Lines: 70 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: johnnypez9@aol.com (Johnny Pez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 13 Aug 2002 06:38:55 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Gandalf Stays Dead Message-ID: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92053 Back on 28 July, Leons Petrazickis (petrazi@sprint.ca) posted the following message to soc.history.what-if: How would the storyline of LotR be affected if both Gandalf and the Balrog are killed by the fall into the pits of Moria? Would Frodo be able to complete his quest? If so, would it matter? Since the post was off-topic for shwi, nobody bothered to answer Leons' basic question. But on THIS newsgroup the question is on-topic, so I'll ask it again (suitably rephrased): What if the One had decided not to send Olorin back to Arda? How would the storyline unfold? Well, the first change to come from Gandalf's nonappearance would be on the outskirts of Fangorn Forest in III.5. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas travel into Fangorn until...they meet an Ent. Treebeard is busy conversing with Merry and Pippin, so Aragorn & Co. will probably meet up with Quickbeam. Quickbeam takes them to Treebeard, who listens to their story. Aragorn decides to leave the Hobbits with the Ents; he promised Eomer that he'd go back to Edoras after learning the Hobbits' fate, and they've only got two horses. Quickbeam leads the three companions back to the edge of Fangorn, and they ride for Edoras. Approaching Edoras at dawn the next day, Aragorn trades words with the guards at the gates. He names himself Isildur's heir, and reminds the guards of his service under Theoden's father Thengel. Once inside Meduseld, Aragorn browbeats Grima Wormtongue into silence and rouses Theoden. Eomer is freed and the Rohirrim set out for the Fords of Isen. As Saruman's army approaches, the Rohirrim retreat into Helm's deep and spend the night fighting until morning reveals the presence of the Huorns in the Deeping coomb. Aragorn leads Theoden and the others to Isengard, where they find the Hobbits waiting for them. Aragorn and Theoden ride to Orthanc, and there Aragorn, as Isildur's heir, claims possession of Orthanc and orders Saruman to leave. Saruman refuses, and Aragorn asks Treebeard to keep watch on the wizard. Before he leaves a black crystal ball thrown from Orthanc narrowly misses him. He picks it up and looks at it, and suddenly finds himself contending with Sauron's will. He manages to disengage, and it dawns on him that he holds the palantir of Orthanc. Sauron recognized him as Isildur's heir, and Aragorn realizes that the Dark Lord will jump to the obvious conclusion: that Aragorn and Saruman have joined forces. Sauron will soon be sending all the force at his disposal against Isengard, and while he is beseiging Saruman there, the Rohirrim and the Gondorians can strike at Mordor. Anorien will soon be crawling with Sauron's forces, so Aragorn and Theoden hit upon a desparate plan: they will lead the Rohirrim through the Paths of the Dead to Erech, and from there travel across Lebennin to Minas Tirith. When they reach Pelargir they find it under seige by the Corsairs of Umbar. They defeat the Corsairs with the aid of the Dead Men, seize their ships, and sail up the Anduin. Coming to Minas Tirith, they find the city under seige by the Witch-king of Angmar, as part of a delaying action by Sauron while the main army of Barad-dur crosses Cair Andros and marches towards Isengard. The Rohirrim break the seige, and Eowyn (disguised as a man) strikes down the Witch-king. Aragorn enters Minas Tirith to find that Denethor has committed suicide. He claims the crown of Gondor and leads the Gondorians and Rohirrim north to fight Sauron's army in Anorien. The two armies face off under Amon Din, and Aragorn's forces are just starting to get the worst of it when an earthquake hits, Mount Doom blows up, and Sauron's army disintegrates. The One Ring has been destroyed! Aragorn holds a memorial service for the late Ring-bearer, bids farewell to the Rohirrim, and returns to Minas Tirith. The end. Any other ideas? -- Johnny Pez Newport, Rhode Island August 2002 ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 01:31:02 -0700 Organization: tos coyote Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c14.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92107 > Well, the first change to come from Gandalf's nonappearance would be on the the first change is at amon hen when frodo awakens sauron and he caught between the will of sauron and gandalf the second cahgen with respect to frodo is whether saurons attention wouldve been drawn out of mordor once frodo enters it ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: <6v369.10286$Ep6.813122@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:33:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1029227586 12.79.23.17 (Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:33:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:33:06 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92036 "Johnny Pez" wrote in message news:20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com... > What if the One had decided not to send Olorin back to Arda? > How would the storyline unfold? > Well, the first change to come from Gandalf's nonappearance would > be on the outskirts of Fangorn Forest in III.5. Aragorn, Gimli and > Legolas travel into Fangorn until...they meet an Ent. No, actually there would be an earlier issue; Gandalf would not have been around to oppose Sauron in the battle of wills against Frodo on the Seat of Seeing. Frodo would have been overwhelmed, discovered and almost certainly captured. ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:15:24 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 52 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92104 Johnny Pez wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Back on 28 July, Leons Petrazickis (petrazi@sprint.ca) posted the following >message to soc.history.what-if: > >How would the storyline of LotR be affected if both Gandalf and the Balrog are >killed by the fall into the pits of Moria? Would Frodo be able to complete his >quest? If so, would it matter? [interesting scenario snipped] >Any other ideas? I think the events in Anorien and Rohan and Fangorn would have been moot. Think back to Frodo on the Hill of Sight. He was wearing the Ring, and Sauron had nearly found him. Two things saved him only: (1) the voice in his head saying "Take it off! Take off the Ring!", and (2) Sauron's being distracted by his struggle with Gandalf. Gandalf tells the Fellowship later about his struggle with Sauron; and I strongly suspect that the voice in Frodo's head came from Gandalf too. It was the confluence of both of these that saved Frodo from discovery. Without Gandalf, one and perhaps both would not have happened. Frodo would have been discovered, a Nazgūl would have come for him, and Sauron would have had the Ring. However... If by any chance Frodo escaped the Nazgūl, the situation would still be desperate. Sauron would now know very nearly where the Ring was, and he would shadow Frodo's path with Nazgūl. Either Frodo would be taken soon after he crossed the River, where the was no cover, or he would have decided to go on to Minas Tirith. If Frodo escaped Sauron on the Hill of Sight, _and_ stayed west of the River, _and_ made it to Minas Tirith, doom would have only been delayed. Remember that Gandalf countered Sauron's "psychological warfare" in Minas Tirith; without him, the city might have fallen through the despair of the defenders. Also, without Gandalf's healing, Théoden would not have ridden to the siege of Minas Tirith, and he might not even have sent significant cavalry. Certainly Rohan would not have helped enough to turn the tide. So Minas Tirith would certainly have fallen, and Sauron would have had the ring. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Lines: 189 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.75.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1029248390 ST000 64.252.75.121 (Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:19:50 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:19:50 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: T[OYRY[E]JVOBFD[@JJLNQMAPJYRUWPHDY^L\UQHWIWDUWYADNVOPCKZBL\NX_KHV^GY[KVMG^ZPNHSCZNS[^UXFJVWYXVXKBH[XRWWBBDTN@AX\JSBVH]_@T\EKJHBMZ\_WZJFNRY]YWKSPED_U^NC\HSZ\WS[KEAYI@DO@\K@BP\LD[\GTMPLDFVU]ASJM Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:19:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92146 Johnny Pez wrote ... >How would the storyline of LotR be affected if both Gandalf and the Balrog are >killed by the fall into the pits of Moria? Would Frodo be able to complete his >quest? If so, would it matter? > >Well, the first change to come from Gandalf's nonappearance would be on the >outskirts of Fangorn Forest in III.5. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas travel into >Fangorn until...they meet an Ent. Treebeard is busy conversing with Merry and >Pippin, so Aragorn & Co. will probably meet up with Quickbeam. Quickbeam takes >them to Treebeard, who listens to their story. Aragorn decides to leave the >Hobbits with the Ents; he promised Eomer that he'd go back to Edoras after >learning the Hobbits' fate, and they've only got two horses. Quickbeam leads >the three companions back to the edge of Fangorn, and they ride for Edoras. As others have pointed out, the first change is that Sauron sees Frodo on Amon Hen, sends the Nazgul to pick him up, The End. But aside from that, and assuming that Sauron somehow fails to find Frodo on Amon Hen (maybe Galadriel contends with his will instead of Gandalf), the story you describe may have been one that Tolkien could have written but then many 'facts' about ME would change. Taking LotR as a historical work, many of the things you describe would not be possible, IMO. For instance, in the paragraph above, Quickbeam had no reason to be anywhere near Aragorn et al. He didn't have a hill from which he liked to observe the world in that region. Assuming that Aragorn didn't give up the hunt he would have had to follow Treebeard for 70,000 ent strides (say another 35 leagues) through dense forest to Wellinghall and thence another indeterminate distance to the entmoot. >Approaching Edoras at dawn the next day, Aragorn trades words with the guards >at the gates. He names himself Isildur's heir, and reminds the guards of his >service under Theoden's father Thengel. Once inside Meduseld, Aragorn >browbeats Grima Wormtongue into silence and rouses Theoden. It was Gandalf's special purpose to rouse the free peoples of ME to the struggle against Sauron, plus he had the Ring of Fire. I don't think that Aragorn could have performed a similar feat, even had he been there, which he wouldn't if he had followed Merry and Pippin to the entmoot. >Eomer is freed and >the Rohirrim set out for the Fords of Isen. As Saruman's army approaches, the >Rohirrim retreat into Helm's deep and spend the night fighting until morning >reveals the presence of the Huorns in the Deeping coomb. Without the re-inforcements provided by Gandalf in the form of extra huorns and the men of Westfold, it seems quite likely that Theoden, Eomer and the best riders of Rohan would all have perished, except for some few escaping out through the caves maybe. >Aragorn leads Theoden >and the others to Isengard, where they find the Hobbits waiting for them. > >Aragorn and Theoden ride to Orthanc, and there Aragorn, as Isildur's heir, >claims possession of Orthanc and orders Saruman to leave. Saruman refuses, and >Aragorn asks Treebeard to keep watch on the wizard. Before he leaves a black >crystal ball thrown from Orthanc narrowly misses him. He picks it up and looks >at it, and suddenly finds himself contending with Sauron's will. He manages to >disengage, and it dawns on him that he holds the palantir of Orthanc. Sauron >recognized him as Isildur's heir, and Aragorn realizes that the Dark Lord will >jump to the obvious conclusion: that Aragorn and Saruman have joined forces. >Sauron will soon be sending all the force at his disposal against Isengard, and >while he is beseiging Saruman there, the Rohirrim and the Gondorians can strike >at Mordor. I like this bit. Unfortunately, too many 'impossibles' or at least 'very improbables' preced it to ever arrive at this point sens Gandalf. >Anorien will soon be crawling with Sauron's forces, so Aragorn and Theoden hit >upon a desparate plan: they will lead the Rohirrim through the Paths of the >Dead to Erech, and from there travel across Lebennin to Minas Tirith. Only by sticking close to Aragorn could the Dunedain, hardiest of men, survive the passage through the mountains. A long train of Rohirrim stretching far behind Aragorn would be destroyed by the same fear that did for the Corsairs. Those few Rohirrim that got through would not be able to ride as fast as the Dunedain on the other side either. >When >they reach Pelargir they find it under seige by the Corsairs of Umbar. They >defeat the Corsairs with the aid of the Dead Men, seize their ships, and sail >up the Anduin. Coming to Minas Tirith, they find the city under seige by the >Witch-king of Angmar, as part of a delaying action by Sauron while the main >army of Barad-dur crosses Cair Andros and marches towards Isengard. The >Rohirrim break the seige, and Eowyn (disguised as a man) strikes down the >Witch-king. > >Aragorn enters Minas Tirith to find that Denethor has committed suicide. He >claims the crown of Gondor and leads the Gondorians and Rohirrim north to fight >Sauron's army in Anorien. The two armies face off under Amon Din, and >Aragorn's forces are just starting to get the worst of it when an earthquake >hits, Mount Doom blows up, and Sauron's army disintegrates. The One Ring has >been destroyed! Aragorn holds a memorial service for the late Ring-bearer, >bids farewell to the Rohirrim, and returns to Minas Tirith. The ending isn't bad, except that it could never get to this point without some major changes in how ME works. >Any other ideas? How about this. Again assuming that Galadriel or someone else saves Frodo on Amon Hen so the story doesn't end immediately. Aragorn is eventually forced to give up the hunt for Merry and Pippin, somewhat consoled by Legolas' contention that they are safe enough with the ents. Making his way slowly back to Edoras he arrives there about ten days after the fall of Helm's deep to Saruman's forces. Saruman himself is trapped by the ents however, and his forces are likewise scattered by the huorns, many of them killed. Bands of Orcs, Dunlendings and Rohirrim roam the western part of Rohan, engaging in skirmishes and making life very unpleasant for the surviving inhabitants. Meanwhile the muster of Rohan has been called but at Grima's urging they concentrate on defending Edoras and the Eastern parts of Rohan. Aragorn gets little welcome at Edoras and, seeing that Rohan can be little help to Gondor in it's current state, dares the paths of the dead. The Dunedain have managed to come through the chaos in Western Rohan to join him in this venture. On the other side of Anduin, Frodo, Sam and Gollum have been lurking around the Morgul vale for days, wondering how they can possibly get past the watchful guards to get to Gollum's secret pass. Sauron, seeing that Saruman's plan worked well enough to make sure that Rohan cannot aid Gondor, launches his assault on Gondor on the 13th, around the same time as Aragorn makes for the paths of the dead. The red arrow is sent to Rohan but Theoden spares only about 1000 riders, including Eomer, whom Grima is happy to see ride to his death. Eowyn rides with him in disguise. Aragorn leads the dead men of Dunharrow to relieve the siege of Minas Tirith. A great battle is fought on the Pelennor fields in which the Witch King is destroyed by Eowyn, as fate decreed and the dead men arrive just in time to save the remnant of the Rohirrim, gathered around the body of Eomer. Though the day is won for the free peoples, and the Witch King destroyed, Sauron is content that his forces have taken Pelargir and occupied most of Lebennin and Eastern Rohan, burning and killing wherever they go. With the ghost army gone and no reinforcements from the South or from Rohan, the next assault on Minas Tirith will surely be the last. Unbeknownst to Sauron, Frodo finally managed to get inside Mordor when the army of Minas Morgul marched away, leaving the vale only lightly guarded. He makes his way towards mount Doom. Aragorn takes the Palantir from the tomb of Denethor and Faramir and reveals himself to Sauron. Sauron now concentrates all his attention on Minas Tirith, thinking he knows the reason for the defeat, unlooked for, of his first great assault. Rather than waiting for Aragorn to consolidate his power as Ringbearer, Sauron now unleashes his second great stroke, emptying Mordor and unwittingly easing the passage of the real Ringbearer. As his forces converge on Minas Tirith from North, East and South, the Ring falls into the fires of Mount Doom and is destroyed. Sauron is defeated and the bulk of his forces disintegrate into small bands, ravaging the rich countryside of Anorien, Rohan and Lebennin. It is many years before King Elessar is finally able to dislodge the Corsairs from Pelargir. This is about the most optimistic scenario I can think of without Gandalf. Trade. ###### From: "Peter Wilson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:04:44 +1200 Organization: ihug ( New Zealand ) Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p10-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1029312068 21146 203.173.236.138 (14 Aug 2002 08:01:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:01:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!nntp-relay.ihug.net!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92187 > Aragorn takes the Palantir from the tomb of Denethor and Faramir and reveals > himself to Sauron. Sauron now concentrates all his attention on Minas > Tirith, thinking he knows the reason for the defeat, unlooked for, of his > first great assault. Rather than waiting for Aragorn to consolidate his > power as Ringbearer, Sauron now unleashes his second great stroke, emptying > Mordor and unwittingly easing the passage of the real Ringbearer. As his > forces converge on Minas Tirith from North, East and South, the Ring falls > into the fires of Mount Doom and is destroyed. Sauron is defeated and the > bulk of his forces disintegrate into small bands, ravaging the rich > countryside of Anorien, Rohan and Lebennin. It is many years before King > Elessar is finally able to dislodge the Corsairs from Pelargir. This scenario would see Frodo and Sam dying, because without the intervention of the Eagles, they would have died in the resulting eruption. If there was some communication link between the phial and Galadriel herself then there could be a chance that Galadriel could command the Eagles to rescue Frodo, but this seems unlikely. If Frodo, and especially Sam, were to die, then the whole point of the novel would have been lost, because the scouring of the shire would not have taken place. -- Peter Wilson wilsong@es.co.nz > > > This is about the most optimistic scenario I can think of without Gandalf. > > Trade. > > ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 03:23:29 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3rbklucnota1u5b5ctc8v4d1nl3ejm5cns@4ax.com> Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92251 All of this is just silly! If Gandalf had stayed dead, obviously Celeborn would have stepped into the gap! the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "I shun publicity wherever I can find it." -- Allan Lamport (deceased), former mayor of Toronto. ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 03:30:55 -0700 Organization: tos coyote Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3rbklucnota1u5b5ctc8v4d1nl3ejm5cns@4ax.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c35.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92226 In article <3rbklucnota1u5b5ctc8v4d1nl3ejm5cns@4ax.com>, softrat@pobox.com wrote: > All of this is just silly! If Gandalf had stayed dead, obviously > Celeborn would have stepped into the gap! and plummeted straight down one thousand feet ###### Lines: 35 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: johnnypez9@aol.com (Johnny Pez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 Aug 2002 18:32:13 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Message-ID: <20020814143213.10201.00000397@mb-fe.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92199 morgan mair fheal writes: >In article <3rbklucnota1u5b5ctc8v4d1nl3ejm5cns@4ax.com>, softrat@pobox.com >wrote: > >> All of this is just silly! If Gandalf had stayed dead, obviously >> Celeborn would have stepped into the gap! > >and plummeted straight down one thousand feet Rhasgobel, Wilderland 25 February 3019 TA Radagast the Brown, summoned to the door of his house by vigorous knocking on the front door, opened it a crack and peered out suspiciously. It was Lady Galadriel of Lorien. "Ummm, I greet you Lady of Lorien," Radagast said nervously. "What brings you so far from your, umm, forest?" "Mithrandir is no more," Galadriel said bluntly. "He has fallen into shadow and will wander the paths of Middle-earth no more." "Dark tidings indeed," Radagast admitted, "but you haven't answered my question." "With the Grey Pilgrim gone," said Galadriel, "someone must take up his part in the defense of the Free Peoples of the West." Her eyes were fierce as they fixed upon him. "We need a new White Wizard." (anybody care to continue?) -- Johnny Pez Newport, Rhode Island August 2002 ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: 14 Aug 2002 23:53:58 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6u3cthxg20.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1029362039 2033 10.0.3.2 (14 Aug 2002 21:53:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Aug 2002 21:53:59 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92258 "Peter Wilson" writes: > > forces converge on Minas Tirith from North, East and South, the Ring falls > > into the fires of Mount Doom and is destroyed. Sauron is defeated and the > > This scenario would see Frodo and Sam dying, because without the > intervention of the Eagles, they would have died in the resulting eruption. No doubt they would. But given that the "eagle^Wdeus ex machina" is IMHO the worst scene in the entire story, that would be an improvement. > If Frodo, and especially Sam, were to > die, then the whole point of the novel would have been lost, because the > scouring of the shire would not have taken place. How exactly would this have a) stopped Saruman from taking over the shire, or b) stopped Merry and Pippin from returning to their own adventure of overturning Saruman? In the present story it is already mainly their work, so making it entirely theirs is no big change. 2 less characters does not make no scene. There were 4 Hobbits involved. And just being hostage freeing target for Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas and then Theodens and Denethors helpers was actually too little for for these other 2. They feel as if they were just dragged on. Freeing the shire would have made them more interesting. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <37FJ3737ghgd73HHdH3R0@morialevel20.net> From: CT@waybelowmoria.com (Cave Troll) Subject: Gandalf Stays Dead Organization: Moria's Finest ISP Lines: 20 References: <6u3cthxg20.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mail-To-News-Contact: abuse@dizum.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.itconsult.net!news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92308 A human said: |> If Frodo, and especially Sam, were to |> die, then the whole point of the novel would have been lost, |> because the scouring of the shire would not have taken place. | |How exactly would this have a) stopped Saruman from taking over the |shire, or b) stopped Merry and Pippin from returning to their own |adventure of overturning Saruman? The Scouring would rock without Sam and Frodo. Not hindered by Frodo and his yes-hobbit's pity and empathy Pippin and Merry could have used their unparalleled weapon, armor and war experience superiority to run amok in a Bagend bloodbath until even the tiniest footpaths of the Shire would have at their crossroads the heads of those that aided Sharkey on stakes, in a cloud of flies to warn others of even thinking of crossing The Returned Took of Retribution and Madman Merry. Then they could return to Farmer Maggot's farm where they hid The White MiniVan of Death & use it to run over Saruman and Wormtongue as they listened to Burzum cds & fiddled with the vehicle's variable windshield wiper settings in an ale induced fog... erm, okay maybe a tad out of character for the two. ###### From: "John Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:49:43 +0100 Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.176.217.138 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.250.101.2 X-Trace: 19 Aug 2002 18:19:32 +0100, 10.250.101.2 X-Report: Report abuse to nntpabuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!wanadoo.fr!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92783 "morgan mair fheal" wrote in message news:mair_fheal-1308020131030001@c14.ppp.tsoft.com... > the first change is at amon hen > when frodo awakens sauron > and he caught between the will of sauron and gandalf > > the second cahgen with respect to frodo > is whether saurons attention wouldve been drawn out of mordor > once frodo enters it Morgan: PLEASE include capitals and correct paragraph structures. Then your posts will seem less confused and confusing that they are. Perhaps. ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:22:06 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92947 John Jones wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Morgan: PLEASE include capitals and correct paragraph structures. Then your >posts will seem less confused and confusing that they are. Perhaps. John: If you're going to flame someone else for grammar, better make sure your own article is flawless. Hint: look at your antepenultimate word. (There are two more likely errors that I see, right off the bat; but that one is a definite error.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com/ "That was a stupid lie, easy to expose, not worthy of you." George Sanders as "Addison Dewitt" in /All About Eve/ (1950) ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: 20 Aug 2002 00:35:28 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1029803728 19609 128.214.205.14 (20 Aug 2002 00:35:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 2002 00:35:28 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92930 Stan Brown wrote: > John Jones wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Morgan: PLEASE include capitals and correct paragraph structures. Then your >>posts will seem less confused and confusing that they are. Perhaps. > John: If you're going to flame someone else for grammar, better make > sure your own article is flawless. > Hint: look at your antepenultimate word. Hey Stan, his antepenultimate word is 'they', not 'that'. snip ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:13:14 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:92944 Tamim wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote: >> John Jones wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>Morgan: PLEASE include capitals and correct paragraph structures. Then your >>>posts will seem less confused and confusing that they are. Perhaps. >> >> Hint: look at your antepenultimate word. > > >Hey Stan, his antepenultimate word is 'they', not 'that'. Dang, you're right! Lucky I didn't flame him, but merely pointed out that he should be on high ground when flaming others! :-) Is there a word for the thing before the antepenultimate thing? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Trence Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:48:23 +0200 Organization: Planet Internet Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3D63EE87.1010606@planet.nl> References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip503ca8ef.speed.planet.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: reader07.wxs.nl 1029959333 10261 80.60.168.239 (21 Aug 2002 19:48:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@planet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2002 19:48:53 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-GB; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-gb Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!amsnews01.chello.com!newsfeed.wxs.nl!news.wxs.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93127 Stan Brown wrote: > Tamim wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>Stan Brown wrote: >> >>>John Jones wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>> >>>>Morgan: PLEASE include capitals and correct paragraph structures. Then your >>>>posts will seem less confused and confusing that they are. Perhaps. >>>> >>>Hint: look at your antepenultimate word. >>> >> >>Hey Stan, his antepenultimate word is 'they', not 'that'. >> > > Dang, you're right! Lucky I didn't flame him, but merely pointed out > that he should be on high ground when flaming others! :-) > > Is there a word for the thing before the antepenultimate thing? > > PRE-antepenultimate? Terence ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: 21 Aug 2002 20:04:42 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> <3D63EE87.1010606@planet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1029960282 2371 128.214.205.14 (21 Aug 2002 20:04:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2002 20:04:42 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.teledanmark.no!uninett.no!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93098 Trence wrote: >> >> Is there a word for the thing before the antepenultimate thing? >> >> > PRE-antepenultimate? And one before that would be Preproantepenultimate ###### From: Trence Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:30:20 +0200 Organization: Planet Internet Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3D651FAC.40905@planet.nl> References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> <3D63EE87.1010606@planet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip503ca8ef.speed.planet.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: reader09.wxs.nl 1030037427 2942 80.60.168.239 (22 Aug 2002 17:30:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@planet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2002 17:30:27 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-GB; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-gb Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news-x2.support.nl!newsfeed.wxs.nl!news.wxs.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93125 Tamim wrote: > Trence wrote: > > >>>Is there a word for the thing before the antepenultimate thing? >>> >>> >>> > >>PRE-antepenultimate? >> > > And one before that would be Preproantepenultimate > Now that's just silly :) Terence ###### From: "John Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> <3D63EE87.1010606@planet.nl> Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:49:39 +0100 Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3d652a84$1_1@news2.vip.uk.com> X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.176.203.151 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.250.101.2 X-Trace: 22 Aug 2002 19:19:07 +0100, 10.250.101.2 X-Report: Report abuse to nntpabuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93078 Stan Brown wrote: > Tamim wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>Stan Brown wrote: >> >>>John Jones wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>> >>>>Morgan: PLEASE include capitals and correct paragraph structures. Then your >>>>posts will seem less confused and confusing that they are. Perhaps. >>>> >>>Hint: look at your antepenultimate word. >>> >> >>Hey Stan, his antepenultimate word is 'they', not 'that'. > > > Dang, you're right! Lucky I didn't flame him, but merely pointed out > > that he should be on high ground when flaming others! :-) > > It was a typo, Stan ... and it wasn't a flame, just a sort of weary groan: American-student internet-speak is very boring, especially in a literary newsgroup. I'll just have to go back to passing Morgan's offerings without reading them. Anyway, if it was wrong of me to pull Morgan up for his version of grammar, why is it OK for you to do the same thing to everyone else? You're always at it. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: 22 Aug 2002 18:23:21 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> <3D63EE87.1010606@planet.nl> <3d652a84$1_1@news2.vip.uk.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1030040601 9412 128.214.205.14 (22 Aug 2002 18:23:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2002 18:23:21 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93092 John Jones wrote: snip > It was a typo, Stan ... and it wasn't a flame, just a sort of weary groan: > American-student internet-speak is very boring, especially in a literary > newsgroup. I'll just have to go back to passing Morgan's offerings without > reading them. > Anyway, if it was wrong of me to pull Morgan up for his version of grammar, > why is it OK for you to do the same thing to everyone else? You're always > at it. He's not. He might be a netiquette-nazi but he's not a grammar-nazi. -- ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf Stays Dead Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:43:48 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20020813023855.16254.00004105@mb-fq.aol.com> <3d612811_1@news2.vip.uk.com> <3D63EE87.1010606@planet.nl> <3d652a84$1_1@news2.vip.uk.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:93118 John Jones wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Anyway, if it was wrong of me to pull Morgan up for his version of grammar, That wasn't wrong, just mean-spirited and snippy. What was wrong was to do it when making a grammatical error yourself. >why is it OK for you to do the same thing to everyone else? You're always >at it. If I'm "always" doing it (your word), it's because I never make errors. In reality, of course, I do make errors, and I'm not "always" doing it. Unlike some I could mention (hrmph!) when an error is pointed out I cheerfully acknowledge it, and thank the person who pointed it out. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm