Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Flood at the Ford X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 70 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1024026636 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:50:36 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:50:36 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: gKdO8-18273-U4-13600@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 975ba604 82b58fc7 e90eb080 b4e0a1eb e2e48333 Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:50:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88994 I was thinking about the flood of the Bruinen that saves Frodo from the Ringwraiths. We all know the basics [from "Many Meetings"]: [Glorfindel] knew that a flood would come down, if the Riders tried to cross... and "Elrond commanded [the flood]," answered Gandalf. "The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own... For a moment I was afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood would get out of hand and wash you all away. Now, this is all fine, but I've started to wonder what _exactly_ triggered the flood. There seem to be several possibilities, and none are entirely satisfying. It could have been an "automated" response, with the river set to flood on its own if it ever felt evil enter it? That really doesn't seem consistent with the wording of Gandalf's comments: Elrond's control sounds very active to me. It also sounds like Gandalf (at least) was quite aware of all that was going on at the time, aware enough to worry that the flood was stronger than they had intended. In addition, any sort of "automated" response runs into problems of defining "evil": would the Mouth of Sauron have set off a flood? Would a passing troll or orc? A warg? Would there be a flood if one of Saruman's spying _crebain_ landed on the bank for a drink? Would Gollum be washed away? Would Wormtongue? Would Boromir? It all seems very ambiguous. On the other hand, there are difficulties (or at least, interesting questions) with the idea of an "active" trigger as well. First of all, Elrond and Gandalf were not present at the Ford: we read that after Glorfindel, Aragorn, and the hobbits found Frodo unconscious on the bank of the river, "Elrond's folk met them, carrying [Frodo] slowly towards Rivendell." If Elrond and Gandalf had been present, they would almost certainly have gone to help Frodo immediately, in person. However, if they weren't actually present, how did Elrond and Gandalf know that it was time to trigger the flood? And, for that matter, how did they command and control it from such a distance? I can imagine that Elrond might "feel" the presence of a truly evil thing in his river, but how did Gandalf know the Nazgul were there in time to help? For that matter, how did they know they'd even be awake when the Nazgul came? (I suppose the same "feeling" as above could have awakened Elrond, but Gandalf is still a question.) Even that's not the full extent of the difficulty. It seems fairly clear that Elrond and Gandalf actually knew at least some of the details of what was happening at the Ford. Gandalf's worry that the flood had turned out too strong indicates that he had some feedback on its progress. Also, the timing of the flood ended up being pretty important: it would have been useless or worse, for example, if one of the Nazgul had entered the Ford before Frodo while trying to cut him off. For that matter, it's a good thing the Nazgul weren't a little closer on Frodo's heels, or else Frodo would have been washed away along with them no matter how small the flood had been. The only way to avoid these sorts of problems would be for Elrond to actually watch what was going on (in some way) and time the flood accordingly. But how could he see things from a distance? He certainly didn't have a palantir! Anyway, I'll be interested to see if anyone out there has a good answer to this puzzle. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: 14 Jun 2002 06:52:09 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 20 Message-ID: <922D566E9praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1024037529 5785741 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89001 Nastał dzień 14 cze 2002, gdy Steuard Jensen był łaskaw napisać: >Anyway, I'll be interested to see if anyone out there has a good >answer to this puzzle. :) It was Liv Tyler's seductive power :) -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### From: "Mike" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:50:49 -0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.222.165.10 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1024055447 24.222.165.10 (Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:50:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:50:47 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88987 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:gKdO8.92$U4.13748@news.uchicago.edu... > I was thinking about the flood of the Bruinen that saves Frodo from > the Ringwraiths. We all know the basics [from "Many Meetings"]: > > [Glorfindel] knew that a flood would come down, if the Riders tried > to cross... > > and > > "Elrond commanded [the flood]," answered Gandalf. "The river of > this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he > has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the > Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may > say so, I added a few touches of my own... For a moment I was > afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood > would get out of hand and wash you all away. > > Now, this is all fine, but I've started to wonder what _exactly_ > triggered the flood. There seem to be several possibilities, and none > are entirely satisfying. Maybe they added their collective wills to the river at some point. Kind of like how Morgoth tossed his will around all over the place. Therefore the river had somewhat of a life of it's own, parts of Elrond and a little bit of Gandalf. -Mike ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:49:17 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: res-46-136.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1024059023 23847 192.168.46.136 (14 Jun 2002 12:50:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2002 12:50:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88998 In article , Steuard Jensen (sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu) says... > I was thinking about the flood of the Bruinen that saves Frodo from > the Ringwraiths. We all know the basics [from "Many Meetings"]: > > [Glorfindel] knew that a flood would come down, if the Riders tried > to cross... > > and > > "Elrond commanded [the flood]," answered Gandalf. "The river of > this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he > has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the > Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may > say so, I added a few touches of my own... For a moment I was > afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood > would get out of hand and wash you all away. > > Now, this is all fine, but I've started to wonder what _exactly_ > triggered the flood. There seem to be several possibilities, and none > are entirely satisfying. > The only way > to avoid these sorts of problems would be for Elrond to actually watch > what was going on (in some way) and time the flood accordingly. But > how could he see things from a distance? He certainly didn't have a > palantir! > > Anyway, I'll be interested to see if anyone out there has a good > answer to this puzzle. :) I had always assumed that Elrond was watching it too. However, since in the absence of any known mystical item, I had imagined Elrond being located somewhere which provided a view of the Ford. I'm not particularly knowledgable (there's an understatement) about the layout of Rivendell, but is it possible that somewhere in, or near, Rivendell afforded a view of the Ford? -- Donald Shepherd The closest I came to perfection was when I wrote my Resume. ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:11:17 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89006 Steuard Jensen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >The only way >to avoid these sorts of problems would be for Elrond to actually watch >what was going on (in some way) and time the flood accordingly. But >how could he see things from a distance? He certainly didn't have a >palantir! It's even worse than that. Water does not flow instantaneously from one point to another. (The village of Marathon is about 11 miles downstream from Cortland, and it gets flooding a _day_ after the river crests in Cortland.) So Elrond would have had to release the waters a precise amount of time _before_ the first Ringwraiths rode into the Ford. Even a bit too early and it would have washed Frodo away. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: 14 Jun 2002 13:15:57 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 21 Message-ID: <922D91456praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <922D566E9praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> <3D09A050.A96D11C0@MOVEcgey.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1024060557 5785741 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89000 Nastał dzień 14 cze 2002, gdy Kristian Damm Jensen był łaskaw napisać: >> It was Liv Tyler's seductive power :) > >Her what? > Oh sorry that should have been ;) not :) -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### From: "Foo Fighter" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:18:36 +0200 Organization: HThinet Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: as5-m57.net.hinet.hr X-Trace: as201.hinet.hr 1024060604 245051 195.29.100.57 (14 Jun 2002 13:16:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hinet.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:16:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!teaser.fr!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-hub.siol.net!news1.hinet.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:88980 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:gKdO8.92$U4.13748@news.uchicago.edu... > I was thinking about the flood of the Bruinen that saves Frodo from > the Ringwraiths. We all know the basics [from "Many Meetings"]: Or it was just an ordinary dam that was raised when Ringwraiths stepped in? :) FF ###### From: dre1@cornell.edu (Doug Elrod) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:29:07 -0400 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 25 Sender: dre1@cornell.invalid (on csic13.cogstud.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: csic13.cogstud.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1024068394 704 128.253.36.150 (14 Jun 2002 15:26:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2002 15:26:34 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!dre1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89013 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > Anyway, I'll be interested to see if anyone out there has a good > answer to this puzzle. :) And don't forget the question of whether his Elven Ring, Vilya, was involved. I'm guessing *yes*, given that the other known "place of protection", Lorien, was ruled by Galadriel, who had Nenya. We are told that these Rings are "not idle"; it makes sense to me that part of their task was protecting these refuges. If Nenya is involved, that might help answer your questions. Given that Galadriel was not physically present at the borders of Lorien, but she knows who passes them, that may be part of the powers of the Rings. So Elrond might *not* need to be at a Ford overlook. One support of this is that Gandalf helped intensify the flood, and we know he has the third Ring, Narya. And if the flood were "supernaturally" caused, that potentially eliminates some of the physical constraints. The water could have flowed one direction, then another, like an agitator in a washer, perhaps, if that were required :-) -Doug Elrod (dre1@cornell.edu) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: 14 Jun 2002 22:47:54 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 92 Message-ID: <6un0txh9j9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1024087674 711 10.0.3.2 (14 Jun 2002 20:47:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2002 20:47:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89016 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > [Glorfindel] knew that a flood would come down, if the Riders tried > to cross... Knows that Elrond has such an ability? Already seen it done before? > "Elrond commanded [the flood]," answered Gandalf. "The river of > this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he > has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the > > It could have been an "automated" response, with the river set to Unlikely, because a) Tolkien is no fan of automatons, b) the dark side does such things (called traps). Every trap brings danger of hitting the wrong one (even if only as collateral damage). The dark side couldn't care less of such (its only lost minions), but Elrond surely would. > In addition, any sort of "automated" response runs into problems of > defining "evil": would the Mouth of Sauron have set off a flood? Not to mention, what constitutes "great need". That surely requires human/elven conciousness. > On the other hand, there are difficulties (or at least, interesting > questions) with the idea of an "active" trigger as well. First of > all, Elrond and Gandalf were not present at the Ford: No need for presence. Just for knowing what is happening there and being able to trigger. I am not present in your computer, but I am triggering letters on its screen, and know what you typed (at least a while ago). Just substitute magic for Usenet. This is fitting with the low key magic of ME. > However, if they weren't actually present, how did Elrond and Gandalf > know that it was time to trigger the flood? And, for that matter, how > did they command and control it from such a distance? Magic. I read the "under his power" that he has extended part of his self into the river (and most likely the entire surrounding of Rivendell). A small version of the "Melkor/Morgoth in matter" thing, but less for dominance and more for defence. > river, but how did Gandalf know the Nazgul were there in time to help? Read/felt Elronds mind. In magic/paranormsl circles there exists the notion that having any personal relationship with an other establishes a (telepahic?) bond consisting of an exchange of part of ones person. I assume this to derived from mythology, and so the same source fantasy comes from. Tolkien surely knew of such notions. Ideal to add a bit of mystery to the text. This part was after all first written in the early LoTR = Hobbit-2 phase. Elrond was still the "hobbitish" elf then. > Even that's not the full extent of the difficulty. It seems fairly > clear that Elrond and Gandalf actually knew at least some of the > details of what was happening at the Ford. Some Elrond/Glorfindel link? Also been together quite a time. > to avoid these sorts of problems would be for Elrond to actually watch > what was going on (in some way) and time the flood accordingly. But > how could he see things from a distance? Replace "see" with "feel". We know that the elves with their entire ring project were into controlling (and that requires feedbacK) of the material world around them. > Anyway, I'll be interested to see if anyone out there has a good > answer to this puzzle. :) It is ME, an deliberately mythological world, not todays world of physics. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford References: Reply-To: spam@nospam.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:47:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89028 I think the answer to the problem of the flood at the ford is pretty simple, in my mind at least. To me it is obvious that Elrond, Glorifindel and Gandalf had foreseen that the Nazgul would attempt to capture the Ringbearer before he got to Imaldris. Since Elrond commanded the river, he already had the ability to raise it into a flood. Thus they likely came up with the plan to cause the flood if the Nazgul attempted to cross it. Thus, Glorifindel would known that the Nazgul entering the river would have brought on the flood. As to the awareness of when the Nazgul entered, I don't think it is such a leap to believe that he would be aware of what was transpiring at the fords without being their. I am also assuming that Gandalf would have this knowledge. When the Nazgul entered the water, Elrond was aware and unleashed the flood. Glorifindel, being party to this plan, and seeing that it was almost certain that the Nazgul would cross the fords to capture the Ringbearer, would have known what was about to occur. -- AC "For a politician to complain about the press is like a ship's captain complaining about the sea." - Enoch Powell ###### From: Donald Shepherd Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:00:32 +1000 Organization: Sad Fuckers of the World Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <6un0txh9j9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-46-136.emmanuel.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1024099301 8426 192.168.46.136 (15 Jun 2002 00:01:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2002 00:01:41 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Virus: I am a header virus. Please add me to your headers. X-Ignore-Godwin: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89052 In article <6un0txh9j9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) says... > Just substitute magic for Usenet. This thought seems excessively worrying to me... -- *Dlanod*, *the* *Sparkly* *Nazgul* Pimp of Morgoth, Worshipper of Arwen Lune, Rider of Ducks Usenet: accept no substitutes. ###### From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Lines: 39 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <7gJO8.23094$bP.3013144667@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.64.65 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1024155779 ST000 64.252.64.65 (Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:42:59 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:42:59 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: TSU[@SREZZWCRVPXN[OX_TDB[X_LPO@FCIXNMRQIMASJETAANVW[AKWZE\]^XQWIGNE_[EBL@^_\^JOCQ^RSNVLGTFTKHTXHHP[NB\_C@\SD@EP_[KCXX__AGDDEKGFNB\ZOKLRNCY_CGG[RHT_UN@C_BSY\G__IJIX_PLSA[CCFAULEY\FL\VLGANTQQ]FN Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:42:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!opentransit.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89032 Steuard Jensen wrote ... >Now, this is all fine, but I've started to wonder what _exactly_ >triggered the flood. There seem to be several possibilities, and none >are entirely satisfying. I broadly agree with Neil Franklin on this one, in that telepathy offers a reasonable explanation for what happened. We know from RotK that telepathy is possible for the wise. When Glorfindel meets the Hobbits on the road, knowing the Nazgul are around, he could probably communicate this to Elrond and Galndalf (or just Elrond and Elrond could tell Gandalf, if Glorfindel didn't know where Gandalf was). When Frodo makes his dash for the Ford, Glorfindel, following behind, could presumably observe and communicate directions to Elrond. This would allow Elrond to time the flood quite accurately. This solution also addresses a number of other problems that were brought up. To answer Stan's point about the need for the flood to start quite some time before the Nazgul set foot in the water; Elrond could start the flood as soon as he hears from Glorfindel that the hobbits are on their way. Since he has such control of the river he should be able to control the rate of flow, slowing it down or speeding it up as needed while Glorfindel reports his position. At the end, Elrond could have held the flood behind a 'dam of magic' (for lack of a better expression) just a small distance from the ford until precisely the right moment. As to why Elrond didn't show up with his people to meet Frodo, it could be that Elrond had to stay in Rivendell, either becase that was the center of his power and he needed all the power he had to control the river or because he had to stay somewhere where Glorfindel could contact him. He might have sent some of his people out sooner than he could go himself because he had to stay in Rivendell. There are some problems with this solution of course but I think that it could be at least part of the answer. Trade. ###### Lines: 3 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 15 Jun 2002 22:38:23 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Message-ID: <20020615183823.03232.00000325@mb-fn.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89078 ObInfinity in a computer: I made the obvious mistake; I should have specified -infinity. ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 18:55:56 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89094 AC wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >When the Nazgul entered the water, Elrond was aware and unleashed the flood. But by the time the flood waters got from wherever they were pent up to the Ford, the Nazgűl would long have crossed through. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: 15 Jun 2002 23:03:14 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 27 Message-ID: <922FBC1Apraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1024182194 6661439 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-x2.support.nl!psinet-eu-nl!eusc.inter.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89086 Nastał dzień 16 cze 2002, gdy Stan Brown był łaskaw napisać: >>When the Nazgul entered the water, Elrond was aware and unleashed the >>flood. > >But by the time the flood waters got from wherever they were pent up >to the Ford, the Nazgűl would long have crossed through. > How do you know where they were pent up? How do you know they were pent up? And also, how do you know they _needed_ to be pent up earlier? I'm very much inclined to the 'Moses crossing the Red Sea' model here: sudden burst of water in one moment, and then falling on the Riders in another. (another pebble for those 'Bible conotations' guys) -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 21:22:59 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <922FBC1Apraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 49 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89096 Pradera wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Nastał dzień 16 cze 2002, gdy Stan Brown był łaskaw napisać: > >>>When the Nazgul entered the water, Elrond was aware and unleashed the >>>flood. >> >>But by the time the flood waters got from wherever they were pent up >>to the Ford, the Nazgűl would long have crossed through. >> >How do you know where they were pent up? I don't. But they were clearly some distance upstream, since no wall of water was visible until after the first Nazgűl entered the stream. >How do you know they were pent up? Well, the water had to come from _somewhere_. Note Gandalf's comment "There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains." That certainly seems to rule out the idea that the water was just manufactured on the spot. So the water had to come from _somewhere_ upstream. We don't know how far upstream, but upstream. And Elrond had to release it _before_ the Nazgűl rode into the Ford, so that it would overcome the Nazgűl just at the exact right moment. >And also, how do you know they _needed_ to be pent up earlier? Because Gandalf implied as much, and also because it was real water, not "magic" water. It washed the Nazgűl cloak downstream, for one thing. >I'm very much inclined to the 'Moses crossing the Red Sea' model here: >sudden burst of water in one moment, But the Moses legend did not create water out of nowhere either. It simply moved pre-existing water around. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford References: Reply-To: spam@nospam.com Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@randori.com - Please include ALL headers only, thanks. Organization: Randori News - http://www.randori.com - Try our FREE Usenet Scanner! Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 02:16:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89090 In article , Stan Brown wrote: > AC wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>When the Nazgul entered the water, Elrond was aware and unleashed the flood. > > But by the time the flood waters got from wherever they were pent up > to the Ford, the Nazgűl would long have crossed through. Yes, I realize that under *normal* circumstances, the flood waters would have taken time. However, the fact that Elrond could be at some distance and detect the Nazgul tells me that the scene doesn't necessarily have to bear a perfect resemblence to proper hydrology. It is possible that the flood was generated very close (within a few hundred feet) of the fords. -- AC ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: 16 Jun 2002 08:33:59 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 61 Message-ID: <922F6C3DCpraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <922FBC1Apraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1024216439 7414005 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89089 Nastał dzień 16 cze 2002, gdy Stan Brown był łaskaw napisać: >Pradera wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Nastał dzień 16 cze 2002, gdy Stan Brown był łaskaw napisać: >>How do you know they were pent up? > >Well, the water had to come from _somewhere_. Note Gandalf's comment >"There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows >of the Misty Mountains." That certainly seems to rule out the idea >that the water was just manufactured on the spot. I'm pretty sure this can be read metaphorically. The Bruinen itself is 'the waters that comes down from Misty Mountains', not particularly _those_ waters that attack the Nazgul. > >So the water had to come from _somewhere_ upstream. We don't know >how far upstream, but upstream. And Elrond had to release it >_before_ the Nazgűl rode into the Ford, so that it would overcome >the Nazgűl just at the exact right moment. > 'Dimly Frodo saw the river below him rise, and down along its course there came a plumed cavalry of waves.' I think it can also be read my way (and I think it more plausible, taking into account all you've said about telepathy and future-seeing): the waters rose in one point, and fell on another. >>And also, how do you know they _needed_ to be pent up earlier? > >Because Gandalf implied as much, and also because it was real water, >not "magic" water. It washed the Nazgűl cloak downstream, for one >thing. > I did not say it was a magic water. It was a normal water, but magically 'enhanced', so to speak. >>I'm very much inclined to the 'Moses crossing the Red Sea' model here: >>sudden burst of water in one moment, > >But the Moses legend did not create water out of nowhere either. It >simply moved pre-existing water around. > Same thing here. Power of Elrond/Glorfindel/Gandalf gathered the waters of Bruinen in one point and thrusted it to another. I can see it quite clearly now. It's like splashing in the pool, or something - you make a great wave of water in the very place you're standing, not gather it for some time before. -- Pradera 'An ideal country should have japanese culture, dutch laws, american economy and irish pubs' --- ###### From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.69.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1024244207 ST000 64.252.69.12 (Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:16:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:16:47 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: O@XMR]GDTRUSP_PXKBNXKQ@@AZJDB\XILA]T]_MIJQR@EPIB_VUKAH_[MTX\IS[K[NGYJJFNOFZR_G[BUNTAOQLFE^TEHRPI]PZZRP_BMDSFQFL_]CBHXRWCMDCUZAZN@D_AKMNLEI]MWHCSXL^]NNC__CZFGSGHYYXWPFG@SCAVA]\FT\@B\RDGENSUQS^M Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 16:16:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!oleane.net!oleane!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89074 AC wrote in message ... >In Stan Brown wrote: >> AC wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>When the Nazgul entered the water, Elrond was aware and unleashed the flood. >> >> But by the time the flood waters got from wherever they were pent up >> to the Ford, the Nazgűl would long have crossed through. > >Yes, I realize that under *normal* circumstances, the flood waters would >have taken time. However, the fact that Elrond could be at some distance >and detect the Nazgul tells me that the scene doesn't necessarily have to >bear a perfect resemblence to proper hydrology. It is possible that the >flood was generated very close (within a few hundred feet) of the fords. Or it could be that the flood was generated several days ago when Elrond thought it might become necessary and just held back, a few hundred feet from the ford, for hours or even days until precisely the right moment. We don't know too much about the geography of the area. The wall of water could well have been hidden around a bend, behind dense trees etc. Trade. ###### From: pradera@pradera.prv.pl (Pradera) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: 16 Jun 2002 19:31:57 GMT Organization: Pradera Lines: 26 Message-ID: <922FDC001praderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> References: <3D0CE457.280C7C19@ThisIsFake.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 42-moo-3.acn.waw.pl (62.121.78.42) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1024255917 7377782 62.121.78.42 (16 [146550]) User-Agent: Xnews/03.09.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!42-moo-3.acn.waw.PL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89127 Nastał dzień 16 cze 2002, gdy Troels Forchhammer był łaskaw napisać: >I further do not find it incredible that Elrond would have some sort >of scrying device similar in function to Galadriel's mirror, perhaps - >or maybe capable of showing only the present. One must not forget that Elrond was close friends with all those crafty Noldor from Eregion (Celebrimbor included) - it's not hard to believe that one of them crafted some sort of palantir-like 'device' for Elrond. Vilya enhancing it also, no doubt. I agree with the further part of your post. Does a fountain require gathering amount of water somewhere before the burst to work? No it doesn't, it just needs some bursting power. Same thing here. -- Pradera Hear words of truth: www.infidelguy.com --- ###### From: Bagronk the Happy Orc Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:12:26 +0200 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.254.137.114 X-Trace: 17 Jun 2002 14:11:54 +0200, 145.254.137.114 Lines: 18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-ip.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.arcor-ip.de!news.arcor-ip.de!145.254.137.114 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89136 I found some words from "TradeSurplus" in my phone cable... > Or it could be that the flood was generated several days ago when Elrond > thought it might become necessary and just held back, a few hundred feet > from the ford, for hours or even days until precisely the right moment. We > don't know too much about the geography of the area. The wall of water could > well have been hidden around a bend, behind dense trees etc. But this would require an enourmous exactness and strength of control over the flood. I doubt that Elrond would be able to maintain this force anyway, and certainly not for several days. For even Gandalf (as he tells Frodo afterwards) fears for one moment that they had unleashed too much power, and the flood slipped out of control - that doesn't sound like a controlled and directed wave. -- Bagronk the Happy Orc Uruk Revolutionary Socialist Movement ###### From: Bagronk the Happy Orc Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:27:37 +0200 Message-ID: <4ikrgu8jtdfsl1ajl9uq6avls99p73fumf@4ax.com> References: <3D0CE457.280C7C19@ThisIsFake.dk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.254.130.251 X-Trace: 17 Jun 2002 14:27:05 +0200, 145.254.130.251 Lines: 29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-ip.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.arcor-ip.de!news.arcor-ip.de!145.254.130.251 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89143 I found some words from Troels Forchhammer in my phone cable... > (snip) I don't think we should look for dammed up water - I rather > believe that the water is already in the river - Elrond and Gandalf > 'merely' concentrates a larger amount of that water in one place - > maybe even expanding it - Frodo's vision mentions white riders > and white horses, which to me indicates that foam was an > integral part of the entire flood - the true amount of extra water > was probably minimal, most of the effect being achieved by > making the water foam and circulate very fast. I completely agree with that. I don't even think that a huge mass of water would be required. The Nazgul disliked flowing water and surely didn't feel too secure in it. Even if that didn't count, in a ford a horse can't stand too securely .There may be some slippy moss or alga, the pebbles are round from the flowing water, and if the water is stirred up, you can't exactly see the ground your horse is walking on. In this situation, perhaps only a minor push is required - by whirling foam, by little waves, by a sudden wind - and your horse may slip, and you're landing in the water. Add the psychological moment, all these white riders storming towards you (the Nazgul were certainly not immune to fear, and neither were their horses), and it becomes really impossible to stay on the back of one's horses. So we simply don't have the _need_ for a big tsunami. -- Bagronk the Happy Orc Uruk Rev ###### From: at_nihil@hotmail.com (nihil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: 17 Jun 2002 07:33:12 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 47 Message-ID: <5d5a7abb.0206170633.402ea18f@posting.google.com> References: <922FBC1Apraderapraderaprvpl@130.133.1.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.207.234.65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024324393 14766 127.0.0.1 (17 Jun 2002 14:33:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2002 14:33:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89139 qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:... > Well, the water had to come from _somewhere_. Note Gandalf's comment > "There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows > of the Misty Mountains." That certainly seems to rule out the idea > that the water was just manufactured on the spot. I dont see why. I also dont see why the water had to just "appear". The flood is obviously not the normal amount of vigour, and it obviously didn't come down from the Misty Mountains. > So the water had to come from _somewhere_ upstream. We don't know > how far upstream, but upstream. And Elrond had to release it > _before_ the Nazgűl rode into the Ford, so that it would overcome > the Nazgűl just at the exact right moment. Here, perhaps, is the problem. A flood like this does not have to be a flood as we now know it. Its possible to cause a flood without gathering or collecting water at all. You just have to release your notion of it being a true increase in water flow. Its easy to demonstrate too, though you might get hurt: Wait for a rainy day. Find a gutter with a nice steady and deep flow of water (preferably doing its nice river-like laminar flow thing). Drop something heavy and somewhat large, like a nearby friend, into the center of the flow. The energy of your friend striking the mini-river will create an initial catastrophic splash which is mostly due to the scale of the impact, but as a secondary effect it will push a nice high wave down the mini-river. This is exactly the type of wave perfect for unhorsing itty-bitty horseman. If we scale it up a bit, it works just as well on bigger horsemen. It would require much less (proportionally) energy (ie: No atomic blast needed, probably something equivalent to several large boulders dropping into the river). Furthermore, it has just the characteristics everyone wants: Its initially rather violent (not the splash from your friend, but the big wave he generated -- I suggest not dropping women into a gutter; they dont like that). Its rather immediate. It's short lived, allowing the water to return to normal shortly afterwards. And its effects dissipate quickly as it goes downriver, preventing other people from being hurt in the wrath of a full flood. Now. Exactly how you generate the downward (or upward) thrust needed can be declared "magic". The same effect can happen just by pushing a section of water forward faster than the water ahead of it. The water will pile up forming a wall. You dont really have to "store" or "gather" water, though that is another possibility. ###### Lines: 5 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 18 Jun 2002 04:43:25 GMT References: <20020615183823.03232.00000325@mb-fn.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Message-ID: <20020618004325.03215.00000854@mb-fn.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89175 >I should have specified -infinity The first bit of a number is usually the signed or unsigned portion. That is, with 8 bits, signed, you get -128 to 127, with 1111 1111 as -128, and 0111 1111 as +127. ###### From: Lord Jubjub Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Organization: Land of Storm and Chaos References: <7gJO8.23094$bP.3013144667@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "ua3is=>0]J2[+"*Cg)=i[Q:LX=cv.xg444m7P$:_QCX5Ae2~+bd^d<(~X>P0h hs?}Mj@|zEBML Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:03:28 -0500 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.40.239.164 X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 1024185078 216.40.239.164 (15 Jun 2002 18:51:18 -0500) Lines: 50 X-Authenticated-User: psiemens Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!newsa.ev1.net!jubjub Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89259 In article <7gJO8.23094$bP.3013144667@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com>, "TradeSurplus" wrote: > Steuard Jensen wrote ... > >Now, this is all fine, but I've started to wonder what _exactly_ > >triggered the flood. There seem to be several possibilities, and none > >are entirely satisfying. > > I broadly agree with Neil Franklin on this one, in that telepathy offers a > reasonable explanation for what happened. We know from RotK that telepathy > is possible for the wise. When Glorfindel meets the Hobbits on the road, > knowing the Nazgul are around, he could probably communicate this to Elrond > and Galndalf (or just Elrond and Elrond could tell Gandalf, if Glorfindel > didn't know where Gandalf was). > When Frodo makes his dash for the Ford, Glorfindel, following behind, could > presumably observe and communicate directions to Elrond. This would allow > Elrond to time the flood quite accurately. > > This solution also addresses a number of other problems that were brought > up. To answer Stan's point about the need for the flood to start quite some > time before the Nazgul set foot in the water; Elrond could start the flood > as soon as he hears from Glorfindel that the hobbits are on their way. Since > he has such control of the river he should be able to control the rate of > flow, slowing it down or speeding it up as needed while Glorfindel reports > his position. At the end, Elrond could have held the flood behind a 'dam of > magic' (for lack of a better expression) just a small distance from the ford > until precisely the right moment. > > As to why Elrond didn't show up with his people to meet Frodo, it could be > that Elrond had to stay in Rivendell, either becase that was the center of > his power and he needed all the power he had to control the river or because > he had to stay somewhere where Glorfindel could contact him. He might have > sent some of his people out sooner than he could go himself because he had > to stay in Rivendell. > > There are some problems with this solution of course but I think that it > could be at least part of the answer. > That would, in fact. be my answer as well. Elrond would have absolute knowledge of ANYTHING that entered the ford due to the power of the ring. He would have collected the flood and 'dammed' it just above the flood. As soon as he sense the Nazgul enter the the water (and was sure Frodo was clear of the flood), he would release the waters. Unfortunately, Gandelf used his ring to enhance the flood and nearly drowned Frodo in the process. -- Lord Jubjub Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe, Prince of the Slithy Toves, Leader of the raths, Keeper of the Bandersnatch ###### Lines: 10 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: wilbur07@aol.com (Mark Constantino) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 21 Jun 2002 07:12:07 GMT References: <20020618004325.03215.00000854@mb-fn.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Message-ID: <20020621031207.07746.00001664@mb-ft.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89319 >The first bit of a number is usually the signed or unsigned portion. That >is, >with 8 bits, signed, you get -128 to 127, with 1111 1111 as -128, and 0111 >1111 >as +127. - of course being the sigil of Satan & Crew, + being the sigil of car number 54. South Carolina, ain't no fina! ###### From: "TradeSurplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Lines: 37 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.73.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1024765260 ST000 64.252.73.29 (Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:01:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:01:00 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: T[OYRY[E]JVOBFD[@JJLNQMAPJYREUDKFA_J]Q]KEYUNDQUCCNSUAACY@L[ZX__HGFD]JBJNSFXTOOGA_VWY^_HG@FW_HUTHOH]TBPGCO\P^PLP^@[GLHUK@WLECKFVL^TYG[@RMWQXIWM[SDDYWNLG_G[_BWUCHFY_Y@AS@Q[B\APPF@DCZM_PG_VSCPQZM Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 17:01:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!isdnet!skynet.be!skynet.be!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89364 Bagronk the Happy Orc wrote in message ... >I found some words from "TradeSurplus" in >my phone cable... >> Or it could be that the flood was generated several days ago when Elrond >> thought it might become necessary and just held back, a few hundred feet >> from the ford, for hours or even days until precisely the right moment. We >> don't know too much about the geography of the area. The wall of water could >> well have been hidden around a bend, behind dense trees etc. > >But this would require an enourmous exactness and strength of control >over the flood. I doubt that Elrond would be able to maintain this >force anyway, and certainly not for several days. We don't really know how much control Elrond had over the river so it is possible that he could have held it for several days. More likely, I admit, is that he merely guessed the approximate time it would be needed, releasing it several days before from the mountains, and so only needed to hold it for a short while to make the timing exact. Assuming that he could communicate with Glorfindel, he could have allowed the flood to move faster or slower in order to get the timing right. >For even Gandalf (as >he tells Frodo afterwards) fears for one moment that they had >unleashed too much power, and the flood slipped out of control - that >doesn't sound like a controlled and directed wave. It could well have slipped out of control if he had been damming it up for a few hours so when he finally unleashed it, all the water was released together, making a much bigger flood than wold have occured if there had been no dam. That kind of sudden release would surely be hard to control. Trade. ###### From: qx1741@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Flood at the Ford Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 16:39:43 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:89378 TradeSurplus wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >We don't really know how much control Elrond had over the river so it is >possible that he could have held it for several days. Bringing new meaning to the common phrase, "Hold your water!"