From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: 1 Aug 2002 20:04:53 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 109 Message-ID: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1028232293 36885713 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91455 I just want to clear up some things that came to my mind during the recent discussion on 'Modernity evil to Tolkien'. I write this off-memory, without checking most of resources, so feel free to point out any mistakes or errors. 1) Walking Machines in BoLT 'Then on a time Melko assembled all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End.' There follows a description of many evil mechanisms used by Melko to assault Gondolin. First of all, we see that there were smiths _and_ sorcerers in use. So taking that passage meaning that Tolkien here condemns technology without saying he condemns magic also is a bit unfair. We should say that he either dislikes them both, or none at all. Secondly, the idea of walking machines goes back as far as the greek myths, to Hefaistos' 'golden maidens'. There is nothing modern about it. Thirdly, the Fall of Gondolin was written in years 1916-1920, after Tolkien's return from Great War. He fought at Somme. Could we wonder, then, that his idea of greatest evil was 'walking and flame-spewing machines'? Again, I believe this is not the case of anti-modernity, but simply being scared by modern warfare. From the fact that Tolkien was bit by a tarantula in his childhood, and used Spiders as powerful beings of evil in his books, should we assume that Tolkien had some kind of 'ideology' against spiders? No, he just didn't like them much. Fourthly, and this is only my assumption, I think Tolkien could've been if not inspired, then influenced by developing at the time pre-sci-fi literature. I don't recall what Tolkien said about Wells (I think he didn't like him, but not sure), but he didn't even have to read him, or even know of his existence (though he surely did), to be influenced by a suggestive vision of 'evil walking machines'. It was an image present in early XXth century's England's 'collective mind', and perhaps this also inspired him. Anyway, this is very early stuff, so even if Tolkien was anti-modernist at the time, he still had a lot of his life to think it over. 2) Tolkien and S-F We know that T. actually liked sci-fi literature. He enjoyed Lewis's 'Malakandra' trilogy, and he held Isaac Asimov in high regard. Now is that an attitude of a man who is against modernity and technology? I don't think so. 3) Use of technology by 'evil' races well, yes, that's the worst accusation against Tolkien. But does that mean that he is agains _all_ technology? Certainly not. He is against _destructive_ techology (aren't we all?) Do we see the evil forces using advanced medicine, crop-production, or any of that 'good modern' stuff? no. The 'healing magic' (athelas) is used by good folk. All the inventions like umbrellas, handkerchiefs, pen and paper etc. are used by the good folk. The Palantiri are made by the good folk, and only used by evil later. So it's not that bad. 4) Why was Middle-Earth set in Middle-Ages? The protagonists of 'evil modernity' theory say that it was because of Tolkien viewed Middle-Ages as some kind of utopian time. But this is not necessarily true. a) language Everything about Tolkien's mythology is about languages. It's all made to fit the languages. There is one thing that we may be sure Tolkien despised about 'modernity' in broad sense (ie. 'not Middle-Ages') : the Normans. The inflow of romanized, frenchy speach into pure old english anglo-saxon one. Tolkien referred to that period in very harsh words, though I don't recall any precise quotes (it's in the Letters somewhere, IIRC). So his 'perfect' language for the Brits to speak would be Old English. And what period of time is associated with OE? Of course, Middle-Ages. So, we put a story in the middle-ages. Is this anti-modernity? No, it's anti- normanity. What I'm trying to say is, if Tolkien had invented Klingon instead of Quenya, he would've written "Star Trek" instead of LotR. And we would discuss then 'Is Past Evil to Tolkien?' b) norse mythology and chivalry romances well, it's basicaly the same thing as above. Tolkien based his stories on medieval and pre-medieval mythologies and stories. It seems only natural to set his own stories in the same time-period, with the same tech level, and all. Furthermore, he wrote Lays, in an old metre, using old techniques and words. It's hard to imagine writing a "Lay of the Penicillin" or "Lay of the Railroad Building", written in old english verse, isn't it? The effect would be ridiculous. Again, the only thing 'modern' that Tolkien can be accused of being against, is modern poetry. c) the 'nature feeling' Setting of LotR and Silm is highly 'environmental'. Talking trees, birds, rivers that are controllable, etc. It's hard to do so in and equally 'industrialized' environment. These things just don't work out well. hmm...there was a lot more I wanted to say, but I seem to loose the inspiration. if you have something to add, please do. -- Pradera, self-proclaimed shogun of BC and surroundings www.pradera-castle.prv.pl /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 'In XXI century, ability to compose and perform simple and pleasant tunes was all but lost. Fortunately, it survived in several remote japanese villages, as secret art of J-Pop' Modern History of Music --- ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 00:55:11 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91484 Pradera wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >4) Why was Middle-Earth set in Middle-Ages? That's like asking "why is the Moon made of cheese?" -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: 2 Aug 2002 06:38:38 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 21 Message-ID: <925E59F88praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1028270318 36885713 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91452 Nasta? dzie? 02 sie 2002, gdy Stan Brown by? ?askaw napisa?: >>4) Why was Middle-Earth set in Middle-Ages? > >That's like asking "why is the Moon made of cheese?" > Oh dear, I didn't think anyone would pick on _that_. Make it 'quasi- medieval', then. I hoped everyone knows there's a big "" around it. -- Pradera, self-proclaimed shogun of BC and surroundings www.pradera-castle.prv.pl /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 'In XXI century, ability to compose and perform simple and pleasant tunes was all but lost. Fortunately, it survived in several remote japanese villages, as secret art of J-Pop' Modern History of Music --- ###### Message-ID: <3D4A54C4.4257CDF2@mfx.net> From: pmhilton@mfx.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 04:45:05 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-f7IujspcfDeszMR2KxCZ4guCfeO3YNMzHO+BFEAVf8dzhRHh42XgLMnxPnl/RJG4YkomkURI5IxidzZ!fBA86uW6xZeBhYI7Bzl/Q9xbRYOmnr4glhCkY2v1kWE9gPZGNtPnL1Q= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:45:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91502 Pradera wrote: > I just want to clear up some things that came to my mind during the recent > discussion on 'Modernity evil to Tolkien'. I write this off-memory, without > checking most of resources, so feel free to point out any mistakes or > errors. > mostly snipped Don't let the naysayers get in your way. That was a very thoughtful, illuminating and well-written post. So, despite having your head in the clouds & gold in your heart, your feet still touch the earth. So what? 'Twas ever thus. Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent -- Freedom is participation in power. Cicero ###### From: Josep Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: 2 Aug 2002 13:28:51 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-37-174-165.dialup.uni2.es (62.37.174.165) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1028294931 37387897 62.37.174.165 (16 [144250]) User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!62-37-174-165.dialup.uni2.ES!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91405 Nicely exposed, well argumented, and with a lot of thought put into it. Besides, it also matches my own view of Tolkien myths quite a lot. An enjoyable reading, and that is a lot in these times. Pep PD: I did not know that Tolkien liked Asimov. Another point for the Professor :-) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... From: "Jim Roberts-Miller" References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Organization: Right-Wing Gun Nuts from Texas Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 15:40:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.70.201.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1028302844 65.70.201.141 (Fri, 02 Aug 2002 15:40:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 15:40:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91396 "Speaker-to-Customers" wrote in news:aicdis$136cg4 $1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de: > > "Three trucks for the railwaymen under the sky, > Seven for the quarrymen in their halls of stone, > Nine for the cattle, doomed to die, > One for the Fat Controller, Sir Topham Hatt alone. > One engine to pull them all, one engine to find them, > One engine to bring them all and in the sidings put them. > In the land of Sodor where Tank Engines lie." You sir, owe me a new keyboard. The old one has tea all over it. Jim Roberts-Miller -- Texas A&M '89, '91 "Is there in Truth no Beauty?" "Of course, you do not have to go to the moon to find cold, dark, and inhospitable...conditions. Much of Canada will do." -- the Economist http://www.mindspring.com/~jammerjim/jimpg01.html ###### From: "Mika-Petri Lauronen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:37:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Oulun Puhelin Oyj - Baana Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <925E59F88praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: addr-213-139-163-240.suomi.net X-Trace: plaza.suomi.net 1028317062 29382 213.139.163.240 (2 Aug 2002 19:37:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mail.suomi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:37:42 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.suomi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91512 >>>4) Why was Middle-Earth set in Middle-Ages? >> Well, if it was set in Modern Age, it would be Modern-Earth, wouldn't it? :) -- -- Rauha, rakkaus, raparperi! -- Peace, love, vegetables! -- Mixu Lauronen, mplauron@paju.oulu.fi ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:37:50 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1028335138 20384 203.100.22.231 (3 Aug 2002 00:38:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 2002 00:38:58 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91527 In article , Jim Roberts-Miller (jammerjim@mindspring.com) says... > "Speaker-to-Customers" wrote in news:aicdis$136cg4 > $1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de: > > > > "Three trucks for the railwaymen under the sky, > > Seven for the quarrymen in their halls of stone, > > Nine for the cattle, doomed to die, > > One for the Fat Controller, Sir Topham Hatt alone. > > One engine to pull them all, one engine to find them, > > One engine to bring them all and in the sidings put them. > > In the land of Sodor where Tank Engines lie." > > > > You sir, owe me a new keyboard. The old one has tea all over it. > > We really ought to keep a keyboard tally around here, to see who causes the death of the most, and who owes who new ones. -- Donald Shepherd The closest I came to perfection was when I wrote my Resume. ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:38:30 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <925E59F88praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1028335178 20384 203.100.22.231 (3 Aug 2002 00:39:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 2002 00:39:38 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91528 In article , Morgil (morestelx@hotmail.com) says... > > Mika-Petri Lauronen kirjoitti viestissä ... > >>>>4) Why was Middle-Earth set in Middle-Ages? > >>> > >Well, if it was set in Modern Age, it would be Modern-Earth, wouldn't it? > >:) > > Can't argue with logic as i always says... I prefer "Can't argue with a large lump of wood" myself. -- Donald Shepherd The closest I came to perfection was when I wrote my Resume. ###### From: "ilya popov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.60.172.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1028347273 24.60.172.214 (Sat, 03 Aug 2002 04:01:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 04:01:13 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 04:01:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91517 "Donald Shepherd" wrote in message news:MPG.17b5c2d9cc380960989b92@mail.uq.edu.au... > In article , Jim > Roberts-Miller (jammerjim@mindspring.com) says... > > "Speaker-to-Customers" wrote in news:aicdis$136cg4 > > $1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de: > > > > > > "Three trucks for the railwaymen under the sky, > > > Seven for the quarrymen in their halls of stone, > > > Nine for the cattle, doomed to die, > > > One for the Fat Controller, Sir Topham Hatt alone. > > > One engine to pull them all, one engine to find them, > > > One engine to bring them all and in the sidings put them. > > > In the land of Sodor where Tank Engines lie." > > > > > > > > You sir, owe me a new keyboard. The old one has tea all over it. > > > > > > We really ought to keep a keyboard tally around here, to see who causes > the death of the most, and who owes who new ones. I've gone through three ergonomic keyboards in the span of two years. Do I win any kind of keyboard abuse award for this? - Ilya Popov ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:33:35 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: emc-203-100-22-231.resnet.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1028356485 24710 203.100.22.231 (3 Aug 2002 06:34:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 2002 06:34:45 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91524 In article , ilya popov (ilya@metalinker.com) says... > "Donald Shepherd" wrote in message > news:MPG.17b5c2d9cc380960989b92@mail.uq.edu.au... > > In article , Jim > > Roberts-Miller (jammerjim@mindspring.com) says... > > > "Speaker-to-Customers" wrote in news:aicdis$136cg4 > > > $1@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de: > > > > > > > > "Three trucks for the railwaymen under the sky, > > > > Seven for the quarrymen in their halls of stone, > > > > Nine for the cattle, doomed to die, > > > > One for the Fat Controller, Sir Topham Hatt alone. > > > > One engine to pull them all, one engine to find them, > > > > One engine to bring them all and in the sidings put them. > > > > In the land of Sodor where Tank Engines lie." > > > > > > > > > > > > You sir, owe me a new keyboard. The old one has tea all over it. > > > > > > > > > > We really ought to keep a keyboard tally around here, to see who causes > > the death of the most, and who owes who new ones. > > I've gone through three ergonomic keyboards in the span of two years. Do I > win any kind of keyboard abuse award for this? Depends what you've been doing with them I guess... -- Donald Shepherd The closest I came to perfection was when I wrote my Resume. ###### From: "Mika-Petri Lauronen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:12:08 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Oulun Puhelin Oyj - Baana Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <925E59F88praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: addr-213-139-177-39.suomi.net X-Trace: plaza.suomi.net 1028369528 27527 213.139.177.39 (3 Aug 2002 10:12:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mail.suomi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:12:08 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.song.fi!news.suomi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91526 Quoth the "Morgil" : >>-- Rauha, rakkaus, raparperi! >>-- Peace, love, vegetables! > > Why not "Peace, love, rhubarb"? > It was originally in English, so it would be "Rauha, rakkaus, vihannekset!" in Finnish. I changed the vegetables into raparperi, since that made the Finnish version more Kalevalalish... -- -- Rauha, rakkaus, raparperi! -- Peace, love, vegetables! -- Mixu Lauronen, mplauron@paju.oulu.fi ###### From: "ilya popov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.60.172.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1028446930 24.60.172.214 (Sun, 04 Aug 2002 07:42:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 07:42:10 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 07:42:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91563 "Donald Shepherd" wrote in message > > Depends what you've been doing with them I guess... Using them - I type a lot and very quickly. I don't know what I do to them that causes them to break down so easily. You'd think that fourty-dollar ergonomic keyboards would be more resiliant. - Ilya Popov ###### From: Brian Rauchfuss Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: 7 Aug 2002 20:42:13 GMT Organization: Master's of the Universe Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp0096-15.fm.intel.com User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.or.intel.com!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91964 pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) wrote in news:925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4: > 1) Walking Machines in BoLT > 'Then on a time Melko assembled all his most cunning smiths and > sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters such > as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the > Great End.' There follows a description of many evil mechanisms used > by Melko to assault Gondolin. > First of all, we see that there were smiths _and_ sorcerers in use. So > taking that passage meaning that Tolkien here condemns technology > without saying he condemns magic also is a bit unfair. We should say > that he either dislikes them both, or none at all. When Tolkien mentions sorcerers he always refers to evil people. I am not sure how he distinguished a sorcerer from, say, Galadriel or Feanor, but he clearly did so. Brian ###### From: JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net (JRStern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Message-ID: <3d51bde8.9655884@news.verizon.net> References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 00:39:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.120.211 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1028767168 4.62.120.211 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:39:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:39:28 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!490f3087!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91781 On 7 Aug 2002 20:42:13 GMT, Brian Rauchfuss wrote: >When Tolkien mentions sorcerers he always refers to evil people. I am >not sure how he distinguished a sorcerer from, say, Galadriel or Feanor, >but he clearly did so. "And you?" she said, turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?" J. ###### From: hayesstw@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:30:16 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3d523e9b.23255568@news.saix.net> References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Reply-To: hayesstw@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr54-01-p185.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp1.saix.net 1028809897 22394 155.239.184.185 (8 Aug 2002 12:31:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 2002 12:31:37 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.london1.eu.level3.net!level3eu!news.telebyte.nl!teleglobe.net!198.54.202.39.MISMATCH!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91710 On 1 Aug 2002 20:04:53 GMT, pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) wrote: >2) Tolkien and S-F > >We know that T. actually liked sci-fi literature. He enjoyed Lewis's >'Malakandra' trilogy, and he held Isaac Asimov in high regard. Now is that >an attitude of a man who is against modernity and technology? I don't think >so. > >3) Use of technology by 'evil' races > >well, yes, that's the worst accusation against Tolkien. But does that mean >that he is agains _all_ technology? Certainly not. He is against >_destructive_ techology (aren't we all?) Do we see the evil forces using >advanced medicine, crop-production, or any of that 'good modern' stuff? no. >The 'healing magic' (athelas) is used by good folk. All the inventions like >umbrellas, handkerchiefs, pen and paper etc. are used by the good folk. >The Palantiri are made by the good folk, and only used by evil later. So >it's not that bad. Modernity doesn't necessarily have much to do with the use of technology. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesstw@yahoo.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm ###### From: Brian Rauchfuss Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... Date: 8 Aug 2002 18:06:35 GMT Organization: Master's of the Universe Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <3d51bde8.9655884@news.verizon.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp0096-15.fm.intel.com User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!news.or.intel.com!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91960 JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net (JRStern) wrote in news:3d51bde8.9655884 @news.verizon.net: > On 7 Aug 2002 20:42:13 GMT, Brian Rauchfuss > wrote: >>When Tolkien mentions sorcerers he always refers to evil people. I am >>not sure how he distinguished a sorcerer from, say, Galadriel or Feanor, >>but he clearly did so. > > "And you?" she said, turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk > would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what > they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of > the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you > not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?" > > J. Yes, this passage is interesting in that Galadriel and the elves distinguished between what they did and what the enemy did, while hobbits and men considered it all "magic". This is probably related to the difference between a sorcerer (evil mage?) and the powerful of the elves. Brian ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <3d51bde8.9655884@news.verizon.net> Reply-To: spam@nospam.com.invalid Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:23:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91876 In article , Brian Rauchfuss wrote: > > Yes, this passage is interesting in that Galadriel and the elves > distinguished between what they did and what the enemy did, while > hobbits and men considered it all "magic". This is probably related > to the difference between a sorcerer (evil mage?) and the powerful > of the elves. We see so little spellcasting in the mythology (Luthien making her hair grow long and Gandalf's incantation in the Redhorn Pass are exceptions, of course). The one thing I've always found the most interesting about Tolkien's mythology is that what the Hobbits called "magic" was really much more organic. Figures like Sauron and Gandalf, and even Aragorn and Denethor had innate abilities, will and power, which seems to have been the source of most of what we see in LotR as "supernatural". -- AC Brought to you by Ed the Invisible Orange Iguana of Doom, Creator of the Universe. ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... (Longish) Lines: 232 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 Message-ID: <3d50fdb5$1@news.wineasy.se> Date: 7 Aug 2002 12:00:05 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1028718005 212.130.21.179 (7 Aug 2002 12:00:05 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@songnetworks.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.online.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news01.chello.se!amsnews01.chello.com!trev!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91690 Pradera enriched us with: > > I just want to clear up some things that came to my mind during > the recent discussion on 'Modernity evil to Tolkien'. I write > this off-memory, without checking most of resources, so feel free > to point out any mistakes or errors. I'll just follow in kind - commenting on your things where I feel to and adding my own. > 1) Walking Machines in BoLT and > 3) Use of technology by 'evil' races I haven't really got much to say about this. I feel that Tokien's fiction is perhaps not the best place to start (or for that matter continue) if you want to know what he felt / believed in as a man - his letters provide a far better starting point, and if you want to use his fiction, it should - IMO - be related to that starting point. > 2) Tolkien and S-F > > We know that T. actually liked sci-fi literature. He enjoyed > Lewis's 'Malakandra' trilogy, and he held Isaac Asimov in high > regard. Now is that an attitude of a man who is against modernity > and technology? I don't think so. I don't think this shows anything at all. I don't have to find the society presented in a book agreeable in order to like the book. Actually I find many of the societies Asimov presents truly scaring, but I still find him an excellent author. One of the things Tolkien _may_ have agreed with in Asimov's fiction is the Frankenstein- complex, which Asimov use. > 4) Why was Middle-Earth set in Middle-Ages? > > The protagonists of 'evil modernity' theory say that it was > because of Tolkien viewed Middle-Ages as some kind of utopian > time. But this is not necessarily true. This is probably the one point you make, which has been debated most, and I really have nothing to add. I agree with you that the choice of the technological level in Middle-earth was _not_ decided because of Tolkien's personal preferences regarding technology, but rather because the stories (myths) needed that setting. > hmm...there was a lot more I wanted to say, but I seem to loose > the inspiration. if you have something to add, please do. I'll do that. As I said above, I think that the best place to start an investigation into Tolkien's attitude towards modern life is his letters. I have searched /Letters/ for relevant quotes, which I have placed at the bottom of this post. The qoutes range in time of composition from 1943 to 1971 with the majority from the first 14 years of that period (1943 - 1956), but I think that the two quotes from 1971 will show that his position on these matters had not changed notably. My conclusion - maybe 'my understanding of Tolkien's statements' would be more correct - is that Tolkien was indeed in many ways a 'reactionary back number' as he calls himself (#53). He resented many aspects of what was to him modern life - especially aspects such as pollution, noise, mass-production (and the following uniformity), the destruction of places he loved (in particular the rural areas of the West-midlands) etc. I do _not_ believe that Tolkien was against progress in science, when understood purely as the knowledge of God's creation - what he resented in much technology was the _use_ of this knowledge - like e.g. the combustion engine, which he felt wasn't even put to rational uses (#64). In particular the machines - and of them the so-called labour-saving machines especially (#75)- received Tolkien's contempt, and I do indeed think that he saw these things as evil (#83, #96, #135 among others) - "Such is modern life. Mordor in our midst." (#135) tells us something about Tolkien's attitude, but also "If a Ragnarök would burn .... - and I'd go back to trees." (#83) shows a deep resentment towards at least some of the symptoms of modern life. I think that much of Tolkien's resentment stems from two items: From his perception that all this destroyed the tracts that he loved (#83, #135, #181, #328 and others), but also from his perception that the real motives behind the 'Machines' were power and domination (#131)(I haven't included #155 among the quotes for I should have included it all, which I didn't want to do, but it has much to say about the connection between power, magic and the Machine, which is relevant here even though it makes the connection by way of the Lord of the Rings). I give all the quotes (except for #155) below - more can easily be found to illumintate the point better, but I haven't really found anything to show that Tolkien embraced the modern life - or the machines in particular - without grievious critique. Letter #53 (1943), To Christopher (CJRT) "I wonder (if we survive this war) if there will be any niche, even of sufferance, left for reactionary back numbers like me (and you)." .... "But seriously: I do find this Americo-cosmopolitanism very terryfying. Quâ mind and spirit, and negleting the piddling fear of timid flesh which des not want to be shot or chopped by brutal and and licentious soldiery (German or other),...." Letter #64 (1944), To Christopher "How I wish the 'infernal combustion' engine had never been invented. Or (more difficult still since humanity and engineers in special are both nitwitted and malicious as a rule) that it could have been put to rational uses - if any." Letter #75 (1944), To CJRT "There is the tragedy and despair of all machinery lad bare. Unlike art which is content to create a new secondary world in the mind it attempts to actualize desire, and so to create power in this World; and that cannot really be done with any real satisfaction. Labour-saving machinery only creates endless and worse labour. And in addition to this fundamental disability of a creature, is added the Fall, which makes our devices not only fail of their desire but turn to new and horrible evil. So we come inevitably from Daedalus and Icarus to the Giant Bomber. It is not an advance in wisdom!" Letter #83 (1944), To CJRT "It is not the /not-man/ (e.g. weather) nor /man/ (even at a bad level), but the /man-made/ that is ultimately daunting and insupportable. If a ragnarök would burn all the slums and gas-works, and shabby garages, and long arc-lit suburbs, it cd. for me burn all the works of art - and I'd go back to trees." Letter #96 (1945), to CJRT "Of course, I suppose that, subject to the permission of God, the whole human race (as each individual) is free not to rise again but to go to perdition and carry out the Fall to its bitter bottom (as each individual can singulariter. And at certain periods, the present is notably one, that seems not only a likely event but imminent. Still I think there will be a 'millenium', the prophesied thousand-year rule of the Saints, i.e. those who have for all their imperfections never finally bowed heart and will to the world or the evil spirit (in modern but not universal terms: mechanism, 'scientific' materialism, Socialism in either of its factions now at war)." .... "Well the first War of the Machines seems to be drawing to its final inconclusive chapter - leaving, alas, everyone the poorer, many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and the only thing triumphant: the Machines. As the servants of the Machines are becoming a privileged class, the Machines are going to be enormously more powerful. What's their next move?" Letter #131 (1951) "With Mortality, especially as it affects art and the creative (or as I should say, sub-creative) desire which seems to have no biological function, and to be apart from the satisfactions of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife. This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it. It has vaious opportunities of 'Fall'. It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as øits own', the sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the the desire for Power, for making the will more quicly effective, - and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of development of the inherent powers or talents - or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognized." .... "But at Eregion great work began - and the Elves came their nearest to to falling to 'magic- and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made /Rings of Power/ ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods)." Letter #135 (1952), To Rayner Unwin "This charming house has become uninhabitable - unsleepable-in, unworkable-in, rocked, racked with noise, and drenched with fumes. Such is modern life. Mordor in our midst. And I regret to note that the billowing cloud recently pictured[1] did not mark the fall of Barad-dûr, but was produced by its allies - or at least by persons who have decided to use the Ring for their own (of course most excellent) purposes" [1] First English atom-bomb test 3 Oct. 1952 Letter #165 (1955) "I am (obviously) much in love with plants and above all trees, and always have been; and I find human maltreatment of them as hard to bear as some find ill-treatment of animals." Letter #181 (1956) "Though the spirit of 'Isengard', if not of Mordor, is of course always cropping up. The present design of destroying Oxford in order to accomodate motor-cars is a case." Letter #323 (1971) "But among other things, both M and I have been afflicted with what may be either a 'virus', or food-poisoning of which the risk is steadily mounting in this polluted country of which a growing proportion of the inhabitants are maniacs." Letter #328 (1971) "The horrors of the American scene I will pass over, though they have given me great distress and labour. (They arise in an entirely different mental climate and soil, polluted and impoverished to a degree only paralleled by the lunatic desctruction of the physical lands which Americans inhabit.)" (I cannot be sure that there is a connection with the view on 'Americo-cosmopolitanism' expressed in #53 from 1943 - its a span of almost 30 years, but being read together [and with Tolkien's view of mass-production in mind] they do seem to me to be connected.) -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++ -- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather) ###### From: sugrifin@yhti.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... (Longish) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:45:58 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3d513c31.57668071@news.yhti.net> References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <3d50fdb5$1@news.wineasy.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 266 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!mango.news.easynet.net!easynet.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91702 On 7 Aug 2002 12:00:05 +0100, "Troels Forchhammer" wrote: There are several passages in the old testament that talk of "witty inventions" in the context of evil mans' desire to have power over his environment through better technology. And the response is that they will utterly fail in the end, as God will not be mocked. Tolkien was on to this idea in his personal life.. Living in a time of great destruction in WWII, when then it seemed that man had gone mad with power and lust, brutalizing the very earth with its' machines of war and modernity, Tolkien was, I am sure thoroughly sick of it all to the point of spilling the utter hatred of the witty inventions over into his lifes' work. The ents having a complete victory at Isengard was his victory. The elves of the wood were his holy people.They were the ones who could interpret the earth and all her speech. They were the caretakers of it. They were the sojourners of middle earth and passing through, sometimes it seemed as if they weere in in a chilling and black nightmare. Tolkien had his revenge upon modernity through his works. He created a place that, if modern man would admit, is the real final rest that man is looking for.A place of inidustry with satisfaction, creativity that one sees completed, a pure healthy form of communityc freedom from the tyranny of the urgent, and fellowship not tainted with the tabooishness that fallen man brings to it. For he created a place for a moment, that was delivered from what is worst in ourselves-imitation of God for our own desires. Sue I have met the enemy, and it is me >Pradera enriched us with: >> >> I just want to clear up some things that came to my mind during >> the recent discussion on 'Modernity evil to Tolkien'. I write >> this off-memory, without checking most of resources, so feel free >> to point out any mistakes or errors. > >I'll just follow in kind - commenting on your things where I feel to >and adding my own. > >> 1) Walking Machines in BoLT >and >> 3) Use of technology by 'evil' races > >I haven't really got much to say about this. I feel that Tokien's >fiction is perhaps not the best place to start (or for that matter >continue) if you want to know what he felt / believed in as a >man - his letters provide a far better starting point, and if you >want to use his fiction, it should - IMO - be related to that >starting point. > >> 2) Tolkien and S-F >> >> We know that T. actually liked sci-fi literature. He enjoyed >> Lewis's 'Malakandra' trilogy, and he held Isaac Asimov in high >> regard. Now is that an attitude of a man who is against modernity >> and technology? I don't think so. > >I don't think this shows anything at all. I don't have to find the >society presented in a book agreeable in order to like the book. >Actually I find many of the societies Asimov presents truly scaring, >but I still find him an excellent author. One of the things Tolkien >_may_ have agreed with in Asimov's fiction is the Frankenstein- >complex, which Asimov use. > >> 4) Why was Middle-Earth set in Middle-Ages? >> >> The protagonists of 'evil modernity' theory say that it was >> because of Tolkien viewed Middle-Ages as some kind of utopian >> time. But this is not necessarily true. > >This is probably the one point you make, which has been debated >most, and I really have nothing to add. I agree with you that the >choice of the technological level in Middle-earth was _not_ decided >because of Tolkien's personal preferences regarding technology, but >rather because the stories (myths) needed that setting. > >> hmm...there was a lot more I wanted to say, but I seem to loose >> the inspiration. if you have something to add, please do. > >I'll do that. > >As I said above, I think that the best place to start an >investigation into Tolkien's attitude towards modern life is his >letters. I have searched /Letters/ for relevant quotes, which I >have placed at the bottom of this post. The qoutes range in time >of composition from 1943 to 1971 with the majority from the >first 14 years of that period (1943 - 1956), but I think that >the two quotes from 1971 will show that his position on these >matters had not changed notably. > > >My conclusion - maybe 'my understanding of Tolkien's statements' >would be more correct - is that Tolkien was indeed in many ways >a 'reactionary back number' as he calls himself (#53). He >resented many aspects of what was to him modern life - >especially aspects such as pollution, noise, mass-production >(and the following uniformity), the destruction of places he >loved (in particular the rural areas of the West-midlands) etc. > >I do _not_ believe that Tolkien was against progress in science, >when understood purely as the knowledge of God's creation - what >he resented in much technology was the _use_ of this knowledge - >like e.g. the combustion engine, which he felt wasn't even put >to rational uses (#64). In particular the machines - and of them >the so-called labour-saving machines especially (#75)- received >Tolkien's contempt, and I do indeed think that he saw these >things as evil (#83, #96, #135 among others) - "Such is modern >life. Mordor in our midst." (#135) tells us something about >Tolkien's attitude, but also "If a Ragnarök would burn .... - >and I'd go back to trees." (#83) shows a deep resentment >towards at least some of the symptoms of modern life. > >I think that much of Tolkien's resentment stems from two items: >From his perception that all this destroyed the tracts that he >loved (#83, #135, #181, #328 and others), but also from his >perception that the real motives behind the 'Machines' were >power and domination (#131)(I haven't included #155 among the >quotes for I should have included it all, which I didn't want >to do, but it has much to say about the connection between >power, magic and the Machine, which is relevant here even though >it makes the connection by way of the Lord of the Rings). > >I give all the quotes (except for #155) below - more can easily >be found to illumintate the point better, but I haven't really >found anything to show that Tolkien embraced the modern life - >or the machines in particular - without grievious critique. > > > >Letter #53 (1943), To Christopher (CJRT) >"I wonder (if we survive this war) if there will be any niche, >even of sufferance, left for reactionary back numbers like me >(and you)." >.... >"But seriously: I do find this Americo-cosmopolitanism very >terryfying. Quâ mind and spirit, and negleting the piddling fear >of timid flesh which des not want to be shot or chopped by >brutal and and licentious soldiery (German or other),...." > > >Letter #64 (1944), To Christopher >"How I wish the 'infernal combustion' engine had never been >invented. Or (more difficult still since humanity and engineers >in special are both nitwitted and malicious as a rule) that it >could have been put to rational uses - if any." > >Letter #75 (1944), To CJRT >"There is the tragedy and despair of all machinery lad bare. >Unlike art which is content to create a new secondary world in >the mind it attempts to actualize desire, and so to create power >in this World; and that cannot really be done with any real >satisfaction. Labour-saving machinery only creates endless and >worse labour. And in addition to this fundamental disability of >a creature, is added the Fall, which makes our devices not only >fail of their desire but turn to new and horrible evil. So we >come inevitably from Daedalus and Icarus to the Giant Bomber. It >is not an advance in wisdom!" > >Letter #83 (1944), To CJRT >"It is not the /not-man/ (e.g. weather) nor /man/ (even at a bad >level), but the /man-made/ that is ultimately daunting and >insupportable. If a ragnarök would burn all the slums and >gas-works, and shabby garages, and long arc-lit suburbs, it cd. >for me burn all the works of art - and I'd go back to trees." > > >Letter #96 (1945), to CJRT >"Of course, I suppose that, subject to the permission of God, >the whole human race (as each individual) is free not to rise >again but to go to perdition and carry out the Fall to its >bitter bottom (as each individual can singulariter. And at >certain periods, the present is notably one, that seems not only >a likely event but imminent. Still I think there will be a >'millenium', the prophesied thousand-year rule of the Saints, >i.e. those who have for all their imperfections never finally >bowed heart and will to the world or the evil spirit (in modern >but not universal terms: mechanism, 'scientific' materialism, >Socialism in either of its factions now at war)." >.... >"Well the first War of the Machines seems to be drawing to its >final inconclusive chapter - leaving, alas, everyone the poorer, >many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and the only thing >triumphant: the Machines. As the servants of the Machines are >becoming a privileged class, the Machines are going to be >enormously more powerful. What's their next move?" > >Letter #131 (1951) >"With Mortality, especially as it affects art and the creative >(or as I should say, sub-creative) desire which seems to have no >biological function, and to be apart from the satisfactions of >plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is >indeed usually at strife. This desire is at once wedded to a >passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with >the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it. It has vaious >opportunities of 'Fall'. It may become possessive, clinging to >the things made as øits own', the sub-creator wishes to be the >Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the >laws of the Creator especially against mortality. Both of these >(alone or together) will lead to the the desire for Power, for >making the will more quicly effective, - and so to the Machine >(or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or >devices (apparatus) instead of development of the inherent >powers or talents - or even the use of these talents with the >corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or >coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern >form though more closely related to Magic than is usually >recognized." >.... >"But at Eregion great work began - and the Elves came their >nearest to to falling to 'magic- and machinery. With the aid of >Sauron's lore they made /Rings of Power/ ('power' is an ominous >and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the >gods)." > >Letter #135 (1952), To Rayner Unwin >"This charming house has become uninhabitable - unsleepable-in, >unworkable-in, rocked, racked with noise, and drenched with >fumes. Such is modern life. Mordor in our midst. And I regret >to note that the billowing cloud recently pictured[1] did not >mark the fall of Barad-dûr, but was produced by its allies - or >at least by persons who have decided to use the Ring for their >own (of course most excellent) purposes" >[1] First English atom-bomb test 3 Oct. 1952 > >Letter #165 (1955) >"I am (obviously) much in love with plants and above all trees, >and always have been; and I find human maltreatment of them as >hard to bear as some find ill-treatment of animals." > >Letter #181 (1956) >"Though the spirit of 'Isengard', if not of Mordor, is of course >always cropping up. The present design of destroying Oxford in >order to accomodate motor-cars is a case." > >Letter #323 (1971) >"But among other things, both M and I have been afflicted with >what may be either a 'virus', or food-poisoning of which the >risk is steadily mounting in this polluted country of which a >growing proportion of the inhabitants are maniacs." > >Letter #328 (1971) >"The horrors of the American scene I will pass over, though they >have given me great distress and labour. (They arise in an >entirely different mental climate and soil, polluted and >impoverished to a degree only paralleled by the lunatic >desctruction of the physical lands which Americans inhabit.)" >(I cannot be sure that there is a connection with the view on >'Americo-cosmopolitanism' expressed in #53 from 1943 - its a >span of almost 30 years, but being read together [and with >Tolkien's view of mass-production in mind] they do seem to me to >be connected.) > >-- >Troels Forchhammer >Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk > >+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe >And Reboot +++ >-- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather) > > ###### From: Boris Badenov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why Middle-Ages? was: Modernity evil... (Longish) Date: 7 Aug 2002 11:54:16 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <925DEA55Fpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <3d50fdb5$1@news.wineasy.se> <3d513c31.57668071@news.yhti.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-161.newsdawg.com X-No-Archive: Yes X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.96 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91745 In article <3d513c31.57668071@news.yhti.net>, sugrifin@yhti.net says... > >On 7 Aug 2002 12:00:05 +0100, "Troels Forchhammer" > wrote: > >There are several passages in the old testament that talk of "witty >inventions" in the context of evil mans' desire to have power over his >environment through better technology. A cite or two would be very useful. TIA __________