From: "Halo" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:18:09 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93256 What did the Tolkien family think of the LOTR movies? ###### From: stuart@inetnebr.com (Stuart Johnson) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Message-ID: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 17 Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:15:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.50.4.103 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 1030223700 209.50.4.103 (Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:15:00 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:15:00 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!209.242.76.12.MISMATCH!slurp.net!newsrouter1.slurp.net!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93239 On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:18:09 +0100, "Halo" wrote: >What did the Tolkien family think of the LOTR movies? > > > My understanding is that they were split. Most of them being against the movie being made. Stuart Johnson stuart@_SPAM_BLOCK_inetnebr.com Stuart's Castle http://incolor.inetnebr.com/stuart/ Henshin Hall Of Fame http://henshin.250x.com/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1030283992 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 25 Aug 2002 08:59:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 08:59:52 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: sp5a9-1098-K4-987@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 479e4bff a9f7798b 51907985 fe7cc0a6 57582bde Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:59:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93325 Quoth stuart@inetnebr.com (Stuart Johnson) in article <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com>: > On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:18:09 +0100, "Halo" wrote: > >What did the Tolkien family think of the LOTR movies? > My understanding is that they were split. Most of them being against > the movie being made. I had thought that most of them were just making a point of not implicitly giving the movie their blessing by getting involved, though may recall a comment by Christopher that he thought making a movie "right" would be nearly impossible. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Colin Chisholm Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 25 Aug 2002 20:42:49 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbKDGM0JiXMcee+AEK/BylNASScFL9RmehFVEWXbpcelUohvnM4skaj X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Aug 2002 20:42:49 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!jpix!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93393 "Halo" wrote in news:umfq81pd10v467@corp.supernews.com: > What did the Tolkien family think of the LOTR movies? There has been no public comment as of yet, and I seriously doubt there will be. My understanding of the issue is that the film rights were out of the Tolkien Estate's hands or they would have blocked the films being made at all. Christopher Tolkien has stated that he did not believe the books could be properly adapted. But he has also publicly denied that he explicitly disaproves of the films. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/film/1697884.stm There's a pretty united public front of "no comment" regarding the films by the family. That makes sense since the films are the work of Peter Jackson and his crew, not J.R.R. Tolkien. Privately they may or may not like them but I doubt we'll hear about it for years to come. They can't be too upset about it though. The Tolkien Estate gets a piece of the merchandising sales. -- Colin Chisholm ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:41:16 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93444 On 25 Aug 2002 20:42:49 GMT, Colin Chisholm wrote: > >There's a pretty united public front of "no comment" regarding the films by >the family. That makes sense since the films are the work of Peter Jackson >and his crew, not J.R.R. Tolkien. Privately they may or may not like them >but I doubt we'll hear about it for years to come. > >They can't be too upset about it though. The Tolkien Estate gets a piece >of the merchandising sales. Money isn't everything, especially when the memory and works of one's scared father are at stake. the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- It's like pushing a car uphill with a rope. ###### Message-ID: <3D695347.C91CF350@bellsouth.net> From: Wild Monkshood Organization: Wild Monkshood (Aconitum uncinatum) -a Poisonous Wildflower X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:46:33 EDT Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:59:35 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!fs01-sjc1.usenetserver.com!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93357 the softrat wrote: > On 25 Aug 2002 20:42:49 GMT, Colin Chisholm > wrote: > > > >There's a pretty united public front of "no comment" regarding the films by > >the family. That makes sense since the films are the work of Peter Jackson > >and his crew, not J.R.R. Tolkien. Privately they may or may not like them > >but I doubt we'll hear about it for years to come. > > > >They can't be too upset about it though. The Tolkien Estate gets a piece > >of the merchandising sales. > > Money isn't everything, especially when the memory and works of one's > scared father are at stake. Tell that to Brian Herbert and his partner in crime, or grime, Kevin J. Anderson as they churn out cheap juvenile action novels as prequels to Frank Herbert's Masterpiece of Science Fiction, The Dune Chronicles. Wild Monkshood > > > the softrat "He who rubs owls" > the Zulu Princess > mailto:softrat@pobox.com > -- > It's like pushing a car uphill with a rope. ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (cr) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 25 Aug 2002 16:10:04 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 4 Message-ID: <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.23.58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030317004 13942 127.0.0.1 (25 Aug 2002 23:10:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Aug 2002 23:10:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93409 If Christopher ever sees the movie, he should be strongly cautioned to take a barf bag with him. -cr ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family From: "G. D. Winn" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-GC-Trace: gv1-TQJiIiYH9SQVdy78E9f5n9oUEOmdGZHCNmg7Q== NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:18:28 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing Lines: 28 X-Trace: sv3-4EBz3+FCq0NP+2fESbEAHltUfErd8CBLWJgIbx0rExZ3bcl4IJG4bDO5op77Ue/9wvBwdb8PHbX37b6!QQEOxMmDZQf3LwngT26n33pP87q/pydZYsC7APM2ca3SziMRB805UVBSorg4jRCNvjc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 01:18:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93364 On 8/24/02 4:18 PM, in article umfq81pd10v467@corp.supernews.com, "Halo" wrote: > What did the Tolkien family think of the LOTR movies? > > > I think a better question is what would Tolkien himself have thought of the movies? I think, like most of us, he'd have mixed feelings about them. I imagine some scenes would bring smiles to his kindly old face while others would make him say, "Bah!" At the very least, I think he'd be glad to hear people speaking Elvish on the big screen. Of course, if Tolkien were alive, Peter Jackson would have a terrible time persuading him that the movies could and should be made in the first place. I imagine they'd work out a deal like WB did with JK Rowling, where Tolkien would be allowed to give his list of demands and then otherwise stay far removed from the proceedings. His main concern would be that he and his family be left in peace by fans and the media. -- Geoffrey D. Winn MoonieCode(1.12.05) SM:6m+ F:sMoCh:vFiTo:aNa:pClR2 X:*****:as174|dClR[S]:mr52 O:d-[-]:s?:a-:h++ P:a21:s56:w:f-:eBrg:hBr:t-:cJe:*Vr:y:r|+ "It's too bad she won't live. But then again, who does?" --Gaff ###### From: Colin Chisholm Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 26 Aug 2002 02:08:51 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ2h1LpDaLKmTnpb1HEYxQgNijScvHflITiYHJ7gyyTulTJjWNaFet0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2002 02:08:51 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!jpix!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93391 the softrat wrote in news:3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com: > Money isn't everything, especially when the memory and works of one's > scared father are at stake. My point was that if the Estate were 100% totally, completely against the films being made I doubt that they would cut themselves a piece of the substantial financial pie. I'm not saying that they necessarily approve of Jackson's adaptation. But obviously money was involved if the Estate decided to earn a piece of the merchandising money. That's probably the extent of their participation. -- Colin Chisholm ###### From: "Halo" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:37:44 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93379 "G. D. Winn" wrote in message news:B98EFA1B.BF64%gdwinn@comcast.net... > > I think a better question is what would Tolkien himself have thought of the > movies? I think, like most of us, he'd have mixed feelings about them. I > imagine some scenes would bring smiles to his kindly old face while others > would make him say, "Bah!" At the very least, I think he'd be glad to hear > people speaking Elvish on the big screen. Of course, if Tolkien were alive, > Peter Jackson would have a terrible time persuading him that the movies > could and should be made in the first place. I imagine they'd work out a > deal like WB did with JK Rowling, where Tolkien would be allowed to give his > list of demands and then otherwise stay far removed from the proceedings. > His main concern would be that he and his family be left in peace by fans > and the media. > -- > Geoffrey D. Winn Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:38:35 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93378 "cr" wrote in message news:22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com... > If Christopher ever sees the movie, he should be strongly cautioned > to take a barf bag with him. > > -cr lol it's not that bad and I heard he's seen it ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:55:10 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93337 On 26 Aug 2002 02:08:51 GMT, Colin Chisholm wrote: > >My point was that if the Estate were 100% totally, completely against the >films being made I doubt that they would cut themselves a piece of the >substantial financial pie. Nonsense. The movie was gonna be made whether they liked it or not, so they might as well benefit as they may. You, Sirrah, are no businessman! the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Frogs are my favorite vegetable. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:19:47 -0400 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3D69E4A3.6A6719CB@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYolkKBg7zA3Cl++HetiZv/+8pSRmqRwqLeyQ6/dz16SCMyZ+qU7g6Y X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2002 08:19:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93375 the softrat wrote: > >They can't be too upset about it though. The Tolkien Estate gets a piece > >of the merchandising sales. > > Money isn't everything, especially when the memory and works of one's > scared father are at stake. Still, it must be gratifying to see the book sales zoom. How many authors have six books in the top ten thirty years after their death? -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Colin Chisholm Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 26 Aug 2002 12:22:54 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYtChw9JdrSo9iL3ZEtOuIhWadHk0yPIITHvy2gHohsqba0kYv96Rom X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2002 12:22:54 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93387 the softrat wrote in news:c3kjmu4ulqdf7dodisf6k1i5igrhljdaqd@4ax.com: > Nonsense. The movie was gonna be made whether they liked it or not, so > they might as well benefit as they may. In which case it's not purely "a matter of principle" as some on this group have posted. I don't like the overly dismissive attitude that many on this group take regarding the films in general. -- Colin Chisholm ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Matt Neumann Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hou-xpc02.se.nos.boeing.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <3D6A22C9.E0D34E4E@hotmail.com> Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: none X-Accept-Language: en References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:44:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!xyzzy!nntp Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93351 the softrat wrote: > > Money isn't everything, especially when the memory and works of one's > scared father are at stake. "Balrogs threaten father! 'I was scared', father reports." -- -Matt (mattneu@hotmail.com) Angband in action! Constant escalation to new depths to find angrier, meaner letters and more punctuation! ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:05:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!news.infoave.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93389 In article , Colin Chisholm wrote: > the softrat wrote in > news:c3kjmu4ulqdf7dodisf6k1i5igrhljdaqd@4ax.com: > >> Nonsense. The movie was gonna be made whether they liked it or not, so >> they might as well benefit as they may. > > In which case it's not purely "a matter of principle" as some on this group > have posted. I don't like the overly dismissive attitude that many on this > group take regarding the films in general. I'm not exactly sure how the Tolkien Estate would go about *not* making money off of the movies. I guess you could always donate the proceeds, but other than that, I don't think there is a way to avoid it. -- AC ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 26 Aug 2002 09:41:57 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 51 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0208260841.5c3c3ee2@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030380117 10502 127.0.0.1 (26 Aug 2002 16:41:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2002 16:41:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93439 "Halo" wrote in message news:... > "G. D. Winn" wrote in message > news:B98EFA1B.BF64%gdwinn@comcast.net... > > > > I think a better question is what would Tolkien himself have thought of > the > > movies? I think, like most of us, he'd have mixed feelings about them. I > > imagine some scenes would bring smiles to his kindly old face while others > > would make him say, "Bah!" At the very least, I think he'd be glad to > hear > > people speaking Elvish on the big screen. Of course, if Tolkien were > alive, > > Peter Jackson would have a terrible time persuading him that the movies > > could and should be made in the first place. I imagine they'd work out a > > deal like WB did with JK Rowling, where Tolkien would be allowed to give > his > > list of demands and then otherwise stay far removed from the proceedings. > > His main concern would be that he and his family be left in peace by fans > > and the media. > > -- > > Geoffrey D. Winn > Yeah it's a shame. I always wondered what Tolkien himself would have > though about the film, and how'd he think of the acting, mise-en-scene and > the translation from book to film. > > Though if JRR Tolkien was alive and was going to see the film, and I was PJ > I'd reshoot things to be true to the book as I possibly as I could (er and > in doing so > rake up a massive bill which we couldn't afford, and a really long movie). > And release 2 versions, Theatrical (which would be essentially the Extended > DVD) > and "Full Original" which be Split 'em into 6 DVDs (each DVD for each book), > give that to him, and leg it hoping for the best... 'course, that's not > really practical innit... I like the film Fellowship and think TT will be better. However, there are chages that have no reason I can see and I would not make. But I am more of the thought that JRRT would have hated the film and not be willing to even see it. He was very fixed in his ways and his opinion of film was not that high. Jackson did much better than anyone could have expected, but I would bet that only one minor point would have been enough to make it bad for Tolkien. Just one. He was like that, I am afraid. Or as I see in reading his letters and biography. Just my thoughts. Gary ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 26 Aug 2002 09:44:52 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 7 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0208260844.4c2a8397@posting.google.com> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030380293 10706 127.0.0.1 (26 Aug 2002 16:44:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2002 16:44:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93431 oscwr@netscape.net (cr) wrote in message news:<22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com>... > If Christopher ever sees the movie, he should be strongly cautioned > to take a barf bag with him. > > -cr Cute, but are you serious. The film is a major success. ###### From: "Vinod Chhotu Patel" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:57:35 +0100 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-3244.monkey.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1030381106 30521 217.135.220.172 (26 Aug 2002 16:58:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2002 16:58:26 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93376 I can remember seeing Tolkien's grandson (& great-grandson) on TV attending the premiere. it was on the news I think, I can't remember now, but it did show him saying he liked the film. I think it was Christipher's Tolkien's son & I think he said he hadn't spoken to his father for awhile. There was also a quote somewhere from Ian McKellan, saying he had met Tolkien's young great-grandson (who'd enjoyed the film) as well... so, I think some of the younger generation of the family seem OK with the film, it's just the older members, but maybe I'm just making assumations here... -- "Halo" wrote in message news:umfq81pd10v467@corp.supernews.com... > What did the Tolkien family think of the LOTR movies? ###### From: ddamxxam@yahoo.com (Maxx) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 26 Aug 2002 10:16:34 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.142.22.236 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030382194 12798 127.0.0.1 (26 Aug 2002 17:16:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2002 17:16:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93412 > > Money isn't everything, especially when the memory and works of one's > > scared father are at stake. > > My point was that if the Estate were 100% totally, completely against the > films being made I doubt that they would cut themselves a piece of the > substantial financial pie. I'm not saying that they necessarily approve of > Jackson's adaptation. But obviously money was involved if the Estate > decided to earn a piece of the merchandising money. That's probably the > extent of their participation. For some reason, I was under the impression that the estate disposed of the movie rights in the 70's thinking that a movie w/couldn't be made. Then they learned, much to their chagrin, that that was not true when Bakshi adapted The Lord of the Rings (and Rankin Bass cartooned the Hobbit). Which was, I thought, where New Line got the rights themselves. And taking what I seem to recall even further, I thought the Jackson talked them into making the movie just before *their* rights were due to expire. Maybe there is a movie rights authority here who could regale us with the real story? ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <2iwa9.1795$LL4.15082700@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:35:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.195.55.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1030394110 80.195.55.99 (Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:35:10 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:35:10 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93479 "Maxx" wrote in message news:c7450a6b.0208260916.d375a91@posting.google.com... > > > Money isn't everything, especially when the memory and works of one's > > > scared father are at stake. > > > > My point was that if the Estate were 100% totally, completely against the > > films being made I doubt that they would cut themselves a piece of the > > substantial financial pie. I'm not saying that they necessarily approve of > > Jackson's adaptation. But obviously money was involved if the Estate > > decided to earn a piece of the merchandising money. That's probably the > > extent of their participation. > > For some reason, I was under the impression that the estate disposed > of the movie rights in the 70's thinking that a movie w/couldn't be > made. Then they learned, much to their chagrin, that that was not true > when Bakshi adapted The Lord of the Rings (and Rankin Bass cartooned > the Hobbit). Which was, I thought, where New Line got the rights > themselves. And taking what I seem to recall even further, I thought > the Jackson talked them into making the movie just before *their* > rights were due to expire. Maybe there is a movie rights authority > here who could regale us with the real story? I understand from reading interviews with PJ that it was Miramax who actually had bought the movie rights. Jackson entered discussions with them and they wanted (what they always want) - one movie, short. (they've been known to bring their own editors in and slash a movie to shreds to get it under 180 minutes over the objections of a director). Jackson felt it couldn't be done in less than two movies and had produced a script to that end. anyway the Miramax deal fell through, but they introduced Jackson to New Line, who asked for a trilogy, to Jackson's great delight. So thank your lucky stars for New Line instead of Miramax. -- Jette (aka Vinyaduriel) "Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Originator: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Message-ID: Sender: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) X-No-Markup: yes Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:26:13 GMT References: X-No-Archive: no NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!world!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93460 In article , AC wrote: >In article , Colin >Chisholm wrote: >> the softrat wrote in >> news:c3kjmu4ulqdf7dodisf6k1i5igrhljdaqd@4ax.com: >> >>> Nonsense. The movie was gonna be made whether they liked it or not, so >>> they might as well benefit as they may. >> >> In which case it's not purely "a matter of principle" as some on this group >> have posted. I don't like the overly dismissive attitude that many on this >> group take regarding the films in general. > >I'm not exactly sure how the Tolkien Estate would go about *not* making money >off of the movies. I guess you could always donate the proceeds, but other >than that, I don't think there is a way to avoid it. JRR sold the movie rights toward the end of his life, for an amount that at the time would have bought a house on the nice end of middle-class (in England) I am told. Not a bad deal, considering that making a movie wasn't really feasible at the time. I assume that means that the Tolkien estate makes money off of things like book tie-ins to the movie, and action figures, unless those rights were also sold off at some point, but not the movie itself, since that has already been paid for. -- pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "Mundus Vult Decipi" | ("The world wants to be deceived") | --James Branch Cabell ###### Message-ID: <3D6AC4A6.C46FA852@delanet.com> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:15:34 -0400 From: Jim Gregors X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <38aeacaa.0208260844.4c2a8397@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: newsfeeds2 Lines: 9 X-Authenticated-User: hkpan013 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeeds.com/abuseform.htm X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news-out.newsfeeds.com!l2!corp-news.newsgroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93489 > > If Christopher ever sees the movie, he should be strongly cautioned > > to take a barf bag with him. > > > > -cr > > Cute, but are you serious. The film is a major success. So were Titanic, Indepedence Day, and The Phantom Menance; but they still sucked. ###### From: "Halo" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:35:15 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93524 "G. D. Winn" wrote in message news:B98EFA1B.BF64%gdwinn@comcast.net... > > I think a better question is what would Tolkien himself have thought of the > movies? I think, like most of us, he'd have mixed feelings about them. I > imagine some scenes would bring smiles to his kindly old face while others > would make him say, "Bah!" At the very least, I think he'd be glad to hear > people speaking Elvish on the big screen. Of course, if Tolkien were alive, > Peter Jackson would have a terrible time persuading him that the movies > could and should be made in the first place. I imagine they'd work out a > deal like WB did with JK Rowling, where Tolkien would be allowed to give his > list of demands and then otherwise stay far removed from the proceedings. > His main concern would be that he and his family be left in peace by fans > and the media. > -- > Geoffrey D. Winn Yeah it's a shame. I always wondered what Tolkien himself would have though about the film, and how'd he think of the acting, mise-en-scene and the translation from book to film. Though if JRR Tolkien was alive and was going to see the film, and I was PJ I'd reshoot things to be true to the book as I possibly as I could (er and in doing so rake up a massive bill which we couldn't afford, and a really long movie). And release 2 versions, Theatrical (which would be essentially the Extended DVD) and "Full Original" which be Split 'em into 6 DVDs (each DVD for each book), give that to him, and leg it hoping for the best... course, that's not really practical innit... ###### From: Colin Chisholm Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 27 Aug 2002 02:27:43 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <38aeacaa.0208260844.4c2a8397@posting.google.com> <3D6AC4A6.C46FA852@delanet.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZVquqyj1KlETdNV+KIbRpy0lb4ZqO6ElKvsMMrgOuNA4Tmz5XCPA6e X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2002 02:27:43 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93526 Jim Gregors wrote in news:3D6AC4A6.C46FA852 @delanet.com: >> Cute, but are you serious. The film is a major success. > > So were Titanic, Indepedence Day, and The Phantom Menance; but they > still sucked. I don't understand. Are you implying that the FOTR film "sucked" or are you merely posting without thinking in an attempt to attract attention? If you're going to insult the film, at least come out in the open and do so. I sure most of the people who read this group would appreciate debate in place of mere insult, though. -- Colin Chisholm ###### From: Trence Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 04:31:53 +0200 Organization: Planet Internet Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3D6AE499.5060503@planet.nl> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <38aeacaa.0208260844.4c2a8397@posting.google.com> <3D6AC4A6.C46FA852@delanet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip503ca8ef.speed.planet.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: reader13.wxs.nl 1030415523 6303 80.60.168.239 (27 Aug 2002 02:32:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@planet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2002 02:32:03 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-GB; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-gb Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!newsfeed.wxs.nl!news.wxs.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93552 Colin Chisholm wrote: > Jim Gregors wrote in news:3D6AC4A6.C46FA852 > @delanet.com: > > >>>Cute, but are you serious. The film is a major success. >>> >>So were Titanic, Indepedence Day, and The Phantom Menance; but they >>still sucked. >> > > I don't understand. Are you implying that the FOTR film "sucked" or are > you merely posting without thinking in an attempt to attract attention? > > If you're going to insult the film, at least come out in the open and do > so. I sure most of the people who read this group would appreciate debate > in place of mere insult, though. > > -- > Colin Chisholm > > Are you *sure* you want to go there? ###### Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family From: "CarlF.Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Reply-To: Aelfwine@elvish.org Message-ID: <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> Organization: Elvish Linguistic Fellowship MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-GC-Trace: gv1-XEtzqAcdzmMLA6X17QxGmX9vnBD3YjsJg3fCg0= NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:14:32 CDT Lines: 31 X-Trace: sv3-400Ni4i1K+797ccVisST+1qOMsHJrlH2B1b7btxRoA0JIrff3aUkguooPmp/yjWh1EhyUkc1DBft5p2!FZOAmPOyephzakc1tqUDG5VdmLy6j6TVVNnGaVIYc3DNOK1BpGx84ZVdIa1K/tziq36X+XEqm4I= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 03:14:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93516 In article , Colin Chisholm wrote: > My point was that if the Estate were 100% totally, completely against the > films being made I doubt that they would cut themselves a piece of the > substantial financial pie. I'm not saying that they necessarily approve of > Jackson's adaptation. But obviously money was involved if the Estate > decided to earn a piece of the merchandising money. That's probably the > extent of their participation. What is your evidence for your assertion that the Tolkien Estate is making money from film merchandising? Since these merchandising rights derive (or, rather, have been derived, via extension and practice unforeseen when the rights were sold) from the film rights, and since the family makes no money from the film whatsoever, I see no reason to think that the family makes any money from the merchandising. Check your assumptions (preferably, at the door). -- |======================================================================| | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@elvish.org http://www.elvish.org | | | | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. | | Ars longa, vita brevis. | | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. | | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take | | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." | |======================================================================| ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:12:00 -0400 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbYB7p5gwmOzKv1qSEt8M6uUCikC6zsexREqVRhNasq+2VVV7azSMgi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2002 08:58:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93511 "CarlF.Hostetter" wrote: > Since these merchandising rights > derive (or, rather, have been derived, via extension and practice > unforeseen when the rights were sold) from the film rights, and since > the family makes no money from the film whatsoever, I see no reason to > think that the family makes any money from the merchandising. Are you sure about that? I read somewhere that the Estate gets some small percentage of the profits from the film. -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Michael Knepher Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:16:11 -0700 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <2iwa9.1795$LL4.15082700@news-text.cableinet.net> User-Agent: Pan/0.12.1 (The din of other people) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Comment-To: "Jette Goldie" Lines: 56 X-Authenticated-User: 85060897 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeeds.com/abuseform.htm X-Path-Stamp: news.newsfeeds.com Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 90,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news.newsgroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93530 On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:35:10 -0700, Jette Goldie wrote: > > "Maxx" wrote in message > news:c7450a6b.0208260916.d375a91@posting.google.com... >> >> For some reason, I was under the impression that the estate disposed >> of the movie rights in the 70's thinking that a movie w/couldn't be >> made. Then they learned, much to their chagrin, that that was not true >> when Bakshi adapted The Lord of the Rings (and Rankin Bass cartooned >> the Hobbit). Which was, I thought, where New Line got the rights >> themselves. And taking what I seem to recall even further, I thought >> the Jackson talked them into making the movie just before *their* >> rights were due to expire. Maybe there is a movie rights authority >> here who could regale us with the real story? > > I understand from reading interviews with PJ that it > was Miramax who actually had bought > the movie rights. Jackson entered discussions with > them and they wanted (what they always want) - > one movie, short. (they've been known to bring their > own editors in and slash a movie to shreds to get it > under 180 minutes over the objections of a director). > Jackson felt it couldn't be done in less than two > movies and had produced a script to that end. > > anyway the Miramax deal fell through, but they > introduced Jackson to New Line, who asked > for a trilogy, to Jackson's great delight. > > So thank your lucky stars for New Line instead > of Miramax. > Saul Zaentz held the rights and produced the Bakshi version. He is also, I believe, the man behind Tolkien Enterprises, which is responsible for handling/approving licensing deals for all sorts of Tolkien-related stuff that JRRT would have found appalling (can you imagine the devout Catholic approving Middle-earth Tarot card sets?). When Jackson went to Miramax to see about getting the rights, Harvey Weinstein called in a favor from Zaentz (Miramax had provided the funds Zaentz needed to finish and distribute The English Patient). So Zaentz got a chunk of money, a co-executive producer credit and Miramax was about ready to sign a two-picture deal. Disney (Miramax's parent) said they'd only allow Miramax to finance one. Miramax let Jackson shop the project around if he could find a studio to take it *and* pay Miramax a hefty sum for the pre-production work that had been done. New Line was the last studio on the last day before Miramax would have pulled the project and either shelved it or offered it to another director as a one-film deal. -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =----- ###### From: "Apteryx" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:31:13 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.54.229.186 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 1030440966 210.54.229.186 (Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:36:06 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:36:06 NZST Organization: Xtra Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp-relay.ihug.net!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93510 Flame of the West wrote in message news:3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org... > "CarlF.Hostetter" wrote: > > > Since these merchandising rights > > derive (or, rather, have been derived, via extension and practice > > unforeseen when the rights were sold) from the film rights, and since > > the family makes no money from the film whatsoever, I see no reason to > > think that the family makes any money from the merchandising. > > Are you sure about that? I read somewhere that the Estate > gets some small percentage of the profits from the film. > Mu understanding is that they they get a percentage of profits if the film made more than a certain amount (which unless that amount was set so high as to make that right a nullity, or unless New Lines' accountants are really brilliant, it will have done), and also a percentage of merchandising outside of the boz office (Burger King and Argonauth figurines). They ought to be delighted with the film, whether or not they liked the idea it being made, and whether or not they have seen it. -- Apteryx "For the uninitiated, Galadriel is the good sister of the evil but beautiful Queen Beruthiel, who imprisons the Fellowship of the Ring in the forest of Lothlorien." The Times of London ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 27 Aug 2002 03:08:39 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0208270208.62b4a195@posting.google.com> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <38aeacaa.0208260844.4c2a8397@posting.google.com> <3D6AC4A6.C46FA852@delanet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030442919 7397 127.0.0.1 (27 Aug 2002 10:08:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2002 10:08:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93544 Jim Gregors wrote in message news:<3D6AC4A6.C46FA852@delanet.com>... > > > If Christopher ever sees the movie, he should be strongly cautioned > > > to take a barf bag with him. > > > > > > -cr > > > > Cute, but are you serious. The film is a major success. > > So were Titanic, Indepedence Day, and The Phantom Menance; but they > still sucked. Liked all of them - for different reasons. ###### From: Colin Chisholm Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 27 Aug 2002 16:51:39 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ3oRdyiCqAswm7DDGHxqsXo5QieNrmWlRDObjB+qleO2ufSBYcMQ1/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2002 16:51:39 GMT User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93634 "CarlF.Hostetter" wrote in news:260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org: > What is your evidence for your assertion that the Tolkien Estate is > making money from film merchandising? Since these merchandising rights > derive (or, rather, have been derived, via extension and practice > unforeseen when the rights were sold) from the film rights, and since > the family makes no money from the film whatsoever, I see no reason to > think that the family makes any money from the merchandising. > > Check your assumptions (preferably, at the door). I don't recall where I read the information about the Estate getting a piece of the merchandising rights. It was one of the thousands of bits of information I read about the films while they were still in production. The context was that this was a film-specific deal. This has nothing to do with the previous film rights or whatever money the Estate makes authorizing supplemental Tolkien products. This was a deal in which the Estate makes money off of Frodo toys and the like. If anybody can prove or disprove this, I'd like to hear it. If I'm wrong I'll gracefully admit it. -- Colin Chisholm ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 27 Aug 2002 11:32:39 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-588.newsdawg.com X-No-Archive: Yes X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.97 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93582 In article , "Truman says... > >Según informa nuestro corresponsal en Ulan Bator, Andrew Wells ha >declarado que: >> >> They do make money from increased book sales - and with the profit >> share arrangement still in place, this would be substantial. > >According to Forbes magazine > >http://www.forbes.com/2002/08/12/0812deadintro_print.html > >Tolkien is the seventh of the Top-Earning Dead Celebrities, >havieng earned 12 million dollars from June 2001 to June 2002. > >Quoting Forbes: > >"J.R.R. Tolkien, the Oxford don and writer of the fantasy epic >The Lord of the Rings, was rumored to have practically given >away the movie rights to his books for a song. But, in fact, >the Tolkien estate receives a small percent of the film's profits. >That looks like a good deal, especially since The Fellowship of >the Ring, which cost about $100 million to make, has generated more >than $300 million in domestic ticket sales since it was released in >December of 2001. As an added benefit, the movie brought Tolkien's >books back to the bestseller list. The estate gets about half of all >profits on book sales. There is also income from the Fellowship of >the Ring DVD, action figures, tarot decks and paint sets. And the >future is even brighter for Tolkien: The second movie in the trilogy, >The Two Towers, will hit the big screen this Christmas and is rumored >to be even better than the first movie. Not a bad living for a man >who has been dead for nearly 30 years. --Betsy Schiffman" Tarot cards? [*retch*] __________ ###### From: "Jeffrey Boydstun" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.82.128 X-Complaints-To: abuse@starband.net X-Trace: twister2.starband.net 1030483106 148.63.82.128 (Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:18:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:18:04 EDT Organization: Starband Communications Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:18:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.starband.net!twister2.starband.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93656 "Truman Burbank" wrote in message news:akgflt$1iim5i$1@ID-39038.news.dfncis.de... > Según informa nuestro corresponsal en Ulan Bator, Andrew Wells ha > declarado que: > > > > They do make money from increased book sales - and with the profit > > share arrangement still in place, this would be substantial. > > According to Forbes magazine > > http://www.forbes.com/2002/08/12/0812deadintro_print.html > > Tolkien is the seventh of the Top-Earning Dead Celebrities, > havieng earned 12 million dollars from June 2001 to June 2002. > > Quoting Forbes: > > "J.R.R. Tolkien, the Oxford don and writer of the fantasy epic > The Lord of the Rings, was rumored to have practically given > away the movie rights to his books for a song. But, in fact, > the Tolkien estate receives a small percent of the film's profits. > That looks like a good deal, especially since The Fellowship of > the Ring, which cost about $100 million to make, has generated more > than $300 million in domestic ticket sales since it was released in > December of 2001. As an added benefit, the movie brought Tolkien's > books back to the bestseller list. The estate gets about half of all > profits on book sales. There is also income from the Fellowship of > the Ring DVD, action figures, tarot decks and paint sets. And the > future is even brighter for Tolkien: The second movie in the trilogy, > The Two Towers, will hit the big screen this Christmas and is rumored > to be even better than the first movie. Not a bad living for a man > who has been dead for nearly 30 years. --Betsy Schiffman" Tarot cards? *grabs manufacturer by the throat and shakes him* -- It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations. -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit Never laugh at live dragons. -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit May the stars of Varda shine over you, may Manwë blow sweet winds toward you, and may the trees of Yavanna long shelter you. May Lórien and Estë send you dreams that are sweet, and may Mandos long bar you from his Halls (which are the Halls of death) ###### Lines: 28 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: sjim67@aol.com (James Allen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 28 Aug 2002 00:00:46 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Message-ID: <20020827200046.00656.00003520@mb-cf.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93597 >From: AC spam@nospam.com.invalid >In article , Colin Chisholm >wrote: >> the softrat wrote in >> news:c3kjmu4ulqdf7dodisf6k1i5igrhljdaqd@4ax.com: >> >>> Nonsense. The movie was gonna be made whether they liked it or not, so >>> they might as well benefit as they may. >> >> In which case it's not purely "a matter of principle" as some on this group > >> have posted. I don't like the overly dismissive attitude that many on this > >> group take regarding the films in general. > >I'm not exactly sure how the Tolkien Estate would go about *not* making money >off of the movies. I guess you could always donate the proceeds, but other >than that, I don't think there is a way to avoid it. > I don't know why people want to pretend they know exactly what the Tolkein family thinks of the films. They obviously gave permission for them to be made, but didn't want to be personally involved. This is not an unusual arrangement. And to be quite blunt, I'm not all that interested in what the Tolkein family thinks of the films anyway. It's not like we need the family's permission to like the film. ###### Message-ID: <3D6C148F.719E52B1@planet.nl> From: Trence X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <20020827200046.00656.00003520@mb-cf.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:05:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.93.114.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.nl X-Trace: Flipper 1030493136 213.93.114.189 (Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:05:36 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:05:36 MET DST Organization: Chello Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news-x2.support.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!Flipper.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93558 James Allen wrote: > > I don't know why people want to pretend they know exactly what the Tolkein > family thinks of the films. They obviously gave permission for them to be made, > but didn't want to be personally involved. This is not an unusual arrangement. If only for the fact that they would love the project to death, I for one would probably be unable to pick what could be left out and what should be left in. Especially Christopher who spent so much time detailing the remaining works of his father. > And to be quite blunt, I'm not all that interested in what the Tolkein family > thinks of the films anyway. It's not like we need the family's permission to > like the film. I think very few people are interested in the Tolkein family and their views on the movie. Quite a lot of us are interested, however, to know what the Tolkien family thinks of it. :) Terence ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (cr) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 27 Aug 2002 19:03:53 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 59 Message-ID: <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.135.149 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030500233 2089 127.0.0.1 (28 Aug 2002 02:03:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2002 02:03:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93639 "Halo" wrote in message news:... > "cr" wrote in message > news:22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com... > > If Christopher ever sees the movie, he should be strongly cautioned > > to take a barf bag with him. > lol it's not that bad and I heard he's seen it You're the only person that I've heard say that Christopher has seen the movie, so I would like to know more about what you heard. To me it's not barf-bad. I like the music, and a few of the scenes. But I wouldn't dare suggest to Christopher that he see it, or ask him what he thought of it. Not that he wouldn't be courteous, or that he wouldn't suffer fools graciously. But just think for a moment about what he has done. First, he read many of the chapters of LotR as his father wrote them and sent them to him during World War II. Next, he drew the fine map used in all editions (until he drew a better one for Unfinished Tales). Then he achieved the huge and difficult task of putting together a coherent Silmarillion for publication. Even if that was all he had ever done, maybe he would have been the greatest perpetuator of a literary legacy that a father ever had. But that was only the beginning. Next he put together that bursting treasure of a book, known as Unfinished Tales. After that came the two-volume Book of Lost Tales, including an essay on his father's work that expressed regret for some of the decisions that he had made in making the Silmarillion fit for publication. Continuing with ten more volumes of The History of Middle-earth, he gave what may be the most detailed examination of every pen-stroke of a writer that has ever been done. All through the series, that lasted for the better part of two decades, he exhibited an almost obsessive interest in the most detailed minutiae of every scrap of his father's writings related to The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings. And by explicit intention, he presented all of the variant writings that would enable critics to form a judgement of the ultimate value of the published Silmarillion, thus clearing his conscience of the liberties that he took in his original work for its first publication. Ok. Got that? Now this is the man that some people want to ask what he thought of Peter Jackson's treatment of one of his father's two greatest works. Think about the level of devotion that Jackson had for the material, and compare it to Christopher's. Think about the shining perfection of certain chapters of the book, that Jackson didn't hesitate to savagely re-write, such as The Council of Elrond. Think of all the new dialogue that Jackson thought was better than Tolkien's dialogue. Think about the tossing out of Tom Bombadil, and the rewriting of Saruman's powers. Think about all of the changes that were not necessary, and the gratuitous additions of a super-Orc and a cave-troll. Every scene of the movie has some of Tolkien and some of not- Tolkien, and you're asking the man who did all that I listed above, and much more, to seriously look at what Peter Jackson did? If I were in a position to do so, I would warn Christopher Tolkien of Peter Jackson's monumental lack of respect for the book; rather than hope he saw the movie, or ask what he thought of the movie. As I said above, the movie has some good things about it, seen as a movie only; but as a representation of Tolkien, it has no place in Christopher Tolkien's world, in my opinion. -cr ###### Message-ID: <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> From: Trence X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:23:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.93.114.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.nl X-Trace: Flipper 1030501419 213.93.114.189 (Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:23:39 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:23:39 MET DST Organization: Chello Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!surfnet.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!Flipper.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93563 cr wrote: > Lavish (deserved praise) for CT, not so lavish for PJ :) Sorry for snipping the entire post, but I'm not going to go through it paragraph by paragraph and I will assume most people have read it. (If not and for some reason it didn't show up on your server, hie thee hence to : http://groups.google.com and look for cr's latest offering) I fully agree with your depiction of CT. However, I do feel your a tad harsh on PJ. Please remember that he had to cater for a target audience of millions of people who've never read the books. Some parts of the book had to be sacrificed in order to make it accessible while still in a reasonable timespan. 3 hours is a long haul for most movie goers. As I've said before, I'm sure PJ gave the Tolkien fans the best vision possible while still making it viable. To make a movie true to this book is impossible, I wouldn't even want to go see it because I can read much much faster than the actors can deliver their lines and to have to sit through the entire Council of Elrond, or some of the discussions on the history would be tedious to say the least. There are so many asides in the book that would be impossible to include.... (besides the point that my imagination can produce much better effects and moods than any movie) There are many things that could've/should've been improved and some of the things altered here make me wonder about the sequels (swords of Numenor, scouring of the shire for example) however as you realize as well, not everything can be included. IMO, CT, being aware of these constraints (he had to do a substantial amount of work with Silm. to present it in it's current form, so he knows the editing business and how to cater for an audience), would probably not think too badly of the movie. He would also say, I think, "Go read the book, it's much better" Still, as you say, as a movie it's pretty good, I've seen much much much worse adaptations of books. (The Running Man springs to mind) Terence ###### From: "Halo" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 03:32:46 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 46 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93627 "cr" wrote in message news:22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com... > "Halo" wrote in message news:... > You're the only person that I've heard say that Christopher has seen the movie, > so I would like to know more about what you heard. Aah damn, my brother was smoking the shire leaf. I found out it was his son(?) or someone else of the Tolkien family who had seen it. > If I were in a position to do so, I would warn Christopher Tolkien of Peter > Jackson's monumental lack of respect for the book; rather than hope he saw > the movie, or ask what he thought of the movie. > As I said above, the movie has some good things about it, seen as a movie only; > but as a representation of Tolkien, it has no place in Christopher Tolkien's > world, in my opinion. > > -cr Wow, now that you put it like that, yeah you're right. If I was Christopher Tolkien, I'd probably be fuming my ass off and just keep to myself then give out a public outcry on how bad it was. I didn't like any of Peter Jacksons changes either, though I did enjoy the music, and the way Middle-Earth was brung up visually. Ian McKellen was fantastic as Gandalf too and I loved the end scene with Elijah and Sean. I wouldn't dare ask Christopher Tolkien myself though... but I'm dying to know what he thought of it (if he did, and only because I'm really really curious : ) ###### From: ddamxxam@yahoo.com (Maxx) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 28 Aug 2002 11:29:38 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 78 Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.142.22.231 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030559378 29745 127.0.0.1 (28 Aug 2002 18:29:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2002 18:29:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93651 > To me it's not barf-bad. I like the music, and a few of the scenes. But I > wouldn't dare suggest to Christopher that he see it, or ask him what he thought > of it. Not that he wouldn't be courteous, or that he wouldn't suffer fools > graciously. So the recommendation of the movie can only be made by a fool? > But just think for a moment about what he has done. First, he read many > of the chapters of LotR as his father wrote them and sent them to him during > World War II. Next, he drew the fine map used in all editions (until he drew a > better one for Unfinished Tales). Then he achieved the huge and difficult task > of putting together a coherent Silmarillion for publication. Even if that > was all he had ever done, maybe he would have been the greatest perpetuator > of a literary legacy that a father ever had. Coherent? It takes a couple reads to get it all ... > But that was only the beginning. Next > he put together that bursting treasure of a book, known as Unfinished Tales. > After that came the two-volume Book of Lost Tales, including an essay on > his father's work that expressed regret for some of the decisions that he had > made in making the Silmarillion fit for publication. Continuing with ten more > volumes of The History of Middle-earth, he gave what may be the most detailed > examination of every pen-stroke of a writer that has ever been done. One might remark on a peculiar obessesion for his father's work, but then, being both a son and a father, I think there's a lot that CT can be proud of doing. > All through > the series, that lasted for the better part of two decades, he exhibited an > almost obsessive interest in the most detailed minutiae of every scrap of his > father's writings related to The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings. And > by explicit intention, he presented all of the variant writings that would > enable critics to form a judgement of the ultimate value of the published > Silmarillion, thus clearing his conscience of the liberties that he took in > his original work for its first publication. > > Ok. Got that? Now this is the man that some people want to ask what he > thought of Peter Jackson's treatment of one of his father's two greatest works. > Think about the level of devotion that Jackson had for the material, and > compare it to Christopher's. Think about the shining perfection of certain > chapters of the book, that Jackson didn't hesitate to savagely re-write, such > as The Council of Elrond. Think of all the new dialogue that Jackson thought > was better than Tolkien's dialogue. Think about the tossing out of Tom > Bombadil, and the rewriting of Saruman's powers. Think about all of the > changes that were not necessary, and the gratuitous additions of a > super-Orc and > a cave-troll. Every scene of the movie has some of Tolkien and some of not- > Tolkien, and you're asking the man who did all that I listed above, and much > more, to seriously look at what Peter Jackson did? Certainly he doesn't have to take it so seriously -- it's just a visual representation of the books. Certainly it isn't meant to REPLACE the experience of reading the books. What about Alan Lee's work? Similarly 'wrong' to have even been done? Are all derivative works of art to be similarly disparaged? (Be careful, some assert that LotR is derivative). The work is largely a result of the process of inspiration and accretion. Students (should) study and appreciate the classics, not be locked in a room, masturbating until they come up with something completely new. > If I were in a position to do so, I would warn Christopher Tolkien of Peter > Jackson's monumental lack of respect for the book; rather than hope he saw > the movie, or ask what he thought of the movie. > As I said above, the movie has some good things about it, seen as a movie only; > but as a representation of Tolkien, it has no place in Christopher Tolkien's > world, in my opinion. I hope (although I don't know that it's true) that CT (or, speculatively, JRRT) wouldn't take (them)himself so seriously that (they)he couldn't even be asked about a movie based on the material that (they)he chose as his life's work. I think it's OK to imagine that they would smile at some of the accomplishments and point out some of the shortcomings. It might also suprise you how many shortcomings PJ might be able to list for you, the result of limited resources of time and money. If I am wrong, so be it, but I just don't think everyone in the world is a purist twat. ###### From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:10:54 -0400 Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (skates.gsfc.nasa.gov) Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: carlfhostetter.gsfc.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: skates.gsfc.nasa.gov 1030562446 29894 128.183.221.44 (28 Aug 2002 19:20:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.gsfc.nasa.gov NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2002 19:20:46 GMT User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!skates!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93600 On 8/27/02 1:12 AM, in article 3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org, "Flame of the West" wrote: > "CarlF.Hostetter" wrote: > >> Since these merchandising rights >> derive (or, rather, have been derived, via extension and practice >> unforeseen when the rights were sold) from the film rights, and since >> the family makes no money from the film whatsoever, I see no reason to >> think that the family makes any money from the merchandising. > > Are you sure about that? I read somewhere that the Estate > gets some small percentage of the profits from the film. Even if true, the fact that their father, negotiating film rights in the '60s, had the wisdom and foresight to include a clause securing for his Estate a percentage of any profitable film, neither a) implies that the family receive any money from merchandising (the original claim), or b) has any bearing on the motivations of the family or their desires with respect to the film and its existence. Christopher Tolkien has gone on record opposing the film, and both he and other family members have stated that were it in their power to stop it, it would not have been made. (Someone in this thread has asserted that the family gave "permission" for the film to be made; this is completely false, nor in any event was any permission needed or asked: that permission was granted with the sale of the film rights decades ago.) So, quite from implying a motivation of greed, the actions of the family in fact demonstrate that they would be all too happy to forego any additional income (direct or indirect) from the film, if they had any choice in the matter. And yes, Christopher Tolkien _has_ seen the movie, and he hated it. I cannot and will not give any more details (though his criticisms were quite detailed and lengthy); so don't bother asking, I will ignore all such requests. ###### From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:26:49 -0400 Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (skates.gsfc.nasa.gov) Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: carlfhostetter.gsfc.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: skates.gsfc.nasa.gov 1030563400 990 128.183.221.44 (28 Aug 2002 19:36:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.gsfc.nasa.gov NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2002 19:36:40 GMT User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!skates!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93598 On 8/27/02 10:23 PM, in article 3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl, "Trence" wrote: > However, I do feel your a tad harsh on PJ. Please remember that he had > to cater for a target audience of millions of people who've never read > the books. He most certainly did not _have_ to do this. No one held a gun to his head. He could have made other choices, or simply walked away from the project. Do you mean to imply that to Peter Jackson money, or the potential of money, is more important than artistic integrity? I hated the movie, and even I don't think that about the man (some of whose other films I like a great deal, most likely because they are his original ideas, not a Hollywood-ized bastardization of a truly great work of literature). > Some parts of the book had to be sacrificed in order to make > it accessible while still in a reasonable timespan. That is not the issue. One could make a much better and truer film version of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ than did Jackson simply by _cutting out_ a great deal of the pointless, repetitive, fabricated, commercial stuff he crammed into that 3 hours, at the expense of heart and soul of his source. > To make a movie true to this book is impossible, I wouldn't even want to > go see it because I can read much much faster I agree with the first part of what you say, but the implied reason for this impossibility is false. No one has claimed that a film version of a story cannot be abridged and yet still be true to the original (or, at any rate, far truer than Jackson's film is to his original). The issue is not length (again, Jackson's movie is _too long_, because it contains so much pointless, commercial cruft), but integrity: Jackson's film has (for this viewer and reader) virtually _nothing_ of the power and significance, of the heart and soul, of _The Lord of the Rings_. > IMO, CT, being aware of these constraints (he had to do a substantial > amount of work with Silm. to present it in it's current form, Unlike Jackson, Christopher Tolkien certainly didn't "cater" to a commercial audience (_The Silmarillion_ is probably the least-read bestseller of all time); nor did he alter his father's words to make things "accessible"; nor did he pad out the book with pointless, redundant, glitzy crowd-pleasing passages. Instead, he labored to bring the work to completion in a form and manner that was as faithful to his father's work and intentions as possible. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 28 Aug 2002 23:39:02 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 68 Message-ID: <6uu1lemznt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1030570744 1366 10.0.3.2 (28 Aug 2002 21:39:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2002 21:39:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93673 "Carl F. Hostetter" writes: > Christopher Tolkien has gone on record > opposing the film, and both he and other family members have stated that > were it in their power to stop it, it would not have been made. Note: that was already before seeing the film. Not even give PJ a chance (and yes PJ did blow it, at least the second half). > be made; this is completely false, nor in any event was any permission > needed or asked: that permission was granted with the sale of the film > rights decades ago.) Note: Permission given by JRRT himself. He was prepared to give an filmer (any, with explicit exeption of Disney!) a chance. Real artists respect other artists, even if they do not like the resulting work. Typical case of an son not living up to an great father. > So, quite from implying a motivation of greed, the Claims of greed would have to be layed at the door of JRRT, if anywhere. He somewhere (Letters?, my copy has still not arrived, grrr) said that he could chose an film with his participation or the quick money and let others do what they want. He chose the later. > actions of the family in fact demonstrate that they would be all too happy > to forego any additional income (direct or indirect) from the film, if they > had any choice in the matter. Trying to be holier than the pope. Luckily in this case only the pope had the choice. And so we at least have chances to one day get an decent film (not PJs). But to see whether Luthien ever is allowed into an cinema, we will have to wait until quite a few descendants of Tolkien have died. > And yes, Christopher Tolkien _has_ seen the movie, and he hated it. So that puts those two issues to rest, final and with stake driven through them, given that you know him personally. > I cannot > and will not give any more details (though his criticisms were quite > detailed and lengthy); Now that would make an interesting reading. But typical Christopher for keeping it to himself. Awfull thought: If his father had had the same attitude with his childrens stories ... no published The Hobbit, no order for LoTR (nor writing of it), Silm would have stayed a bunch of manuscripts no one knew of. And yes, Christopher would be an unknown scholar somewhere, working to survive, instead of having piles of millions from his fathers work, and being able to chose any work he wants (including an many-year hobby of reading Silm manuscripts). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 28 Aug 2002 23:58:24 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 91 Message-ID: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1030571906 1377 10.0.3.2 (28 Aug 2002 21:58:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2002 21:58:26 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93674 "Carl F. Hostetter" writes: > On 8/27/02 10:23 PM, in article 3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl, "Trence" > wrote: > > > However, I do feel your a tad harsh on PJ. Please remember that he had > > to cater for a target audience of millions of people who've never read > > the books. > > He most certainly did not _have_ to do this. Yes. One can make films that millions like, without bastardising what is a great story that has already got an proven track record of being liked by millions. > I hated the movie, The first half (book 1) was quite good, the second (book 2) sucked. And that despite Moria being prime film material. And written in an superb style that would translate 1:1 (unlike book 1). Looking at the material in books 3 and 4 (particularly 3) I am not going to expect much from the second film. > > Some parts of the book had to be sacrificed in order to make > > it accessible while still in a reasonable timespan. > > That is not the issue. One could make a much better and truer film version > of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ than did Jackson simply by _cutting out_ a > great deal of the pointless, repetitive, fabricated, commercial stuff he Yup. - All the Saruman scenes apart from the meeting with Gandalf (and that could be shortened, and as flashback while at Elronds), that is the Palantir, the building army, the felling trees, the Uruk-Hai hatching. - The over-long cave troll fight scene. - The "spider" orcs and their rediculous "resolving". - The entire long totally fabricated "jumping collapsing bride" scene. (whoever had the idea of inserting an new action scene inbetween two already existing ones seems to not understand that readers/viewers need an pause) That would have given enough time for an decent council at Elrond, and for giving Lorien more than an guest appearance. > crammed into that 3 hours, at the expense of heart and soul of his source. Simply letting the characters show themselves would have sufficed. But nearly all scenes that do this were cut. > > To make a movie true to this book is impossible, > > I agree with the first part of what you say, I disagree. A faithfull (if shortened) film is possible. The medium film can carry LoTR. But not with PJs attitude. Of course Hollywood may make it impossible for someone with an better attitude to ever get financed. But the best to come from PJ is an large financial success, that will make Hollywood be prepared to finance further attempts later. Perhaps one of them will hit the target. > > IMO, CT, being aware of these constraints (he had to do a substantial > > amount of work with Silm. to present it in it's current form, > > Unlike Jackson, Christopher Tolkien certainly didn't "cater" to a commercial > audience (_The Silmarillion_ is probably the least-read bestseller of all > time); least-read? Quite a few people seem to know it (and many got it), even only because "its from the same guy as LoTR". > nor did he alter his father's words to make things "accessible"; nor With exeption of "The Fall of Doriath". -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:20:59 -0400 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3D6DBD4B.BC90C25F@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYCQ7k+6y6S2AFU0ZSNHK8i3zpNy5dFsYKm/FZgXVqTEqYj9g8RkWLs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 2002 14:43:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93727 AC wrote: > I'm not exactly sure how the Tolkien Estate would go about *not* making money > off of the movies. I guess you could always donate the proceeds, but other > than that, I don't think there is a way to avoid it. I wish *I* had New Line Cinema stuffing money into my hands, telling me there's no way I can avoid taking it. Go ahead, twist my arm! -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:23:37 -0400 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3D6DBDE8.172AEE8@nospam.solinas.org> References: <38aeacaa.0208260841.5c3c3ee2@posting.google.com> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZIkjTiGVSM0A/8hWtXX2tkI5bx7k+el0Ko2BjoK1lRw9us0BQBNe5b X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 2002 14:43:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93717 "Gary E. Masters" wrote: > But I am more of the thought that JRRT would have hated the film and > not be willing to even see it. He was very fixed in his ways and his > opinion of film was not that high. Jackson did much better than > anyone could have expected, but I would bet that only one minor point > would have been enough to make it bad for Tolkien. Just one. > > He was like that, I am afraid. Or as I see in reading his letters and > biography. He wasn't around for Bakshi or Rankin-Bass either. But I'll bet none of the movies would have annoyed him as much as a generation of drugged-out hippies misinterpreting his work through their own dope-addled viewpoints. -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:29:10 -0400 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3D6DBF36.658E0296@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <2iwa9.1795$LL4.15082700@news-text.cableinet.net> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaFjuoa7GjO3CrVcj7P8dFVqtFTCK3AjNNBINSoYu9Os1TMojMPtA+0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 2002 14:43:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93720 Boris Badenov wrote: > Well, call me obtuse, but are you saying that these movies came within a whisker > of not being made? [*shiver*] Now, that's scary! I think rather they came within a whisker of being one movie rather than three. And it's interesting to note that we almost had a division of Disney producing that movie, which would certainly have caused the old boy to spin in his Oxford grave. -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:35:03 -0400 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3D6DC096.D46A3EC2@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYA4kBEej2YKIVDleO4mZpHVz2Y06dRZExtWHB+b5mgH5huVOWHTJln X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 2002 14:43:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93723 Boris Badenov wrote: > Tarot cards? [*retch*] They've been around for quite a while, but now they're much more widely available, as you'd expect. You can get them at Borders, along with some weird kind of divination game. As you can see, Tolkien fandom is a large tent! -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (cr) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Aug 2002 04:37:05 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.22.183 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030621025 24477 127.0.0.1 (29 Aug 2002 11:37:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 2002 11:37:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93758 "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote in message news:... > ... > And yes, Christopher Tolkien _has_ seen the movie, and he hated it. I cannot > and will not give any more details (though his criticisms were quite > detailed and lengthy); so don't bother asking, I will ignore all such > requests. > ... Unless you at least tell us how you know, there's no reason to believe that you're telling the truth. I have no doubt that he would hate it, but some doubt that he has seen it, and even more doubt that he would write detailed and lengthy criticisms of it. -cr ###### Message-ID: <3D6E34AE.79D069E1@planet.nl> From: Trence X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <38aeacaa.0208260841.5c3c3ee2@posting.google.com> <3D6DBDE8.172AEE8@nospam.solinas.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:47:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.93.114.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.nl X-Trace: Flipper 1030632425 213.93.114.189 (Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:47:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:47:05 MET DST Organization: Chello Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!Flipper.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93684 Flame of the West wrote: > > "Gary E. Masters" wrote: > > > But I am more of the thought that JRRT would have hated the film and > > not be willing to even see it. He was very fixed in his ways and his > > opinion of film was not that high. Jackson did much better than > > anyone could have expected, but I would bet that only one minor point > > would have been enough to make it bad for Tolkien. Just one. > > > > He was like that, I am afraid. Or as I see in reading his letters and > > biography. > > He wasn't around for Bakshi or Rankin-Bass either. But I'll bet > none of the movies would have annoyed him as much as a > generation of drugged-out hippies misinterpreting his work > through their own dope-addled viewpoints. > Insert Leonard Nimoy singing "Bilbo" here --->trashcompactor<--- Terence ###### From: "Carl F. Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 12:56:40 -0400 Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (skates.gsfc.nasa.gov) Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: carlfhostetter.gsfc.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: skates.gsfc.nasa.gov 1030640790 10452 128.183.221.44 (29 Aug 2002 17:06:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.gsfc.nasa.gov NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 2002 17:06:30 GMT User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!skates!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93706 I don't care whether you believe me or not. That's your choice. On 8/29/02 7:37 AM, in article 22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com, "cr" wrote: > Unless you at least tell us how you know, there's no reason to believe that > you're telling the truth. ###### From: wallenbrock@msn.com (AuntieLib) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Aug 2002 16:31:54 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.57.91.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030663915 4133 127.0.0.1 (29 Aug 2002 23:31:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 2002 23:31:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93777 Carl F. Hostetter wrote: > I agree with the first part of what you say, but the implied reason for this > impossibility is false. No one has claimed that a film version of a story > cannot be abridged and yet still be true to the original (or, at any rate, > far truer than Jackson's film is to his original). The issue is not length > (again, Jackson's movie is _too long_, because it contains so much > pointless, commercial cruft), but integrity: Jackson's film has (for this > viewer and reader) virtually _nothing_ of the power and significance, of the > heart and soul, of _The Lord of the Rings_. This is the crux of your argument. "For this viewer and reader." The only person who could make a filmed version of "The Lord of the Rings" that would coincide with what *you* think is its "power and significance" is YOU. And then, no one would go to see it because what you think is important is not what anyone else might think is important. Film is an art form and, as such, the film stands on its own as a work of art separate from the book it was based upon. Its purpose is to entertain (and make a lot of money) and it does exactly that. Many millions of people (myself included) enjoyed it for what it was, many of whom also loved the book. Obviously, they are able to distinguish the written page and film as separate arts and not waste time comparing the two. Personally, I don't care what Christopher Tolkien (or J.R.R. himself) would think of the movie. They are too close to the work and their opinions of the film made from it are worthless to anyone but themselves. (Just as I don't want my architect actually building my house, so I don't think Tolkien could've done any better at translating his work to film. That is not to say it should never have been done. Just not by him.) It has no bearing on whether the film, on its own, is a lasting work of art, or trash. Only time will tell. elizabeth ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (cr) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Aug 2002 17:40:29 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.23.105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030668029 8043 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2002 00:40:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2002 00:40:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93766 "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote in message news:... > On 8/29/02 7:37 AM, in article > 22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com, "cr" > wrote: > > Unless you at least tell us how you know, there's no reason to believe that > > you're telling the truth. > I don't care whether you believe me or not. That's your choice. I'm new here, so I don't know if you actually know Christopher Tolkien or not. Maybe another poster could tell me what the truth is. The little that I have seen in this thread of how you use your communication with him (if you are on the level) looks like you arrogantly lord it over others, in an effort to appear special and 'in the know'. If this is how you are, you are no credit to Mr. Tolkien, and someone should warn him of how you are using your acquaintance with him. -cr ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:46:26 -0400 Lines: 39 Message-ID: <3D6ECE71.342CB873@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ6oRalDt6ocfiO7Kvk5jbFvkTgGmkuW0/LfMYvAG6Sm8JvODvlxU+A X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2002 01:46:53 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93721 cr wrote: > > "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote: > > > Unless you at least tell us how you know, there's no reason to believe that > > > you're telling the truth. > > I don't care whether you believe me or not. That's your choice. > > I'm new here, so I don't know if you actually know Christopher Tolkien or not. > Maybe another poster could tell me what the truth is. The little that I have > seen in this thread of how you use your communication with him (if you are on > the level) looks like you arrogantly lord it over others, in an effort to > appear special and 'in the know'. If this is how you are, you are no credit > to Mr. Tolkien, and someone should warn him of how you are using your > acquaintance with him. Carl Hostetter is an eminent and well-known Tolkien scholar, specializing in Elvish languages. He publishes the linguistic journal Vinyar Tengwar, which regularly draws upon unpublished Tolkien sources (e.g. from Marquette) in its articles. I am not at all surprised that he knows CJRT personally. Nor it is inappropriate for him or others who know the Tolkiens to pop in from time to time to share with us. He wasn't "lording it over" us so much as addressing an issue that was being speculated on (what CJRT thought of the movie). I for one am grateful that he did so, and I am sure that he is following CJRT's wishes in keeping the specifics of the criticism to himself. Do you prefer he kept out? Then this thread would have been nothing but idle speculation by people who knew nothing about it. For me, the occasional visits by people like Carl, Wayne Hammond, etc. are among the best things that happen in these NGs. -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family From: "CarlF.Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Reply-To: Aelfwine@elvish.org Message-ID: <290820022204036191%Aelfwine@elvish.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> Organization: Elvish Linguistic Fellowship MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-GC-Trace: gv1-3kNcYf5AeXx3UQ+nouwDBdnQcJcWt9fMdYVTUo= NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:04:12 CDT Lines: 25 X-Trace: sv3-TAETBrdykNQRps+8JcS0HOvqqb9MBis9LYL0UqGNVuj3sMsNYZf04uw2+ayXASZqtVeDkwQlrSD6NOy!YQAJotDpnLo2DUmkKhSvjD1Zjah1FTA0KcyvjvnLBjTezKW9VpdE0vdKfjnuXgiMk3L82ywjMQYm!tT2n1qD2S4WP X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 02:04:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93716 In article <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com>, cr wrote: > I'm new here, so I don't know if you actually know Christopher Tolkien or not. > Maybe another poster could tell me what the truth is. The little that I have > seen in this thread of how you use your communication with him (if you are on > the level) looks like you arrogantly lord it over others, in an effort to > appear special and 'in the know'. What is truly arrogant is to immediately question the credibility of another person, in a public forum, without reason or evidence. What is also arrogant is the implicit claim that I owe you further explanation, or that your belief is or should somehow be important to me. -- |======================================================================| | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@elvish.org http://www.elvish.org | | | | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. | | Ars longa, vita brevis. | | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. | | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take | | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." | |======================================================================| ###### Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family From: "CarlF.Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Reply-To: Aelfwine@elvish.org Message-ID: <290820022211262789%Aelfwine@elvish.org> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> Organization: Elvish Linguistic Fellowship MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-GC-Trace: gv1-EtinWFe3D7cNHmGEW4WANlM7+4H4QLClUStPno= NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:11:35 CDT Lines: 41 X-Trace: sv3-mtK/1n421q6Fn//p4CuGkw0i4vJy0SWB4FUeem14y0JWbHv345YZojyEYb+aT/Me+AcLX7YuncUpOP9!KA2YGncx/RgXna39r8QAGc63mZPCUvl030o0/7CEpRRBRXUQ1zib7gbY9EudmVZhC45QuHPbcCKa!dqBuzFJd/c6a X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 02:11:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!news-in-sanjose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93718 In article , AuntieLib wrote: > Personally, I don't care what Christopher Tolkien (or J.R.R. himself) > would think of the movie. That is certainly your prerogative. > They are too close to the work and their > opinions of the film made from it are worthless to anyone but > themselves. The two parts of this statement seem entirely non-sequiturial to me, or at any rate not obviously or certainly true. I could just as easily claim that their opinion, being the result of close familiarity and/or study of the work, is _especially_ valuable, to anyone but those who care little for the book. > It has no bearing on whether the film, > on its own, is a lasting work of art, or trash. I would dispute this claim, at least so far as it pretends to be a universal assessment of the value of learned opinion about artistic value. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and even to your determination to like the movie regardless of what anyone else has to say about it; but that does _not_ ipso facto render those opinions of others worthless, at least not to anyone other than yourself. -- |======================================================================| | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@elvish.org http://www.elvish.org | | | | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. | | Ars longa, vita brevis. | | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. | | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take | | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." | |======================================================================| ###### Message-ID: <3D6ED4ED.6A58B7D3@telus.net> From: Roger Clewley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 02:13:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.232.209.184 X-Trace: news1.telusplanet.net 1030673620 216.232.209.184 (Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:13:40 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:13:40 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!news1.telusplanet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93688 Carl F. Hostetter certainly does know Christopher Tolkien at some level. Mr. Hostetter is the editor and publisher of Vinyar Tengwar, an really quite excellent journal on the linguistics of Tolkien. I highly recommend it for both the linguistic and other materials to be found in it. Unfortunately, Mr. Hostetter seems to share certain attributes of temperament with the late John Stugnell. Mr Strugnell was the editor in charge of publishing the Dead Sea Scrolls. Strugnell kept these precious relics of Hebrew literature restricted to just a small group of friendly scholars for some thirty odd years, would bait his critics, and would use his unique access to the Scrolls to dismiss and deride other scholars in the field when they published works without the help of these restricted materials. Mr. Hostetter has had access to certain unpublished works of Tolkien through the Tolkien Estate. You will find distinct echoes of the controversies that beset the publication of the Dead Sea Scrolls if you look at the archives of the Yahoo Elvish Linguistic group. There have had tremendous flame wars on that group between Mr Hostetter and other would be Tolkien linguists. If you find the tone of his comments offensive, then you will find reading those archives that you are not the first. But to the main point, it would seem quite likely his comment on Christopher Tolkien's detailed views on the movie is completely accurate due to his connections if not expressed with much in the way of discretion. cr wrote: > "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote in message news:... > > On 8/29/02 7:37 AM, in article > > 22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com, "cr" > > wrote: > > > Unless you at least tell us how you know, there's no reason to believe that > > > you're telling the truth. > > I don't care whether you believe me or not. That's your choice. > > I'm new here, so I don't know if you actually know Christopher Tolkien or not. > Maybe another poster could tell me what the truth is. The little that I have > seen in this thread of how you use your communication with him (if you are on > the level) looks like you arrogantly lord it over others, in an effort to > appear special and 'in the know'. If this is how you are, you are no credit > to Mr. Tolkien, and someone should warn him of how you are using your > acquaintance with him. > > -cr ###### From: "Halo" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 03:27:02 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> <290820022204036191%Aelfwine@elvish.org> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93743 "CarlF.Hostetter" wrote in message news:290820022204036191%Aelfwine@elvish.org... > > What is > also arrogant is the implicit claim that I owe you further explanation, > or that your belief is or should somehow be important to me. > > -- ... Now your voice is a bitter snake, calm down Saruman, man : ) Spread the love, and peace! Woo! Woo! ###### Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family From: "CarlF.Hostetter" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Reply-To: Aelfwine@elvish.org Message-ID: <290820022244105900%Aelfwine@elvish.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> <3D6ED4ED.6A58B7D3@telus.net> Organization: Elvish Linguistic Fellowship MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-GC-Trace: gv1-A5+m1WmEnvLj5N/3PsvbuYOqxjcxfBrHD0iruM= NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:44:20 CDT Lines: 64 X-Trace: sv3-iLGn175RcU6dOsvMXpgZvvrtS+jngxPTkn+x83IcoGVtJN2m+f3ap2AMVXpZbBLIah9tyBWDiP/3/FV!99hBTAiEtgMsVSuqxp1jy/GTygcghGMQuiANXu7CFwe2sQ3V0w9z/DDAy3O15iJQCWswqv5zj92X!arB8yxClusju X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 02:44:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93715 In article <3D6ED4ED.6A58B7D3@telus.net>, Roger Clewley wrote: > Mr. Hostetter seems to share certain attributes of temperament with the late > John Stugnell. Nonsense. > Mr Strugnell was the editor in charge of publishing the Dead Sea Scrolls. I am not the editor in charge of publishing Tolkien's linguistic papers. I do not have the final authority to choose or to approve what is or is not published, or when, or where. I contribute my work to the common effort of a small group selected by Christopher Tolkien, with whom all authority ultimately rests. > Strugnell kept these precious relics of Hebrew literature restricted to just a > small group of friendly scholars for some thirty odd years, My work on Tolkien's papers is available to everyone. The papers themselves are not for me to restrict, or to open. They belong to the Tolkien Estate, and access to them is made available only at their wish and direction. > would bait his critics, I have had very, very little criticism of my work, and so no critics to bait. > and would use his unique access to the Scrolls to dismiss and deride other > scholars in the field when they published works without the help of these > restricted materials. I have never "derided" anyone for such a thing. If I criticize the conclusions of another, it is solely on the basis of published evidence. > Mr. Hostetter has had access to certain unpublished works of Tolkien through > the Tolkien Estate. This much is true. > it would seem quite likely his comment on Christopher Tolkien's detailed views > on the movie is completely accurate due to his connections if not expressed with > much in the way of discretion. To be any more discreet (I said only that Christopher had seen the movie, and hated it), I would have to have remained silent. I can see from the entirely uncalled-for reaction of certain members of this group that I ought to have done, and shall have to do in the future. Thank you for your instructive comments. -- |======================================================================| | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@elvish.org http://www.elvish.org | | | | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. | | Ars longa, vita brevis. | | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. | | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take | | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." | |======================================================================| ###### Message-ID: <3D6EF10F.C04F92F0@telus.net> From: Roger Clewley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> <3D6ED4ED.6A58B7D3@telus.net> <290820022244105900%Aelfwine@elvish.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 55 Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 04:13:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.232.209.184 X-Trace: news1.telusplanet.net 1030680823 216.232.209.184 (Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:13:43 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:13:43 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!news1.telusplanet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93687 Mr. Hostetter, I said that I believed that you and John Strugnell certain attributes of temperament. Having seen examples of how both you express yourself in print, I stand by that statement. I did not say you shared the biography or more specifically the same actions in life that make up a biography. I was being pithy in trying to explain who John Strugnell was to an audience who probably had no idea who he was. So if anyone thought I said that Carl Hostetter and John Strugnell were identical in nature and in action, then I truly must apologize. Principally why I brought up Strugnell, was the amazing similarity between was has been said (and in such nasty terms) on the Elvish Linguistic group about unpublished Tolkien writings and what was said in many forums about the Dead Sea Scrolls. There is truly an amazing corespondence between the two. You say there has been little criticism of your "work", and that is strictly true. Strugnell was perhaps the foremost scholar of his generation and few could, with merit, criticize his publications. This did not stop many from criticizing him directly. If some the barbed comments thrown at your direction on ElfLing are not criticism, then you have both a thicker skin than me and are a better man. You state that to be more discreet, you would have remain silent. While I have been an editor in but a very minor way over the years, I would not accept your contention if it had been presented to me by a writer I had edited. You wrote (and what I believe started this): "And yes, Christopher Tolkien _has_ seen the movie, and he hated it. I cannot and will not give any more details (though his criticisms were quite detailed and lengthy); so don't bother asking, I will ignore all such requests." Now I am getting old, so perhaps have an archaic turn of phrase, could you not have said something along the lines of this: .I reason to believe that Christopher Tolkien has seen the movie and hated it (for his criticisms were quite detailed and lengthy). For reasons of confidentiality, I can not explain how I have come to know this information. I have shared with this group as much as I can. Please do not ask me to explain further, as I will be unable to respond to any requests.' I would call that being more discreet, yet conveying exactly the same information, but you are free to disagree. You suggest that you should remain silent in the future. Merely as a suggestion, I would ask you to reconsider. I am but a rare visitor here, and there are clearly many like writer who goes by the tag "Flame of the West" who greatly respect what you have to say. But of course the choice is yours. "CarlF.Hostetter" wrote: > In article <3D6ED4ED.6A58B7D3@telus.net>, Roger Clewley > wrote: > > Nonsense. > Much snipping ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (cr) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 30 Aug 2002 03:34:46 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: <22680de.0208300234.1810d82e@posting.google.com> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> <290820022204036191%Aelfwine@elvish.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.22.161 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030703687 8684 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2002 10:34:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2002 10:34:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93753 "CarlF.Hostetter" wrote in message news:<290820022204036191%Aelfwine@elvish.org>... > What is truly arrogant is to immediately question the credibility of > another person, in a public forum, without reason or evidence. What is > also arrogant is the implicit claim that I owe you further explanation, > or that your belief is or should somehow be important to me. What you said was this: "And yes, Christopher Tolkien _has_ seen the movie, and he hated it. I cannot and will not give any more details (though his criticisms were quite detailed and lengthy); so don't bother asking, I will ignore all such requests." The first sentence was fine. The remainder was saying, in effect, "I know something, but I won't tell you." That was very childish. In a later post, you said that all you had said was the first part. And your other comments have continued your 'superior' attitude. I will leave your posts alone in the future, so you can continue your haughty relationship with the other people here, unchallenged. -cr ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 30 Aug 2002 03:48:43 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 83 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0208300248.68f42810@posting.google.com> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> <3D6ED4ED.6A58B7D3@telus.net> <290820022244105900%Aelfwine@elvish.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030704523 9451 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2002 10:48:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2002 10:48:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93770 "CarlF.Hostetter" wrote in message news:<290820022244105900%Aelfwine@elvish.org>... > In article <3D6ED4ED.6A58B7D3@telus.net>, Roger Clewley > wrote: > > > Mr. Hostetter seems to share certain attributes of temperament with the late > > John Stugnell. > > Nonsense. > > > Mr Strugnell was the editor in charge of publishing the Dead Sea Scrolls. > > I am not the editor in charge of publishing Tolkien's linguistic > papers. I do not have the final authority to choose or to approve what > is or is not published, or when, or where. I contribute my work to the > common effort of a small group selected by Christopher Tolkien, with > whom all authority ultimately rests. > > > Strugnell kept these precious relics of Hebrew literature restricted to just a > > small group of friendly scholars for some thirty odd years, > > My work on Tolkien's papers is available to everyone. The papers > themselves are not for me to restrict, or to open. They belong to the > Tolkien Estate, and access to them is made available only at their wish > and direction. > > > would bait his critics, > > I have had very, very little criticism of my work, and so no critics to > bait. > > > and would use his unique access to the Scrolls to dismiss and deride other > > scholars in the field when they published works without the help of these > > restricted materials. > > I have never "derided" anyone for such a thing. If I criticize the > conclusions of another, it is solely on the basis of published > evidence. > > > Mr. Hostetter has had access to certain unpublished works of Tolkien through > > the Tolkien Estate. > > This much is true. > > > it would seem quite likely his comment on Christopher Tolkien's detailed views > > on the movie is completely accurate due to his connections if not expressed with > > much in the way of discretion. > > To be any more discreet (I said only that Christopher had seen the > movie, and hated it), I would have to have remained silent. I can see > from the entirely uncalled-for reaction of certain members of this > group that I ought to have done, and shall have to do in the future. > > Thank you for your instructive comments. > > -- > > |======================================================================| > | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@elvish.org http://www.elvish.org | > | | > | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. | > | Ars longa, vita brevis. | > | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. | > | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take | > | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." | > |======================================================================| Should have remained silent? Perhaps. It is understandable that Christopher hated the film. Much of what he contributed was left out. But the heart of the matter is the idea that if one person does not like something that nobody should have access to it. That is censorship in its pure form. Some may well say "I don't like the film and it should never have been made." Fine. But why control others? For those who like it, they should be able to enjoy it. Few are forced to see the film. Once something gets out in the public, others should be able to share the vision. That is where I part from copyright. This is a knock about forum. Don't post if you can or will not take the knocks that may come. ###### From: address@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 30 Aug 2002 13:55:38 GMT Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Western Ontario Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hyphocus.csd.uwo.ca X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 1030715738 28893 129.100.11.51 (30 Aug 2002 13:55:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2002 13:55:38 GMT Originator: andrews@csd.uwo.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!csd.uwo.ca!andrews Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93700 In article <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com>, cr wrote: >.... But I >wouldn't dare suggest to Christopher that he see it, or ask him what he thought >of it. Not that he wouldn't be courteous, or that he wouldn't suffer fools >graciously. >But just think for a moment about what he has done.... [good stuff snipped] Just adding my voice of assent to your post. Peter Jackson has now devoted a huge part of his life and career to the works of JRRT, and I commend him and respect him for that. However, that still doesn't even come close to the level of involvement and devotion that CJRT has had. If CJRT doesn't want to see the movies, so be it. --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### From: ddamxxam@yahoo.com (Maxx) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 30 Aug 2002 10:23:04 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> <290820022204036191%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <22680de.0208300234.1810d82e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.142.21.245 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030728185 1955 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2002 17:23:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2002 17:23:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93768 I have to eat some* crow here. I hate that, but I'll do it. Earlier, I posted, > For some reason, I was under the impression that the estate disposed > of the movie rights in the 70's thinking that a movie w/couldn't be > made. Then they learned, much to their chagrin, that that was not true > when Bakshi adapted The Lord of the Rings (and Rankin Bass cartooned > the Hobbit). Which was, I thought, where New Line got the rights > themselves. And taking what I seem to recall even further, I thought > the Jackson talked them into making the movie just before *their* > rights were due to expire. Maybe there is a movie rights authority > here who could regale us with the real story? Then, when someone *who might know the answer to my question* responded, I said: > Garn! > It would make as much sense to say: > "Christopher Tolkien _has_ seen the movie, and he loved it. I cannot > and will not give any more details (though his plaudits were quite > detailed and lengthy); so don't bother asking, I will ignore all such > requests." I did not make the connection, I just responded. It's one of the world's oldest newsgroup gags to falsify identity and pretend to have personal acquaintances with *important* people. So, for the remark and the tone, I *am* sorry and I apologize to Mr. Hostetter. But I also find myself in strong agreement with the following comment and others like it. > The first sentence was fine. The remainder was saying, in effect, "I know > something, but I won't tell you." That was very childish. In a later post, > you said that all you had said was the first part. And your other comments > have continued your 'superior' attitude. > I will leave your posts alone in the future, so you can continue your haughty > relationship with the other people here, unchallenged. > -cr Obviously, I would love to learn more (a great deal more, in fact) from Mr. Hostetter's participation in this group. And I'll be first to treat him with all the respect due to his scholarship ... provided he treats others with the respect due bright, interested students. Probably not fair to Mr. Hostetter, but in my world, just because you're at the top of the heap, doesn't mean you won't feel the weight of the pile. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 30 Aug 2002 22:07:32 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 83 Message-ID: <6uznv4az5n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> <3D6ED4ED.6A58B7D3@telus.net> <290820022244105900%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <38aeacaa.0208300248.68f42810@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1030738056 367 10.0.3.2 (30 Aug 2002 20:07:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2002 20:07:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93788 gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) writes: > "CarlF.Hostetter" wrote in message news:<290820022244105 900%Aelfwine@elvish.org>... > > > > To be any more discreet (I said only that Christopher had seen the > > movie, and hated it), Which was a good thing. As it lays two issues to rest, which else would fester like B***** W**** on these groups. > > I would have to have remained silent. I can see > > from the entirely uncalled-for reaction of certain members of this > > group that I ought to have done, and shall have to do in the future. Tssss, tssss. > Should have remained silent? Perhaps. Denying information usually has far worse effects then letting it out. So silence is a bad policy, unless very special circumstances (such as tactical information, or protecting witnesses) suggest it. > It is understandable that Christopher hated the film. Yes. > Much of what he > contributed was left out. Huh? I do not understand that one. Contributed to the film? Nothing. Contributed to the book? Can not be identified which bits (if any). But I doubt that JRRT wrote the parts PJ left in and CT the parts that are missing. > But the heart of the matter is the idea > that if one person does not like something that nobody should have > access to it. That is censorship in its pure form. Exactly. > Some may well say > "I don't like the film and it should never have been made." Fine. A honnest view. > But why control others? For those who like it, they should be able to > enjoy it. And be allowed to make the film in the first place. > Once something gets out in the public, others should be able to share > the vision. That is where I part from copyright. Full ageed. Copyright as (preferrably time-limited) monopoly on making copies, to finance the author from sales (and so get more books written), a bonheur. But copyright as shaping the public immagination and then surpressing others use of their imagination working on the ideas is anti-thetical to the very core of culture. Nice to see that there are others who see this difference. > This is a knock about forum. Don't post if you can or will not take > the knocks that may come. Yes. And CFH should know that. He has knocked others at times. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:48:01 -0400 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3D6FDA02.3A4C6A1E@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <290820022211262789%Aelfwine@elvish.org> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYXF7MfrY3RuwwE9BqXpR+lKNzhiAGFg7KcsgNupaWZACjr7Se9P8bc X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2002 03:23:44 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93804 AuntieLib wrote: > I see it this way: say you have a gardener who grows prize-winning > orchids in a hothouse in his backyard. An artist sees one and goes > home to his studio and creates a beautiful blown-glass sculpture which > looks much like that orchid, though stylized. The flower exists in > the gardener's hothouse, the replica is widely-viewed and admired in a > museum in the city. Does one detract from the other? No. Can they > exist independently of each other? Yes. Is the gardener going to > necessarily appreciate this glass forgery of his life's sweat and > toil? Probably not. Will that matter to the millions of patrons > viewing the sculpture in the museum? Not one bit. Is this some kind of ALLEGORY? We don't allow such things in Tolkien NGs. -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:48:49 -0400 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3D6FDA31.F91AB144@nospam.solinas.org> References: <3ljimuk7jv6ehe47uk4a87iv2st3gigmoo@4ax.com> <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <3D6B0A21.5C839240@nospam.solinas.org> <22680de.0208290337.3daa6091@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208291640.5c497cbd@posting.google.com> <3D6ED4ED.6A58B7D3@telus.net> <290820022244105900%Aelfwine@elvish.org> <38aeacaa.0208300248.68f42810@posting.google.com> <6uznv4az5n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: FotW@nospam.solinas.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZzx7HjOxFSfIfNlR1UTCKqr68Hrh8y5WKWB9gUo3jCFMDjMfCVsI4r X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2002 03:23:47 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93803 Neil Franklin wrote: > Which was a good thing. As it lays two issues to rest, which else > would fester like B***** W**** on these groups. No such thing. B*****s don't have w***s. -- -- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Andew Rilstone Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 09:07:05 +0100 Organization: A Customer of Demon Internet@THUS plc Lines: 19 Message-ID: <36aHgRApkHc9EwZO@aslan.demon.co.uk> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <290820022211262789%Aelfwine@elvish.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: aslan.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1030825811 11447 158.152.30.126 (31 Aug 2002 20:30:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:30:11 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Turnpike/6.00-S () Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!aslan.demon.co.uk!andrew Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93820 In article , AuntieLib writes >I see it this way: say you have a gardener who grows prize-winning >orchids in a hothouse in his backyard. An artist sees one and goes >home to his studio and creates a beautiful blown-glass sculpture which >looks much like that orchid, though stylized. The flower exists in >the gardener's hothouse, the replica is widely-viewed and admired in a >museum in the city. Does one detract from the other? No. Can they >exist independently of each other? Yes. Is the gardener going to >necessarily appreciate this glass forgery of his life's sweat and >toil? Probably not. Will that matter to the millions of patrons >viewing the sculpture in the museum? Not one bit. I wish I had said that! -- Andrew Rilstone andrew@aslan.demon.co.uk http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/ ************************************************************************ 'Tis the time's plague when madmen lead the blind ************************************************************************ ###### From: urban@panix.com (Michael Urban) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 1 Sep 2002 11:12:27 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <260820022314269433%Aelfwine@elvish.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1030893147 9438 166.84.1.3 (1 Sep 2002 15:12:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 15:12:27 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93856 In article , Truman Burbank wrote: > >Quoting Forbes: > >"J.R.R. Tolkien, the Oxford don and writer of the fantasy epic >The Lord of the Rings, was rumored to have practically given >away the movie rights to his books for a song. But, in fact, >the Tolkien estate receives a small percent of the film's profits. >That looks like a good deal, especially since The Fellowship of >the Ring, which cost about $100 million to make, has generated more >than $300 million in domestic ticket sales since it was released in >December of 2001. Yet it is well known (and for some reason Forbes neglected to mention) that Hollywood studios have imaginative accounting methods by which even large gross revenues can translate to little or no net 'profits'. Celebrity deals involve "percent of gross", not profit. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 09:07:50 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 55 Message-ID: <0037nu02h8d8v0v1kl3ssuj0lfbsam3m6d@4ax.com> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.23.3c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 2 Sep 2002 16:00:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!proxad.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93938 Trence wrote: >However, I do feel your a tad harsh on PJ. Please remember that he had >to cater for a target audience of millions of people who've never read >the books. Ah, that explains the reviews that pan it for not telling a story but simply ending in mid-stream: it was done that way for people who had not read the book and therefore had no idea at all what was happening. >Some parts of the book had to be sacrificed in order to make >it accessible while still in a reasonable timespan. 3 hours is a long >haul for most movie goers. Actually, I think what the film shows is that the book probably could be done very faithfully and completely -- six 3-hour films would probably do it. Not that absolutely everything would be the same, but a much more faithful film could be done. Indeed, in a sense, one has been: Bakshi's version is much more faithful to the book. It arguably contains /more/ of Books I and II (traditionally called /The Fellowship of the Ring/) than PJ does. It certainly contains less non-JRRT material. It just isn't that good a movie and it still omits a lot of stuff -- including the entire second half of the novel. >As I've said before, I'm sure PJ gave the Tolkien fans the best vision >possible while still making it viable. Not by a long shot. Much as I enjoy the first one and expect to enjoy the others when they come out and then enjoy all three, at least once, in one day, it is not the best vision possible for the fans. >Still, as you say, as a movie it's pretty good, I've seen much much much >worse adaptations of books. And, I should hope, much much better ones. And here is a curiosity I may have mentioned before: there is a novel called /The Satan Bug/ which was made into a movie. At first glance, the book and the film would seem to have nothing in common -- the book is set in Britain, the movie in America. The villain's goal is different. Plot points vary. And so on. And yet ... that movie is a much better adaptation of that book than PJ's movie is of JRRT's book. The difference is, the people making the movie wanted to make a movie of the book, not just a movie showing their version of the story in that book. -- You are not being ignored! With rare exceptions: I download on Saturdays. I upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 09:07:53 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.23.3c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 2 Sep 2002 16:00:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93948 "G. D. Winn" wrote: >On 8/24/02 4:18 PM, in article umfq81pd10v467@corp.supernews.com, "Halo" > wrote: > >> What did the Tolkien family think of the LOTR movies? >> >> >> > >I think a better question is what would Tolkien himself have thought of the >movies? I think, like most of us, he'd have mixed feelings about them. I >imagine some scenes would bring smiles to his kindly old face while others >would make him say, "Bah!" At the very least, I think he'd be glad to hear >people speaking Elvish on the big screen. Of course, if Tolkien were alive, >Peter Jackson would have a terrible time persuading him that the movies >could and should be made in the first place. I imagine they'd work out a >deal like WB did with JK Rowling, where Tolkien would be allowed to give his >list of demands and then otherwise stay far removed from the proceedings. >His main concern would be that he and his family be left in peace by fans >and the media. IIRC, Herbert loved the commercial version of /Dune/. Asimov reportedly loved the screenplay for /I, Robot/ -- even though it included alien races, a concept alien to that series. So JRRT might have enjoyed it. After all, it wasn't done by Disney. -- You are not being ignored! With rare exceptions: I download on Saturdays. I upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:09:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93919 In article , Paul S Person wrote: > > IIRC, Herbert loved the commercial version of /Dune/. Herbert was very involved in the development of the Dune movie. >Asimov > reportedly loved the screenplay for /I, Robot/ -- even though it > included alien races, a concept alien to that series. So JRRT might > have enjoyed it. I have a very vague and unprovable feeling that Tolkien would have despised any LotR movie. -- AC ###### Message-ID: <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> From: pHotEK X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 02:07:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.100.43.244 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1035770867 24.100.43.244 (Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:07:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:07:47 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!proxad.net!63.210.96.66.MISMATCH!chi1.webusenet.com!newsfeeds-atl2!news.webusenet.com!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97348 Neil Franklin wrote: > < snip > > > - All the Saruman scenes apart from the meeting with Gandalf (and that > could be shortened, and as flashback while at Elronds), that is the > Palantir, the building army, the felling trees, the Uruk-Hai hatching. > - The over-long cave troll fight scene. > - The "spider" orcs and their rediculous "resolving". > - The entire long totally fabricated "jumping collapsing bride" scene. > (whoever had the idea of inserting an new action scene inbetween two > already existing ones seems to not understand that readers/viewers > need an pause) gaaah, I had almost succeeded in putting a mental block on that ridiculous Wizard WWF scene - I was embarassed by that! Not for myself but for whichever stupid goon decided to put that into what was supposed to be an uplifting depiction of a truly great story!!! I agree that none of the stupid additions were necessary; lose Bombadil, fine, but the transmogrification of Arwen's role in the story was just wrong... (how much would it have cost to cast a Glorfindel to ride around a bit and hang around in Elrond's house?) Lurtz, ok, whatever, who cares... it's a Hollywood film, after all... I agree the cave troll fight was too long... AND, you mentioned the thing that disappointed me the MOST about the movie - MORIA! The Bridge, in particular! I waited for YEARS to see the approach of the Balrog brought to life in every detail true to every word of the book... and what did they do? They FUCKED IT UP, that's what!!! Not the appearance of the Balrog (good looking demon, though not what I had in mind, really...) but all that bloody collapsing stair crap and and the way the Balrog just pops up like a jack-in-the-box... what a letdown! > < more snip > ###### From: "Darth Quokka" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:31:04 +0800 Organization: WAIA Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ophidian38.upnaway.com X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1035771866 26420 202.71.163.38 (28 Oct 2002 02:24:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 02:24:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in.superfeed.net!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97360 "pHotEK" wrote in message news:3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org... > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > < snip > > > > > - All the Saruman scenes apart from the meeting with Gandalf (and that > > could be shortened, and as flashback while at Elronds), that is the > > Palantir, the building army, the felling trees, the Uruk-Hai hatching. > > - The over-long cave troll fight scene. > > - The "spider" orcs and their rediculous "resolving". > > - The entire long totally fabricated "jumping collapsing bride" scene. > > (whoever had the idea of inserting an new action scene inbetween two > > already existing ones seems to not understand that readers/viewers > > need an pause) > > gaaah, I had almost succeeded in putting a mental block on that ridiculous Wizard > WWF scene - I was embarassed by that! Not for myself but for whichever stupid goon > decided to put that into what was supposed to be an uplifting depiction of a truly > great story!!! > > I agree that none of the stupid additions were necessary; lose Bombadil, fine, but > the transmogrification of Arwen's role in the story was just wrong... (how much > would it have cost to cast a Glorfindel to ride around a bit and hang around in > Elrond's house?) > Lurtz, ok, whatever, who cares... it's a Hollywood film, after all... > I agree the cave troll fight was too long... > > AND, you mentioned the thing that disappointed me the MOST about the movie - > MORIA! The Bridge, in particular! I waited for YEARS to see the approach of the > Balrog brought to life in every detail true to every word of the book... and what > did they do? They FUCKED IT UP, that's what!!! Not the appearance of the Balrog > (good looking demon, though not what I had in mind, really...) but all that bloody > collapsing stair crap and and the way the Balrog just pops up like a > jack-in-the-box... what a letdown! > > > Here, Here!!! I agree whole-heartedly Making the Book "Politically Correct"... Was that really necessary??? And what about, "No one tosses a dwarf!!!" ###### Reply-To: "Noldor" From: "Noldor" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Lines: 58 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 06:25:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.217.50.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1035786324 67.217.50.121 (Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:25:24 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:25:24 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97338 > gaaah, I had almost succeeded in putting a mental block on that ridiculous Wizard > WWF scene - I was embarassed by that! What do you propose a fight between wizards might look like? I don't think you would suggest Gandalf did not put up a fight. I also think it would leave a gaping hole in the movie to not show exactly how Saruman managed to imprison Gandalf. AFAIK there are no references to exactly what happened in print so they had to make something up, what they did is just as good as any. > I agree that none of the stupid additions were necessary; lose Bombadil, fine, but > the transmogrification of Arwen's role in the story was just wrong... (how much > would it have cost to cast a Glorfindel to ride around a bit and hang around in > Elrond's house?) If I could change one thing about the movie it would be the Ford, but it would not have anything to do with Glorfindel. It would take screen time to explain who he is and why he is about and that is just one more character to confuse unitiated moviegoers. Asfaloth is the important character here, one Elf or another riding him doesn't matter to me. I think the scene right at the Ford being true to the book would have been far more powerful and exciting than what they showed in the movie though. Frodo should have been by himself, he should have mouthed off a bit at the Nazgul and when he drew his sword they should have broken it using sorcery - just like the book. That would be much better to me. > Lurtz, ok, whatever, who cares... it's a Hollywood film, after all... > I agree the cave troll fight was too long... I agree. > > AND, you mentioned the thing that disappointed me the MOST about the movie - > MORIA! The Bridge, in particular! I waited for YEARS to see the approach of the > Balrog brought to life in every detail true to every word of the book... and what > did they do? They FUCKED IT UP, that's what!!! Not the appearance of the Balrog > (good looking demon, though not what I had in mind, really...) but all that bloody > collapsing stair crap and and the way the Balrog just pops up like a > jack-in-the-box... what a letdown! I agree about the stairs, that was several minutes that could have been something worthwhile. I liked everything about the Balrog scene except it wasn't obvious enough that Gandalf broke the bridge on purpose. I have talked with numerous non-Tolkien people about this scene and only a few could tell that Gandalf broke the bridge on purpose. ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 28 Oct 2002 07:40:10 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Message-ID: <20021028024010.17806.00001040@mb-ci.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97369 > and only a few >could tell that Gandalf broke the bridge on purpose. > I didn't see the movie. Habilis Malay Mo on Archipelago is and always has been matriarchal, along with Malay Mo on far and distant places in the Pacific such as Hawaii. Everywhere else it seems to be patriarchal. That's a lot of evidence right there. Mark ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Originator: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Message-ID: Sender: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) X-No-Markup: yes Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:57:55 GMT References: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> X-No-Archive: no NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!world!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97317 In article , Noldor wrote: > If I could change one thing about the movie it would be the Ford, but it >would not have anything to do with Glorfindel. It would take screen time to >explain who he is and why he is about and that is just one more character to >confuse unitiated moviegoers. Asfaloth is the important character here, one >Elf or another riding him doesn't matter to me. > I think the scene right at the Ford being true to the book would have >been far more powerful and exciting than what they showed in the movie >though. Frodo should have been by himself, he should have mouthed off a bit >at the Nazgul and when he drew his sword they should have broken it using >sorcery - just like the book. That would be much better to me. AOL! AOL! -- pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "So, what are you gonna do with | that Ring, Brain?" ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:21:20 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97504 Noldor wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > What do you propose a fight between wizards might look like? I don't think we have to guess: we are _shown_. /The Voice of Saruman/ is a fight between Gandalf and Saruman. The first one (which Gandalf just told us about, sketchily, at the Council of Elrond) ended in a draw; this one ends in a clear victory for Gandalf. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 28 Oct 2002 17:55:58 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 16 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97389 Stan Brown wrote: : Noldor wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: :> What do you propose a fight between wizards might look like? : I don't think we have to guess: we are _shown_. /The Voice of : Saruman/ is a fight between Gandalf and Saruman. The first one : (which Gandalf just told us about, sketchily, at the Council of : Elrond) ended in a draw; this one ends in a clear victory for : Gandalf. I do not see this at all. Are you saying Saruman "persuaded" Gandalf into staying by means of his voice? Why could he persuade Gandalf to stay, but not to join with Saruman, or to reveal where the Ring was? Stephen ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 28 Oct 2002 18:12:16 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1035828736 2286442 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97539 On 28 pa? 2002, stephen@nomail.com scribbled loosely: >: I don't think we have to guess: we are _shown_. /The Voice of >: Saruman/ is a fight between Gandalf and Saruman. The first one >: (which Gandalf just told us about, sketchily, at the Council of >: Elrond) ended in a draw; this one ends in a clear victory for >: Gandalf. > > I do not see this at all. Are you saying Saruman "persuaded" > Gandalf into staying by means of his voice? Why could he > persuade Gandalf to stay, but not to join with Saruman, or to > reveal where the Ring was? > Dig one of my posts from couple of weeks ago, I described the situation there, the way I'd like to see it in a movie. Yes, fights between wizards look just like that: they talk for a while and then one of them falls over. No fireballs, no lightnings. -- Pradera --- Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage Tori no mure ga naiteiru Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 28 Oct 2002 23:08:40 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 88 Message-ID: <6u3cqq43o7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1035842920 767 10.0.3.2 (28 Oct 2002 22:08:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Oct 2002 22:08:40 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97596 A months old thread returns from the dead ... "Darth Quokka" writes: > "pHotEK" wrote in message > > I agree that none of the stupid additions were necessary; lose Bombadil, > fine, but > > the transmogrification of Arwen's role in the story was just wrong... (how > much > > would it have cost to cast a Glorfindel to ride around a bit and hang > around in > > Elrond's house?) Funny enough, that one did not disturb me as much as it did many others. Perhaps I do not have such an link to Glorfindel. An Arwen swap-in was acceptable character cut to me before going to the cinema. > > AND, you mentioned the thing that disappointed me the MOST about the > movie - > > MORIA! Yes. Moria was _the_ big faillure for me. Up until the end of book 1 (and the flim break on my first viewing) I came to the conclusion that the story had been cut, but was still good. Then came Book 2 (my favorite of the entire 6 books) and Moria (together with Lorien 2 favorite scenes). And URGH! > The Bridge, in particular! I waited for YEARS to see the approach > of the > > Balrog brought to life in every detail true to every word of the book... Yes! > and what > > did they do? They FUCKED IT UP, that's what!!! Not the appearance of the > Balrog > > (good looking demon, though not what I had in mind, really...) but all The actual Balrog was well done. One if the highlights in the second half. The SFX guys there said "sorry" for the "plastic" cave troll. > that bloody > > collapsing stair crap Yup. Unneccessary. And bad dramaturgy (viewers need rest after troll). That is why the gangway down exists in the book, break between Mazarbul and Bridge. Lowest point of the entire film. > and and the way the Balrog just pops up like a > > jack-in-the-box... what a letdown! Yup. Where was the Orcs going to the side, *fear* in them? Then the "Light from behind" scene (that was in the film, in the top(!) room) would come, then the Balrog. And Legolas "A Balrog!", Gimly "Durins Bane!", Gandalf "So that is what it was, run!". Gandalf as played lacked any urgency in his exclamation. What dramaturgy in the Book, lackluster film ... Chance wasted. > And what about, "No one tosses a dwarf!!!" Retch! Rule #1 of fantasy filming: Let the viewer immerse into the fictional word. DON'T put in real-world jokes that pull the viewer out, smack into real-world, and "Oups where am I? A cinema? How did I get here?" .. "Damn director!" The Hitchcock "Birds" like attack of the Crebain was also this class of mistake. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Oct 2002 02:09:40 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 28 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97672 Stan Brown wrote: : stephen@nomail.com wrote in : rec.arts.books.tolkien: :>Stan Brown wrote: :>: Noldor wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: :>:> What do you propose a fight between wizards might look like? :> :>: I don't think we have to guess: we are _shown_. /The Voice of :>: Saruman/ is a fight between Gandalf and Saruman. The first one :>: (which Gandalf just told us about, sketchily, at the Council of :>: Elrond) ended in a draw; :> :>I do not see this at all. Are you saying Saruman "persuaded" :>Gandalf into staying by means of his voice? Why could he :>persuade Gandalf to stay, but not to join with Saruman, or to :>reveal where the Ring was? : I said it ended in a draw. Saruman didn't conquer Gandalf, and : Gandalf didn't conquer Saruman. Saruman physically confined Gandalf, : -because_ Gandalf was still fully resisting him. : -- : Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA But how did Saruman physically confine Gandalf? Why was he able to do this if the outcome of their "fight" was a draw? Stephen ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:58:55 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97700 stephen@nomail.com wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >But how did Saruman physically confine Gandalf? Why was >he able to do this if the outcome of their "fight" was a draw? Have you forgotten the Council of Elrond? G makes it pretty clear. S shut him on the roof of Orthanc. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 19 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 04:42:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97694 In article , Stan Brown wrote: > stephen@nomail.com wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>But how did Saruman physically confine Gandalf? Why was >>he able to do this if the outcome of their "fight" was a draw? > > Have you forgotten the Council of Elrond? G makes it pretty clear. S > shut him on the roof of Orthanc. Yes, and I fail to see the difficulty with this. Saruman, at that time, was obviously stronger than Gandalf. Beyond that, even if Gandalf could have got past Saruman, he still had the forces of Isengard to deal with. Gandalf was a pretty tough fellow, but he obviously wasn't indestructible. Saruman, in every sense of the word, had the upper hand, and likely did not need to or desire to enter some sort of actual battle of wills with Gandalf. -- AC ###### Reply-To: "Noldor" From: "Noldor" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d67f751.117789041@news.inetnebr.com> <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> <6u3cqq43o7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 05:27:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.181.81 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1035869241 63.14.181.81 (Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:27:21 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:27:21 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97651 > Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ > The Hitchcock "Birds" like attack of the Crebain was also this class > of mistake. I didn't see any "attack", they flew overhead. Like it or not, that is right out of the book. Character details were different but the flock of birds flying low to spy was written by Tolkien, not PJ. -Matthew- ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:00:27 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <22680de.0208251510.69e6251c@posting.google.com> <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97716 AC wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , Stan Brown wrote: >> stephen@nomail.com wrote in >> rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >>>But how did Saruman physically confine Gandalf? Why was >>>he able to do this if the outcome of their "fight" was a draw? >> >> Have you forgotten the Council of Elrond? G makes it pretty clear. S >> shut him on the roof of Orthanc. > >Yes, and I fail to see the difficulty with this. Saruman, at that time, was >obviously stronger than Gandalf. That is not only not obvious, it's not even true. They were more or less evenly matched. If you mean "stronger" in the sense of having lots of followers at hand, then obviously that was true. That's how Saruman was able to have Gandalf put at the top of Orthanc. > Beyond that, even if Gandalf could have >got past Saruman, he still had the forces of Isengard to deal with. Gandalf >was a pretty tough fellow, but he obviously wasn't indestructible. Saruman, >in every sense of the word, had the upper hand, and likely did not need to >or desire to enter some sort of actual battle of wills with Gandalf. What do you think went on, if _not_ a battle of wills? Saruman tried to get Gandalf around to his side, and Gandalf tried to get Saruman around to _his_. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Oct 2002 14:46:34 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 17 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97669 Stan Brown wrote: : stephen@nomail.com wrote in : rec.arts.books.tolkien: :>But how did Saruman physically confine Gandalf? Why was :>he able to do this if the outcome of their "fight" was a draw? : Have you forgotten the Council of Elrond? G makes it pretty clear. S : shut him on the roof of Orthanc. : -- : Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA Yes, but how? Did he physically drag Gandalf up to the roof? Why did Gandalf let himself be led to the roof? Stephen ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Oct 2002 15:05:06 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1035903906 3044835 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97729 On 29 pa? 2002, stephen@nomail.com scribbled loosely: > Yes, but how? Did he physically drag Gandalf up to the roof? > Why did Gandalf let himself be led to the roof? > Because he had no will to oppose... -- Pradera --- Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage Tori no mure ga naiteiru Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Oct 2002 15:11:26 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 15 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97674 Pradera wrote: : On 29 pa? 2002, stephen@nomail.com scribbled loosely: :> Yes, but how? Did he physically drag Gandalf up to the roof? :> Why did Gandalf let himself be led to the roof? :> : Because he had no will to oppose... : -- : Pradera Your evidence for this? Stephen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <22680de.0208271803.242d1364@posting.google.com> <3D6C34EF.1CD03B97@planet.nl> <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:10:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!xmission!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97701 In article , stephen@nomail.com wrote: > > Yes, but how? Did he physically drag Gandalf up to the roof? > Why did Gandalf let himself be led to the roof? What precisely were Gandalf's alternatives? Even if he got past Saruman, he still had the denizens of Orthanc to deal with. -- AC ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Oct 2002 16:48:14 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 20 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97670 AC wrote: : In article , stephen@nomail.com wrote: :> :> Yes, but how? Did he physically drag Gandalf up to the roof? :> Why did Gandalf let himself be led to the roof? : What precisely were Gandalf's alternatives? Even if he got past Saruman, he : still had the denizens of Orthanc to deal with. : -- : AC We do not know exactly what Gandalf's capabilities are. Could the denizens of Orthanc actually harm Gandalf? As Gandalf the White he was apparently immune to ``normal'' weaponry. As Gandalf the Grey he was able to survive a fall down the chasm in Moria and still battle a Balrog. Was he really threatened by Orcs? Stephen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:25:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97699 In article , stephen@nomail.com wrote: > We do not know exactly what Gandalf's capabilities are. Could > the denizens of Orthanc actually harm Gandalf? Are you stating that you believe that Gandalf could take on the entire might of Isengard? > As Gandalf > the White he was apparently immune to ``normal'' weaponry. Gandalf the White wasn't held in Orthanc. > As Gandalf the Grey he was able to survive a fall down the > chasm in Moria and still battle a Balrog. Was he really threatened > by Orcs? In sufficient numbers, I'm sure even Gandalf the Grey would meet his limit. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Isengard was a place of strength. One does not need to be harmed to be constrained, either. -- AC ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Oct 2002 17:29:31 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1035912571 3154840 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97727 On 29 pa? 2002, stephen@nomail.com scribbled loosely: > We do not know exactly what Gandalf's capabilities are. Could > the denizens of Orthanc actually harm Gandalf? As Gandalf > the White he was apparently immune to ``normal'' weaponry. > As Gandalf the Grey he was able to survive a fall down the > chasm in Moria and still battle a Balrog. Was he really threatened > by Orcs? > So, basicaly, what is your claim? In some posts, you say he was not defeated mentaly. Now you suggest he was not defeated physicaly. What do you suggest? Or do you simply show flaws in any theory, not providing your own? Which is a fair job, but I'd like to be sure. -- Pradera --- Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage Tori no mure ga naiteiru Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Oct 2002 17:30:12 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1035912612 3154840 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97726 On 29 pa? 2002, stephen@nomail.com scribbled loosely: >:> Yes, but how? Did he physically drag Gandalf up to the roof? >:> Why did Gandalf let himself be led to the roof? >:> > >: Because he had no will to oppose... > >: -- >: Pradera > > Your evidence for this? > He didn't oppose. Or at least, we don't know anything about it. -- Pradera --- Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage Tori no mure ga naiteiru Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:11:52 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97692 "AC" wrote in message news:slrnarth4u.rb8.spam@ts1.alberni.net... > In article , stephen@nomail.com wrote: > > We do not know exactly what Gandalf's capabilities are. Could > > the denizens of Orthanc actually harm Gandalf? > > Are you stating that you believe that Gandalf could take on the entire might > of Isengard? > > > As Gandalf > > the White he was apparently immune to ``normal'' weaponry. > > Gandalf the White wasn't held in Orthanc. > > > As Gandalf the Grey he was able to survive a fall down the > > chasm in Moria and still battle a Balrog. Was he really threatened > > by Orcs? > > In sufficient numbers, I'm sure even Gandalf the Grey would meet his limit. > The Hobbit: "Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped." ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family References: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:20:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97691 In article , The American wrote: > > "AC" wrote in message >> >> In sufficient numbers, I'm sure even Gandalf the Grey would meet his > limit. >> > > The Hobbit: > > "Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed > from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high > right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, > though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down > like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped." First off, I'm not convinced that using the Hobbit as an accurate description of Gandalf's powers is reliable. Second of all, his solution was essentially to commit a very impressive form of suicide to save Thorin and Co. -- AC ###### From: Pradera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Oct 2002 22:14:01 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1035929641 3404321 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97750 On 29 paz 2002, stephen@nomail.com scribbled loosely: > No, we do not know how Gandalf was constrained. We have had several > theories. > 1. Saruman defeated Gandalf in a spoken Wizard's duel > 2. Saruman made Gandalf depressed and sulky and carried him up > to the > top. > 3. Saruman and his Orcs escorted Gandalf to the top. (is there > any evidence that Orcs were ever in Orthanc?) > 4. Saruman had authority over Gandalf and ordered him to stay. > The book totally glosses over exactly what happens, and I do not > think there is a really satisfactory explanation. It was a necessary > plot point that Gandalf be delayed, but the exact details of it > do not seem entirely consistent. > Are those theories, as a whole, satisfactory to you? They are to me. We have too little material to determine which one of those four theories is right, but enough to say that most probably one of them was. In the end, this only proves that there was no 'fireball&lightning' duel between S&G, which was the point I wanted to make most of all. I think a short summary of those four points should be made. You know, FAQ-like. I could do point 2, as this is my personal theory (although I'm not sure I understand the difference between 1 and 2. To me, 2 is a consequence of 1. And I won't fight much about 'depressed and sulky, either - if you find another words to describe, for example, Theoden's riders' reaction on Saruman's voice), but don't feel strong enough to find out sources for other points. Do I hear a volunteer? ;) (I'm not so sure about 4., either. I don't think Gandalf had to wait for Eru to tell him he can disobey Saruman, in view of obvious treason of the latter) (so that leaves us with 1-2 and 3. Orcs? Not neccessarily, mind you - could've been Dunlendings. But would Gandalf give up without a fight? Hmm we know that Gandalf tends to make a kamikaze when he's in a rut - he attempts it with wolves in Hobbit, he succeeds with Balrog. Since we don't know about any such attempt, and have no reason to believe he would be silent about it, we could assume nothing like that happenned. This is tough. OTOH, he attempts at kamikaze if there's someone to protect. There was noone to protect at Orthanc... unless Saruman's death would prove more worthy to the quest than Gandalf's life. Not very likely.) (sorry for weird manner of posting. I don't feel too well) -- Pradera --- Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage Tori no mure ga naiteiru Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/ ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: 29 Oct 2002 22:19:18 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 40 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97746 Pradera wrote: : On 29 paz 2002, stephen@nomail.com scribbled loosely: :> No, we do not know how Gandalf was constrained. We have had several :> theories. :> 1. Saruman defeated Gandalf in a spoken Wizard's duel :> 2. Saruman made Gandalf depressed and sulky and carried him up :> to the :> top. :> 3. Saruman and his Orcs escorted Gandalf to the top. (is there :> any evidence that Orcs were ever in Orthanc?) :> 4. Saruman had authority over Gandalf and ordered him to stay. :> The book totally glosses over exactly what happens, and I do not :> think there is a really satisfactory explanation. It was a necessary :> plot point that Gandalf be delayed, but the exact details of it :> do not seem entirely consistent. :> : Are those theories, as a whole, satisfactory to you? They are to me. We : have too little material to determine which one of those four theories is : right, but enough to say that most probably one of them was. In the end, : this only proves that there was no 'fireball&lightning' duel between S&G, : which was the point I wanted to make most of all. As I said, they are not satisfactory to me. I thought your point was that you knew what a Wizard's duel looked like, even though it looks like no other confrontation we see between a Wizard and another opponent. : I think a short summary of those four points should be made. You know, : FAQ-like. I could do point 2, as this is my personal theory (although I'm : not sure I understand the difference between 1 and 2. To me, 2 is a : consequence of 1. And I won't fight much about 'depressed and sulky, : either - if you find another words to describe, for example, Theoden's : riders' reaction on Saruman's voice), but don't feel strong enough to : find out sources for other points. Do I hear a volunteer? ;) You mean delight? Theoden's riders' first reaction to Saruman's voice was delight. Go read the quote you posted. Stephen ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:07:23 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <6ur8gimyrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97784 AC wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >First off, I'm not convinced that using the Hobbit as an accurate >description of Gandalf's powers is reliable. Questionable, I agree. > Second of all, his solution >was essentially to commit a very impressive form of suicide to save Thorin >and Co. No, they were all doomed (as far as he knew). He was simply trying to take some goblins with him. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com "Honesty always gives you the advantage of surprise." -- /Yes, Prime Minister/ ###### From: "The Bradleys" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3DBC9B6F.DFF53645@gapingvoid.org> Subject: Re: Christopher Tolkien and family Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:36:01 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.127.188.194 X-Trace: eagle.america.net 1036086053 63.127.188.194 (Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:40:53 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:40:53 EST Organization: 24hoursupport.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!falcon.america.net!eagle.america.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:97862 > > > No, we do not know how Gandalf was constrained. We have had several > > theories. > > 1. Saruman defeated Gandalf in a spoken Wizard's duel > > 2. Saruman made Gandalf depressed and sulky and carried him up > > to the > > top. > > 3. Saruman and his Orcs escorted Gandalf to the top. (is there > > any evidence that Orcs were ever in Orthanc?) > > 4. Saruman had authority over Gandalf and ordered him to stay. > > The book totally glosses over exactly what happens, and I do not > > think there is a really satisfactory explanation. It was a necessary > > plot point that Gandalf be delayed, but the exact details of it > > do not seem entirely consistent. > > > > Are those theories, as a whole, satisfactory to you? They are to me. We > have too little material to determine which one of those four theories is > right, but enough to say that most probably one of them was. In the end, > this only proves that there was no 'fireball&lightning' duel between S&G, > which was the point I wanted to make most of all. > > I think a short summary of those four points should be made. You know, > FAQ-like. I could do point 2, as this is my personal theory (although I'm > not sure I understand the difference between 1 and 2. To me, 2 is a > consequence of 1. And I won't fight much about 'depressed and sulky, > either - if you find another words to describe, for example, Theoden's > riders' reaction on Saruman's voice), but don't feel strong enough to > find out sources for other points. Do I hear a volunteer? ;) > > (I'm not so sure about 4., either. I don't think Gandalf had to wait for > Eru to tell him he can disobey Saruman, in view of obvious treason of the > latter) > > (so that leaves us with 1-2 and 3. Orcs? Not neccessarily, mind you - > could've been Dunlendings. But would Gandalf give up without a fight? Hmm > we know that Gandalf tends to make a kamikaze when he's in a rut - he > attempts it with wolves in Hobbit, he succeeds with Balrog. Since we > don't know about any such attempt, and have no reason to believe he would > be silent about it, we could assume nothing like that happenned. This is > tough. > OTOH, he attempts at kamikaze if there's someone to protect. There was > noone to protect at Orthanc... unless Saruman's death would prove more > worthy to the quest than Gandalf's life. Not very likely.) > > (sorry for weird manner of posting. I don't feel too well) > I always thought it was more that Gandalf still hoped to "find the good" within Saruman. It seems likely that the only way Gandalf could have escaped completely was by killing him. I dont think that he wished that to happen as he shows later.