "new" again.) Also, a "Volume 2" could include only very miscellaneous art, since we put almost all of the most significant and interesting pictures in A&I. But given the opportunity, we could certainly prepare a revised and expanded edition of A&I: there were 40 or 50 more pictures, doodles, sketches, and bits of calligraphy that we would have gladly included if we had had the space and the budget. Write to HarperCollins and demand a new edition! but please, not for a few years, until we clear our present projects out of the way (and paint the kitchen). Meanwhile, our next book, provisionally _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Companion and Guide_, will include a checklist of Tolkien's published art -- in A&I, _Pictures_, and elsewhere -- which you may find useful. andrew@wellinghall.force9.co.uk (Andrew Wells) wrote in message news:<2f9adb4c.0209270201.4df061df@posting.google.com>... > > Wayne and Christina may be cheered to know that A&I does seem to be > reasonably well represented, at least, in bookshops in the UK. Thanks for the good news, Andrew! (We hope you're still nicely on the mend.) And thanks also to Michael Theroff and especially Steuard Jensen for their kind words and encouragement. Wayne ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (cr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Date: 28 Sep 2002 04:38:15 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 26 Message-ID: <22680de.0209280338.3559c019@posting.google.com> References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> <9b02363b.0209240425.2bcac09a@posting.google.com> <22680de.0209270229.2e8ad81b@posting.google.com> <6X%k9.79$J4.10094@news.uchicago.edu> <9b02363b.0209271913.1fccb8e1@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.22.10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033213095 30014 127.0.0.1 (28 Sep 2002 11:38:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2002 11:38:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95476 Wayne.G.Hammond@williams.edu (Wayne Hammond) wrote in message news:<9b02363b.0209271913.1fccb8e1@posting.google.com>... > ... Obviously > the publisher didn't want two Tolkien art books on the market at the > same time, ... I don't know why that's obvious, but as I said, I like A&I very much. I bought it when it was first published. The first post in this thread, however, carefully points out the differences between the two books, and recommends that those who can afford them acquire both books. I think that's a more enlightened view than one which urges people to forget one thing in favour of another. Similarly, I'll never abandon the first edition of The Silmarillion in favour of the second edition, because I think the first edition is superior, as it does not cater to people who might need a Tolkien explanation in advance, which could ruin the delight of discovery by those who don't need to know all about it before reading it. I'm very glad I read The Silmarillion before reading that letter, which I think should have stayed in Letters. I believe Christopher made a rare mistake in judgment in this case. I don't mean that as an analogy for Pictures vs. A&I, because I don't claim that Pictures is better than A&I, only that it is different, and a worthy piece of Tolkien's publishing history. -cr ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's Artwork Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <5HGl9.675$814.8@nwrddc03.gnilink.net> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:24:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.198.118.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc03.gnilink.net 1033320257 151.198.118.25 (Sun, 29 Sep 2002 13:24:17 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 13:24:17 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!ps01-chi1!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc03.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95502 "Stug" wrote in message news:3d8fdd13.1007315@news.lm.com... > Actually, I didn't realize just how much Pictures has that A&I does > not. To describe it numerically; 49 Tolkien images appear in Pictures but not A&I 147 Tolkien images appear in A&I but not Pictures 53 Tolkien images appear in both books Pictures also contains 12 images colourized by other artists from B&W Tolkien originals (also included) and two photographs of Tolkien himself. Some of the image numbers in both books actually contain multiple drawings, which makes the above counts somewhat arbitrary. Overall, my methodology was to treat images which showed multiple drawings on their original single sheet of paper as 'one image' while for those which were grouped together on a single page taken from multiple original sheets I counted the number of distinct drawings.