From: "Joan De Water" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: An update on my martial art post. Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:04:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.176 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1029909847 12.90.169.176 (Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:04:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:04:07 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92989 Being the person who wrote this post, I feel I should explain myself further as to the last few lines and thank those who answered my questions. I am a martial art practitioner (eastern, to the person who corrected me in my narrow views of martial arts), and am very much in love with it, the belief systems and the idea that anything is possible through these. Hence my desire to see someone other than Gandalf wield magic(ie. the qi blast). And just because i described it that way, doesn't mean it would be depicted that way(qi is not necessarily seen but felt). And being one who feels that eastern martial arts are a more fluid and graceful means of fighting, I think it would have made an interesting contrast to the heavy handed, claymoresque chopping style evident in the book. ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:12:52 -0700 Organization: tos coyote Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c25.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93042 In article , "Joan De Water" wrote: > Being the person who wrote this post, I feel I should explain myself further > as to the last few lines and thank those who answered my questions. I am a > martial art practitioner (eastern, to the person who corrected me in my > narrow views of martial arts), and am very much in love with it, the belief > systems and the idea that anything is possible through these. Hence my we need more marital arts practioners like aragon and arwen faramir and eowyn sam and rosie 'sam how many children do you have' 'fifteen' 'and what is your favorite hobby' 'taling long walks and cold showers' ###### From: Chris Applegate Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 04:00:04 -0400 Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH, USA Lines: 22 Sender: cxa25@63.96.230.220 Message-ID: <3D634884.50201@po.cwru.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.96.230.220 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: eeyore.INS.cwru.edu 1029916754 24811 63.96.230.220 (21 Aug 2002 07:59:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@po.cwru.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2002 07:59:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-User: cxa25@63.96.230.220 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!usenet.INS.cwru.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93062 Joan De Water wrote: > systems and the idea that anything is possible through these. Hence my > desire to see someone other than Gandalf wield magic You mean other than Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, the Valar, Morgoth, Feanor, Galadriel, Luthien, Elwing, Elrond, the Balrog, Glaurung, Beorn, the Druedain, Melian, and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain? > And being one who feels that > eastern martial arts are a more fluid and graceful means of fighting, I > think it would have made an interesting contrast to the heavy handed, > claymoresque chopping style evident in the book. So would the use of machine guns and barbed wire. But consistency trumps the "what-if" scenario. If Tolkien had included every little thing that his readers were interested in, the LotR would read like an episode of Masters of the Universe. Action figure possibilities would be limitless, though. CDA ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. References: Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:59:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.news2me.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93029 In article , Joan De Water wrote: > Being the person who wrote this post, I feel I should explain myself further > as to the last few lines and thank those who answered my questions. I am a > martial art practitioner (eastern, to the person who corrected me in my > narrow views of martial arts), and am very much in love with it, the belief > systems and the idea that anything is possible through these. Hence my > desire to see someone other than Gandalf wield magic(ie. the qi blast). And > just because i described it that way, doesn't mean it would be depicted that > way(qi is not necessarily seen but felt). And being one who feels that > eastern martial arts are a more fluid and graceful means of fighting, I > think it would have made an interesting contrast to the heavy handed, > claymoresque chopping style evident in the book. A consideration that the book takes place in what is essentially Europe would immediately signal that no martial arts as you describe would be present. Beyond that, considering the time period in which LotR was supposed to have occured, Oriental martial arts would have been something of an anachronism. -- AC ###### From: stealthy_tanuki@-remove-yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Organization: minimal Message-ID: <3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:10:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.88.105.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1029946256 12.88.105.12 (Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:10:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:10:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93047 On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:59:31 GMT, AC wrote: >In article , Joan De Water wrote: >> Being the person who wrote this post, I feel I should explain myself further >> as to the last few lines and thank those who answered my questions. I am a >> martial art practitioner (eastern, to the person who corrected me in my >> narrow views of martial arts), and am very much in love with it, the belief >> systems and the idea that anything is possible through these. Hence my >> desire to see someone other than Gandalf wield magic(ie. the qi blast). And >> just because i described it that way, doesn't mean it would be depicted that >> way(qi is not necessarily seen but felt). And being one who feels that >> eastern martial arts are a more fluid and graceful means of fighting, I >> think it would have made an interesting contrast to the heavy handed, >> claymoresque chopping style evident in the book. > >A consideration that the book takes place in what is essentially Europe >would immediately signal that no martial arts as you describe would be >present. Beyond that, considering the time period in which LotR was >supposed to have occured, Oriental martial arts would have been something of >an anachronism. also, martial arts *when*? The chinese used a heavy chopping sword at certain periods and in battlefield situations against opponents using armor, the techniques of budo and iaido would have been silly to a large degree in a Japanese context Apples and heavy machinery comparison, in my view. ###### From: "Joan De Water" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D634884.50201@po.cwru.edu> Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:54:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.158 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1029948893 12.90.173.158 (Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:54:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:54:53 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93015 I posted this simply as a what if for fans of martial arts (eastern style). Obviously Tolkien had to appeal first and foremost to himself. This arose from a simple desire to read about something other than clumsy fighting. And I still would have liked to see one of the humans use qi. "Chris Applegate" wrote in message news:3D634884.50201@po.cwru.edu... > Joan De Water wrote: > > systems and the idea that anything is possible through these. Hence my > > desire to see someone other than Gandalf wield magic > > You mean other than Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, the Valar, Morgoth, Feanor, > Galadriel, Luthien, Elwing, Elrond, the Balrog, Glaurung, Beorn, the > Druedain, Melian, and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain? > > > And being one who feels that > > eastern martial arts are a more fluid and graceful means of fighting, I > > think it would have made an interesting contrast to the heavy handed, > > claymoresque chopping style evident in the book. > > So would the use of machine guns and barbed wire. But consistency trumps the > "what-if" scenario. If Tolkien had included every little thing that his > readers were interested in, the LotR would read like an episode of Masters > of the Universe. > > Action figure possibilities would be limitless, though. > > CDA > ###### From: "Joan De Water" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:57:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.158 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1029949033 12.90.173.158 (Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:57:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:57:13 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93006 I simply meant Shaolin and Tai Chi, both of which are suitable for any fighting circumstance. wrote in message news:3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net... > On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:59:31 GMT, AC wrote: > > >In article , Joan De Water wrote: > >> Being the person who wrote this post, I feel I should explain myself further > >> as to the last few lines and thank those who answered my questions. I am a > >> martial art practitioner (eastern, to the person who corrected me in my > >> narrow views of martial arts), and am very much in love with it, the belief > >> systems and the idea that anything is possible through these. Hence my > >> desire to see someone other than Gandalf wield magic(ie. the qi blast). And > >> just because i described it that way, doesn't mean it would be depicted that > >> way(qi is not necessarily seen but felt). And being one who feels that > >> eastern martial arts are a more fluid and graceful means of fighting, I > >> think it would have made an interesting contrast to the heavy handed, > >> claymoresque chopping style evident in the book. > > > >A consideration that the book takes place in what is essentially Europe > >would immediately signal that no martial arts as you describe would be > >present. Beyond that, considering the time period in which LotR was > >supposed to have occured, Oriental martial arts would have been something of > >an anachronism. > > also, martial arts *when*? The chinese used a heavy chopping sword at > certain periods and in battlefield situations against opponents using > armor, the techniques of budo and iaido would have been silly to a > large degree in a Japanese context > > Apples and heavy machinery comparison, in my view. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. References: <3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:14:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93027 In article , Joan De Water wrote: > I simply meant Shaolin and Tai Chi, both of which are suitable for any > fighting circumstance. In an essentially pre-historic Europe, thousands of years before such fighting styles were invented in the Orient? Doesn't sound very suitable to me. -- AC ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. References: <3D634884.50201@po.cwru.edu> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:15:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93030 In article , Joan De Water wrote: > I posted this simply as a what if for fans of martial arts (eastern style). > Obviously Tolkien had to appeal first and foremost to himself. This arose > from a simple desire to read about something other than clumsy fighting. > And I still would have liked to see one of the humans use qi. But it is chronologically unsuitable. It would be as anachronistic as machine guns. -- AC ###### From: stealthy_tanuki@-remove-yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Organization: minimal Message-ID: <3d63ceba.16721734@netnews.worldnet.att.net> References: <3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 58 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:40:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.88.104.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1029951613 12.88.104.193 (Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:40:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:40:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93048 On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:57:13 GMT, "Joan De Water" wrote: >I simply meant Shaolin and Tai Chi, both of which are suitable for any >fighting circumstance. Watch for top posting, it's bad form. :-) And Shaolin and Taijiquan (which I practice, Wudang Neigong Orthodox) is not intended for use against an armored opponent. The concept of martial arts (as a "way" or using Qi or Ki) is alien to the west. And the expression of Qi is not magic. That is one of the differences between Western films and Asian MA films, what is done is not considered supernatural, but part of a trained person's abilities. I may be wrong, but I fear your enthusiam for Budo/Wushu exceeds your knowledge. > wrote in message >news:3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net... >> On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:59:31 GMT, AC wrote: >> >> >In article , >Joan De Water wrote: >> >> Being the person who wrote this post, I feel I should explain myself >further >> >> as to the last few lines and thank those who answered my questions. I >am a >> >> martial art practitioner (eastern, to the person who corrected me in my >> >> narrow views of martial arts), and am very much in love with it, the >belief >> >> systems and the idea that anything is possible through these. Hence my >> >> desire to see someone other than Gandalf wield magic(ie. the qi blast). >And >> >> just because i described it that way, doesn't mean it would be depicted >that >> >> way(qi is not necessarily seen but felt). And being one who feels that >> >> eastern martial arts are a more fluid and graceful means of fighting, I >> >> think it would have made an interesting contrast to the heavy handed, >> >> claymoresque chopping style evident in the book. >> > >> >A consideration that the book takes place in what is essentially Europe >> >would immediately signal that no martial arts as you describe would be >> >present. Beyond that, considering the time period in which LotR was >> >supposed to have occured, Oriental martial arts would have been something >of >> >an anachronism. >> >> also, martial arts *when*? The chinese used a heavy chopping sword at >> certain periods and in battlefield situations against opponents using >> armor, the techniques of budo and iaido would have been silly to a >> large degree in a Japanese context >> >> Apples and heavy machinery comparison, in my view. > ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. From: "Jim Roberts-Miller" References: <3D634884.50201@po.cwru.edu> Organization: Right-Wing Gun Nuts from Texas Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Lines: 27 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:55:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.70.201.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1029952507 65.70.201.141 (Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:55:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:55:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!dfw-peer!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93065 AC wrote in news:slrnam7ioh.o69.spam@ts1.alberni.net: > In article > , Joan > De Water wrote: >> I posted this simply as a what if for fans of martial arts >> (eastern style). Obviously Tolkien had to appeal first and >> foremost to himself. This arose from a simple desire to read >> about something other than clumsy fighting. And I still would >> have liked to see one of the humans use qi. > > But it is chronologically unsuitable. It would be as > anachronistic as machine guns. *Chronologically* unsuitable? Hardly. Chronologically speaking, they should not have iron forging, iron/steel weapons, the capacity for great stone structures etc. etc., I'm sure I could go on. Mythically and/or culturally unsuitable would be a better answer. Jim Roberts-Miller -- Texas A&M '89, '91 "Is there in Truth no Beauty?" "Of course, you do not have to go to the moon to find cold, dark, and inhospitable...conditions. Much of Canada will do." -- the Economist http://www.mindspring.com/~jammerjim/jimpg01.html ###### From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.75.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1029952813 ST000 64.252.75.121 (Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:00:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:00:13 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: S[OYRY[E]JVOBFD[@JJLNQMAPJYRE_LHCIXNMRQIMASJETAANVW[AKWZE\]^XQWIGNE_[EBL@^_\^JOCQ^RSNVLGTFTKHTXHHP[NB\_C@\SD@EP_[KCXX__AGDDEKGFNB\ZOKLRNCY_CGG[RHT_UN@C_BSY\G__IJIX_PLSA[CCFAULEY\FL\VLGANTQQ]FN Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:00:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93063 AC wrote ... >, Joan De Water wrote: >> I simply meant Shaolin and Tai Chi, both of which are suitable for any >> fighting circumstance. > >In an essentially pre-historic Europe, thousands of years before such >fighting styles were invented in the Orient? Doesn't sound very suitable to >me. In an essentially pre-historic Europe, metal, including swords and chain-mail is not very suitable. You can't say that Shaolin and Tai Chi are unsuitable to such a time while allowing that swords are suitable. The unsuitability of eastern style martial arts to the Northwest of ME lies not in the actual time period (thousands of years ago) but rather in the historical sources of the known cultures of ME. To my knowledge, nothing like Shaolin or Tai Chi was practiced by Anglo-Saxons, Romans, Mediaeval Europeans, Byzantines, Norse, Egyptians or any other of the European and Mediterranean cultures that influenced Middle Earth cultures. In that context, using eastern style martial arts would have seemed out of place to many people. Trade. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Date: 21 Aug 2002 21:38:07 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 55 Message-ID: <6ufzx8j940.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1029958688 931 10.0.3.2 (21 Aug 2002 19:38:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2002 19:38:08 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93066 "TradeSurplus" writes: > AC wrote ... > >, Joan De Water wrote: > >> I simply meant Shaolin and Tai Chi, both of which are suitable for any > >> fighting circumstance. > > > >In an essentially pre-historic Europe, thousands of years before such > >fighting styles were invented in the Orient? > > In an essentially pre-historic Europe, metal, including swords and > chain-mail is not very suitable. You can't say that Shaolin and Tai Chi are > unsuitable to such a time while allowing that swords are suitable. Exactly. > The unsuitability of eastern style martial arts to the Northwest of ME lies > To my knowledge, nothing > like Shaolin or Tai Chi was practiced by Anglo-Saxons, Romans, Mediaeval > Europeans, Medieval Europeans had Thalhoffer (at least later med, he wrote in the mid 15th cent, but expanded on early 14th cent works) style fighting, which according to my fencing teacher is near identical with Aikido swordfighting (and he has tought Aikido for 10 years, and also today teaches the Way of Ki). He actually thinks, from what he has read, that Aikido (at least the sword part, but possibly also the throws) was imported from Europe (swordfighters that went as protectors of traders and staid there). > context, using eastern style martial arts would have seemed out of place to > many people. Actually Thalhoffer/Aikido is _exactly_ what I would expect the Eldar elves to come up with. Because its flowing form and relying more one dexterity (deflecting enemy) than on brute force (stopping). And so the Atani/Numenoreans/Dunedain would have copied this method. The crude "bang on things" technique fits to other Humans (Eriador natives, east and south) and to Orcs, and possibly Avari elves. But even they would try to avoid the sword break endangering techniques we see in the typical Hollywood flic or show fighting. P.S: Modern show fight weapons are more then twice (or even over three times) as strongly built than Thalhoffer fencing weapons (historic and replicas). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: Opusink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:23:00 -0700 Organization: Opus Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.52.131.227 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1030018778 48264716 66.52.131.227 (16 [44650]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!66.52.131.227!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93129 On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:00:13 GMT, "TradeSurplus" wrote: >The unsuitability of eastern style martial arts to the Northwest of ME lies >not in the actual time period (thousands of years ago) but rather in the >historical sources of the known cultures of ME. To my knowledge, nothing >like Shaolin or Tai Chi was practiced by Anglo-Saxons, Romans, Mediaeval >Europeans, Byzantines, Norse, Egyptians or any other of the European and >Mediterranean cultures that influenced Middle Earth cultures. In that >context, using eastern style martial arts would have seemed out of place to >many people. Actually, many scholars argue that a Greek form of hand-to-hand combat called Pankration was the basis for Chinese martial arts. Here's a brief history: http://www.freedom2000net.com/userpages/bordenm/Library/Pankration/historypankation.html Hope this helped or at least add fuel to the fire ;0) ###### From: stealthy_tanuki@-remove-yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Organization: minimal Message-ID: <3d65e46b.1300560@netnews.worldnet.att.net> References: <3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:28:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.88.104.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1030022938 12.88.104.207 (Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:28:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:28:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93107 On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:23:00 -0700, Opusink wrote: >http://www.freedom2000net.com/userpages/bordenm/Library/Pankration/historypankation.html Nonsense. Shaolin Kung Fu did not originate soon after Alexander's invasion of India (one of the first continuous martial arts, Eagle Claw, is attributed to Yueh Fei, in the Song Dynasty, a thousand years later) Karate evolved after Kung Fu Jiujitsu similarly. Also, the notion that the greek soldiers under Alexander (including Macedonians, who were considered on the Greek periphery?) had Pankration basic to them is also dubious. You will note that the article, which says many scholars support his view, does not name one of them. It is possible, it is just not supported. ###### From: Opusink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An update on my martial art post. Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:45:02 -0700 Organization: Opus Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3d66baa4.11579931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3d65e46b.1300560@netnews.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63-93-98-60.oak.dial.netzero.com (63.93.98.60) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1030088502 49930037 63.93.98.60 (16 [44650]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!63-93-98-60.oak.dial.netzero.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93180 On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:28:58 GMT, stealthy_tanuki@-remove-yahoo.com wrote: >On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:23:00 -0700, Opusink >wrote: > >>http://www.freedom2000net.com/userpages/bordenm/Library/Pankration/historypankation.html > >Nonsense. > >Shaolin Kung Fu did not originate soon after Alexander's invasion of >India (one of the first continuous martial arts, Eagle Claw, is >attributed to Yueh Fei, in the Song Dynasty, a thousand years later) Things don't just happen overnight. The origins of Kung Fu can be traced back to India: http://www.kungfucinema.com/articles/kungfuorigin.htm Here's a more detailed report if you think a brief history from a KungFu cinema site is bogus: http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1994_2/msg00040.html >Also, the notion that the greek soldiers under Alexander (including >Macedonians, who were considered on the Greek periphery?) had >Pankration basic to them is also dubious. See below. >You will note that the article, which says many scholars support his >view, does not name one of them. > >It is possible, it is just not supported. It's just a brief report so I didn't expect any specifics. I do admit that I still don't know enough but would love to learn more. Here's some info on where they might have gotten the idea, thou (skip to the last paragraph): http://www.mawn.net/his_pan.htm