From: norman.deschamps@indigomoon.ca (rogue) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: sign scratched on Bilbo's door Date: 7 Sep 2002 10:19:32 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.227.114.240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1031419172 10313 127.0.0.1 (7 Sep 2002 17:19:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 2002 17:19:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94328 Can anybody tell me what the sign for "thief/adventurer" that Gandalf scratched into Bilbo's door in The Hobbit looks like? I've looked around, and nobody has anything on it. I'm wondering if it would be a dwarven rune or something in Tengwar or maybe just some odd sign altogether. I cannot find any description of it, and I would like to include it in a picture I'm doing of Bilbo's door. Any suggestions or opinions welcome! Thanks Norm norman.deschamps@NSPAM_indigomoon.ca Remove the NSPAM_ ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (coyotes rand mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: sign scratched on Bilbo's door Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:43:43 -0700 Organization: dis mariposa Message-ID: References: <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c48.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94307 In article <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com>, norman.deschamps@indigomoon.ca (rogue) wrote: > Can anybody tell me what the sign for "thief/adventurer" that Gandalf > scratched into Bilbo's door in The Hobbit looks like? I've looked > around, and nobody has anything on it. I'm wondering if it would be a > dwarven rune or something in Tengwar or maybe just some odd sign > altogether. I cannot find any description of it, and I would like to > include it in a picture I'm doing of Bilbo's door. bilbo apparently didnt notice it so it would something not easily seen unless youre specifically looking for it ###### Message-ID: <3D7A4F31.A930F660@acm.org> Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:10:45 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: sign scratched on Bilbo's door References: <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.236 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1031425782 18921 207.199.164.236 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94343 rogue wrote: > > Can anybody tell me what the sign for "thief/adventurer" that Gandalf > scratched into Bilbo's door in The Hobbit looks like? I've looked As far as I know, Tolkien never said. Perhaps one of the folks with the new "Annotated Hobbit" has a newly-found scratch from the good professor. At any rate, signs like this did exist in rural England, and in the rural U.S. at least as late as the 1930s. In England I've most commonly heard them called gypsy signs. In the U.S. they are associated with hobos, who used them to mark places that were safe or dangerous for their fellows. You can probably find documentation about the real-world signs. Of course, the actual sign Gandalf used would have been based on the icons common in Middle Earth rather than on those common in England. It's likely that Tolkien inserted this plot device because he knew his readers would be familiar with it. It didn't matter to the story what the sign actually was (remember Gandalf removed it when its use was over). It probably didn't matter to Tolkien unless he took a fancy to draw that scene. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: sign scratched on Bilbo's door Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:48:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.27 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1031435339 12.79.22.27 (Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:48:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:48:59 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94239 "rogue" wrote in message news:4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com... > Can anybody tell me what the sign for "thief/adventurer" that Gandalf > scratched into Bilbo's door in The Hobbit looks like? If you can get hold of a copy of 'J.R.R. Tolkien Artist and Illustrator' you can see it... Image #91, 'Gandalf'. That said, it appears on the right side of the door a little below halfway down. It shows the rune for B (a B with the two right pointing bumps being triangular in shape), the rune for D (an X with lines drawn on the left and right to make a 'bowtie' like shape), and a diamond (meaning a square drawn point downwards). These are drawn in a line going downwards in the same order given here. They were meant to indicate, 'Burglar wants a good job, plenty of Excitement and reasonable Reward'. Possibly the three symbols would literally be shorthand for something like, 'Burglar Desires treasure'. ###### Message-ID: <3D7AAAD6.CE383095@acm.org> Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:41:45 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: sign scratched on Bilbo's door References: <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.210 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1031449240 18919 207.199.164.210 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94350 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > If you can get hold of a copy of 'J.R.R. Tolkien Artist and > Illustrator' you can see it... Image #91, 'Gandalf'. > > That said, it appears on the right side of the door a little below > halfway down. It shows the rune for B (a B with the two right > pointing bumps being triangular in shape), the rune for D (an X with > lines drawn on the left and right to make a 'bowtie' like shape), and > a diamond (meaning a square drawn point downwards). These are drawn > in a line going downwards in the same order given here. They were > meant to indicate, 'Burglar wants a good job, plenty of Excitement > and reasonable Reward'. Possibly the three symbols would literally > be shorthand for something like, 'Burglar Desires treasure'. Excellent. I've heard of that title, some day I hope it will bubble to visibility in my local life. But I'm vaguely disappointed that he transliterated an English thought. Not that it's important. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: sign scratched on Bilbo's door Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 23:00:55 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94289 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"rogue" wrote in message >news:4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com... > >> Can anybody tell me what the sign for "thief/adventurer" that Gandalf >> scratched into Bilbo's door in The Hobbit looks like? > >If you can get hold of a copy of 'J.R.R. Tolkien Artist and >Illustrator' you can see it... Image #91, 'Gandalf'. I have never understood how merely by banging on the door with his stick, Gandalf could "knock out" the sign without also destroying the paint job. The first magical act of the wizard, I suppose, performed off stage. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: sign scratched on Bilbo's door Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:21:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1031480468 12.79.23.102 (Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:21:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:21:08 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94228 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.17e487757b9641c4989fc6@news.odyssey.net... > I have never understood how merely by banging on the door with his > stick, Gandalf could "knock out" the sign without also destroying > the paint job. > The first magical act of the wizard, I suppose, performed off stage. Hrrrm? I think you are mixing up the sequence. Gandalf banged on the door with his staff to >wipe out< the sign; "After a while he stepped up, and with the spike of his staff scratched a queer sign on the hobbit's beautiful green front-door." Interesting side note: I cannot think of even one representation of Gandalf's staff which correctly showed a spike on one end. They all seem to be rough or, at best, shaped wooden staves rather than the more elaborate affair which seems to be implied. "He had made quite a dent on the beautiful door; he had also, by the way, knocked out the secret mark that he had put there the morning before." TH, An Unexpected Party Another interesting note: Later in the chapter Gloin states that there is a mark on the door and Gandalf confirms this, "'Of course there is a mark', said Gandalf. 'I put it there myself.'". And yet, by then the mark was gone and he should rather have said that there WAS one instead of still 'IS'. ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: sign scratched on Bilbo's door Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:23:19 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94295 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"Stan Brown" wrote in message >news:MPG.17e487757b9641c4989fc6@news.odyssey.net... > >> I have never understood how merely by banging on the door with his >> stick, Gandalf could "knock out" the sign without also destroying >> the paint job. >Hrrrm? I think you are mixing up the sequence. Gandalf banged on >the door with his staff to >wipe out< the sign; What you said is what I said: arriving for tea, he banged on the door to wipe out the sign (which he had himself put there earlier). >"He had made quite a dent on the beautiful door; he had also, by the >way, knocked out the secret mark that he had put there the morning >before." This was the part I had forgotten: the fact that Tolkien does says Gandalf dented the door. Somehow, however many times I've read /The Hobbit/, I've always had the picture in my head of Gandalf leaving the door unmarred, so that Bilbo not only didn't see the sign but also didn't know anything was amiss. (Even so, we have to wonder how Bilbo managed to miss a sign that was on his own front door from Tuesday morning until tea-time Wednesday. Did he never set foot outside in 36 hours? Or did he just happen not to look at his own front door when going inside? I've just done a quick skim and I don't see any mention of any other doors, since the main hall winds into The Hill.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com "Thoroughness. I always tell my students, but they are constitutionally averse to painstaking work." -- Emma Thompson, in /Wit/ (2000) ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4a586e3a.0209070919.42e6f0d9@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: sign scratched on Bilbo's door Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 18:43:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1031510609 12.79.23.74 (Sun, 08 Sep 2002 18:43:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 18:43:29 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:94224 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.17e5518ec6099725989fcf@news.odyssey.net... > What you said is what I said: arriving for tea, he banged on the > door to wipe out the sign (which he had himself put there earlier). Oh. Duh. Sorry, for some reason I thought you were saying that he knocked on the door to CREATE the sign. > This was the part I had forgotten: the fact that Tolkien does says > Gandalf dented the door. Somehow, however many times I've read /The > Hobbit/, I've always had the picture in my head of Gandalf leaving > the door unmarred, so that Bilbo not only didn't see the sign but > also didn't know anything was amiss. That explains it. The absence of the sign makes sense with the mauling Gandalf apparently gave the door, but as you note that (and the fact that Bilbo was apparently unaware of the runes) is rather odd in itself.