From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Higher Dimensions and Middle-earth (was: OT: Dimensionless variables) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:30:30 -0400 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3D697FD2.2F2918D5@ThisIsFake.Fk> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbVK1blcyXBv3LJwMg16U04415rzJ8JYBw3Yn3LGyK/FGbR+ELFHCW2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2002 02:06:47 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93512 Steuard Jensen wrote: > Ah, but as a theorist, I found it most natural to measure innate power > in dimensionless units. :) Or, more seriously, I decided to make the > already ridiculously complicated formulae a bit simpler by leaving out > one of the parameters. I doubt that it helped much, and it did > introduce the dimensional problem you mention (which I was aware of > and chose to recklessly ignore), so maybe I should have left it in. > Even better, I could have avoided all the technical mumbo-jumbo > entirely. :) Speaking of which... I've heard that, according to string theory, there are eleven physical dimensions. Could the "wraith-world" where the Nazgūl live be parallel to our physical plane in the direction of one of these "hidden" dimensions? Does putting on the Ring move you along this hidden coordinate? Is the "Straight Road" to Aman also in this dimension? Does Glorfindel have the ability, learned from the Valar, to move in this hidden direction? Please advise. -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Higher Dimensions and Middle-earth (was: OT: Dimensionless variables) References: <3D697FD2.2F2918D5@ThisIsFake.Fk> <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 02:39:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!opentransit.net!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93532 In article <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org>, Flame of the West wrote: > Steuard Jensen wrote: > >> Ah, but as a theorist, I found it most natural to measure innate power >> in dimensionless units. :) Or, more seriously, I decided to make the >> already ridiculously complicated formulae a bit simpler by leaving out >> one of the parameters. I doubt that it helped much, and it did >> introduce the dimensional problem you mention (which I was aware of >> and chose to recklessly ignore), so maybe I should have left it in. >> Even better, I could have avoided all the technical mumbo-jumbo >> entirely. :) Speaking of which... > > I've heard that, according to string theory, there are eleven > physical dimensions. Could the "wraith-world" where the Nazgūl > live be parallel to our physical plane in the direction of one of > these "hidden" dimensions? Does putting on the Ring move > you along this hidden coordinate? Is the "Straight Road" to Aman > also in this dimension? Does Glorfindel have the ability, learned > from the Valar, to move in this hidden direction? Please advise. Though I'm not very knowledgeable in physics, as I recall, those higher dimensions are turned in on themselves, and approach the Planck length. I think wraiths are a bit bigger than that. -- AC ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Higher Dimensions and Middle-earth (was: OT: Dimensionless variables) References: <3D697FD2.2F2918D5@ThisIsFake.Fk> <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <%ZDa9.67$K4.14532@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1030425595 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 27 Aug 2002 00:19:55 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 00:19:55 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: %ZDa9-13841-K4-14513@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: ca637171 6a274217 6b2d43f6 360864e9 64660e3d Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 05:19:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93504 Quoth FotW@nospam.solinas.org in article <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org>: > I've heard that, according to string theory, there are eleven > physical dimensions. Could the "wraith-world" where the Nazgūl live > be parallel to our physical plane in the direction of one of these > "hidden" dimensions? Intriguing thought: if we assume a brane-world scenario, then the "wraith-world" could just be a "hidden" 3-brane parallel to our own "observable" brane. Under normal conditions, only gravity would connect the two, but perhaps the Rings (and possibly other magics) could serve to induce an enhanced coupling between the two (maybe the Rings were composed of matter that was charged on both branes, which would tend to pull them together at that location). Matter in Valinor might have that same property, so that those Eldar who lived there would incorporate much of that "doubly-charged" matter into their own bodies, allowing them to live at once in both worlds. This works frighteningly well. :) I'm almost afraid to push the idea further, lest I stop treating it as a joke and start taking it as a serious idea about Middle-earth. Ugh. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Higher Dimensions and Middle-earth (was: OT: Dimensionless variables) Date: 27 Aug 2002 03:04:58 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 39 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0208270204.48da98d2@posting.google.com> References: <3D697FD2.2F2918D5@ThisIsFake.Fk> <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030442699 7175 127.0.0.1 (27 Aug 2002 10:04:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2002 10:04:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93546 AC wrote in message news:... > In article <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org>, Flame of the West wrote: > > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > > >> Ah, but as a theorist, I found it most natural to measure innate power > >> in dimensionless units. :) Or, more seriously, I decided to make the > >> already ridiculously complicated formulae a bit simpler by leaving out > >> one of the parameters. I doubt that it helped much, and it did > >> introduce the dimensional problem you mention (which I was aware of > >> and chose to recklessly ignore), so maybe I should have left it in. > >> Even better, I could have avoided all the technical mumbo-jumbo > >> entirely. :) Speaking of which... > > > > I've heard that, according to string theory, there are eleven > > physical dimensions. Could the "wraith-world" where the Nazgūl > > live be parallel to our physical plane in the direction of one of > > these "hidden" dimensions? Does putting on the Ring move > > you along this hidden coordinate? Is the "Straight Road" to Aman > > also in this dimension? Does Glorfindel have the ability, learned > > from the Valar, to move in this hidden direction? Please advise. > > Though I'm not very knowledgeable in physics, as I recall, those higher > dimensions are turned in on themselves, and approach the Planck length. I > think wraiths are a bit bigger than that. As I understand it (and mostly I don't since these dimensions are more mathematical than something we "see.") there is a possible "sideways" in time where every possible option is real. Thus Schrodinger's cat is alive in one and dead in the other. The wave / partical problem is just an aspect of that. In one dimension they are waves and particles in another - just not exactly that way. Don't ask me exactly which way. However, to get back to Tolkien, they may be possibly alive in one world and through some sort of mental will affect our world - as ghost perhaps. That is the direction a description would take. I will leave details to others. But it sort of makes sense. Is that good enough? ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Higher Dimensions and Middle-earth (was: OT: Dimensionless variables) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:39:09 -0400 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3D6B107D.A963D95B@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3D697FD2.2F2918D5@ThisIsFake.Fk> <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaOTLaG8y4RZOCL8HwgfqmDoPirZB7OV7TkYD5lkHYcfHoXcUA7+cOb X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2002 08:58:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93517 AC wrote: > Though I'm not very knowledgeable in physics, as I recall, those higher > dimensions are turned in on themselves, and approach the Planck length. I > think wraiths are a bit bigger than that. Along the usual three spatial coordinates, yes. But they have just a bit of wiggle room in the other direction. Problem is you aren't looking there, you pathetic three- dimensional creature you. -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Higher Dimensions and Middle-earth (was: OT: Dimensionless variables) References: <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org> <%ZDa9.67$K4.14532@news.uchicago.edu> <3D6BBF7D.31B3CCA4@ThisIsFake.Fk> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1030477934 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:52:14 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:52:14 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: OLQa9-18159-K4-19703@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: b9394366 bb76e033 2cc6fa1f 94a8bdbc ad081a97 Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:52:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93604 Quoth Troels Forchhammer in article <3D6BBF7D.31B3CCA4@ThisIsFake.Fk>: > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Intriguing thought: if we assume a brane-world scenario, then the > > "wraith-world" could just be a "hidden" 3-brane parallel to our > > own "observable" brane. > Would this be capable of explaining how a person in the hidden > 3-brane could observe (though imperfectly) events in the normal? Or > how this person was able to move in the normal? Well, it would need to be supplemented with some notion of living "souls" spanning the two branes just as the Rings did. In that case, wraiths in the hidden brane would be able to "see" the presence of living things, though it wouldn't allow them to observe them visually in the normal sense. If they retained a weak connection to the "normal" brane, then they might still have some basic level of normal vision available to them, though why any of their senses would get better at night would be entirely mysterious. (Maybe the fluctuations in the normal brane due to all those extra photons would make the connection between the branes "fuzzy" and thus cloud the perceptions of wraith-brane creatures.) As for motion, the "familiar" directions of space and time would be the same on the two branes: they're assumed to be parallel, after all. They'd just be separated by some arbitrary distance in a fifth direction, imperceptible to us brane-bound creatures. Thus, moving to the north on the hidden brane would precisely correspond to moving north on the normal brane. Now, it's possible that at some points, the two branes would be closer together than at others (Aman, maybe? Mount Doom?), so moving in "familiar" directions could lead to motion in the extra dimension as well. Now, I wonder if I could come up with some way in which physics on the hidden brane could make Tolkien-style telepathy work... :) As I said earlier, this whole idea is disturbingly reasonable. I obviously don't take it seriously, but it could make one heck of a crackpot theory if I were to sit down and work it all out. (Then again, maybe some of the intuitive results of brane-world physics could lead to very natural features of _any_ general "parallel universe" idea, in which case we _could_ learn something about Middle-earth by modeling it in this way. Nah.) Steuard Jensen ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Higher Dimensions and Middle-earth (was: OT: Dimensionless variables) Date: 30 Aug 2002 10:30:00 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 50 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0208300930.46961a1c@posting.google.com> References: <3D6AD637.813371B9@nospam.solinas.org> <%ZDa9.67$K4.14532@news.uchicago.edu> <3D6BBF7D.31B3CCA4@ThisIsFake.Fk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030728601 2369 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2002 17:30:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2002 17:30:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93772 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:... > Quoth Troels Forchhammer in article > <3D6BBF7D.31B3CCA4@ThisIsFake.Fk>: > > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > > Intriguing thought: if we assume a brane-world scenario, then the > > > "wraith-world" could just be a "hidden" 3-brane parallel to our > > > own "observable" brane. > > > Would this be capable of explaining how a person in the hidden > > 3-brane could observe (though imperfectly) events in the normal? Or > > how this person was able to move in the normal? > > Well, it would need to be supplemented with some notion of living > "souls" spanning the two branes just as the Rings did. In that case, > wraiths in the hidden brane would be able to "see" the presence of > living things, though it wouldn't allow them to observe them visually > in the normal sense. If they retained a weak connection to the > "normal" brane, then they might still have some basic level of normal > vision available to them, though why any of their senses would get > better at night would be entirely mysterious. (Maybe the fluctuations > in the normal brane due to all those extra photons would make the > connection between the branes "fuzzy" and thus cloud the perceptions > of wraith-brane creatures.) > > As for motion, the "familiar" directions of space and time would be > the same on the two branes: they're assumed to be parallel, after all. > They'd just be separated by some arbitrary distance in a fifth > direction, imperceptible to us brane-bound creatures. Thus, moving to > the north on the hidden brane would precisely correspond to moving > north on the normal brane. Now, it's possible that at some points, > the two branes would be closer together than at others (Aman, maybe? > Mount Doom?), so moving in "familiar" directions could lead to motion > in the extra dimension as well. > > Now, I wonder if I could come up with some way in which physics on the > hidden brane could make Tolkien-style telepathy work... :) As I said > earlier, this whole idea is disturbingly reasonable. I obviously > don't take it seriously, but it could make one heck of a crackpot > theory if I were to sit down and work it all out. (Then again, maybe > some of the intuitive results of brane-world physics could lead to > very natural features of _any_ general "parallel universe" idea, in > which case we _could_ learn something about Middle-earth by modeling > it in this way. Nah.) > Steuard Jensen How would you feel if someone does model it and wins the Nobel prize? "I could have..." Go for it!