Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Subject: Where do Elves get their food? Originator: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Message-ID: Sender: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) X-No-Markup: yes Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:16:48 GMT X-No-Archive: no NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!world!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95063 We see humans and hobbits engaging in agriculture in LotR, but there seems to be no mention in LotR or The Silmarillion of anyone else farming. Dwarves hunt occasionally, and obviously engage in commerce. But does an entire Elven community like Lothlorien or Imladris subsist on hunting and gathering? The Elves of Mirkwood in _The Hobbit_ clearly purchased food and wine from humans so regularly that they made a point of returning the empty barrels, presumably for credit of some sort, but what did they trade? In Beleriand, Elves made up *most* of the population, so buying provisions from lesser races wasn't an option. -- pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "So, what are you gonna do with | that Ring, Brain?" ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: 20 Sep 2002 21:55:27 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1032558927 5939403 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95083 On 20 wrz 2002, pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) scribbled loosely: > > We see humans and hobbits engaging in agriculture in LotR, but there > seems to be no mention in LotR or The Silmarillion of anyone else > farming. That, of course, is as common misunderstanding as it gets, coming from judging all elves by standards of Lorien. There are multiple mentions of elven _fields_ in Silmarillion, especially around Nargothrond. -- Pradera --- Sometimes I think, oh yes, I could do almost everything I wanted And it makes me cry. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:14:20 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95115 Paul Ciszek wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >The Elves of Mirkwood in _The Hobbit_ clearly purchased food and wine from >humans so regularly that they made a point of returning the empty barrels, >presumably for credit of some sort, No, it's just that Middle-earth had a solid environmental lobby and _very_ strong laws on reuse of packaging. :-) Seriously, I think you make a valid point. Perhaps the Wood-Elves traded knowledge and what we might call high-tech services: charms to prevent food from spoiling, perhaps; books; musical instruments, instruction of the young. > In Beleriand, >Elves made up *most* of the population, so buying provisions from lesser >races wasn't an option. Well, yes and no. In developed countries today, only a small minority of the population is engaged in producing food, and the great majority trade for it. Of course First Age Beleriand was hardly what we would call a developed country, though some areas were civilized. My best guess is that, since the population was not very dense, most people grew their own vegetables and traded for what they didn't make themselves. The family with chickens might trade eggs for milk from the family with cows, for instance. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Apteryx" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:38:06 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.55.146.131 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 1032579858 210.55.146.131 (Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:44:18 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:44:18 NZST Organization: Xtra Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95095 Paul Ciszek wrote in message news:H2r9s0.6pr@world.std.com... > We see humans and hobbits engaging in agriculture in LotR, but there seems > to be no mention in LotR or The Silmarillion of anyone else farming. Dwarves > hunt occasionally, and obviously engage in commerce. But does an entire > Elven community like Lothlorien or Imladris subsist on hunting and gathering? > The Elves of Mirkwood in _The Hobbit_ clearly purchased food and wine from > humans so regularly that they made a point of returning the empty barrels, > presumably for credit of some sort, but what did they trade? Perhaps they were a wee bit smarter than their human neigbours, and traded empty barrels in exchange for food and wine in barrels. -- Apteryx "My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher" Socrates ###### NNTP-Posting-Host: 218.186.20.52 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:37:58 +0800 Message-ID: <191C91BDFE8ED411B84400805FBE794C2B7558E9@pfs21.ex.nus.edu.sg> Sender: "Khoo Wan Sing,Joy" From: "Joy" References: Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!columbine.singnet.com.sg!peony.singnet.com.sg!pfs21.ex.nus.edu.sg Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95087 "Paul Ciszek" wrote: > We see humans and hobbits engaging in agriculture in LotR, > but there seems to be no mention in LotR or The Silmarillion > of anyone else farming. Dwarves hunt occasionally, and > obviously engage in commerce. But does an entire Elven > community like Lothlorien or Imladris subsist on hunting > and gathering? Replicators, I tell you!! -joy ###### From: Jussi Jaatinen Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:45:44 +0300 Organization: Elisa Internet customer Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3D8C3FC8.15A797D3@kolumbus.fi> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ui231i10hel.dial.kolumbus.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: phys-news1.kolumbus.fi 1032601254 20646 62.248.179.231 (21 Sep 2002 09:40:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@kolumbus.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 09:40:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95089 Paul Ciszek wrote: > We see humans and hobbits engaging in agriculture in LotR, but there seems > to be no mention in LotR or The Silmarillion of anyone else farming. Professor Tolkien made a point (albeit I forget exactly where) that the elves did engage in mining, agriculture and all the other necessary facts of life. That is, they didn't spend their days reciting poetry and picking berries. > The Elves of Mirkwood in _The Hobbit_ clearly purchased food and wine from > humans so regularly that they made a point of returning the empty barrels, > presumably for credit of some sort, but what did they trade? In Beleriand, > Elves made up *most* of the population, so buying provisions from lesser > races wasn't an option. In the Tolkien world humans would not be considered a "lesser race". -JJ ###### From: "cesa" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:44:08 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-73-36.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: venus.btinternet.com 1032615848 17974 213.122.73.36 (21 Sep 2002 13:44:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:44:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95101 Paul Ciszek wrote in message news:H2r9s0.6pr@world.std.com... > We see humans and hobbits engaging in agriculture in LotR, but there seems > to be no mention in LotR or The Silmarillion of anyone else farming. Dwarves > hunt occasionally, and obviously engage in commerce. But does an entire > Elven community like Lothlorien or Imladris subsist on hunting and gathering? Here's a hint - ever see a squirrel in LOTR???? ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: 21 Sep 2002 13:50:00 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1032616200 6213933 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95131 On 21 wrz 2002, "cesa" scribbled loosely: >> We see humans and hobbits engaging in agriculture in LotR, but there >> seems to be no mention in LotR or The Silmarillion of anyone else >> farming. > Dwarves >> hunt occasionally, and obviously engage in commerce. But does an >> entire Elven community like Lothlorien or Imladris subsist on hunting >> and > gathering? > > Here's a hint - ever see a squirrel in LOTR???? > > Only the black ones, and they're inedible.. -- Pradera --- Sometimes I think, oh yes, I could do almost everything I wanted And it makes me cry. ###### From: no.spam@thereisnoy.com (Jereeza) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 14:21:59 GMT Organization: freelancer Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3d8c8064.25717311@news.tel.hr> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ar8-m198.net.hinet.hr X-Trace: as201.hinet.hr 1032617926 430210 195.29.71.198 (21 Sep 2002 14:18:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hinet.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 14:18:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!mango.news.easynet.net!easynet.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.eunet.at!newsfeed.austria.eu.net!news-hub.siol.net!news1.hinet.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95088 Once upon a time, more precisely on Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:16:48 GMT, pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) decided to release into cyberspace: Do Elves really need food? :) Cheers, Mia -- www.thereisnoy.com www.theonering.net [to mail, remove spam] ###### From: dexeron@hotmail.com (Attentive Dragon) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: 21 Sep 2002 08:17:24 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <191C91BDFE8ED411B84400805FBE794C2B7558E9@pfs21.ex.nus.edu.sg> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.86.162.91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1032621444 18253 127.0.0.1 (21 Sep 2002 15:17:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 2002 15:17:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95127 "Joy" wrote in message news:<191C91BDFE8ED411B84400805FBE794C2B7558E9@pfs21.ex.nus.edu.sg>... > "Paul Ciszek" wrote: > > We see humans and hobbits engaging in agriculture in LotR, > > but there seems to be no mention in LotR or The Silmarillion > > of anyone else farming. Dwarves hunt occasionally, and > > obviously engage in commerce. But does an entire Elven > > community like Lothlorien or Imladris subsist on hunting > > and gathering? > > Replicators, I tell you!! In one of Tolkien's lost letters, I am certain he had mentioned the lost cousin of Feanor, Earnier. Earnier led his people to Middle Earth a little bit after, seeking to lost cookies of Valinor. Partially for their presumption, but mainly for their stupidity, the Valar cursed them to be eternally sickeningly cute, but abnormally short. Once in Middle Earth, Earnier (called Earnie by his friends, or Ernie for short) founded a tree city in imitation of the Great Tree at Caras Galadon - except he and his people were so short they had to settle for a middling small oak, with a wooden sign on it. They named thier new home Khebilor, after the realm in Valinor from which they journeyed, but later the name was corrupted in the common tongue to be "Keebler." These "Keebler" elves struck a deal with a mighty tribe of humans known as the Khell-ohg (or Kellogg in the common tongue - a mighty people known mainly for their tasty breakfast treats) who had stood against Sauron's vision of "One World, One Cram" which he tried to force upon the unsuspecting people's of Middle Earth. With the help of the Kellogg, the Keebler elves struck a mighty blow at Sauron by making the people's of Northwest Middle Earth realize that there was actually food OTHER than Cram to eat. They also invented Lembas. Anyway, back to the original question - the Keebler set up a mighty system of trade routes which stretched from Eriador in the west all the way to the unknown lands south of Harad. In exchange for their wonderous elven food which they called "cookies," an item whose manufacturing process they kept a closely guarded secret, the Keebler elves were able to trade for all manner of produce, textile, artifact and tool. This is where the elves got their food. In exchange for the food the Keebler elves gave them, other elven colonies such as Rivendell and Lorien had to promise to stop playing "Let's kick around the Keebler elves" as their national sports. It was a beneficial arrangement for all, until Sauron learned the sacred art of cookie making, sparking the beginning of the War of the Cookies which lasted well into the Third Age... ###### From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <191C91BDFE8ED411B84400805FBE794C2B7558E9@pfs21.ex.nus.edu.sg> Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:25:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.218.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1032621920 65.26.218.54 (Sat, 21 Sep 2002 10:25:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 10:25:20 CDT Organization: RoadRunner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!grr!news-west.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95118 "Attentive Dragon" wrote in message news:a4f3933a.0209210717.11c09aa2@posting.google.com... > Once in Middle Earth, Earnier (called Earnie by his friends, or Ernie > for short) founded a tree city in imitation of the Great Tree at Caras > Galadon - except he and his people were so short they had to settle > for a middling small oak, with a wooden sign on it. They named thier > new home Khebilor, after the realm in Valinor from which they > journeyed, but later the name was corrupted in the common tongue to be > "Keebler." LOL! -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? References: <3D8C3FC8.15A797D3@kolumbus.fi> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:52:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95110 In article <3D8C3FC8.15A797D3@kolumbus.fi>, Jussi Jaatinen wrote: > > Paul Ciszek wrote: > >> We see humans and hobbits engaging in agriculture in LotR, but there seems >> to be no mention in LotR or The Silmarillion of anyone else farming. > > Professor Tolkien made a point (albeit I forget exactly where) that the > elves did engage in mining, agriculture and all the other necessary > facts of life. That is, they didn't spend their days reciting poetry and > picking berries. I believe (and this is purely from memory, so I'll have to check up on it later) that there was some mention of the making of Lembas, which includes a passage on grains. > >> The Elves of Mirkwood in _The Hobbit_ clearly purchased food and wine from >> humans so regularly that they made a point of returning the empty barrels, >> presumably for credit of some sort, but what did they trade? In Beleriand, >> Elves made up *most* of the population, so buying provisions from lesser >> races wasn't an option. > > In the Tolkien world humans would not be considered a "lesser race". Were Elves the greater part of the population during the final years of the First Age? I always thought that the Easterlings must be a pretty big part of it. -- AC ###### From: Jussi Jaatinen Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:30:49 +0300 Organization: Elisa Internet customer Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi> References: <3d8c8064.25717311@news.tel.hr> NNTP-Posting-Host: ui173i21hel.dial.kolumbus.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: phys-news1.kolumbus.fi 1032686756 11044 62.248.190.173 (22 Sep 2002 09:25:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@kolumbus.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 09:25:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!deine.net!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95159 > Do Elves really need food? :) The Elves need food and drink. They are physically extremely similar to humans (similar enough to produce replication-competent offspring) Even in LotR the wandering Noldor in Eriador give the hobbits food and drink from their own. -JJ ###### From: cee@eatspammindspring.com (C. M. Malm) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:18:39 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3d8e944f.3855549@news.mindspring.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.27.44.9a X-Server-Date: 23 Sep 2002 04:17:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95238 On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:25:51 +0200, "Javier Caselli" took keyboard in hand and typed: >The Silmarillion tells only of the let's say "romantic" part of the story: >war, love, victory, defeat, etc. I don't think that any of us would like to >read something like: "...and so Beleg Cuthalion, after a tiresome day of >hunting orcs in the marshes of Doriath, fed the chickens before going to bed >for a well earned sleep...". :-D That's something that's always bothered me a little. Most of the Elves that we meet in the stories are "great and noble," and since Elves in general are always praised as being somehow more splendid than Men, it's awfully easy to get the impression that Elven society consists entirely of people of the upper classes. There are rare examples of "common" Elves, like the Butler and the Captain of the Guard in _The Hobbit_, but they have always seemed "out of character" to me--acting too much like ordinary people to be Tolkien's magnificent Elves. Cee ---- remove spamblocker to reply ###### From: "S.B.Jafri" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:15:56 +0100 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3d8c8064.25717311@news.tel.hr> <3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1185.babbelas.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 1032812201 32160 62.25.149.161 (23 Sep 2002 20:16:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 2002 20:16:41 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95255 > > Do Elves really need food? :) > > The Elves need food and drink. They are physically extremely similar to > humans (similar enough to produce replication-competent offspring) Even > in LotR the wandering Noldor in Eriador give the hobbits food and drink > from their own. In that passage Sam describes the bread as very fine (suggesting that they must harvest wheat for flour) and apples of a quality that he wished he could grow which suggests that they may also have orchards thus growing their own food. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:18:57 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3d8e944f.3855549@news.mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95302 C. M. Malm wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:25:51 +0200, "Javier Caselli" > took keyboard in hand and typed: > >>The Silmarillion tells only of the let's say "romantic" part of the story: >>war, love, victory, defeat, etc. I don't think that any of us would like to >>read something like: "...and so Beleg Cuthalion, after a tiresome day of >>hunting orcs in the marshes of Doriath, fed the chickens before going to bed >>for a well earned sleep...". :-D > >That's something that's always bothered me a little. Most of the Elves >that we meet in the stories are "great and noble," and since Elves in >general are always praised as being somehow more splendid than Men, >it's awfully easy to get the impression that Elven society consists >entirely of people of the upper classes. There are rare examples of >"common" Elves, like the Butler and the Captain of the Guard in _The >Hobbit_, but they have always seemed "out of character" to me--acting >too much like ordinary people to be Tolkien's magnificent Elves. The reason you tend to think of Elves as upper class is that the upper class ones are nearly the only ones we meet. Legolas was a son of a King; Gildor was "of the house of Finrod" and so a high-Elf; Galadriel and Celeborn were quasi-royalty, and so on. But we do meet some ordinary Elves: the ones of Rivendell in /The Hobbit; Haldir in /LotR/, and so forth. Somewhere Sam makes a remark about having a new idea of Elves after seeing them in their own country, which I rather liked. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Ron Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com Organization: EasyNews, UseNet made Easy! - Test our service with our FREE trial at https://www.easynews.com/trial/trial.phtml X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:13:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!easynews-local!post-03.news.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95314 dumpsters. ###### From: "Bratt" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d8e944f.3855549@news.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:13:24 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing Lines: 21 X-Trace: sv3-ROeU3bACnH2M6GuXytP9sHonjW2YslGapu+oELDyoe4770YpE9zrMYol/7EWbTJHAe/L9DIefTAyqA8!2jBhm3a3pULFWT5Aga/2mInnacpT/AxOug6MpZc5ZEah150u/FEN4nl4fQqTTZEALVj/9r9NmEIB!+jPmED8fEXoG8fbu3Olau1UsHzw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:13:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!aotearoa.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95274 > That's something that's always bothered me a little. Most of the Elves > that we meet in the stories are "great and noble," and since Elves in > general are always praised as being somehow more splendid than Men, > it's awfully easy to get the impression that Elven society consists > entirely of people of the upper classes. There are rare examples of > "common" Elves, like the Butler and the Captain of the Guard in _The > Hobbit_, but they have always seemed "out of character" to me--acting > too much like ordinary people to be Tolkien's magnificent Elves. isn't there some distinction between high, middle, and low elves? somewhere in the midst of the lines there had to be some form of hunting or agriculture.. or could it be the mere sake that they actually lived in harmony with the woods.. taking only what was around and available to them in the woods? Ashé'el ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? References: <3d8e944f.3855549@news.mindspring.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:23:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95294 In article , Bratt wrote: > > isn't there some distinction between high, middle, and low elves? somewhere > in the midst of the lines there had to be some form of hunting or > agriculture.. or could it be the mere sake that they actually lived in > harmony with the woods.. taking only what was around and available to them > in the woods? I'm quite sure that cities like Nargothrond, Gondolin, Menegroth, and even settlements like Rivendell, would have required more than hunter-gatherer behavior. The fact is that the characters dealt with in the Silmarillion and LotR are the leaders of the various groups of Elves left in Middle Earth, and not farmers. We don't *see* those people, but I cannot fathom them not being there. Perhaps some of the Silvan Elves were essentially hunter-gatherers, but the Noldorin Exiles? I don't think so. -- AC ###### From: "Moshe Segal" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d8e944f.3855549@news.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Lines: 51 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.39.6.234 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr28.news.prodigy.com 1033103957 ST000 67.39.6.234 (Fri, 27 Sep 2002 00:19:17 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 00:19:17 CDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDONXZUUCR\Y]JJJ_VDAUC\\@G@OKPQL_DILJZ]BGIELNVUEAE[YETZPIWWI[FCIZA^NBFXZ_D[BFNTCNVPDTNTKHWXKB@X^B_OCJLPZ@ET_O[G\XSG@E\G[ZKVLBL^CJINM@I_KVIOR\T_M_AW_M[_BWU_HFA_]@A_A^SGFAUDE_DFTMQPFWVW[QPJN Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 05:19:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!opentransit.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr28.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95461 "C. M. Malm" wrote in message news:3d8e944f.3855549@news.mindspring.com... > That's something that's always bothered me a little. Most of the Elves > that we meet in the stories are "great and noble," and since Elves in > general are always praised as being somehow more splendid than Men, > it's awfully easy to get the impression that Elven society consists > entirely of people of the upper classes. There are rare examples of > "common" Elves, like the Butler and the Captain of the Guard in _The > Hobbit_, but they have always seemed "out of character" to me--acting > too much like ordinary people to be Tolkien's magnificent Elves. I would aggree to this observation, but it seems also that the humans too are depicted as larger than life figures, with some exceptions. The common every-day type in LOTR seem to be found more among the hobbits. The elves, at least in the Hobbit and LOTr seem to be superhuman, almost angelic, and though they do appear to eat, sleep, etc., it appears for the most part to be activities of choice. I cannot give too many examples, except that toward the beggining of the Two Towers, it seems that Legolas does not need sleep for refreshment as do Gimli and Aragorn. Obviously they procreate, as we see couples and lineages. I guess I figured that part of immortality included less need for the physical necessities of humans and animals. Then again, certain of the more coarse parts of life are almost mentioned. For example, sex is only touched upon lightly in reference to Shelob, and anything scatological is non-existent except in the talk of the orcs. It is true, there is one incident of elven drunkenness in the Hobbit, instrumental in Bilbo's plan for the escape of his companions, which seems odd to me since other texts tell us that the First-Born are not effected by diseases as are humans. I have noted that the Elves of the First Age depicted in the Silmarillion resemble more the Humans of the trilogy, but I assume it is more that at that time they were the objects of Tolkien's focus, as opposed to humans and hobbits of later time. One other point in regard to Elves and food. If they did need food to sustain life, it appears that what they needed for nourishment differed from men. Much mention is made of Frodo and Sam and the effect the Lembas had on them. It appeared to give strength and basic nourishment, but not comfortable satiety. In certain ways it resembled the Manna as depicted by some classic Jewish Biblical commentators, good to the taste, having exactly what the body needs and no waste, but not satisfying the animal drive for other types of food. In any case, it seems that the elves had plenty of food available in their settlements, as it never seemed an issue when entertaining those life forms with the need of food, over an extended period of time. Sorry if this seems to ramble somewhat. Many of these ideas came to mind during and after my reading of the books, and were sparked by the quoted tesxt. ###### From: "Moshe Segal" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d8c8064.25717311@news.tel.hr> <3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi> Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.39.6.234 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr28.news.prodigy.com 1033105234 ST000 67.39.6.234 (Fri, 27 Sep 2002 00:40:34 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 00:40:34 CDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: O@ZMRWGDPZRYRULYBBCF_P@@GB^NAGDMJ@GZ_GYO^JWTEPIB_NVUAH_[BL[\IRKIANGGJBFNJF_DOLSCENSY^U@FRFUEXR@KFXYDBPWBCDQJA@X_DCBHXR[C@\EOKCJLED_SZ@RMWYXYWE_P@\\GOIW^@SYFFSWHFIXMADO@^[ADPRPETLBJ]RDGENSKQQZN Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 05:40:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr28.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95462 "Jussi Jaatinen" wrote in message news:3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi... > The Elves need food and drink. They are physically extremely similar to > humans (similar enough to produce replication-competent offspring) Even > in LotR the wandering Noldor in Eriador give the hobbits food and drink > from their own. But do they eat out of need for nourishment, or just for enjoyment? Tolkiens books speak of humans, hobbits and dwarves suffering from hunger and starvation, but if there is any reference to a hungry elf, then I missed it. Additionally it seems that at the beginning of TTT in the pursuit of Merry and Pippin's captors, Legolas is the only one who does not need sleep for refreshment. So how truly close are they biologically to humans besides their general form and the fact that they can produce offspring with each other? ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d8c8064.25717311@news.tel.hr> <3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi> Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.181 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1033134311 213.101.77.181 (Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:45:11 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:45:11 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-77-181.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:47:03 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95419 "Moshe Segal" wrote: [snip] > But do they eat out of need for nourishment, or just for enjoyment? > Tolkiens books speak of humans, hobbits and dwarves suffering from hunger > and starvation, but if there is any reference to a hungry elf, then I > missed it. Additionally it seems that at the beginning of TTT in the > pursuit of Merry and Pippin's captors, Legolas is the only one who does not > need sleep for refreshment. So how truly close are they biologically to > humans besides their general form and the fact that they can produce > offspring with each other? Come to the Restaurant Barrowdelf! Lots of food for a hungry Elf! Since the First Age, we have served Tasty soul food, so spread the word! Öjevind ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d8c8064.25717311@news.tel.hr> <3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi> Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <1bFl9.14225$CN2.13824@nwrddc01.gnilink.net> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:41:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.198.118.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1033314109 151.198.118.102 (Sun, 29 Sep 2002 11:41:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 11:41:49 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95512 "Moshe Segal" wrote in message news:mbSk9.1256$F53.1257012@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com... > But do they eat out of need for nourishment, or just for enjoyment? Nourishment. "Of the thirst and hunger of the thirty moons when they sought for Sirion and were sore bestead by plague and peril..." LoB, Poems Early Abandoned ii This is in reference to the refugees of Gondolin - all Elves except for Tuor and Earendil. ###### From: tar_elenion@hotmail.com (Tar-Elenion) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: 29 Sep 2002 16:37:28 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3d8c8064.25717311@news.tel.hr> <3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi> <1bFl9.14225$CN2.13824@nwrddc01.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.164.237 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033342649 17500 127.0.0.1 (29 Sep 2002 23:37:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 2002 23:37:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95582 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:<1bFl9.14225$CN2.13824@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>... > "Moshe Segal" wrote in message > news:mbSk9.1256$F53.1257012@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com... > > > But do they eat out of need for nourishment, or just for enjoyment? > > Nourishment. > > "Of the thirst and hunger of the thirty moons > when they sought for Sirion and were sore bestead > by plague and peril..." > LoB, Poems Early Abandoned ii > > This is in reference to the refugees of Gondolin - all Elves except > for Tuor and Earendil. There is also (for later references): "For they were now in evil case: it was long since they had found any food in the wild, ans the waybread was dwindling; and they were cold and weary." UT, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin. The "they" are Tuor and Voronwe. Also: "Then at the egging of Androg they left Beleg tied to the tree with out food or water...". UT, Narn I Hin Hurin Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: 29 Sep 2002 21:18:07 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3d8c8064.25717311@news.tel.hr> <3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.206.150.185 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033359487 32065 127.0.0.1 (30 Sep 2002 04:18:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Sep 2002 04:18:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95563 "Moshe Segal" wrote in message news:... > "Jussi Jaatinen" wrote in message > news:3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi... > > The Elves need food and drink. They are physically extremely similar to > > humans (similar enough to produce replication-competent offspring) Even > > in LotR the wandering Noldor in Eriador give the hobbits food and drink > > from their own. > > But do they eat out of need for nourishment, or just for enjoyment? > Tolkiens books speak of humans, hobbits and dwarves suffering from hunger > and starvation, but if there is any reference to a hungry elf, then I > missed it. Additionally it seems that at the beginning of TTT in the > pursuit of Merry and Pippin's captors, Legolas is the only one who does not > need sleep for refreshment. So how truly close are they biologically to > humans besides their general form and the fact that they can produce > offspring with each other? Elves essentially _are_ human physically, or so close as no matter. The difference between us and them is _spiritual_. As I noted once before, a modern forensic pathologist would probably have a hard time telling the difference between an Elven and a Human corpse. Shermanlee ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Where do Elves get their food? Date: 30 Sep 2002 11:41:00 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1033400461 22859 166.84.1.1 (30 Sep 2002 15:41:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:41:01 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!jfk3-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95530 In article , Johnny1A wrote: >"Moshe Segal" wrote in message news:... >> "Jussi Jaatinen" wrote in message >> news:3D8D8DC9.61548B37@kolumbus.fi... >> > The Elves need food and drink. They are physically extremely similar to >> > humans (similar enough to produce replication-competent offspring) Even >> > in LotR the wandering Noldor in Eriador give the hobbits food and drink >> > from their own. >> But do they eat out of need for nourishment, or just for enjoyment? >> Tolkiens books speak of humans, hobbits and dwarves suffering from hunger >> and starvation, but if there is any reference to a hungry elf, then I >> missed it. Additionally it seems that at the beginning of TTT in the >> pursuit of Merry and Pippin's captors, Legolas is the only one who does not >> need sleep for refreshment. So how truly close are they biologically to >> humans besides their general form and the fact that they can produce >> offspring with each other? >Elves essentially _are_ human physically, or so close as no matter. >The difference between us and them is _spiritual_. > >As I noted once before, a modern forensic pathologist would probably >have a hard time telling the difference between an Elven and a Human >corpse. Couldn't he just look at the ears? < ...running for cover... :-) > -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com