Lines: 57 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: smgcfam@aol.com (SMGCFAM) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 28 Jul 2002 14:18:56 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Mortality and Immortality Message-ID: <20020728101856.05694.00001407@mb-me.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91242 I had this thought: In JRRT's world the Elves are immortal and Men are mortal. These characteristics are dooms or fates that are not always understood by those who have them. As men we know the fear of death that Tolkien's Men have. Tolkien (I believe) says somewhere that men tell fairytales whose end is deathlessness (They lived happily ever after?) while Elves tell mortal tales whose end is an escape from deathlessness. Immortality is at first sight quite attractive--we escape from the necessity of crossing over to that "undiscovered country" about which we really know nothing except what we choose to let faith teach us. We have no empirical knowledge of it. Perhaps it is a crossing just to oblivion. There is a sadness in man's mortality--to leave the good and fair earth, the quotidian-like, comforting rounds of the seasons, each with its unique celebrations, our beloved friends, family, the whole landscape of those things which have brought us joy, never (we think) to see them again--or to have someone dear leave us--a father, a brother, a lover, a friend--to have his or her company torn from us is a poignant grief. But there is a sadness in Elven immortality also--these noble people are doomed to witness the whole sorry history of the world, the fair times growing more grey and evil until the eventual return of Morgoth from the outer dark. They witness and feel acutely the wounds and the loss the world suffers during the long, overlong duration of time until at the End, even for the Valar, each moment will become a weariness. So, like us, the Elves are a sad, tragic people. Man, because he is mortal, escapes the long term hurtful changes that the Elves must witness and endure. This seems to be the case, except in times of great upheavel, when the order of pre-industrial civilization had a more static quality, when the long life of a mortal man had more of a rural timelessness and changelessness than it does today. Although men died, an individual had a good chance of escaping by and large the grief of witnessing the inevitable but slow change that the Elves were doomed to in their thousands of years. But, since the industrial revolution 200 years ago, that is no longer the case and what might have changed in the course of several generations now does so in one or less. We live in a time of constant upheaval that our ancestors only knew intermittently in the past. And because we live in an increasingly shrinking world with modern communication and access to information there is no way we can run away from it. Years ago, my grandfather said that if he had gone to sleep as a young man (the 1890's) and awoke again as an old man (the 1960's), over 60 years later, he would not have recognized very much. I could probably say the same about the last 30 years--half the time. So these days, Men take on the burden of their original Doom of mortality as well as the Doom of of the Elves and are witness to the grevious changes our industrial age has wrought upon the earth--scarring it deeply, poisoning its waters. levelling the forests, overwhelming the distinctive communities with urban sprawl and a homogenized commericalism. The Whole Sorry History of the World plays itself out rapidly before our mortal eyes before they are shut forever to the continuing tragedy and we seek alone, over the low stone wall, the undiscovered country. In so short a time we have lost the security of our mortality. Alas the willows, alas ourselves. ###### Message-ID: <3D441E86.74DA9281@worldnet.att.net> From: "Dennis L. McKiernan" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mortality and Immortality References: <20020728101856.05694.00001407@mb-me.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 74 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:40:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.83.100.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1027874416 12.83.100.77 (Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:40:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:40:16 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91241 By God, that was well written. ---Dennis SMGCFAM wrote: > > I had this thought: > > In JRRT's world the Elves are immortal and Men are mortal. These > characteristics are dooms or fates that are not always understood by those who > have them. As men we know the fear of death that Tolkien's Men have. Tolkien > (I believe) says somewhere that men tell fairytales whose end is deathlessness > (They lived happily ever after?) while Elves tell mortal tales whose end is an > escape from deathlessness. > > Immortality is at first sight quite attractive--we escape from the necessity of > crossing over to that "undiscovered country" about which we really know nothing > except what we choose to let faith teach us. We have no empirical knowledge of > it. Perhaps it is a crossing just to oblivion. There is a sadness in man's > mortality--to leave the good and fair earth, the quotidian-like, comforting > rounds of the seasons, each with its unique celebrations, our beloved friends, > family, the whole landscape of those things which have brought us joy, never > (we think) to see them again--or to have someone dear leave us--a father, a > brother, a lover, a friend--to have his or her company torn from us is a > poignant grief. > > But there is a sadness in Elven immortality also--these noble people are doomed > to witness the whole sorry history of the world, the fair times growing more > grey and evil until the eventual return of Morgoth from the outer dark. They > witness and feel acutely the wounds and the loss the world suffers during the > long, overlong duration of time until at the End, even for the Valar, each > moment will become a weariness. So, like us, the Elves are a sad, tragic > people. > > Man, because he is mortal, escapes the long term hurtful changes that the Elves > must witness and endure. This seems to be the case, except in times of great > upheavel, when the order of pre-industrial civilization had a more static > quality, when the long life of a mortal man had more of a rural timelessness > and changelessness than it does today. Although men died, an individual had a > good chance of escaping by and large the grief of witnessing the inevitable but > slow change that the Elves were doomed to in their thousands of years. > > But, since the industrial revolution 200 years ago, that is no longer the case > and what might have changed in the course of several generations now does so in > one or less. We live in a time of constant upheaval that our ancestors only > knew intermittently in the past. And because we live in an increasingly > shrinking world with modern communication and access to information there is no > way we can run away from it. > > Years ago, my grandfather said that if he had gone to sleep as a young man (the > 1890's) and awoke again as an old man (the 1960's), over 60 years later, he > would not have recognized very much. I could probably say the same about the > last 30 years--half the time. > > So these days, Men take on the burden of their original Doom of mortality as > well as the Doom of of the Elves and are witness to the grevious changes our > industrial age has wrought upon the earth--scarring it deeply, poisoning its > waters. levelling the forests, overwhelming the distinctive communities with > urban sprawl and a homogenized commericalism. The Whole Sorry History of the > World plays itself out rapidly before our mortal eyes before they are shut > forever to the continuing tragedy and we seek alone, over the low stone wall, > the undiscovered country. In so short a time we have lost the security of our > mortality. Alas the willows, alas ourselves. -- Dennis L. McKiernan ~ http://home.att.net/~dlmck Latest: _Once Upon a Winter's Night_ (a fairy tale; pb) _Dragondoom_ (the "lost" Mithgar novel; reprint pb) Recent: _Once Upon a Winter's Night_ (a fairy tale; hc) _The Silver Call_ (omnibus pb) Others: _Silver Wolf, Black Falcon_ (hc & pb) _The Iron Tower_ (omnibus pb) Recent manuscript: a mainstream work Working on: _Tales of Mithgar II: Red Slippers_ ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mortality and Immortality Date: 28 Jul 2002 16:56:26 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9259CE5B9praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <20020728101856.05694.00001407@mb-me.aol.com> <3D441E86.74DA9281@worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1027875386 33822431 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91246 Nasta? dzie? 28 lip 2002, gdy Dennis L. McKiernan by? ?askaw napisa?: > >By God, that was well written. > ---Dennis > By God, learn to snip. -- Pradera, self-proclaimed shogun of BC and surroundings www.pradera-castle.prv.pl /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 'In XXI century, ability to compose and perform simple and pleasant tunes was all but lost. Fortunately, it survived in several remote japanese villages, as secret art of J-Pop' Modern History of Music --- ###### Message-ID: <3D444DAC.AECE7F65@mfx.net> From: pmhilton@mfx.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mortality and Immortality References: <20020728101856.05694.00001407@mb-me.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 15:01:18 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-0U5xeilqoOmTuYSJreMHuhy7pOWn13pKY6uplHwCPcR8/oqQTVooouxpTSkleIcv2v4oaobTj2v3VDe!kJ0gFZJynsNFjmXdL1sAjnQvNkG6BjhZe60wIwq1MDyu+2plVR4Xr6w= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:01:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.newshosting.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91276 SMGCFAM wrote: > I had this thought: > > In JRRT's world the Elves are immortal and Men are mortal. These > characteristics are dooms or fates that are not always understood by those who > have them. Yes, a snip. And yes, the original piece was well written. But Nothing lasts forever, not even forever. Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent -- Freedom is participation in power. Cicero ###### Lines: 19 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: smgcfam@aol.com (SMGCFAM) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 31 Jul 2002 01:43:43 GMT References: <3D444DAC.AECE7F65@mfx.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Mortality and Immortality Message-ID: <20020730214343.20324.00000436@mb-fd.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91362 >But >Nothing lasts forever, not even forever. A quote from Belloc's essay, "At the Sign of the Lion": ...and I too would rather come to this inn, than to any house in England; because I am certain of entry, and because I know what I shall find, and because what I shall find is what any man of this country should find, if the soul of it is not to disapear." When I open the "Lord of the Rings" I know I will find Theoden telling Aragorn at Helm's Deep that he will not be taken like an old badger in a trap, but come morning he will mount Snowmane and ride out with his household and cut a road and either escape or make such an end as will be worth a song--if any be left to sing it. But these pages and the pages of all the millions of copies of LOTR will yellow and will, like the willows, The Marx brothers, and my fine father, fade and disapear. This is a sweet sadness, but not a misery. ###### Lines: 12 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 31 Jul 2002 04:06:27 GMT References: <20020730214343.20324.00000436@mb-fd.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Mortality and Immortality Message-ID: <20020731000627.26719.00000466@mb-fh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.71.34.15!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:91365 >But these pages and the pages of all the millions of copies of LOTR will >yellow >and will, like the willows, The Marx brothers, and my fine father, fade and >disappear. This is a sweet sadness, but not a misery. Yeah that's it. The length of the shadow it casts is fine, you're learning. Pretty soon my stuff will be indistinguishable, and only the frames, the bones will reside in your memory, until the time of the bones. 20 seconds.