From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Mrs Durin Lines: 8 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.76.144 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1025533082 213.101.76.144 (Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:18:02 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:18:02 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-76-144.swipnet.se Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:18:39 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89784 Of the Seven Fathers of the Dawrves, six woke up in the company of a wife. Durin, however, woke up alone and later married a female belonging to one of the other six Houses of Dwarves. Is there any more information about that? Presumably it was a daugher of one of the six couples, but which? Öjevind ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (morgan mair fheal) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 08:22:18 -0700 Organization: tos coyote Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c18.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89791 In article , "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Of the Seven Fathers of the Dawrves, six woke up in the company of a wife. > Durin, however, woke up alone and later married a female belonging to one of > the other six Houses of Dwarves. Is there any more information about that? > Presumably it was a daugher of one of the six couples, but which? he was a self made man ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: 1 Jul 2002 17:59:09 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 25 Message-ID: <923EC1A17praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1025546349 16564504 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89773 Nastal dzien 01 lip 2002, gdy Öjevind Llng byl laskaw napisac: >Of the Seven Fathers of the Dawrves, six woke up in the company of a >wife. Durin, however, woke up alone and later married a female belonging >to one of the other six Houses of Dwarves. Is there any more information >about that? Presumably it was a daugher of one of the six couples, but >which? > > You have many questions today, master Ojevind :) Wasn't this a widow of one of the others? I vaguely recall something like that... -- Pradera If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today He'd be gunned down cold by the C.I.A. Matt Johnson --- ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 36 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1025569778 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 01 Jul 2002 19:29:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 19:29:38 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: St6U8-53145-V4-34974@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 0a947ae5 aef8d670 061f5acd 1c344206 46bac914 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:29:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89823 Quoth "Öjevind Lång" in article : > Of the Seven Fathers of the Dawrves, six woke up in the company of a > wife. Durin, however, woke up alone and later married a female > belonging to one of the other six Houses of Dwarves. Is there any > more information about that? Presumably it was a daugher of one of > the six couples, but which? I don't recall ever seeing more information on Mrs. Durin. However, I actually suspect that he _didn't_ marry a daughter of another original couple, but rather some later descendent. Why? I'm not convinced that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves knew where to find each other when they first awoke. If they all awoke in widely scattered lands, it seems that they may have just done the best they could on their own until they happened to encounter members of each others' "tribes". If that were the case, then it seems unlikely that Durin would have met any eligible Dwarven women until either 1) other tribes sent out explorers that eventually found him, or 2) he heard about other tribes from passing Elves. (I figure the odds of him randomly stumbling across one of six existing pairs/small families of Dwarves by chance to be pretty low... particularly as he seems to have been the only Father to have awakened in the Misty Mountains.) This raises all sorts of nasty questions about inbreeding, but those are inevitable anyway. With just seven pairs to start from, inbreeding would probably be inevitable. Moreover, the seven families of Dwarves seem to have retained very distinct identities. While there was certainly _some_ interbreeding (in the case of Durin at least!), it would be very difficult to maintain separate family identities (or, for that matter, monogamous marriages) while trying to establish a non-inbred population from such a limited gene pool. Anyone know anything about Dwarves' feelings on mating with their siblings? :) (They _were_ awfully low on women...) Steuard Jensen ###### From: the_real_orius@hotmail.com (David Sulger) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: 1 Jul 2002 19:56:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3ac4908.0207011856.6b6a2279@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.146.71.84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1025578609 389 127.0.0.1 (2 Jul 2002 02:56:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2002 02:56:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89832 "?evind L?g" wrote in message news:... > Of the Seven Fathers of the Dawrves, six woke up in the company of a wife. > Durin, however, woke up alone and later married a female belonging to one of > the other six Houses of Dwarves. Is there any more information about that? > Presumably it was a daugher of one of the six couples, but which? Eh? Where have you been Ojevind? I thought there was a whole crackpot theory based on this subject. :) ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.76.97 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1025859818 213.101.76.97 (Fri, 05 Jul 2002 11:03:38 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 11:03:38 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-76-97.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:04:17 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90006 "Steuard Jensen" wrote: [snip] > This raises all sorts of nasty questions about inbreeding, but those > are inevitable anyway. With just seven pairs to start from, > inbreeding would probably be inevitable. Moreover, the seven families > of Dwarves seem to have retained very distinct identities. While > there was certainly _some_ interbreeding (in the case of Durin at > least!), it would be very difficult to maintain separate family > identities (or, for that matter, monogamous marriages) while trying to > establish a non-inbred population from such a limited gene pool. > > Anyone know anything about Dwarves' feelings on mating with their > siblings? :) (They _were_ awfully low on women...) I am certain that Tolkien, with his strict Catholic views, would have found the thought of sibling-marriages abhorrent. After all, he even seems to have regarded marriages between cousins as rather incestuous, though with regard to the Dwarves I daresay he would have been forced to acknowledge them. I am certain that if he had ever given the matter thought, he would have made male Dwarves who needed a spouse simply make long wanderings, looking for mountains that looked like suitable homes for other Dwarves, until they hit the jackpot. Another venue would be to ask humans and Elevs one did business with until you heard news of other Dwarves. No doubt they then spread the news of all settlements they found to all other settlements. As for poor Durin, he either dwelt alone for a long time or asked around; he must have traded with people who might have heard of other Dwarves. Once the second generation plus Durin) had found a wife, I have no doubt there was a considerable amount of inbreeding, resulting in the physical distinctiveness between Dwarf tribes you mention. Though obviously, the Dwarves kept in touch with each other; we are informed that the other six Houses sent armies to help Durin's folk get their revenge on the Orcs of the Misty Mountains for the killing of Thrór. Öjevind ###### From: hsuwh@hotmail.com (Banazir the Jedi Hobbit) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: 5 Jul 2002 23:12:31 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 45 Message-ID: <91a1d472.0207052212.148dee9@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.155.36.150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1025935952 20215 127.0.0.1 (6 Jul 2002 06:12:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2002 06:12:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90292 "Ojevind Lang" wrote in message news:... > "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > [snip] > >> This raises all sorts of nasty questions about inbreeding... >> [snip-o-bama] > > I am certain that Tolkien, with his strict Catholic views, would have found > the thought of sibling-marriages abhorrent. After all, he even seems to have > regarded marriages between cousins as rather incestuous, though with regard > to the Dwarves I daresay he would have been forced to acknowledge them. I concur, though AFAIK he was referring only to Eldar and Edain custom and taboo. > I am certain that if he had ever given the matter thought, he would have made > male Dwarves who needed a spouse simply make long wanderings, looking for > mountains that looked like suitable homes for other Dwarves, until they hit > the jackpot. Another venue would be to ask humans and Elevs one did business > with until you heard news of other Dwarves. No doubt they then spread the > news of all settlements they found to all other settlements. As for poor > Durin, he either dwelt alone for a long time or asked around; he must have > traded with people who might have heard of other Dwarves. Gimli's song before the Mirrormere certainly places his advent early enough that he would have had plenty of time. > Once the second generation plus Durin) had found a wife, I have no doubt > there was a considerable amount of inbreeding, resulting in the physical > distinctiveness between Dwarf tribes you mention. Though obviously, the > Dwarves kept in touch with each other; we are informed that the other six > Houses sent armies to help Durin's folk get their revenge on the Orcs of the > Misty Mountains for the killing of Thrór. Aside from a touch of hemophilia (which would doubtless be a bit of a problem for tough-living Dwarven royalty), I don't see too much problem with the limited genetic diversity. Six couples (provided large numbers of children were INITIALLY the norm and the clans fully intermarried at the beginning instead of immediately dividing into Longbeard, etc.) should have been enough. Is there anything to support or refute these conditions? -- Banazir ###### From: Matthew T Curtis Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:51:51 +0100 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <91a1d472.0207052212.148dee9@posting.google.com> Reply-To: littlebleeder@dsl.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: usercg048.dsl.pipex.com (62.190.238.48) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1025977919 20563872 62.190.238.48 (16 [135245]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.it.ip-plus.net!news.it.ip-plus.net!news.it.colt.net!itgate.net!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!usercg048.dsl.pipex.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90326 On 5 Jul 2002 23:12:31 -0700, hsuwh@hotmail.com (Banazir the Jedi Hobbit) wrote: >Aside from a touch of hemophilia (which would doubtless be a bit of a >problem for tough-living Dwarven royalty), I don't see too much >problem with the limited genetic diversity. As I posted in my message of January 31 this year , haemophilia is not recessive and is not caused by inbreeding. -- Matthew T Curtis littlebleeder[at]dsl.pipex.com HIV+ for 21 glorious years! Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture, I am still confused. But on a higher level. - Enrico Fermi ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 16:27:12 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: softrat@pobox.com References: <91a1d472.0207052212.148dee9@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90334 On 5 Jul 2002 23:12:31 -0700, hsuwh@hotmail.com (Banazir the Jedi Hobbit) wrote: >"Ojevind Lang" wrote in message news:... >> "Steuard Jensen" wrote: >> >> I am certain that Tolkien, with his strict Catholic views, would have found >> the thought of sibling-marriages abhorrent. After all, he even seems to have >> regarded marriages between cousins as rather incestuous, though with regard >> to the Dwarves I daresay he would have been forced to acknowledge them. > >I concur, though AFAIK he was referring only to Eldar and Edain custom >and taboo. > You're being silly guys! Remember the offspring of Adam and Eve? Where did *they* get wives? This situation is very, very similar. And by a devoted Christian, too! (Hint: It's in the Bible.) the softrat "He who rubs owls" the Zulu Princess mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished! ###### Lines: 35 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Jul 2002 00:19:09 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Message-ID: <20020706201909.01634.00002996@mb-ca.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90186 >You're being silly guys! Remember the offspring of Adam and Eve? Where >did *they* get wives? This situation is very, very similar. And by a >devoted Christian, too! > >(Hint: It's in the Bible.) There were several literals for the metaphor of the Garden of Eden; meaning, several tribes of Adam son of God, and Eve, son of Adam. They traded Adams and Eves and sons intertribally, over an unspecified length of time. Then, the Apple and the Worm, metaphors for the stories of civilization and philosophy and everything that goes with it, clothing and tools and sin being evidence of digestion. At least that's how I see it. How did the tribes breed, if each was born from a different species of monkey? [I surmise one species of vole, actually] Saurus sapiens is a convenient answer. Ewan ko [I don't know], that's pure conjecture. L'Engle suggests communal intelligence on a microscopic level. Then why would they need to hide, other than producing us? We should then be able to teach bacteria to line themselves up in a petry dish saying, "Help!" We cannot. I think all the great apes can interbreed, if they tried really hard enough. Mebbe it's true that there's a single Eohippus proto-hominid, that diverged much the same way the horse family diverged; the stereotypical goombah. Then how did it travel? It probably was the size of a very small great ape, liked to sit on floating logs or something, or walk long long distances. Yet it makes more sense to me that several proto-hominids evolved in parallel and bred together, whether on the vole level or somewhere down the line. Dunno why. We can look at mules. What if a lot of mules got together and somehow a pair could breed? But donkeys and horses are from Eohippus. I don't know. Go ask an anthropologist. ###### From: "Jeffrey Boydstun" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <91a1d472.0207052212.148dee9@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.82.128 X-Complaints-To: abuse@starband.net X-Trace: twister1.starband.net 1026070190 148.63.82.128 (Sun, 07 Jul 2002 15:29:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 15:29:28 EDT Organization: Starband Communications Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 19:29:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.starband.net!twister1.starband.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90294 "the softrat" wrote in message news:p2veiuka4boqadbibuba2jq5qm2aq4gk6i@4ax.com... > On 5 Jul 2002 23:12:31 -0700, hsuwh@hotmail.com (Banazir the Jedi > Hobbit) wrote: > > >"Ojevind Lang" wrote in message news:... > >> "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > >> > >> I am certain that Tolkien, with his strict Catholic views, would have found > >> the thought of sibling-marriages abhorrent. After all, he even seems to have > >> regarded marriages between cousins as rather incestuous, though with regard > >> to the Dwarves I daresay he would have been forced to acknowledge them. > > > >I concur, though AFAIK he was referring only to Eldar and Edain custom > >and taboo. > > > You're being silly guys! Remember the offspring of Adam and Eve? Where > did *they* get wives? This situation is very, very similar. And by a > devoted Christian, too! > > (Hint: It's in the Bible.) The gene pool was perfect then. No defects. Of course, you could argue that Aulë made *his* dwarves with perfect genetics too... -- It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations. -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit Never laugh at live dragons. -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit May the stars of Varda shine over you, may Manwë blow sweet winds toward you, and may the trees of Yavanna long shelter you. May Lórien and Estë send you dreams that are sweet, and may Mandos long bar you from his Halls (which are the Halls of death) ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: 7 Jul 2002 20:13:35 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9244E85A2praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <91a1d472.0207052212.148dee9@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1026072815 21181738 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90223 Nasta? dzie? 07 lip 2002, gdy Jeffrey Boydstun by? ?askaw napisa?: >> You're being silly guys! Remember the offspring of Adam and Eve? Where >> did *they* get wives? This situation is very, very similar. And by a >> devoted Christian, too! >> >> (Hint: It's in the Bible.) > >The gene pool was perfect then. No defects. Of course, you could argue >that Aulë made *his* dwarves with perfect genetics too... > > Well, I don't think he'd 'program' any genetic diseases into his creation. It makes sense, actually - otherwise, with this rate of inbreeding and sharing mates, all dwarves would by the end of III age be in very bad condition.. -- Pradera 'Of course Sauron has a physical form. He's got a Mouth, hasn't he?' --- ###### From: no.spam@thereisnoy.com (Mia Kalogjera) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 22:01:58 GMT Organization: freelancer Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3d28ba15.5315154@news.tel.hr> References: <91a1d472.0207052212.148dee9@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ar2-m79.net.hinet.hr X-Trace: as201.hinet.hr 1026078349 24362 195.29.65.79 (7 Jul 2002 21:45:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hinet.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:45:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!news-hub.siol.net!news1.hinet.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90136 Once upon a time, more precisely on Sun, 07 Jul 2002 19:29:28 GMT, "Jeffrey Boydstun" decided to release into cyberspace: >> You're being silly guys! Remember the offspring of Adam and Eve? Where >> did *they* get wives? This situation is very, very similar. And by a >> devoted Christian, too! >> >> (Hint: It's in the Bible.) > >The gene pool was perfect then. What does that mean? That they were hermaphrodites, or wot? Puzzled, Mia -- www.thereisnoy.com www.theonering.net [to mail, remove spam] ###### From: "Jeffrey Boydstun" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <91a1d472.0207052212.148dee9@posting.google.com> <3d28ba15.5315154@news.tel.hr> Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.82.128 X-Complaints-To: abuse@starband.net X-Trace: twister1.starband.net 1026089038 148.63.82.128 (Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:43:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:43:36 EDT Organization: Starband Communications Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 00:43:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.starband.net!twister1.starband.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90310 "Mia Kalogjera" wrote in message news:3d28ba15.5315154@news.tel.hr... > Once upon a time, more precisely on Sun, 07 Jul 2002 > 19:29:28 GMT, "Jeffrey Boydstun" > decided to release into > cyberspace: > > >> You're being silly guys! Remember the offspring of Adam and Eve? Where > >> did *they* get wives? This situation is very, very similar. And by a > >> devoted Christian, too! > >> > >> (Hint: It's in the Bible.) > > > >The gene pool was perfect then. > > What does that mean? That they were hermaphrodites, or wot? It means that there were no defects in the genetics. No recessive genes coding for blindness, no hemophilia, and so on. So inbreeding wasn't much of a problem. -- It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations. -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit Never laugh at live dragons. -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit May the stars of Varda shine over you, may Manwë blow sweet winds toward you, and may the trees of Yavanna long shelter you. May Lórien and Estë send you dreams that are sweet, and may Mandos long bar you from his Halls (which are the Halls of death) ###### From: Matthew T Curtis Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 08:11:45 +0100 Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <91a1d472.0207052212.148dee9@posting.google.com> <3d28ba15.5315154@news.tel.hr> Reply-To: littlebleeder@dsl.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: usercg048.dsl.pipex.com (62.190.238.48) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1026112317 21312319 62.190.238.48 (16 [135245]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!usercg048.dsl.pipex.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90135 On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 00:43:36 GMT, "Jeffrey Boydstun" wrote: >It means that there were no defects in the genetics. No recessive genes >coding for blindness, no hemophilia, and so on. So inbreeding wasn't much >of a problem. Once again haemophilia is not caused by recessive genes and is not a result of inbreeding. See . -- Matthew T Curtis littlebleeder[at]dsl.pipex.com HIV+ for 21 glorious years! Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture, I am still confused. But on a higher level. - Enrico Fermi ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Mrs Durin Date: 8 Jul 2002 12:22:47 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <91a1d472.0207052212.148dee9@posting.google.com> <3d28ba15.5315154@news.tel.hr> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1026130967 12660 128.214.205.14 (8 Jul 2002 12:22:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jul 2002 12:22:47 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:90254 In alt.fan.tolkien Matthew T Curtis wrote: > On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 00:43:36 GMT, "Jeffrey Boydstun" > wrote: >>It means that there were no defects in the genetics. No recessive genes >>coding for blindness, no hemophilia, and so on. So inbreeding wasn't much >>of a problem. > Once again haemophilia is not caused by recessive genes Of course it is. Even when it's in X chromosome it is still a recessive trait: that's why females rarely get the worst forms. > and is not a > result of inbreeding. In females it is. You need two 'sick' alleles to get the disease, one from the father, one from the mother. > See > . > -- > Matthew T Curtis littlebleeder[at]dsl.pipex.com > HIV+ for 21 glorious years! > Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having > listened to your lecture, I am still confused. But on a > higher level. - Enrico Fermi --