From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: The "Lord of the Rings" as an allegory Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 07:18:55 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 76 Message-ID: <3d82e1df.19298033@news.saix.net> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr54-01-p497.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1031987943 12541 155.239.185.241 (14 Sep 2002 07:19:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2002 07:19:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94624 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:33:36 -0500 (EST) From: M------ H------- Subject: OT: Lord of the Rings as an Allegory for the Ph.D. For those of you who have done some grad work... (forwarded from someone here) Lord of the Rings as an allegory for the Ph.D?? story starts with Frodo: a young hobbit, quite bright, a bit dissatisfied with what he's learnt so far and with his mates back home who just seem to want to get jobs and settle down and drink beer. He's also very much in awe of his tutor and mentor, the very senior professor Gandalf, so when Gandalf suggests he take on a short project for him (carrying the Ring to Rivendell), he agrees. Frodo very quickly encounters the shadowy forces of fear and despair which will haunt the rest of his journey and leave permanent scars on his psyche, but he also makes some useful friends. In particular, he spends an evening down at the pub with Aragorn, who has been wandering the world for many years as Gandalf's postdoc and becomes his adviser when Gandalf isn't around. After Frodo has completed his first project, Gandalf (along with head of department Elrond) proposes that the work should be extended. He assembles a large research group, including visiting students Gimli and Legolas, the foreign postdoc Boromir, and several of Frodo's own friends from his undergraduate days. Frodo agrees to tackle this larger project, though he has mixed feelings about it. ("'I will take the Ring', he said, 'although I do not know why.'") Very rapidly, things go wrong. First, Gandalf disappears and has no more interaction with Frodo until everything is over. (Frodo assumes his supervisor is dead: in fact, he's simply found a more interesting topic and is working on that instead.) At his first international conference in Lorien, Frodo is cross-examined terrifyingly by Galadriel, and betrayed by Boromir, who is anxious to get the credit for the work himself. Frodo cuts himself off from the rest of his team: from now on, he will only discuss his work with Sam, an old friend who doesn't really understand what it's all about, but in any case is prepared to give Frodo credit for being rather cleverer than he is. Then he sets out towards Mordor. The last and darkest period of Frodo's journey clearly represents the writing-up stage, as he struggles towards Mount Doom (submission), finding his burden growing heavier and heavier yet more and more a part of himself; more and more terrified of failure; plagued by the figure of Gollum, the student who carried the Ring before him but never wrote up and still hangs around as a burnt-out, jealous shadow; talking less and less even to Sam. When he submits the Ring to the fire, it is in desperate confusion rather than with confidence, and for a while the world seems empty. Eventually it is over: the Ring is gone, everyone congratulates him, and for a few days he can convince himself that his troubles are over. But there is one more obstacle to overcome: months later, back in the Shire, he must confront the external examiner Saruman, an old enemy of Gandalf, who seeks to humiliate and destroy his rival's protege. With the help of his friends and colleagues, Frodo passes through this ordeal, but discovers at the end that victory has no value left for him. While his friends return to settling down and finding jobs and starting families, Frodo remains in limbo; finally, along with Gandalf, Elrond and many others, he joins the brain drain across the Western ocean to the new land beyond. --- End of forwarded message --- -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.methodius.bookcrossing.com/ ###### From: Bagronk the Happy Orc Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The "Lord of the Rings" as an allegory Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:23:23 +0200 Message-ID: <5sicou0j5c8id6qvkgf3t4hpqo5ev144en@4ax.com> References: <3d82e1df.19298033@news.saix.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.254.130.186 X-Trace: 16 Sep 2002 23:22:31 +0200, 145.254.130.186 Lines: 40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-ip.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.arcor-ip.de!news.arcor-ip.de!145.254.130.186 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94846 I found some words from hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) in my phone cable... > > Lord of the Rings as an allegory for the Ph.D?? > > (snipsnap) > The last and darkest period of Frodo's journey clearly represents the > writing-up stage, as he struggles towards Mount Doom (submission), finding > his burden growing heavier and heavier yet more and more a part of > himself; more and more terrified of failure; plagued by the figure of > Gollum, the student who carried the Ring before him but never wrote up and > still hangs around as a burnt-out, jealous shadow; talking less and less > even to Sam. When he submits the Ring to the fire, it is in desperate > confusion rather than with confidence, and for a while the world seems > empty. A truly impressive analysis. But as much as I agree about Mount Doom representing "submission", I wonder about the question: submission of what? Could it not be an allegory for, well, LotR and the process of its writing, getting heavier and heavier (away from child-like Hobbit style) while Tolkien wrote it, laboriously, in more than a decade? Then Sam, the faithful fellow, would represent Rayner Unwin. Aragorn would be C.S. Lewis - busily writing his own books / acquiring his own kingdom, but ever a friend from afar. Gollum would be an impersonation of Tolkien's college work, ever hindering him from finishing his book. Is LotR an allegory for itself? What would you call it - a meta-allegory? [sorry... my server doesn't know alt.books.inklings] -- Baggy You keep buying these things but you don't need them But as long as you're comfortable it feels like freedom (Billy Bragg, North Sea Bubble) ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: The "Lord of the Rings" as an allegory Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 03:44:47 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 51 Message-ID: <3d86a518.131723721@news.saix.net> References: <3d82e1df.19298033@news.saix.net> <5sicou0j5c8id6qvkgf3t4hpqo5ev144en@4ax.com> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr54-01-p72.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1032234295 20858 155.239.184.72 (17 Sep 2002 03:44:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2002 03:44:55 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94857 On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:23:23 +0200, Bagronk the Happy Orc wrote: >I found some words from hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) in my phone >cable... >> >> Lord of the Rings as an allegory for the Ph.D?? >> >> (snipsnap) >> The last and darkest period of Frodo's journey clearly represents the >> writing-up stage, as he struggles towards Mount Doom (submission), finding >> his burden growing heavier and heavier yet more and more a part of >> himself; more and more terrified of failure; plagued by the figure of >> Gollum, the student who carried the Ring before him but never wrote up and >> still hangs around as a burnt-out, jealous shadow; talking less and less >> even to Sam. When he submits the Ring to the fire, it is in desperate >> confusion rather than with confidence, and for a while the world seems >> empty. > >A truly impressive analysis. But as much as I agree about Mount Doom >representing "submission", I wonder about the question: submission of >what? > >Could it not be an allegory for, well, LotR and the process of its >writing, getting heavier and heavier (away from child-like Hobbit >style) while Tolkien wrote it, laboriously, in more than a decade? > >Then Sam, the faithful fellow, would represent Rayner Unwin. Aragorn >would be C.S. Lewis - busily writing his own books / acquiring his own >kingdom, but ever a friend from afar. Gollum would be an impersonation >of Tolkien's college work, ever hindering him from finishing his book. > >Is LotR an allegory for itself? What would you call it - a >meta-allegory? Perhaps Tolkien was an allegory of himself, and that would explain his statements that he dislike allegory! The tossing the ring into Mount Doom is an allegory of self-discovery, when he discovered his real self instead of an allegorical one. >[sorry... my server doesn't know alt.books.inklings] That's a pity - sometimes its useful to compare their writings, and that's quite a useful place to do it. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.methodius.bookcrossing.com/ ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The "Lord of the Rings" as an allegory Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:50:37 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3d82e1df.19298033@news.saix.net> <5sicou0j5c8id6qvkgf3t4hpqo5ev144en@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.10.0d X-Server-Date: 18 Sep 2002 04:50:38 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!208.49.253.98!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!jblanks Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94948 Bagronk the Happy Orc wrote: >Is LotR an allegory for itself? What would you call it - a >meta-allegory? I certainly see some meta-statements (of a sort) in it. You could apply the disordered state of Bilbo's writings to the disordered state of "The Silmarillion"; it could even be a story-internal explanation for that. -- "Composers tend to think that most people really care a lot about music. Well, most people don't." --Aaron Copland ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The "Lord of the Rings" as an allegory Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:52:15 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <6cfgousfmvopsgv3phc34tdob24b9rflah@4ax.com> Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3d82e1df.19298033@news.saix.net> <5sicou0j5c8id6qvkgf3t4hpqo5ev144en@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:95009 On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:50:37 -0400, jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) wrote: >Bagronk the Happy Orc wrote: > >>Is LotR an allegory for itself? What would you call it - a >>meta-allegory? > >I certainly see some meta-statements (of a sort) in it. You could apply >the disordered state of Bilbo's writings to the disordered state of "The >Silmarillion"; it could even be a story-internal explanation for that. Actually the whole corpus of Tolkien's writing is an allegory of the novel _Naked Came the Stranger_ by Erica Jong. The tales of Middle-earth were composed by the staff of the Milton Keynes Weekly Advertiser as an editorial jeu d'espirit on 1952. Ali Mahmood Al-Sukiyaki Kamikazi Al-Qaida ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: The "Lord of the Rings" as an allegory Date: 18 Sep 2002 05:38:52 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 83 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0209180438.5bf7886@posting.google.com> References: <3d82e1df.19298033@news.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1032352732 14094 127.0.0.1 (18 Sep 2002 12:38:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2002 12:38:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94997 hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<3d82e1df.19298033@news.saix.net>... > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:33:36 -0500 (EST) > From: M------ H------- > Subject: OT: Lord of the Rings as an Allegory for the Ph.D. > > For those of you who have done some grad work... > (forwarded from someone here) > > Lord of the Rings as an allegory for the Ph.D?? > > story starts with Frodo: a young hobbit, quite bright, a bit dissatisfied > with what he's learnt so far and with his mates back home who just seem to > want to get jobs and settle down and drink beer. He's also very much in > awe of his tutor and mentor, the very senior professor Gandalf, so when > Gandalf suggests he take on a short project for him (carrying the Ring to > Rivendell), he agrees. > > Frodo very quickly encounters the shadowy forces of fear and despair which > will haunt the rest of his journey and leave permanent scars on his > psyche, but he also makes some useful friends. In particular, he spends an > evening down at the pub with Aragorn, who has been wandering the world for > many years as Gandalf's postdoc and becomes his adviser when Gandalf isn't > around. > > After Frodo has completed his first project, Gandalf (along with head of > department Elrond) proposes that the work should be extended. He assembles > a large research group, including visiting students Gimli and Legolas, the > foreign postdoc Boromir, and several of Frodo's own friends from his > undergraduate days. > > Frodo agrees to tackle this larger project, though he has mixed feelings > about it. ("'I will take the Ring', he said, 'although I do not know > why.'") > > Very rapidly, things go wrong. First, Gandalf disappears and has no more > interaction with Frodo until everything is over. (Frodo assumes his > supervisor is dead: in fact, he's simply found a more interesting topic > and is working on that instead.) At his first international conference in > Lorien, Frodo is cross-examined terrifyingly by Galadriel, and betrayed by > Boromir, who is anxious to get the credit for the work himself. Frodo cuts > himself off from the rest of his team: from now on, he will only discuss > his work with Sam, an old friend who doesn't really understand what it's > all about, but in any case is prepared to give Frodo credit for being > rather cleverer than he is. > > Then he sets out towards Mordor. > > The last and darkest period of Frodo's journey clearly represents the > writing-up stage, as he struggles towards Mount Doom (submission), finding > his burden growing heavier and heavier yet more and more a part of > himself; more and more terrified of failure; plagued by the figure of > Gollum, the student who carried the Ring before him but never wrote up and > still hangs around as a burnt-out, jealous shadow; talking less and less > even to Sam. When he submits the Ring to the fire, it is in desperate > confusion rather than with confidence, and for a while the world seems > empty. > > Eventually it is over: the Ring is gone, everyone congratulates him, and > for a few days he can convince himself that his troubles are over. But > there is one more obstacle to overcome: months later, back in the Shire, > he must confront the external examiner Saruman, an old enemy of Gandalf, > who seeks to humiliate and destroy his rival's protege. With the help of > his friends and colleagues, Frodo passes through this ordeal, but > discovers at the end that victory has no value left for him. While his > friends return to settling down and finding jobs and starting families, > Frodo remains in limbo; finally, along with Gandalf, Elrond and many > others, he joins the brain drain across the Western ocean to the new land > beyond. > > --- End of forwarded message --- Too true to be good, aside of "meta" which I cordially dislike. But there was a week (in my own dissertation quest) when it was the last day to get the Dean to sign my request and he refused to see me (I turned it in without his signature. Nobody ever mentioned or noticed that it was not signed.) that I could have been in Mordor. But nearly every project I have completed had a time near the end when all seemed lost and after a bit of really pushing on, the day was saved. It seems as if life has any lesson it is to persevere. And that is what I learned from Frodo. Never, never, never give up.