Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: "Not half through yet" X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 37 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1024024838 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:20:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:20:38 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: aidO8-18081-U4-13388@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 5164a3d2 45703370 41059d62 31168a00 50ecf3e1 Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:20:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88995 I've just (re)read the scene in "Many Meetings" where Gandalf looks closely at Frodo as he is recovering from the Morgul-knife. We read that to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it were of transparency, about him... "Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." When I read this, it occurred to me that I wasn't sure what exactly Gandalf meant. In particular, when Gandalf says, "He is not half through yet," what is he thinking of? I think I've assumed he was thinking of the quest, but I find it a bit surprising that Gandalf is so certain that Frodo will continue as Ringbearer in the next stage. If not the quest, though, what else could he mean? It would seem quite odd for this to refer to the progress of Frodo's recovery from the Morgul-knife. In either case, what does Gandalf have in mind as the cause of Frodo's eventual "glassiness"? Just the knife, or the combined effect of future adventures as yet unknown? A couple more thoughts on the possibility that Gandalf was referring to Frodo's longer quest. If Gandalf _was_ confident that Frodo would remain Ringbearer, does that have any implications about Frodo's freedom to choose at the Council? Did Gandalf have any sort of backup plan there, in case Frodo didn't speak up? And how honest, then, was Elrond's rhetorical question about the importance of hobbits, "Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it?" (I have a mental image of Gandalf and Elrond plotting together ahead of time, coming up with ways to prod or shame Frodo into "volunteering" at the crucial time. :) ). At any rate, I'm interested to know what other peoples' impressions of that passage have been. Steuard Jensen ###### From: kueikutzu@-remove-hotmail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Not half through yet" Organization: Cryptic Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:26:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.88.91.105 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1024025192 12.88.91.105 (Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:26:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:26:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89014 On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:20:38 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >I've just (re)read the scene in "Many Meetings" where Gandalf looks >closely at Frodo as he is recovering from the Morgul-knife. We read >that > > to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it > were of transparency, about him... > > "Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not > half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even > Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a > glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." > >When I read this, it occurred to me that I wasn't sure what exactly >Gandalf meant. In particular, when Gandalf says, "He is not half >through yet," what is he thinking of? I think I've assumed he was >thinking of the quest, but I find it a bit surprising that Gandalf is >so certain that Frodo will continue as Ringbearer in the next stage. >If not the quest, though, what else could he mean? It would seem >quite odd for this to refer to the progress of Frodo's recovery from >the Morgul-knife. In either case, what does Gandalf have in mind as >the cause of Frodo's eventual "glassiness"? Just the knife, or the >combined effect of future adventures as yet unknown? > >A couple more thoughts on the possibility that Gandalf was referring >to Frodo's longer quest. If Gandalf _was_ confident that Frodo would >remain Ringbearer, does that have any implications about Frodo's >freedom to choose at the Council? Did Gandalf have any sort of backup >plan there, in case Frodo didn't speak up? And how honest, then, was >Elrond's rhetorical question about the importance of hobbits, "Who of >all the Wise could have foreseen it?" (I have a mental image of >Gandalf and Elrond plotting together ahead of time, coming up with >ways to prod or shame Frodo into "volunteering" at the crucial >time. :) ). > >At any rate, I'm interested to know what other peoples' impressions of >that passage have been. > Steuard Jensen I thought it was a folksy rhetorical trope "Damn, we're out of beer and the night's not half over yet". The actual duration or amount left doesn't matter, simply that there is more to come than we have already seen. -- Sindamor Pandaturion [remove -remove- to reply] ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Not half through yet" Date: 14 Jun 2002 06:50:50 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 36 Message-ID: <922D51809praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1024037450 5785741 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88999 Nastał dzień 14 cze 2002, gdy Steuard Jensen był łaskaw napisać: >I've just (re)read the scene in "Many Meetings" where Gandalf looks >closely at Frodo as he is recovering from the Morgul-knife. We read >that > > to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it > were of transparency, about him... > > "Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not > half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even > Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a > glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." > I always thought it referred to him becoming transparent as an effect of becoming a wraith... this caused by interaction between the effect of Morgul blade (which he will never be cured fully of, as we know) and bearing of the Ring, and hardships of voyage... and I guess Gandalf indeed knew that Frodo will go, but it had nothing to do with abuse of Frodo's free will - Gandalf could just foretell that Frodo will choose so, knowing him well, and knowing the power of the Ring... -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Not half through yet" Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:54:28 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89007 Steuard Jensen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I think I've assumed he was >thinking of the quest, but I find it a bit surprising that Gandalf is >so certain that Frodo will continue as Ringbearer in the next stage. Really? Gandalf was already of the opinion that the Ring had to be destroyed, and he knew that he could not take the Ring from Frodo; therefore Frodo would have to be the one to destroy it. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Not half through yet" Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:08:35 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 72 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89010 Steuard Jensen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > If Gandalf _was_ confident that Frodo would >remain Ringbearer, does that have any implications about Frodo's >freedom to choose at the Council? Sure -- Frodo could have volunteered, or not. (As C.S. Lewis says of his god's foreknowledge, "Seeing someone do something is not the same as making him do it.") But I think there is a subtle difference here (aside from the fact that Gandalf was not a god, which is not subtle at all :-). Gandalf _knew_ that the task belonged to Frodo, that it was Frodo's duty to do. He _hoped_ that Frodo would do that duty. > Did Gandalf have any sort of backup >plan there, in case Frodo didn't speak up? I don't know. This is like asking how Gandalf expected to get into Mordor with Frodo and Sam and perhaps other members of the Company. Not only does JRRT not tell us, I don't think he himself ever considered making the plot go any other way. (I may have to eat those words; I'm currently beating my way through HoME VI which I think has earlier versions of the Council of Elrond.) But I think Elrond and Gandalf may have stage-managed the Council. Bilbo put his finger on it: the only real purpose of the Council was to decide who would go to destroy the Ring. (And actually Elrond named seven of the Nine Walkers only weeks later, with help from Gandalf.) In that case, what need for all the talk-talk about the history of the Ring and so forth? To convince the representatives of the Free Peoples that the Ring could not be used or even kept and must be destroyed -- and to convince Frodo that _he_ must do it. There's a technique we learn in teaching: wait to get the answer from students. The guideline, after asking the class a question, is to count to ten before answering it: to a teacher the silence seems to stretch endlessly. But it's effective: often students are reluctant to speak but will eventually do so just to break the silence. Perhaps Elrond and Gandalf were using this technique on Frodo: "No one answered [Bilbo's question of who would go]. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, ..." Note that I said "may" a few paragraphs earlier. I am not at all certain of my conclusion, though it does seem like an appealing bit of theater. > And how honest, then, was >Elrond's rhetorical question about the importance of hobbits, "Who of >all the Wise could have foreseen it?" If we quote a bit more context I think it answers your question: "Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?" -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <922D51809praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> Subject: Re: "Not half through yet" Lines: 73 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.130.21.179 Message-ID: <3d09fc2a$3@news.wineasy.se> Date: 14 Jun 2002 15:22:34 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1024064554 212.130.21.179 (14 Jun 2002 15:22:34 +0100) X-Complaints-To: abuse@songnetworks.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88978 "Pradera" wrote in message news:922D51809praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4... > Nastał dzień 14 cze 2002, gdy Steuard Jensen był łaskaw napisać: > > >I've just (re)read the scene in "Many Meetings" where Gandalf looks > >closely at Frodo as he is recovering from the Morgul-knife. We read > >that > > > > to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it > > were of transparency, about him... > > > > "Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not > > half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even > > Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a > > glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." > > I always thought it referred to him becoming transparent as an effect of > becoming a wraith... this caused by interaction between the effect of > Morgul blade (which he will never be cured fully of, as we know) and > bearing of the Ring, and hardships of voyage... I have always understood this on the background of Frodo's vision of Glorfindel at the Ford. Somehow by being wounded with the Morgul-knife and wearing the One Ring, Frodo has gained some (probably 'small' if this is quantifiable at all) presence in the unseen world, and therefore Gandalf detects this hint of transparency and guess that he will have some semblance to the 'light' of the Elves in the unseen world for those that can see into this world - not as bright as that of Glorfindel probably, but still present. > and I guess Gandalf indeed knew that Frodo will go, but it had nothing to > do with abuse of Frodo's free will - Gandalf could just foretell that Frodo > will choose so, knowing him well, and knowing the power of the Ring... I don't think he _knew_ as such, but I'm sure that he had some hunch or premonition of it. Gandalf is known to act or speak on such intuitions (or whatever you will call it) - e.g. his bad feelings about (then) Bilbo's 'ring' or his certainty that some other power played a part in Bilbo finding it. In this particular case, though, I believe that he refers to the transparency as 'that' which 'must be expected' and this leads me to believe that the rest - 'not half through yet' - refers to Frodo's recovery from the wounding, but I also think that his musing about to what Frodo would come in the end is at least partially inspired by some sort of hunch about Frodo's importance if nothing else. Reading this again - now - I come in doubt as well. Had the paragraph ended after 'not half through yet' I think it would have been clear that Gandalf was thinking of Frodo's recovery, but adding the rest of the paragraph seems to shift the time-frame and the focus beyond the mere recovery. I really don't know ... Maybe we're seeing Gandalf changing focus as well from Frodo's immediate situation to a longer perspective - maybe we even 'observe' one of the moments when he gets one of his premonitions? There's a lot of maybes in this, but I can't get any closer right now. -- Troels Forchhammer Please reply to (t.forch@mail.dk) People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid. Soren Kierkegaard ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Not half through yet" Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:46:09 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 49 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89004 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:aidO8.89$U4.13662@news.uchicago.edu... > I've just (re)read the scene in "Many Meetings" where Gandalf looks > closely at Frodo as he is recovering from the Morgul-knife. We read > that > > to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it > were of transparency, about him... > > "Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not > half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even > Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a > glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." > > When I read this, it occurred to me that I wasn't sure what exactly > Gandalf meant. In particular, when Gandalf says, "He is not half > through yet," what is he thinking of? I think I've assumed he was > thinking of the quest, but I find it a bit surprising that Gandalf is > so certain that Frodo will continue as Ringbearer in the next stage. > If not the quest, though, what else could he mean? It would seem > quite odd for this to refer to the progress of Frodo's recovery from > the Morgul-knife. In either case, what does Gandalf have in mind as > the cause of Frodo's eventual "glassiness"? Just the knife, or the > combined effect of future adventures as yet unknown? > > A couple more thoughts on the possibility that Gandalf was referring > to Frodo's longer quest. where in that passage does it even imply that Gandalf assumes that Frodo will be the Ringbearer? this is how i have always read the following passages: "transparency" as the after effects of the wound almost turning Frodo into a Wraith. "half through yet" as recovery from the wound "Not to evil, I think" this is important. Gandalf at this point had doubts as to whether Frodo would become EVIL or not because of the wound. "for eyes to see that can" as people of a higher stature. i.e.: Elves, Wizards, Aragorn type Men. just my take on it. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Not half through yet" Date: 14 Jun 2002 22:11:36 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 62 Message-ID: <6uptythb7r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1024085496 675 10.0.3.2 (14 Jun 2002 20:11:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2002 20:11:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89015 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > "Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not > half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even > Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a > glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." > > If not the quest, though, what else could he mean? It would seem > quite odd for this to refer to the progress of Frodo's recovery from > the Morgul-knife. Why odd? IIRC that sequence refers to some effect that shows how Frodo is still not recovered. I have allways taken that to refer to half through recovery (or at least as much as he will recover). > In either case, what does Gandalf have in mind as > the cause of Frodo's eventual "glassiness"? Just the knife, or the > combined effect of future adventures as yet unknown? IMHO the knife, or more precisely having partially entered the wraith world. We know that full wraiths are invisible to normal eyes and in some way "visible" to those that can see. So what does an part wraith and then partially back look like? Still/again solid to normal eyes, but overlayed with an weak wraithy image for those that see. Assuming that wraiths do not look solid, but rather translucent to those, Frodo may look a bit translucent. And brightness from the inside is documented for Glorfindel. Actually I regard this as an nice look into how Tolkien saw the wraith world. Most likely why I did not mind the "Frodovision" in the film (at least optically, the sound effect was awfull). > plan there, in case Frodo didn't speak up? And how honest, then, was > Elrond's rhetorical question about the importance of hobbits, "Who of > all the Wise could have foreseen it?" Forsight does not only require knowledge of hobbits, but also realisation that they would be important. Perhaps Elrond was referring to the time before the part the hobbits will play became vsible to the wise, who seem to have an somewhat limited distance of forsight (the big fore-seer or fore-planner is after all Eru, Elves and Ainur often only get to see things when they are "appriopriate"). > At any rate, I'm interested to know what other peoples' impressions of > that passage have been. > Steuard Jensen For once I am capable of helping one of the experts. :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: RoRowe501@netscape.net (RoRowe) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Not half through yet" Date: 14 Jun 2002 15:10:18 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 69 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.206.187.62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024092618 12971 127.0.0.1 (14 Jun 2002 22:10:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2002 22:10:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89029 > to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it > were of transparency, about him... > > "Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not > half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even > Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a > glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." > > When I read this, it occurred to me that I wasn't sure what exactly > Gandalf meant. In particular, when Gandalf says, "He is not half > through yet," what is he thinking of? I think I've assumed he was > thinking of the quest, but I find it a bit surprising that Gandalf is > so certain that Frodo will continue as Ringbearer in the next stage. > If not the quest, though, what else could he mean? It is possible that Gandalf was referring to Frodo's mortal life. Frodo is 50 at this time, maybe a bit less than half of the lifespan of a hobbit. Also, Frodo did not age as a result of being in possession of the ring for the last 20 years. It would seem > quite odd for this to refer to the progress of Frodo's recovery from > the Morgul-knife. In either case, what does Gandalf have in mind as > the cause of Frodo's eventual "glassiness"? Just the knife, or the > combined effect of future adventures as yet unknown? I always thought Gandalf was referring to Frodo's recovery from the effects of the Morgul-knife. When Gandalf spoke here, I don't think either Elrond or Gandalf were sure what to expect. Elrond, as I recall, had limited experience with hobbits at this time. Frodo's physical recovery was probably no longer in doubt, but his progression toward wraithness was anyone's guess. Another passage comes to my mind. It's in the Something and Stewed Rabbit chapter in TT, just before Sam and Frodo meet up with Faramir. Sam looks at Frodo while Frodo is sleeping and thinks he looks a bit transparent. Or it may be a comment about an "elvish quality". I don't think this is probative of our current discussion, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. > > A couple more thoughts on the possibility that Gandalf was referring > to Frodo's longer quest. If Gandalf _was_ confident that Frodo would > remain Ringbearer, does that have any implications about Frodo's > freedom to choose at the Council? Did Gandalf have any sort of backup > plan there, in case Frodo didn't speak up? I don't think it occurred to Gandalf that Frodo might not accept the quest. And how honest, then, was > Elrond's rhetorical question about the importance of hobbits, "Who of > all the Wise could have foreseen it?" (I have a mental image of > Gandalf and Elrond plotting together ahead of time, coming up with > ways to prod or shame Frodo into "volunteering" at the crucial > time. :) ). I don't think so. It would do no good for the Counsel to appoint the quest to Frodo if he were unwilling. I think Elrond's "Who of all the Wise" statement was a bit of theater used to dramatize an important moment. I think Elrond wanted to impress upon all those present that this was the climax of the Counsel and the most important decision to be made in Middle-Earth. I think Elrond was seeking a unanimous decision (or at least a consensus) on Frodo being appointed as Ringbearer. In this case, Frodo was to be appointed, not only by Gandalf and Elrond, but by all those present. There. I've done it. I've disagreed with Steuard. But, all in good fun. ;-) RR ###### Message-ID: <3D0BF391.931C77DE@acm.org> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:10:32 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Not half through yet" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.75 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1024243443 10216 207.199.164.75 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89098 Steuard Jensen wrote: > ... I find it a bit surprising that Gandalf is > so certain that Frodo will continue as Ringbearer in the next stage. > If not the quest, though, what else could he mean? I don't think he was certain Frodo would continue the quest. However, he was certain that the Ring would not let Frodo go easily. He may have had a pretty good idea - or hope - that Frodo would continue. Whether Frodo continued as Ringbearer or tried to give over the quest to somebody else, he was not half through yet with his connection with the Ring. > ... does that have any implications about Frodo's > freedom to choose at the Council? Frodo's refusal was very possible. So, no it doesn't. > ... And how honest, then, was > Elrond's rhetorical question about the importance of hobbits, "Who of > all the Wise could have foreseen it?" There are at least three answers: It was no more honest than many rhetorical questions, whose purpose is to point out something the asker wants others to recognize rather than to literally ask what the question seems to ask. We commonly understand a rhetorical question to be a dramatic device, and don't demand the same kind of honesty of it that we demand of statements of fact. Tolkien provides other examples of rhetorical questions or musings by Gandalf when it is clear that, taken literally, he surely knows better. It was honest because Elrond knew the question has this literal answer: Gandalf could have forseen it. It was honest because Elrond has just experienced an epiphany and a new level of understanding about hobbits. He thought he knew them, having known Bilbo. Frodo suddenly reveals layers and depths that Elrond had not previously recognized. Elrond's question expresses his surprise that he was just surprised by a hobbit. He may be a loremaster, but he can also be blinded by elvish hubris. Elrond is honest enough to admit that he had overlooked much that was right under his nose (literally, for the time Bilbo was living in his house). "Who of all the Wise", I think, mostly refers with deliberate irony to Elrond. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org