Message-ID: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> From: pawn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:08:11 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.186.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1029848903 64.229.186.106 (Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:08:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:08:23 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!torn!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92898 Just skimming through some of my favourite chapters in LotR last night, and I pondered just how tall Orthanc must be for the pinnacle to only be accessible by "...many thousands of steps..." Many thousands? How many is many thousands? The term certainly can't be applied to 1 or 2 thousand. It doesn't sound right with 3 thousand. So I'm going to be conservative and choose the smallest number that, IMO, could be associated with "many" thousands, i.e., 4 thousand. How big is a step? In today's world, a typical step is about 8" high x 10" deep (rise x run). This has been determined through literally thousands of years of experience to be the least susceptible to tripping, etc.. As I understand it, Numenoreans were fairly tall individuals, so I imagine today's standard would be a minimum for them as well. So there we have it, Orthanc must be at least 4000*8/12 = 2, 667 ft high! Let's put this in perspective: The largest free standing tower in the world remains the CN Tower in my area of Toronto (although this is a debatable issue). The CN Tower is monstrously tall, it dwarfs 80 and 90 story buildings adjacent it. It is 1816 ft high. Furthermore, Tower 1 of the World Trade centre was 1758 to the top of the large antenna we all saw on television. The Petronas Twin Towers in Kuala Lumpur approach this without an antenna. Have you seen these things? I think everyone here has an image of Orthanc and it's overall size. So I ask again: just *how* tall is Orthanc? (Structure heights from: http://www.xs4all.nl/~hnetten/tallest.html) ###### Message-ID: <3D624127.1471E983@hanneng.com> From: pawn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:16:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.186.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1029849395 64.229.186.106 (Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:16:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:16:35 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!torn!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92897 pawn wrote: > Just skimming through some of my favourite chapters in LotR last night, > and I pondered just how tall Orthanc must be for the pinnacle to only be > accessible by "...many thousands of steps..." errr...the "many thousands" reference is in the "Council of Elrond" when Gandalf is describing his imprisonment. ###### From: "Robert Shaw" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:42:23 +0100 Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-386.llama.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 1029865418 16843 217.135.177.130 (20 Aug 2002 17:43:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 2002 17:43:38 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92919 pawn wrote: > Just skimming through some of my favourite chapters in LotR last > night, and I pondered just how tall Orthanc must be for the pinnacle > to only be accessible by "...many thousands of steps..." > > Many thousands? How many is many thousands? The term certainly can't > be applied to 1 or 2 thousand. It doesn't sound right with 3 > thousand. So I'm going to be conservative and choose the smallest > number that, IMO, could be associated with "many" thousands, i.e., 4 > thousand. > > How big is a step? In today's world, a typical step is about 8" high > x 10" deep (rise x run). This has been determined through literally > thousands of years of experience to be the least susceptible to > tripping, etc.. As I understand it, Numenoreans were fairly tall > individuals, so I imagine today's standard would be a minimum for them > as well. > > So there we have it, Orthanc must be at least 4000*8/12 = 2, 667 ft > high! Let's put this in perspective: > The endless stair of Moria is also described as many thousand steps, and that goes 'from the lowest dungeon to the highest peak.' I don't know how high the Misty Mountains are, but the endless stair should be a significant proportion of their height if not longer. Assuming they're around the same height as the Alps, high enough to be snow-capped at their latitude, they would be around 10 or 15 thousand feet, putting the endless stair at anywhere from 7000 ft to 18,000 ft. With human scaled steps, that's a minimum of 10,500 steps, ranging up to over 27,000. Dwarves would actually use more smaller steps. Describing the endless stair as many thousand steps is a slight understatement, but then Gandalf was too busy with the Balrog to keep an accurate count. Similarly, his description of Orthanc is only approximate. It felt like many thousand steps but it may only have been 2000. All we can say from this is that Orthanc was most likely over 1000 ft tall. Is there anything in the letters or HoME that gives a better estimate? -- Matter is fundamentally lazy:- It always takes the path of least effort Matter is fundamentally stupid:- It tries every other path first. That is the heart of physics - The rest is details.- Robert Shaw ###### From: "Sean Murphy" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:46:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.198.147.67 X-Complaints-To: Abuse Role , We Care X-Trace: monger.newsread.com 1029865563 209.198.147.67 (Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:46:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:46:03 EDT Organization: PrismNet, Inc. (prismnet.com) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!news-toy.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!grr!POSTED.monger.newsread.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92934 "pawn" wrote in message news:3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com... > Just skimming through some of my favourite chapters in LotR last night, > and I pondered just how tall Orthanc must be for the pinnacle to only be > accessible by "...many thousands of steps..." > > Many thousands? How many is many thousands? The term certainly can't > be applied to 1 or 2 thousand. It doesn't sound right with 3 thousand. > So I'm going to be conservative and choose the smallest number that, > IMO, could be associated with "many" thousands, i.e., 4 thousand. > > How big is a step? In today's world, a typical step is about 8" high x > 10" deep (rise x run). This has been determined through literally > thousands of years of experience to be the least susceptible to > tripping, etc.. As I understand it, Numenoreans were fairly tall > individuals, so I imagine today's standard would be a minimum for them > as well. I think applying contemporary construction standards is a mistake. Having visited a lot of ruins in Europe and the Middle East, I can say with certainty that step size varies radically, literally from one site to the next. Who knows what the steps on Orthanc were for (aside from the obvious use of getting up to the top)? Perhaps they were very low to facilitate a cart going up them, or for people wearing formal robes to be able to climb them without tripping over their clothes. There's just no reason to assume they would be using the same step height we use in our modern construction. Just my opinion... ###### From: "pawn" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:14:50 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.141.149.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cogeco.ca X-Trace: read1.cgocable.net 1029867418 24.141.149.78 (Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:16:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:16:58 EDT Organization: Cogeco Cable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.cgocable.net!read1.cgocable.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92921 "Robert Shaw" wrote in message news:ajtv4a$geb$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk... > pawn wrote: > > > The endless stair of Moria is also described as many thousand steps, > and that goes 'from the lowest dungeon to the highest peak.' > Much more believable for stairs carved into a natural occuring structure. > > Similarly, his description of Orthanc is only approximate. It felt > like many thousand steps but it may only have been 2000. All > we can say from this is that Orthanc was most likely over 1000 ft > tall. > 1000 ft? Even 1000 feet would be a huge number. I would have thought more like 300 or 400 feet. > Is there anything in the letters or HoME that gives a better estimate? > > > -- > Matter is fundamentally lazy:- It always takes the path of least effort > Matter is fundamentally stupid:- It tries every other path first. > That is the heart of physics - The rest is details.- Robert Shaw > > ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:53:45 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92920 "pawn" wrote in message news:uIv89.10944$3a.311383@read1.cgocable.net... > "Robert Shaw" wrote in message > news:ajtv4a$geb$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk... > > pawn wrote: > > > > > The endless stair of Moria is also described as many thousand steps, > > and that goes 'from the lowest dungeon to the highest peak.' > > > > Much more believable for stairs carved into a natural occuring structure. > espescially if the dwarves had over 10,000 years to do it. > > Similarly, his description of Orthanc is only approximate. It felt > > like many thousand steps but it may only have been 2000. All > > we can say from this is that Orthanc was most likely over 1000 ft > > tall. > > > > 1000 ft? Even 1000 feet would be a huge number. I would have thought more > like 300 or 400 feet. > > i love your thoughts on this, btw. pretty clever. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Date: 20 Aug 2002 22:31:09 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6uy9b1s25u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1029875469 278 10.0.3.2 (20 Aug 2002 20:31:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 2002 20:31:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92966 pawn writes: > Furthermore, Tower 1 of the World Trade centre was 1758 to the top of > the large antenna we all saw on television. That line just triggerd an flash of an "alternative story line". Assume Pipin got the Palantir, Sauron knows Saruman has an Hobbit. Then Aragorn does _not_ look into it (perhaps because he fears being taken over by Sauron), thus not distracting Sauron and drawing him out. Consequently Sauron attacks the traitor Saruman (this may be actually sensible for Aragorn, to let him waste his forces this way). And now it comes: by having an Nazgul (with winged steed) crash into Orthanc. Now imagine PJ having to film that in todays political climate. Would make his present problem with the name "The Two Towers" look harmless. *Shudder* -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: "Robert Shaw" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:30:34 +0100 Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-144.monkey.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 1029875537 26827 217.135.208.144 (20 Aug 2002 20:32:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 2002 20:32:17 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92969 pawn wrote: > "Robert Shaw" wrote >> Similarly, his description of Orthanc is only approximate. It felt >> like many thousand steps but it may only have been 2000. All >> we can say from this is that Orthanc was most likely over 1000 ft >> tall. >> > > 1000 ft? Even 1000 feet would be a huge number. I would have > thought more like 300 or 400 feet. > The height of the top platform is actually given in 'The road to Isengard' 'Upon a floor of polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand 500 feet above the plain. The tallest pinacle will be a little taller, but not much. Either the steps were shallow, little over a inch high, or Gandalf exaggerated. Most likely, it's a bit of both. Gandalf described how many steps it felt like he'd climbed and they were gentle, doable in in ornate floor-length robes. Five hundred feet is still pretty impressive though. The Barad-dur will have been taller, and the endless stair much longer, but Orthanc may have been the tallest work of man. -- Matter is fundamentally lazy:- It always takes the path of least effort Matter is fundamentally stupid:- It tries every other path first. That is the heart of physics - The rest is details.- Robert Shaw ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:07:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.41 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1030223225 12.79.22.41 (Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:07:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:07:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93230 "pawn" wrote in message news:3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com... > Just skimming through some of my favourite chapters in LotR last > night, and I pondered just how tall Orthanc must be for the > pinnacle to only be accessible by "...many thousands of steps..." In the first depiction of Orthanc it was described as having a base of stone 200' high with the tower itself constructed atop that in 'drums' of decreasing radius. Tolkien's drawing of this shows the tower almost exactly twice the height of the stone base... so 400'. However, the second concept of Orthanc described it as; "marvelously tall and slender, like a stone horn, that at the tip branched into three tines; and between the tines was a narrow space where a man could stand a thousand feet above the vale." WotR, pg32 However, in the final form this height was cut in half; "A peak and isle of rock it was, black and gleaming hard: four mighty piers of many-sided stone were welded into one, but near the summit they opened into gaping horns, their pinnacles sharp as the points of spears, keen-edged as knives. Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five hundred feet above the plain." TT, The Road to Isengard And there you have it. Five hundred feet tall. ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:40:57 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 9 Message-ID: <4avfmu8ak83gbefgjv0iv7u1p214pl3ou5@4ax.com> References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-796.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93305 On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:07:05 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: | |And there you have it. Five hundred feet tall. Is it just because I'm so afraid of heights, or did the Tower in the movie appear taller than that? ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:14:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.48.198.168 X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-Trace: news1.news.adelphia.net 1030238097 24.48.198.168 (Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:14:57 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:14:57 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!router1.news.adelphia.net!news1.news.adelphia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93301 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:ZzS99.32883$Ke2.2309873@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "pawn" wrote in message > news:3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com... > > > > "A peak and isle of rock it was, black and gleaming hard: four mighty > piers of many-sided stone were welded into one, but near the summit > they opened into gaping horns, their pinnacles sharp as the points of > spears, keen-edged as knives. Between them was a narrow space, and > there upon a floor of polished stone, written with strange signs, a > man might stand five hundred feet above the plain." > TT, The Road to Isengard > > > And there you have it. Five hundred feet tall. well, not quite. your WotR quote doesn't count because the TT is the final authority. and you missed an earlier passage from the same chapter that says: "One who passed in and came at length out of the echoing tunnel, beheld a plain, a great circle, somewhat hollowed like a vast shallow bowl: a mile it measured from rim to rim. " a shallow bowl a mile across means that for a man to stand 500 feet above the plain the Tower must be a little taller than 500 feet to account for the dip. so maybe add another 100 feet. and how tall were those "horns" at he top? could be another 100 ft for all we know. so how about 700 ft total? or there abouts. plus Orthanc extended down into the plain itself. that might be the place where the additional steps come from. from the basement to the top. 1000 ft. ###### From: "pawn" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> <4avfmu8ak83gbefgjv0iv7u1p214pl3ou5@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:25:54 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.141.149.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cogeco.ca X-Trace: read2.cgocable.net 1030253149 24.141.149.78 (Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:25:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:25:49 EDT Organization: Cogeco Cable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.cgocable.net!read2.cgocable.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93258 "Boris Badenov" wrote in message news:4avfmu8ak83gbefgjv0iv7u1p214pl3ou5@4ax.com... > On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:07:05 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" > wrote: > > | > |And there you have it. Five hundred feet tall. > > Is it just because I'm so afraid of heights, or did the Tower in the movie appear taller > than that? > I think you should carefully consider how high 500 feet is. ###### From: "pawn" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:30:04 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.141.149.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cogeco.ca X-Trace: read2.cgocable.net 1030253399 24.141.149.78 (Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:29:59 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:29:59 EDT Organization: Cogeco Cable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.cgocable.net!read2.cgocable.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93259 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:ZzS99.32883$Ke2.2309873@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "pawn" wrote in message > news:3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com... > > > "A peak and isle of rock it was, black and gleaming hard: four mighty > piers of many-sided stone were welded into one, but near the summit > they opened into gaping horns, their pinnacles sharp as the points of > spears, keen-edged as knives. Between them was a narrow space, and > there upon a floor of polished stone, written with strange signs, a > man might stand five hundred feet above the plain." > TT, The Road to Isengard > > > And there you have it. Five hundred feet tall. > That still leaves the inital quandry of step height, which if you agree that the least number of thousands that "many" thousands could be is four, the maximum height of each step is 1.5". And what does having small enough steps so as not to trip on a robe have to do with anything? I don't really picture the original builders as "robed". ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Date: 25 Aug 2002 05:42:07 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 35 Message-ID: <92754EB99praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1030254127 51421056 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93261 Nastal dzien 25 sie 2002, gdy pawn byl laskaw napisac: > >That still leaves the inital quandry of step height, which if you agree >that the least number of thousands that "many" thousands could be is >four, the maximum height of each step is 1.5". I don't think anyone actually _counted_ the steps (except for the builders of course, but they're not in the tale)... when I see a great flock of birds, my first thought is 'there's hundreds of them!' while in fact there are about 50-100 of them... so I wouldn't take those 'many thousands' so literally... even with 2000 steps (which can easily be mistaken as 'many thousands'), we have 3 inches per step (if your calcuations are correct) and that's, I think, quite enough. B-sides, I haven't followed this thread for long (I've been away), but have you considered that these may not be english 'feet', but numenorean ones? (didn't numenoreans have bigger feet? they were taller than usual, fater lal) C-sides, the '500 feet' also seems rather like an assumption (nice round number) taken from looking below the tower, than actual height... -- Pradera, self-proclaimed shogun of BC and surroundings www.pradera-castle.prv.pl TATU - New sound for new millenium 'the devil will find work for idle hands to do' --- ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <4m2a9.33965$Ke2.2378813@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:31:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.212 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1030271488 12.79.28.212 (Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:31:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:31:28 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.2.MISMATCH!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93223 "The American" wrote in message news:lcW99.22971$WJ3.3826468@news1.news.adelphia.net... > your WotR quote doesn't count because the TT is the final authority. Which... might be why I listed the TT passage and gave it as the final authority. I included the earlier history for completeness. > and you missed an earlier passage from the same chapter that says: > "One who passed in and came at length out of the echoing tunnel, > beheld a plain, a great circle, somewhat hollowed like a vast > shallow bowl: a mile it measured from rim to rim. " No, I'm well aware of the bowl. I just believe that the 'plain' Tolkien was referring to was the base of the bowl itself rather than the area beyond the rim wall. This seems fairly well established in the texts... after all, the passage you quoted EQUATES the 'bowl' and the 'plain'. Other descriptions in the text confirm this. At that it is entirely possible that the bowl and the land beyond it were at the same level... the 'bowl' being formed by the RAISED area of the rim wall. > and how tall were those "horns" at he top? > could be another 100 ft for all we know. There were no steps leading up them so they don't factor into that equation. They would increase the height, but only in the same way that radio antennas on modern buildings are sometimes factored into the height (though more often not). > plus Orthanc extended down into the plain itself. > that might be the place where the additional steps come from. Possibly, though that does not seem to be the intent of the passage. It seems more likely that it was referring to a journey from the main entryway to the top. ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> <4m2a9.33965$Ke2.2378813@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 15:07:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.48.198.168 X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-Trace: news1.news.adelphia.net 1030288039 24.48.198.168 (Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:07:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:07:19 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!router1.news.adelphia.net!news1.news.adelphia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93336 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:4m2a9.33965$Ke2.2378813@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "The American" wrote in message > news:lcW99.22971$WJ3.3826468@news1.news.adelphia.net... > > > your WotR quote doesn't count because the TT is the final authority. > > Which... might be why I listed the TT passage and gave it as the > final authority. I included the earlier history for completeness. > sorry, i didn't pick up on that with the first read. good points, as always. ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 15:21:54 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> <4avfmu8ak83gbefgjv0iv7u1p214pl3ou5@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-557.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93457 On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:25:54 -0400, "pawn" wrote: |I think you should carefully consider how high 500 feet is. Trust me, I know. I know how high *five* feet is! :) ###### From: "Hans Henrik Krohn" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> <4m2a9.33965$Ke2.2378813@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3D697B35.B762EA2D@ThisIsFake.Fk> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:17:41 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.237.18.144 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@wol.dk X-Trace: news010.worldonline.dk 1030375262 213.237.18.144 (Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:21:02 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:21:02 MET DST Organization: Customer of Tiscali A/S Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news100.image.dk!news010.worldonline.dk.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93424 "Troels Forchhammer" skrev i en meddelelse news:3D697B35.B762EA2D@ThisIsFake.Fk... ... snip ... > Another thought just occurred to me regarding the number of steps. > In Copenhagen there's a tower (called "Round Tower") which doesn't > have stairs, but rather a winding paved 'road' almost to the top > (a visiting Tsar is known to have ridden up this tower i a coach). > Would it be natural in English to describe the number of paces you > would have to take to climb such a route as a number of steps? > (My dictionary is - as expected - ambiguous in this detail ;-) > I <_like_> the idea of Orthanc having a paved 'road' to the top! Unfortunately this does not jive with Gandalf's description in The Council of Elrond: "a narrow STAIR [my emphasis] of many thousand steps". Regards, Hans Henrik Krohn ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> <4m2a9.33965$Ke2.2378813@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3D697B35.B762EA2D@ThisIsFake.Fk> Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <7Eya9.36157$Ke2.2567052@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:15:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1030403715 12.79.22.203 (Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:15:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:15:15 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93502 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message news:3D697B35.B762EA2D@ThisIsFake.Fk... > Would it be natural in English to describe the number of paces you > would have to take to climb such a route as a number of steps? This IS a valid usage, but as noted the passage also indicates 'stairs'. ###### From: colin.davies8@btinternet.com (Colin Davies) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The amazing Sea King builders. Just how tall is Orthanc? Date: 30 Aug 2002 02:32:57 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: <2f1159b5.0208300132.292de970@posting.google.com> References: <3D623F3B.28E2224C@hanneng.com> <4m2a9.33965$Ke2.2378813@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3D697B35.B762EA2D@ThisIsFake.Fk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.49.156.118 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1030699977 5227 127.0.0.1 (30 Aug 2002 09:32:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2002 09:32:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93759 "Hans Henrik Krohn" wrote in message news:... > > > > I <_like_> the idea of Orthanc having a paved 'road' to the top! > Unfortunately this does not jive with Gandalf's description in The Council > of Elrond: "a narrow STAIR [my emphasis] of many thousand steps". > Could it be that, rather than going straight up, the steps were small and twisted around the outside (or inside) of the tower (like a spring), as they do in the turrets of castles, making the climb less steep, but considerably increasing the number of steps required? For such a tall building it would make the climb a lot easier. Colin